Tendo City

Do we really have any proof that Bin Laden exists? He could be a fabrication made up by terrorists to act as unifying point and everything he supposedly planned was just made up by other people. Or maybe 9/11 is just a fabrication made up by our minds. Maybe everything that has happened has all been fabricated by my mind and I'm the only thing that really exists...Alright I'll stop now. :)

Ever wonderd of Bush is really Bush? Not some duplicate.......

No... what? I don't have the real Dubya tied up in my basement, wha? No! No... what?

If you believe in something as radical as an invisible man that once took the form of a man who died for relatively immoral acts commited by one particular species and grants others eternal life for accepting his forgiveness, I think you should be ready with an explanation. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe, nor am I berating you for having that faith (although I can't help but poke fun ;)), but really, it's enough to make an outsider curious.

Truth be told "If I don't see it, it doesn't exist" is, applied to amost anything, a completely ridiculous explanation. That was the reason given as to why people thought the world was flat, and why the sun orbited the earth, among thousands of other misconceptions.

We can't prove God exists, just as people couldn't prove the world was round or that the earth orbits the sun for most of human history. Christians believe someday that He will prove it himself, and only He Himself CAN prove it.

Why doesn't He? That's not my problem. It'll happen when it happens.

See, the thing is, when you say that a belief that has lasted the entirety of civilized man is false, the burden of proof is upon the skeptic. That's the way it works.

So with that in mind, can any of you give any sort of factual proof that God is fake?

Quote:So with that in mind, can any of you give any sort of factual proof that God is fake?

We've been over this question 50 times... and not gotten anywhere...

Need I repeat my self AGAIN? I don't see why I should.

And its not "if I don't see it it doesn't exist". Its "if no one sees it and no one sees any direct physical effects coming from it it doesn't exist. Big difference.

See, the thing is, when you say that a belief that has lasted the entirety of civilized man is false, the burden of proof is upon the skeptic. That's the way it works.

What belief are you talking about, Christianity or religion in general? Religion is what, 5,000 years old? Christianity is only a little over 2,000 years old. In fact, using your same logic, since judaism is older than christianity, it must be more truthful too.

So with that in mind, can any of you give any sort of factual proof that God is fake?

You think that what you said has any basis? You can't prove he is real (oh, that's up to HIM to do...) and only common sense can prove he isn't real. How do we know Mickey Mouse isn't a real living being; according to your logic he might be...but some of us just know better.

True, religion is as old as civilized society... I wonder why. Its a interesting question... I guess the old explanation that its the only way they could think of to explain the universe could work... I can't think of a better one offhand...

But we know better now!

You THINK you know better.

But if it's just common sense, why are there about ten thousand times as many Judeo-Christian-Muslims in the world as atheists? By it's very definition, common sense is common. Atheism is anything but common.

Short answer: It's not common sense, it's just an ideology shared by a small, bitter minority who think they're better than everything else, and who aren't satisfied with lacking faith themselves, they wish to remove it from everyone else too. The behavior of our resident atheists in this thread is testament to that.

Oh, that's a very easy question.

TRADITION!

(*tries NOT to think of Fiddler on the Roof song*)

And how many traditions not related to God have survived six thousand years?

As an anser to SJ's question, no. God's power is infinite, so no matter how much you take away, there is still infinite left. That's the tricky part. 2/3 of infinity is still infinity. For that matter, 1/3 of infinity is still infinity. It's like a gun with infinite ammo in a game. You can shoot as much as you want, but there's just as much left after all the shooting as there was before, infinite.

Well, I'm stepping out again. Oh and ABF, ever heard the phrase "pick your battles"? It means that not all challenges to what you believe are worth fighting for. You have to really consider if there is actually a threat or just some minor debate going on. If I was debating lest a new law be passed contrary to what I believe, THAT is worth fighting for. If it's just some person who doesn't believe it, why should I "fight back"? What's the point? I've heard people say "if you don't respond, it means you don't actually believe!" which is STUPID. Why would my beliefs be on THEIR terms? Of course, my beliefs are NOT on other's terms, so why on earth should I suddenly act as though they are? That's a very ridiculous line of reasoning. It's why God doesn't step in and keep eggs from breaking just because some moron says "if this egg I drop breaks, there is no God". Just because they SAY it doesn't make it true. They have no authority to make such declerations.

