Tendo City

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/02/28/pledge...index.html

Quote:Court refuses to reconsider Pledge decision

SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- A federal appeals court Friday rejected the Bush administration's request to reconsider its decision that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional because of the phrase "under God."

One more step for sanity in politics... its unfortunate that it'll almost certainly be overturned by the conservative Supreme Court, though. I don't see how there is any way that making students listen to (and in some cases say) 'Under God' every day in school doesn't break the 'No Religion in Government' thing... I'd say the same thing about 'In God We Trust' on our money, too...

I think the pledge should be altered slightly to remove that. I dont think the entire nation should be represented by anything with any religious element, whether it be christian, muslim, or pagan.

For that matter, why should we be forced to spend money with the phrase "in God we trust" printed on it? /sarcasm

My main issue with the pledge is that you are forcing people to take a pledge. That should be something people choose to do freely, or there is no meaning behind it.

Just to clarify, the seperation of church and state doesn't mean religion isn't allowed to influence those in power so much as that those in power aren't allowed to force the religion on the masses. A public official who publicly supports one religion is NOT a bad thing. A public official who derides those who don't support that religion is. Oh, and don't get into some huge stupidity about how one person supporting something is making someone feel bad for not agreeing with it, because that's quite possibly the stupidest thing in the world. Hey, I never once had a single interest in any sports teams or pep rallies when I was a kid, but at the same time I never once felt like I was being persecuted just because they HAD pep rallies. "Left out of the group"? Sure, that's a fact, but why on Earth should I be pandered to for something like that? It's not persecution just because a large number of people happen to be in a group that I by my own choice have left myself out of.

What I don't understand is why liberal whiners think it's so terrible that they might have to see or hear the name of God. Why does that offend you? You don't believe in Him, perhaps?

Tough shit. Most people here do. There's no reason whatsoever we should change anything just because a few stupid atheists with far too much time on their hands wants to mold America into their own image. If they don't want to believe in God, that's fine. Do what they will. But don't fuck it up for the rest of us. I dislike Rap immensely. I think it's patently terrible noise and there's a lot that offends me. Yet I don't call for it to be banned. Since I hate it so much, I don't listen to it. Take a clue, sweethearts.

It's going to be overturned (again), thankfully. Maybe they'll get a fucking clue and spend their time doing something worthwhile, like joining those stupid sons of bitches going to Iraq and volunteering to be human shields.

To prove that my claim on atheistforums.org is legitimate, I, Ryantology, have edited this post, which I could not do unless it was my own account.

Quote:Originally posted by Dark Jaguar
It's not persecution just because a large number of people happen to be in a group that I by my own choice have left myself out of.

Yes it is. Religion is like being gay, it's genetic and you're born with it, thus you can't make choices.

Oh right, religion, or at least the need, IS genetic. I think I remember some giant white dome with a million eyes saying something about that...

And if I EVER find out God doesn't exist I shall make Him myself, from legos and duct tape!

I don't understand why so many people seem to have some kind of need or something for religion... it doesn't make sense to me. No, I don't believe in god and I never have... I don't understand how people can believe that some kind of omnicient being exists somewhere and made the earth or something. It just doesn't make any logical sense.

Anyway... religion is fine as long as it stays out of the government. Schools are part of the government. Children shouldn't be forced to hear or say something they don't believe in every day... I know it always annoyed me that that line was in the Pledge. I just tried to ignore it and not say it, but I can certainly see how it'd be more annoying than that for some people.

Its just a few words that the Pledge would be better without. I don't see why forcing religion on people who don't want it is alright, especially in schools.

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
I don't understand how people can believe that some kind of omnicient being exists somewhere

OB1 doesn't exist?

if beliving in god is so unrealistic.
Then personally how did time start?
Why did we even evolve and not remain useless goo.
why do we have color when we dont really need it to live nore do we need taste , but it is there too.In my personal opinion someone thought we would enjoy it that way and designed us that way.
People believe in god is not becuase there crazy whackos with no common sense , People need a purpose to exist and go beyond the imperfect futile efforts of humans quest for happiness , when we can have it now.

as for the pledge of allegiance yah it should be removed , It is not right for even creationist since not everyone belives the same thing.Pressuring people to do so is not right.