Quote:Oh and ABF, ever heard the phrase "pick your battles"?

Nope. Never!

Quote: It means that not all challenges to what you believe are worth fighting for. You have to really consider if there is actually a threat or just some minor debate going on. If I was debating lest a new law be passed contrary to what I believe, THAT is worth fighting for. If it's just some person who doesn't believe it, why should I "fight back"? What's the point? I've heard people say "if you don't respond, it means you don't actually believe!" which is STUPID. Why would my beliefs be on THEIR terms? Of course, my beliefs are NOT on other's terms, so why on earth should I suddenly act as though they are? That's a very ridiculous line of reasoning. It's why God doesn't step in and keep eggs from breaking just because some moron says "if this egg I drop breaks, there is no God". Just because they SAY it doesn't make it true. They have no authority to make such declerations.

Well if you actually 'picked battles' and didn't just leave every debate you run across just as it heats up I'd believe you... but you don't (if you don't refuse to participate in the debate at all...)

Oh, and overall its not what other people believe that is what really matters. Its what the DO with those beliefs... and what the people they elect do...

Quote:And how many traditions not related to God have survived six thousand years?

Hmm... the rule of law, leadership, civilization... art forms... written language... spread of technology... other stuff...

Pardon? Well if by "heat up" you mean getting down to stupid name calling and total disrespect for other's points of views, yes I just leave when that happens. And yes, often I do refuse to participate. You seem to think that's actually a bad thing.

On another note, regardless of what you think of me, remember this. "Wisdom even from the mouth of a fool is still wisdom." In this particular case, what I do (or what you think I do) can't really have any effect on the truth of what I said.

You really seem to think the worst sin a person can commit is to not give their opinion. You actually TOLD me you think not sharing one's thoughts is wrong. Yeesh, of course one's actions always reveal how much one believs something, but do you honestly believe that to truly believe something means you ALWAYS fight EVERYONE on something? What a stupid idiotic "slim shady", currenty skinny punk kid, people getting killed for no reason, horrible rude and evil way of thinking! (No offense.) Such a "I'll fight over my opinion at EVERY oppertunity, whether that threat is real or not" mindset is what starts wars and gangs.

What is the point of this debate anyway, if you can call it that? We post why we believe what we do, but you seem to actually want us to change our minds.

Is your goal to get us to change our minds?

Sure, plenty of times I have an opinion on something and don't say anything... well in real life anyway... online's more anonymous and stuff so I don't do that as much online. Not here, anyway.

Not saying something isn't a horrible sin... its just irritating when you know people could contribute to the conversation/argument... this one doesn't exactly qualify for THAT, though. Its not going anywhere... note how we have done nothing but repeat arguments for about 8 pages now? So I could understand leaving in boredom or annoyance or something... it is getting tiring repeating myself...

As for changing anyone's mind I'm not delusional... as I said in page one noone in THIS debate will ever move an inch.

I'm just defending my position... don't want to let the other side win the argument! You don't seem to care to argue, but I do... why do you have some huge aversion to really defending your beliefs or something? Quitting when it gets tough doesn't really count...

Though, I will say something. It seems that often you don't actually quit. You say "I'm quitting!" ... and are back later... what is it, a negociating tactic to get us to give up? :)

Oh, and if you think your side is trying and less hard than we are to change minds you are crazy. Though I'm sure everyone knows it'll never happen.

Yes I know I have trouble actually stopping... Why is it irritating that others don't contribute to a discussion? What's wrong with being the silent type?

Because being silent doesn't get you that far... online, anyway. :)

And this thread proves that pointless arguments can be fun and entertaining!

Er, long and repetitive, maybe...

Quote:As for changing anyone's mind I'm not delusional... as I said in page one noone in THIS debate will ever move an inch.

Now that I can agree with you on. Neither side is convincing the other one, and indeed, this thread is starting to get repetitive. Let's say we call it a day, eh?

...

...

Yeah right. Like this thread is going to quiet down anytime soon.

But if it's just common sense, why are there about ten thousand times as many Judeo-Christian-Muslims in the world as atheists? By it's very definition, common sense is common. Atheism is anything but common.

Again, you're making this an atheist vs. all organized religion war. You cannot do that, because none of those religions are similar in so much as they're one. You're suggesting that they're all credible, honest, true religions, which is impossible, because they all have different beliefs. That just goes to show you how false religion is...like I said, a bunch of bratty children wanting things their own way. A truely honest person who will never lie is about as rare as anything; does that mean it's not better to be truly honest? Ideals aren't always common, and neither is the truth, but that doesn't change what it is.

It's not common sense, it's just an ideology shared by a small, bitter minority who think they're better than everything else, and who aren't satisfied with lacking faith themselves, they wish to remove it from everyone else too.

I'm not sure just why I'm so gung-ho against religion...perhaps because from my perspective, it'd be better for humanity to abandon such an ancient and shallow concept. On the other hand, religion is a fragile fabric which keeps billions of simple-minded idiots happy...they believe that if they sin, they'll be punished by a diety. Maybe that alone merits religion should continue. And I don't think I'm better than anything, I have a VERY low self esteem since my girlfriend dumped me and I was fired from my job 3 months ago, WHICH IS WHY ALL I DO IS COME HERE TO POST!

Quote: religion is a fragile fabric which keeps billions of simple-minded idiots happy

So now every religious person is an idiot? I smell stereotyping. Most religious people believe what they do because they're the beliefs they were taught since birth. Hell, if their parents didn't tell them otherwise, they'd probably still think Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy are real when they grow up.

Quote:a bunch of bratty children wanting things their own way.

If I wrote my religion my way, lying would be okay under certain circumstances, revenge would be acceptable with certain limitations, and humanity wouldn't have to be punished for eating the forbidden fruit when Adam and Eve were the only ones to do that. But I can't have it my way, so I've just accepted what the Bible says. It's like the law: it'd be slightly different if I was in charge, but I'm not, so I'm just going to obey it.

Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
Again, you're making this an atheist vs. all organized religion war. You cannot do that, because none of those religions are similar in so much as they're one. You're suggesting that they're all credible, honest, true religions, which is impossible, because they all have different beliefs. That just goes to show you how false religion is...like I said, a bunch of bratty children wanting things their own way. A truely honest person who will never lie is about as rare as anything; does that mean it's not better to be truly honest? Ideals aren't always common, and neither is the truth, but that doesn't change what it is.

Which is why I only infer Judaism, Christianity and Islam, because even though these three religions have some rather fundamental differences with each other, they are all born from the same root and share many, many common beliefs. I almost never even mention other religions like Hinduism or Shintoism because they have almost nothing in common with the others and therefore I can lend no creedence to them. And I agree on how organized religion often gets messy, but organized religion is a creation of Man. Faith is not. Whatever differences Jews, Christians and Muslims have, we all believe in the same God.

Quote:I'm not sure just why I'm so gung-ho against religion...perhaps because from my perspective, it'd be better for humanity to abandon such an ancient and shallow concept. On the other hand, religion is a fragile fabric which keeps billions of simple-minded idiots happy...they believe that if they sin, they'll be punished by a diety. Maybe that alone merits religion should continue. And I don't think I'm better than anything, I have a VERY low self esteem since my girlfriend dumped me and I was fired from my job 3 months ago, WHICH IS WHY ALL I DO IS COME HERE TO POST!

Well, from my perspective Atheism is a shallow concept that seeks to pacify simple-minded people who want to believe that they are the center of the universe and that there is no higher power than them. To accept Atheism is to believe that there are no consequences for your actions in life. I can see how that might sound liberating to people. Atheism is the easy way out.