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
I don't understand why so many people seem to have some kind of need or something for religion... it doesn't make sense to me. No, I don't believe in god and I never have... I don't understand how people can believe that some kind of omnicient being exists somewhere and made the earth or something. It just doesn't make any logical sense.

Anyway... religion is fine as long as it stays out of the government. Schools are part of the government. Children shouldn't be forced to hear or say something they don't believe in every day... I know it always annoyed me that that line was in the Pledge. I just tried to ignore it and not say it, but I can certainly see how it'd be more annoying than that for some people.

Its just a few words that the Pledge would be better without. I don't see why forcing religion on people who don't want it is alright, especially in schools.

In real life, you have to hear a lot of things you don't like and you don't believe. Why should we have to remove every single thing that just might offend someone? That's a pointless exercise and not at all indicative of sanity. You're never forced to speak the pledge, I knew kids growing up who would not because of God being mentioned, but that's how it should be: They refuse to say it. Case closed. Their parents didn't bitch and moan about it.

Regardless, removing two words from the Pledge is just a waste of time and money. People should, instead of worrying that two kids in a class of 30 might be offended by God (and it's their parents of course that are always offended, never the kids) be worried that schools are overcrowded and that curriculums are increasingly poor.

Good to see a few atheists have their priorities in order.

Quote:Originally posted by Private Hudson
OB1 doesn't exist?

Even though that was meant to be sarcastic, you're right!

You don't exist? Eh, I figured as much... Now then, go back into the offline personas before I gots ta shove you back there, with pills!

I totaly agree with weltall.
there better things to worry about today!

then a pointless debate about two words on a pledge.
After all nobody fusses over religous programing such as touch by an angel or better yet saying merry christmas!

how many of these people that whine about the pledge take part in christmas?why isnt anybody stoping schools from having christmas activties?

Indeed, hardly a threat to freedom. I myself always just stood and said nothing when I was younger, that changed eventually when I actually wanted to make such a pledge, but in most schools you are allowed to just not say anything. People don't have the right to not hear stuff that offends them. They only have the right to not care or listen to it.

Quote:how many of these people that whine about the pledge take part in christmas?why isnt anybody stoping schools from having christmas activties?

Because Christmas isn't exactly a religous holiday anymore, maybe?

Oh sure it is. If it wasn't then those of the Jewish faith would have no reason not to join in.

...other than seven days of presents beats just one.

So uh, religion. I say religion is just man's way of deciding what God, or Nature, or whatever deity (or the lack of) likes. But that's a different debate.

I don't usually say the Pledge because I'm not sure if I want to pledge my allegiance to THIS United States; maybe another one, not this one. But I think it's a fine thing to have. Maybe they shouldn't be indoctrinating it in the youth at such a young age, but if you're going to have a government you might as well brainwash the youth.

You all do know the "under God" thing was an addition, right? Okay, just checking.

Haha, talk with any Jewish kid and compare what you got and you will see that seven days of presents is a SERIOUS misconception. While the Chrismas parents are giving their kids 6 ponies, SIX, the Hanachanacha kids are getting erasers, and notebooks, and pencils, and it's a frickin' back to school holiday! Not only that, look at any neighboring house with the candles being lit on the manora or whatever that thing is called. After 3 days it's like "okay enough is enough". Let's not forget that with the 7 days thing comes a sad realization, that's 7 presents total because that's all they get each day. Compare that to most kids getting like 10 presents to 15 on Christmas day, and good ones that aren't utilitarian in the slightest, and you see that it's all just a sham.

In conclusion, it's a fact. Christmas is great, Hannakah SUCKS!

Hannukah, of course, is only a major holiday because Jewish kids wanted presents like Christians got... and since christmas presents are a relatively recent thing, so is Hannukah as a holiday that matters...

Oh, and Christmas isn't exactly religious because Santa and presents don't necessarially have religous connotations...

Sure they do, just analyze them! Santa giving everyone a free gift regardless of if they deserve it, you don't see the religious connotations in that? Well, there is the version of Santa that checks for naughty or niceness, but he's the robot one...

Santa = 3 wise men
Gifts = the gifts that the wise men gave Jesus

The connotations are fairly obvious.

Um, that's a different one, but all's good. Just remember that the three wise men did not in fact visit the manger. They came several months later and visited them elsewhere. I forget the details, but there are a total of 4 different accounts of Jesus' life in the Bible, all 4 right after the other as the first 4 parts of the New Testement. Give it a read.

I prefer my analogy, which means it's BETTER! :D

No! They visited the manger!

And then they had a twister pool party (3 DIMENSIONAL TWISTER - UNDERWATER [or in outer space, but that's hardly practical]) and ate Weiners til their foreheads caved in from all the pressure (somebody drew a Left Foot - Red dot, and went too deep in his attempts to achieve it!!!)

Well, at least it's how it goes in MY Bible.

Stupid Gideons. :(

Oh, you can make those connections... its just that with the commercialization of christmas, they've lost some of their meaning...

Anyway, I think that it is the case that schools can't force people to do christmas things and must provide alternatives for people who don't want to do that stuff... as with any religous-based stuff they do in school...

But the Pledge is different. You say it (or listen to it) every morning, every day for at least 12 years... thats a lot, and while you don't have to say it you certainly have to listen.

I already stated that you don't have the right to not hear stuff that offends you. You don't have to believe it, you don't have to pay attention. You may have to be there and hear it, but you don't have to listen (you do realize that hearing and listening are two different things, listening being the one where you comprehend it). Oh, and don't get into some stupid subconcious thing. Like I said, I had to be in those pep rallies every single year, but it's not like they committed some horrible sin by forcing something I didn't believe in on me. They just did it and I happened to be there and couldn't leave in any practical manner.

Wait, to save a handful of non-Christian children the unspeakable horror of hearing the word "God", you would instead force your atheistic beliefs on everyone? Hello Anyone home, McFly?

There's a good related article I read in the Washington Post today. A girl who plays basketball in high school (can't remember where, unfortunately) disagreed with President Bush's Iraq policy. So to show her distaste for that, when the national anthem is played at games, she turns her back to the flag and looks at the ground.

Now, I hardly condone showing disrespect to my country because I don't agree with it's leader, I still loved America even when Bill Clinton was making a laughingstock of it, but she has been taking flak from people about that. Now, even though I totally disagree with what she's doing, I fully support it. Why?

Because she isn't trying to force that on anyone else. She turns her back on the flag, but does nothing else. She doesn't try to tell everyone to follow her example. She's not fighting to have the national anthem removed from sporting events at her school. She keeps her convictions personal because it is she who does not agree with Bush.

I think the rest of you should take an hint: If you don't like it, do what you want. But if you try to enforce your belief on everyone else, are you any better than the system you're demonizing?

But the whole reason that 'Under God' was added to the Pledge in the '50s was to try to get more kids to believe... thus doing what you claim you don't want -- enforcing their beliefs on others...

Oh, and of course freedom of expression should be fully protected. For example, not too long ago some white supremacists had a rally in Lewiston (Me.)... and while I don't agree with them on anything, I certainly support their right to express their opinions as long as it doesn't actively hurt anyone...

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
But the whole reason that 'Under God' was added to the Pledge in the '50s was to try to get more kids to believe... thus doing what you claim you don't want -- enforcing their beliefs on others...

Oh, and of course freedom of expression should be fully protected. For example, not too long ago some white supremacists had a rally in Lewiston (Me.)... and while I don't agree with them on anything, I certainly support their right to express their opinions as long as it doesn't actively hurt anyone...

Does it really matter either way? What do kids do during the pledge other than replace America with Africa to be funny, or make fart noises?

Anyway, is it really forcing beliefs on people when almost all of them believe it to begin with? It was believed then that making kids more religious would help them to behave better, and that works to a certain degree. In all honesty I would've rather they never added it in the first place because then this wouldn't be an issue, but since it's there, I want it to stay if for no other reason than to spite the atheists who so rabidly want everyone to conform to their lack of belief. I also think God's inclusion in the pledge, regardless of it's origins fifty years ago, today is benign and harmless. There's no good reason for His name not to be there.