Quote:Well, from my perspective Atheism is a shallow concept that seeks to pacify simple-minded people who want to believe that they are the center of the universe and that there is no higher power than them. To accept Atheism is to believe that there are no consequences for your actions in life. I can see how that might sound liberating to people. Atheism is the easy way out.

That is absurd. It does nothing of the sort... I'd think that its more liberating to think that you can live forever... And of course there are consequences for your actions! Just not supernatural ones.

Quote:Which is why I only infer Judaism, Christianity and Islam, because even though these three religions have some rather fundamental differences with each other, they are all born from the same root and share many, many common beliefs. I almost never even mention other religions like Hinduism or Shintoism because they have almost nothing in common with the others and therefore I can lend no creedence to them. And I agree on how organized religion often gets messy, but organized religion is a creation of Man. Faith is not. Whatever differences Jews, Christians and Muslims have, we all believe in the same God.

Everyone thinks their religion is best... and often those religions are very different... so of course all the ones that aren't the one that person x follows are false! Sure makes sense to me...

I don't think my religion is better than everyone else's. It's like I said, I don't know which religion, if any, is right. I respect the beliefs of an atheist because I can't prove that God exists. However, I expect respect for my beliefs too, without having to be stereotyped as some "whiney brat who makes up beliefs just to have things my way, and to provide a comforting blanket from the real world." I know the real world isn't paradise and I can't rely on God to do everything for me. It's like Weltall said, I just have faith.

Quote:Again, you're making this an atheist vs. all organized religion war. You cannot do that, because none of those religions are similar in so much as they're one. You're suggesting that they're all credible, honest, true religions, which is impossible, because they all have different beliefs. That just goes to show you how false religion is...like I said, a bunch of bratty children wanting things their own way. A truely honest person who will never lie is about as rare as anything; does that mean it's not better to be truly honest? Ideals aren't always common, and neither is the truth, but that doesn't change what it is.


I'm not sure just why I'm so gung-ho against religion...perhaps because from my perspective, it'd be better for humanity to abandon such an ancient and shallow concept. On the other hand, religion is a fragile fabric which keeps billions of simple-minded idiots happy...they believe that if they sin, they'll be punished by a diety. Maybe that alone merits religion should continue. And I don't think I'm better than anything, I have a VERY low self esteem since my girlfriend dumped me and I was fired from my job 3 months ago, WHICH IS WHY ALL I DO IS COME HERE TO POST! [/B]

Maybe if you had some moral conviction and a little more optimism you would be a much happier person then just putting down people for their faith.( you might actually have a reason for you to even live)

As for being "brats having it their own way" , That statement has no merit or truth behind it ,

Can you say church soup kitchen volunteers who go out of there own way to feed the needy and unfortunate are " brats having it their own way"?!!! (pretty clear sadism right there)


but oddly enough I have a simple question to ask you darunia ,
Were does Morality and ethics come from?

As sopposedly the philosophy of evolution is survival of the fittest and I dont see how a sense of right wrong comes into assuring survival?

Quote: To accept Atheism is to believe that there are no consequences for your actions in life. I can see how that might sound liberating to people. Atheism is the easy way out.

Atheism is the easy way out!? What the hell are you talking about; atheism is a painful, often depressing way of life...akin to the Saxons before the Normans took over. I don't think I'm the center of anything, you tin reverend imbecile. Christiainity is the easy way out of accepting how grim life really is; it's a fabricated la la land with flying babies, talking snakes, mythical lands in clouds...how can you take any of that seriously! It fucken mystifies me...humanity really is doomed if so many are so blind and clueless. You'll go through life believing what you were indoctrinated to believe...you'll die thinking you're going to a mythical land in the clouds...and you call MY WAY THE EASY ONE?

I don't see the problem with believing that we'll go someplace better when we die. The only way that belief is going to affect our lives on Earth is that we'll have to follow certain rules to get to this "la la land in the clouds." Those rules are rules that humans should follow anyway, religious or not: don't kill, don't steal, don't screw someone you shouldn't, don't lie... For a lot of people, religion is what holds them back from doing what's wrong. (There are exceptions, I know.) And if there is no heaven, oh well... once we're dead, we're dead. It's not like we'll be around to care that we were wrong. It's not like the belief will haunt us for the rest of our afterlives. So yes, the world is a horrible place, and whether there's a heaven or not, things will improve when we die.