If it offends the Non-Christian/Liberal Christian to have "under God" in the pledge, don't you think it offends the Christians to hear "God" and "Jesus Christ" and all the other profanity in school countless times? Why don't we just censor everything?

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Hannukah, of course, is only a major holiday because Jewish kids wanted presents like Christians got... and since christmas presents are a relatively recent thing, so is Hannukah as a holiday that matters...

Oh, and Christmas isn't exactly religious because Santa and presents don't necessarially have religous connotations...

But Santa Claus isn't real. Jesus Christ was, and it's his holiday (regardless of the fact that no one knew the exact date and that it almost certainly wasn't in December). The holiday season in general may be secular, which is why liberals want everyone to wish each other "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", but Christmas, by it's very name, is a religious holiday.

Personally, I tell everyone "Merry Christmas", and I don't care if I'm talking to a Jew or Muslim or Atheist or whatever. If it offends you, you need to get over yourself, because that's not the intent. Same goes for the Pledge of Allegiance's mention of God.

Yeah, the intent was never to brainwash or insult, it was intended to spread joy that statement there!

Christmas, of course, is only a holiday in late December because the early Christians needed a holiday at the same time as the big Roman holiday of Saturnalia to help draw in more people... not for any religous reasons.

And you're right, no one has any idea when Jesus was born.

Yes it's quite well known that Christmas was invented by early Christians for the purpose of being able to have a holiday without drawing suspicion, or fire :D.

I'm just pointing out that while they made it religous, at its heart its not... the religous part was made to fit the holiday, not the other way around... so its not exaclty a religous holiday.

And these days with the amount of commercialization christmas has...

It was originally a religious holiday, but for a different religion. It's meaning has totally changed over the years, but hey so what? Christians are like the Borg sometimes. We absorb other culture's uniqueness into our own.

Quote:So uh, religion. I say religion is just man's way of deciding what God, or Nature, or whatever deity (or the lack of) likes.

Good stuff.

So if they take "under God" out of the pledge, what happens if you say it anyway? You'll probably get suspended or expelled. So in order to protect someone's rights you destroy someone elses. Why don't we just officially proclaim ourselves to be a wishy washy, arrogant country and get it over with. If you believe in anything you are a hateful, untolerant bigot. I would rather have our country turn away from God completely than to perform this disgusting dance. It's better to be hot or cold than lukewarm, trust me on that. Things will turn around eventually, but I don't know how far down we will sink before it happens.

Either way, I'm going to send my kids to a Christian school. I'll pay up the ying yang for it- but my kids will get a much better education and the many benefits greatly outweigh the monetary cost. Thankfully, because CS makes a lot of money, I will probably be in a position to do this, but I know a lot of people who can't afford to pay for their kids to attend 2 schools at the same time.

Quote:Christians are like the Borg sometimes. We absorb other culture's uniqueness into our own.

Well, the only real Christian culture would be Jewish, right? Jesus was a Jew, and he followed the Jewish celebrations such as Passover. But he taught that it's not about what you do, where you live, or what culture you have. I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here, and this is not directed at DJ. I'm just taking the opportunity... Most likely I will kill the topic, that usually happens whenever I post something like this. But this is too important.

What people usually think of as Christianity is just Western culture religion. And look at WhiteFleck's quote to see what I think about religion. Religion is a way to make rules that hold people down in continual condemnation. Religion says that if you are good enough you can be saved. Religion is changed and warped to defend evil actions by evil people. Horrible atrocities have been committed in Jesus' name by people wanting some way to justify their actions. They claimed his name but in fact never knew him.

Jesus was a rebel. Jesus would probably not be allowed in many churches today. The Jewish leaders were hypocrytes who lorded their power and position over everyone else. They were judgemental, condemning, and corrupt. Sound familiar? I know that's exactly how people think of Christians today. And you know, it's not an unfounded observation. Jesus, on the other hand, served the rejects and outcasts. He befriended the drunkards, prostitutes and other "evil sinners". He cared about and loved them when nobody else did. Who needs a doctor, someone who is sick or someone who is healthy? Who needs love more than someone who is alone and broken? These people were not good enough to be loved even by their neighbors. But God loved them anyway. No one is good enough- we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, who is perfect. But it doesn't matter because God loves us and died for us anyway.

For this to make sense you have to understand that God is like a father. I know almost none of us have kids, but this will make sense when you do. Try to imagine though. When you are holding your newborn for the first time, you will love that baby more than you ever knew you could love. You would be willing to give your life for your kid instantly. And what has this baby done for you to earn your love? Absolutely nothing. But you won't care about pesky little details like that- because this is your baby. That's the way God sees us. All he wants is to have a relationship with us. All he wants is to save us from the trouble, pain, and sorrow we get ourselves into. And he wanted it so much that he left paradise behind, lived on this screwed up planet for 33 years going through all the pain that we go through, and eventually even died a horible death. All just so he could fill that emptiness in your heart. All just so he could love us. That, my friend's, is what this is all about.

Haha, exactly right. I agree completely with what you said. I'll say my little comment was made as a joke more than anything. I don't even have anything to add or subtract or change from that. You made the point I would have made quite well enough. My thoughts == your thoughts on this matter.

And now some rambling nonsense brought to you by Ubernastram!

the king of Mars perfects his commentary skills
I'm a gold plated man monkey full of dollar bills
if you're happier, dial 1 now

don't be fooled by gravity
and don't be like the sun

something went wrong
i hate this song

and if I could change one thing about the weather
well then I would tell the world and I'd become famous
and then I wouldn't need to care about the weather never
ever anymore cuz I would be relaxing in Hawaii

but that is not my fate
I'm trapped inside a cage
it isn't even locked
but I'm an idiot

Caesar was a criminal
but his mother was a saint
some say that it's subliminal
but I say that it ain't

science was a maskerade
meant to sell you lemonade
and it worked
they're laughing in their graves

once again I'm falling
down a mountain like a metaphor
(god damn leprechauns, god damn leprachauns)

shoot me from a cannon to the moon without a helmet on my head
or even oxygen to breath in the offhand chance that there's no air

air is like a something something
air is like an I don't know
and air is just like fog but it's not gray
and it makes me want to

breath in toxic little fumes and then I
breath out sugar frosted blood
all I ever did to make you laugh was
breath out sugar frosted blood

"what do I do now?
tell me lest I do nothing
guardian devil"

I'd like to make a toast to all the little garden gnomes
who bravely sacrificed their lives for me
I'd like to make a toast but no one seems to have a cup
I wonder where my cup has gone I think that it was taken by

the king of Mars perfects his commentary skills
I'm a gold plated man monkey full of dollar bills
you've been standing there, blocking my view

don't be scared by me or me
and don't be like the sun

because the sun doesn't really exist
it's an illusion
that's why you shouldn't be like the sun
because if you are, you don't exist
and I don't associate with people who don't exist

Quote:Originally posted by Laser Link
Good stuff.

So if they take "under God" out of the pledge, what happens if you say it anyway? You'll probably get suspended or expelled. So in order to protect someone's rights you destroy someone elses. Why don't we just officially proclaim ourselves to be a wishy washy, arrogant country and get it over with. If you believe in anything you are a hateful, untolerant bigot. I would rather have our country turn away from God completely than to perform this disgusting dance. It's better to be hot or cold than lukewarm, trust me on that. Things will turn around eventually, but I don't know how far down we will sink before it happens.

Either way, I'm going to send my kids to a Christian school. I'll pay up the ying yang for it- but my kids will get a much better education and the many benefits greatly outweigh the monetary cost. Thankfully, because CS makes a lot of money, I will probably be in a position to do this, but I know a lot of people who can't afford to pay for their kids to attend 2 schools at the same time.



Well, the only real Christian culture would be Jewish, right? Jesus was a Jew, and he followed the Jewish celebrations such as Passover. But he taught that it's not about what you do, where you live, or what culture you have. I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here, and this is not directed at DJ. I'm just taking the opportunity... Most likely I will kill the topic, that usually happens whenever I post something like this. But this is too important.

What people usually think of as Christianity is just Western culture religion. And look at WhiteFleck's quote to see what I think about religion. Religion is a way to make rules that hold people down in continual condemnation. Religion says that if you are good enough you can be saved. Religion is changed and warped to defend evil actions by evil people. Horrible atrocities have been committed in Jesus' name by people wanting some way to justify their actions. They claimed his name but in fact never knew him.