The world's a bad place, but its not so bad that that classic Christian belief that we're better off dead is correct...

It's not a Christian belief that we're better off dead, it's just one of my own personal sadistic beliefs. No, I'm not suicidal, I believe everyone should try to live life to the fullest and let death come when it chooses to come. There are some things in this world that make life worth living.

Actually, it is. See: the Middle Ages Roman Catholic church, and many others.

For a lot of people, religion is what holds them back from doing what's wrong.

I just said that!

whether there's a heaven or not, things will improve when we die.

That is just plain false...if there were a heaven, death would be bliss. Being that there is no such place, after (and before) life there is only eternal nothingness...what the French call a certain néant . As best as I can figure, we only live once, and only very briefly...so we should try and make the best of it.

noticies Darunia ignored my question on the origin of morality and ethics?

Whoa shit head, you just topped my pain list.

Maybe if you had some moral conviction and a little more optimism you would be a much happier person then just putting down people for their faith.( you might actually have a reason for you to even live)

Moral conviction; big words for you. I might even have a reason to live...you little fuck. My life has more meaning than yours; your a nameless statistic. Knowing how special and wonderful life is, and how there is nothing after it, gives my life so much more signifigance.

As for being "brats having it their own way" , That statement has no merit or truth behind it , Can you say church soup kitchen volunteers who go out of there own way to feed the needy and unfortunate are " brats having it their own way"?!!! (pretty clear sadism right there)

Oh come now. So now all christians are good samaritans, and all of them work in soup kitchens...all go to church every sunday, no christians every have premarital relations. Obviously thats not true...and I wasn't even referring to Christians as bratty children, but the religious sects themselves...as a whole, each sect is so arrogant and sure that there's is the one definitive solution to all the world's problems.

but oddly enough I have a simple question to ask you darunia , Were does Morality and ethics come from?

Morality comes in part from various religions, and ancient decrees; Codes of Hammurabi for example. (I know where you're going with that.) I also believe that deep down, most people have a fundamental knowledge of whats good and wrong; only lacking the will to obey it.

As sopposedly the philosophy of evolution is survival of the fittest and I dont see how a sense of right wrong comes into assuring survival? I seriously don't know what the hell you said; I need a Canadian-English dictionary. Try rewording it.

Quote:Obviously thats not true...and I wasn't even referring to Christians as bratty children, but the religious sects themselves...as a whole, each sect is so arrogant and sure that there's is the one definitive solution to all the world's problems.

Hoenstly, the differences between denominations is not faith, but in practice. And usually those differences are not major.

Or so you'd think, Weltall...yet every protestant I know absolutely hates Catholics; none of them know why...yet they ardently hate them. The fact that there are so many goddam schisms and cracks in Christianity prove that it's faulty.

11 pages...431 replies...this is never going to end. Anyone here want to negotiate peace and end this forsaken endless debate?

Quote:Hoenstly, the differences between denominations is not faith, but in practice. And usually those differences are not major.

Well, according to Christians (from what I've been told), if you don't have faith in Christ, then you're not getting to the promised land. That's pretty fucking major.

Weltall, the splits between Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and Protestants are pretty wide and deep... as you yourself show every time you attack the Catholics... :)

Quote:11 pages...431 replies...this is never going to end. Anyone here want to negotiate peace and end this forsaken endless debate?

That's probably one of the smartest things I've heard in this entire thread. It's because of religious disputes like this that most of the Middle East is at war 24/7. The best way to end these conflicts to shut up, so I hereby drop out of this argument. My opinion doesn't change, and no one else's has to either.

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Weltall, the splits between Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and Protestants are pretty wide and deep... as you yourself show every time you attack the Catholics... :)

I know, but the differences are not of faith, but of religious practices. My dislike for the Catholic church has nothing to do with their belief in God, but with all the trouble they get into.