Jesus was a rebel. Jesus would probably not be allowed in many churches today. The Jewish leaders were hypocrytes who lorded their power and position over everyone else. They were judgemental, condemning, and corrupt. Sound familiar? I know that's exactly how people think of Christians today. And you know, it's not an unfounded observation. Jesus, on the other hand, served the rejects and outcasts. He befriended the drunkards, prostitutes and other "evil sinners". He cared about and loved them when nobody else did. Who needs a doctor, someone who is sick or someone who is healthy? Who needs love more than someone who is alone and broken? These people were not good enough to be loved even by their neighbors. But God loved them anyway. No one is good enough- we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, who is perfect. But it doesn't matter because God loves us and died for us anyway.

For this to make sense you have to understand that God is like a father. I know almost none of us have kids, but this will make sense when you do. Try to imagine though. When you are holding your newborn for the first time, you will love that baby more than you ever knew you could love. You would be willing to give your life for your kid instantly. And what has this baby done for you to earn your love? Absolutely nothing. But you won't care about pesky little details like that- because this is your baby. That's the way God sees us. All he wants is to have a relationship with us. All he wants is to save us from the trouble, pain, and sorrow we get ourselves into. And he wanted it so much that he left paradise behind, lived on this screwed up planet for 33 years going through all the pain that we go through, and eventually even died a horible death. All just so he could fill that emptiness in your heart. All just so he could love us. That, my friend's, is what this is all about.

Bravo! :jesus:

Praise God indeed *plays more Xenosaga*

I better keep two certain personas seperate...

I'd comment, but when people believe as blindly in something as you people clearly do there really isn't a point in trying to include 'sense' or 'reality' in the issue...

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
I'd comment, but when people believe as blindly in something as you people clearly do there really isn't a point in trying to include 'sense' or 'reality' in the issue...

You know, it's funny, because I think the exact same thing when reading a lot of your posts. We're all blind, we're just on different sides.

ABF, the whole point about faith is that it IS blind. When it comes to trusting people, God, and things of a spiritual nature like that, it's down to faith. It's not a practice one should use with every aspect of life of course, but hey, that's the point.

"When we are older you'll understand, it's enough when I say so and maybe some things ARE that simple."

Quote:When we are older you'll understand, it's enough when I say so and maybe some things ARE that simple.

I literally laughed out loud when I read that... really! The whole idea of 'god' is just so utterly abusurd... I see no way anyone can believe in it... except blind faith which, of course, by its very nature refuses to see reality.

Oh, and as for LL's post, I agree with this part, but can't disagree more with the rest of it...

Quote:What people usually think of as Christianity is just Western culture religion. And look at WhiteFleck's quote to see what I think about religion. Religion is a way to make rules that hold people down in continual condemnation. Religion says that if you are good enough you can be saved. Religion is changed and warped to defend evil actions by evil people. Horrible atrocities have been committed in Jesus' name by people wanting some way to justify their actions. They claimed his name but in fact never knew him.

Jesus was a rebel. Jesus would probably not be allowed in many churches today. The Jewish leaders were hypocrytes who lorded their power and position over everyone else. They were judgemental, condemning, and corrupt. Sound familiar? I know that's exactly how people think of Christians today. And you know, it's not an unfounded observation. Jesus, on the other hand, served the rejects and outcasts. He befriended the drunkards, prostitutes and other "evil sinners". He cared about and loved them when nobody else did. Who needs a doctor, someone who is sick or someone who is healthy? Who needs love more than someone who is alone and broken? These people were not good enough to be loved even by their neighbors.

I don't mind religon... if it stays in church. I don't like, for example, when politicians (such as Bush, or Joe Leiberman) constantly invoke god and/or religous phrases in their speeches... I don't like it at all. That should stay elsewhere. It doesn't belong in politics... hence the reason I don't want Leiberman to win the Democratic nomination -- he's both too religous and talks about it too much... his crusade against games and hollywood doesn't help much either, but that isn't the core of the problem.

Quote:You know, it's funny, because I think the exact same thing when reading a lot of your posts. We're all blind, we're just on different sides.

I think that about you... so the feeling's mutual... :)

The reason I often eventually quit these political debates is because the absolutely unchanging back-and forth circular debates just get tiring...

You have blind faith in Saddam. What makes you any better?

Belief in God is more than just blind faith. For me, I believe in God because when I look around, I don't see random nature, I see designs of incredible complexity. I cannot believe that everything I see is the result of a one in a bazillion lucky shot, where ALL the conditions were perfect for Earth to become more than just a barren rock like all it's neighbors, and for one species out of a billion to transcend all others in intelligence and abilities. Believing all that was just a lucky break is what I consider blind faith. To me, the idea that there is no higher power is absurd, and in my opinion atheists like to think this because the thought of there being a power greater than themselves terrifies them.

Congrats, you laughed at a line from the Kingdom Hearts main song!

Programs don't just happen, it takes a programmer. The universe seems to be just a very complex program.

ABF, I'm not blind. I've been on both sides of this. I know it's easier to think of me as an ignorant fool and say I'm just weak and have to imagine some God to deal with the world. It's not something I haven't heard before. :) But it's simply not true. I could do real well by myself, I have all the tools and abilities needed to succeed. The truth is I could care less about the world's version of success.

I could tell you about miracles I've seen and experienced. I could point out tons of historical facts that prove the Bible is true. And I could argue till we are both blue in the face, but I know it won't make a difference right now. I don't think you want to search for truth, it seems like you just want to argue.

But maybe that will change someday. When you find yourself hurting and you wonder what life is all about, maybe you'll remember something I said. I was at that place a while ago, and I didn't want to go on with life. It seemed worthless. But that was when God became real and not just an impersonal ruling diety. I realized for the first time that I was not alone.

The only reason I'm even saying this is because you guys are my friends. I'm not trying to meet a quota or win brownie points at church. And I hate debating and arguing, so that's why I used to stay out of these conversations as much as I could. I am not good with words and I can't convey my thoughts very well. I'm a math person, not a communication person, and it's hard for me to do this. But I don't care about what's comfortable for me anymore, and I know what I need to do. I know that life is empty without God, and I want you all to experience how life was meant to be. We were meant to live for so much more.

When you encouraged me to play StarCraft, were you getting a commission from Blizzard? No, of course not! The only reason you did it is because you knew I was missing out on something good. I only talk about God because I don't want you guys to miss out on something so much better than a game.

Wowie wow wow!

My past is different regarding this. I used to be a person who believed, everything at the same time actually. I was all like "well ya never know" and such, afraid my kidneys were going to be stolen by aliens working for Satan. Essentially, my past self was an utter idiot. That was me, I have full rights to call that line of thinking idiotic because I thought it once! Eventually, the fact of what faith truly is dawned on me. You see, I was afraid only believing in one thing was just illogical, so I just said "all or nothing" out of fear, and bought it all. I was simply too afraid to put real faith in one thing, that being that by putting it into one thing I do not believe in all other things contradicting it. Fear prevented that choice up until a certain point. I finally realized that "faith" is not attempting to cross ALL the bridges I see at once, out of fear of choosing one that is broken and no longer being able to get to the right one, it's the opposite, picking JUST one and going with it, no matter what. Faith has some exclusionarity to it. One may call that closed minded, but I would say the way I used to think was far more closed minded because I closed myself off from believing any one thing out of fear of missing out on the rest (the only reason of course for that fear would be thinking every single thing I had believed in easily could be wrong, which of course means I never really believed in any of it). So, via a process I can't really fully explain, I chose to put all my faith into one thing. It's worked out fine so far, mainly because it's right :D. My reason for the faith is the amazing simple and clean and perfect design of the universe. It just feels like a program. There's that and all other religions seem to be based on works, whereas this one is based purely on faith, works being done because you WANT to (the proof of it) not because they are needed. All others require you to obtain perfection, when logically a single act of wrongness makes you imperfect. Perfection takes into account all past acts, logically. That's the "reason for the faith" anyway, though as I've said, faith is faith. You don't KNOW, you are simply willing to believe in that, and that alone, as the way. Oh, and may I point out it's more than just "knowing it's true". It's faith as in being in battle and putting your trust into the ally guarding your back, and acting with that in mind not even turning around knowing that it's safe back there thanks to the ally. It's more than knowing the roller coaster is safe, it's getting on.