I was half-Catholic once myself, and had to attend Catholic services as a child. The services were so dull. They need to learn to have a little fun.

I know, but the differences are not of faith, but of religious practices. My dislike for the Catholic church has nothing to do with their belief in God, but with all the trouble they get into.

It matters not...there are still pivotal differences; differences so wide and unfathomable then christians target one another.


I PROPOSE THE FOLLOW TREATY:

1.) Weltall and all Christians here acknowledge that there maybe isn't a god, and that there has never been any physical proof of one. In return, myself and my compatriots will not step on your right to worship in as much as verbally protesting it here. Does that please everyone?

Well, since acknowledging that there might not be a God compromises my beliefs, no thanks.

Here's a simple revision to your treaty:

Let's just agree that we all disagree, that some of us will continue to have unshakable faith in God and the rest of us will hold fast to there being no God, and that neither side has enough proof either way to make a convincing smoking gun argument in a debate, and call it a day.

Quote:Weltall and all Christians here acknowledge that there maybe isn't a god, and that there has never been any physical proof of one. In return, myself and my compatriots will not step on your right to worship in as much as verbally protesting it here. Does that please everyone?

I've been acknowledging that possibility for quite some time now. But I'll admit it again. God does seem to hide from society quite often, probably to test our faith, but it is possible that he might not exist. Whatever the case, I still believe he does and I shall now drop out of this topic.

I'll agree to disagree. I never even expected to change anyone's opinion, so I thought it'd come to this end, anyway.

Holy shit... 12 pages.

One of the only threads where we're able to stay on the same topic for more than one page. Not that it was the topic of the first post...

Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
Whoa shit head, you just topped my pain list.

[B]Maybe if you had some moral conviction and a little more optimism you would be a much happier person then just putting down people for their faith.( you might actually have a reason for you to even live)

Moral conviction; big words for you. I might even have a reason to live...you little fuck. My life has more meaning than yours; your a nameless statistic. Knowing how special and wonderful life is, and how there is nothing after it, gives my life so much more signifigance.

As for being "brats having it their own way" , That statement has no merit or truth behind it , Can you say church soup kitchen volunteers who go out of there own way to feed the needy and unfortunate are " brats having it their own way"?!!! (pretty clear sadism right there)


but oddly enough I have a simple question to ask you darunia , Were does Morality and ethics come from?

Morality comes in part from various religions, and ancient decrees; Codes of Hammurabi for example. (I know where you're going with that.) I also believe that deep down, most people have a fundamental knowledge of whats good and wrong; only lacking the will to obey it.

As sopposedly the philosophy of evolution is survival of the fittest and I dont see how a sense of right wrong comes into assuring survival? I seriously don't know what the hell you said; I need a Canadian-English dictionary. Try rewording it. [/B]

1. First of all name calling isnt gonna prove your point at all .

2.Darunia you always look for the worse in everyone,There isnt single individual without some fault of some kind and if you were a man of true faith you would see through peoples faults and see the true good in them.

Quote:Oh come now. So now all christians are good samaritans, and all of them work in soup kitchens...all go to church every sunday, no christians every have premarital relations. Obviously thats not true...and I wasn't even referring to Christians as bratty children, but the religious sects themselves...as a whole, each sect is so arrogant and sure that there's is the one definitive solution to all the world's problems.

In my religion Fornication is expeliable .It would take serious repentence to ever be welcomed back.

We already did this once... remember? A few pages back we agreed to disagree and to quit this discussion?

Then someone had to come in and make a new post... and here we are.

I wonder if it lasts this time?

Heh, I guess I'll formally drop out. Not like I've been arguing lately anyways.

Let's all just disregard ASM's most recent post.

Not very hard when its as hard to decipher, as usual...

Anyway, he doesn't really say anything worth commenting on...

*ASM banished to Neptune for all eternity*

*Delegations from both sides peacefully negotiate an end to the Second Great Religious War, though both sides know deep within that there will almost certainly be another day...*


'Fin.

Darunia Exploids and ASM wins the match!