Okay, enough from me. I've made my point, which as I said seems to be in total agreement with LL here. Well, I would have said "Couldn't care less" since "could care less" means you care more than the minimal amount you are capable of.

The only other thing isn't quite related to this. I myself am horrible at communication too. I do love logic though (language helps convey it, but logic isn't language dependant). I've always enjoyed a good debate (well, good ones), though as a result of that tendancy I've gotten into some stupid arguments, as you have noticed. I'm trying to fight that. In any case, my love of logic is why I love programming. Math is LL's love it seems, but logic is mine. I say if you are going to get into a career you must love at least one aspect of the core work of it. LL likes the math, I like the logic (of course, math is based on logical principles, and so I'm obviously trying to get into math and actually enjoy it too). I wouldn't suggest trying to be a programmer if you don't like either one of those "core aspects". You may find it very boring indeed otherwise.

if the universe was bound by logic then logically it wouldnt exist.
somthing that has no begining yet no end is imposible... yet it exist.If you have faith in luck then you mst also except god existence is a posibility.



P.S 8 days till suddam gets a scud up his ass!

Very true DJ. You can't absolutely prove anything. There has to be an assumption at some point.

Actually, I don't really like math, I just seem to be good at it. It's a curse. I tell ya. I think that is mostly just from taking a lot of it too. I'm wired in a math/logic/science kind of way, but I'll never do math for the sake of doing math. I want to use what I learn for something useful, not just to learn something new- that's what seperates a scientist from an engineer. And computer science is a lame term because it is completely an engineering field. Oh well.

Ack... long posts defending religion... hard to read all of without thinking "that is so dumb" all the time...

Sorry, its true...

As for church itsself, as I've said, I have no problem with church... as I've said here before, I went to church (Unitarian Universalist... :) ) until I graduated from highschool. Perfect religion for a atheist because you don't have to believe in anything spiritual...

Most of religion seems to be in how you grew up. If you grew up in a really religous family chances are you will eventually end up religious yourself... and same for the other way around. The views in my family were pretty much the opposite of yours (LL, DJ, Weltall, etc) so I am the way I am and you're like that...

Belief is exactly that -- belief. It usually doesn't include proof... or it includes "proof" that isn't. Religion has a whole lot of both.

One interesting thing is how as technology advances necessarially retreats -- like how over time beliefs change and doctrine slowly accepts "heretical" ideas... teh world isn't the center of the universe? Absurd! God doesn't live on the clouds? Silly! There aren't caverns under the earth literally filled with the burning people in Hell? Hah! And that's just the really old ones... once they were sure that Jerusalem was in the center of the (flat) world too...

Now of course the issues are evolution and the creation of the world... and many religous types have admitted the scientific evidence in favor of those things are so strong that they'll have to (or have) retreat/retreated there too...

Now of course its "well God created the matter that then exploded to form the universe because who knows how the universe was in whatever it was before the Big Bang happened? Well that (or any position I just mentioned) is just silly. We don't know now how that happened... but we may eventually and you can be sure that it won't be a "miracle". There is always a better scientific explanation that actually is sane.

Its called SCIENCE. It explains things. Is it perfect? Obviously not. But its always getting better... and we're in a time where we can see scientific progress yearly. While that hasn't made religion obsolete (unfortunately), it has helped to make it at least pretend to try to deal with the real world in some way... they can (and do) fight it kicking and screaming, but in the end it'll be forced to change.

Just like it always has in the past. Religion is by its very nature close minded... and not all of that will ever go away. But at least over time it'll be forced to slowly open up... but still religon continues to be a haven for the unsure and the people who need to believe in something intangible to be able to function in the confusing world.

In short its a security blanket... and provides about as much (lack of) protection to the person when truly exposed to the truthipped away... though the usual result is ignoring the point.

Its the only way for religious people to survive as religous... because if you really listened to sense and the real world it'd be impossible to be that way...