Tendo City

I don't disagree that the 360 trigger is poorly placed; in fact that's what I said. It would be much better if it were lowered.

The point is, lowered isn't much better.

Yes, it is. Or rather, it would be. It would be much better.

You can't have triggers down there, though. Just shoulder buttons. Triggers are for the index finger. And darnit, I just don't like dual shoulder button designs... :)

Actually, if you MUST have dual shoulder buttons, I'd probably like to see a cross between the Sidewinder and the Xterminator. That is, dual index-finger triggers, but buttons underneath for the middle fingers... that could work. Not as ideal as just the triggers, but it could work.

You can use triggers with your middle finger as long as it's low enough.

Unless you are a retard and have trouble using all of your digits.

It's not a natural thing, OB1.

That's bullshit. What, because you don't shoot a gun with your middle finger? Great logic!

Actually yes, it is good logic.

Ah, great explanation. You're a genius, ABF.

About as good as your logic usually is. :)

Just because you have poor motor skills does not mean that everyone else does.

Yes, that's why other people here said the exact same thing I did, OB1...

You love that "you are the one who is weird and stupid and uniquely wrong" thing, but this is one of the (many) cases where that's absurd, and the fact that there are a bunch of other people here that agree with me proves that.

You and Smoke. So both of you have poor motor skills. Splendid.

http://www.xbox.com/media/games/e32005/v...001-Hi.asx link to the webcast. This will only work during it, of course (next hour or two)...

Quote:You and Smoke. So both of you have poor motor skills. Splendid.

Yes, and you are proven right with all of those guns out there that are fired with middle-finger triggers?

...

Yeah, as I said, it's not normal, and it's not natural. I should know, I've used a controller with low-down middle-finger buttons! (and I don't just mean PS1/2 style 'below the shoulder button' low down. See the image I posted.)

Oh right, the gun argument. Such a logical point. Because, as we know, controllers are just like guns. There are face buttons, analog sticks, dpads, star--oh wait... controllers aren't like guns so your opinion is fucking retarded.

No controllers are not just like guns. However when I'm playing a FPS I'd rather pull the guns trigger with my index finger as if I were shooting a real gun. It's about immersion. And yes of course you can use your middle finger to pull the trigger but it's not as comfortable and therefore not as desireable.

Triggers are meant to be kind of like a gun-style control mechanism.

JESUS IT'S THE SAME.

The functionality is the same. But it just wouldn't feel right. You can shoot a gun with your middle finger but it just wouldn't feel right. It's the same with a controllers triggers. They simulate holding a gun and pulling a trigger. If you're using your middle finger to do it it just wouldn't be the same.

And that's why the Xterminator felt strange.

You couldn't shoot a gun with your middle finger because there's a damn gun kind of in the way of your index finger. Good grief, people, think about this for a second!

It's more then that though. It just wouldn't feel natural to pull a trigger with your middle finger. It's as simple as that. If you want to go ahead, but I don't want to.

*sigh*

Logic to you two is like chili to hemorrhoid sufferers.

Look at your hand, OB1... fingers are not all the same. As the first finger, the index finger is perfect for something like a gun/trigger... the middle one is not meant to be used that way and hasn't, and it feels odd to do it. Really, have you used a controller like the Xterminator, or are you just saying this because I'm saying the opposite? I suspect the latter.

Just because a crappy PC pad didn't do it right doesn't mean that your view is true. Some pads also get face buttons wrong, so I guess face buttons are bad as well. Nice logic.

I would often use my middle fingers with the Dreamcast controller, and those triggers weren't even meant to be used that way. A pad made by a good controller maker with middle finger triggers in mind would work just fine.

What about our logic is so ridiculous, OB1?

A) Triggers on controllers are made to look and feel like triggers on guns.
B) Triggers on guns are pulled with the index finger.

Therefore:
It would feel most natural for a player to use his index finger to pull the trigger on the controller. So it feels like the trigger on a gun. I REALIZE that a gun and controller are not designed to fit into the hand the same way, but that's beside the point. The point is that when a player sees a trigger on a controller, it would be most intuitive for him to mentally connect that to the trigger on a gun. And what finger is used to pull the trigger on a gun?

We're not saying it CAN'T be done. All we're saying is that it feels much more natural that way. I don't think it can be explained any more simply and logically, but you're ranting as though we're complete maniacs.

Quote:I REALIZE that a gun and controller are not designed to fit into the hand the same way, but that's beside the point.

This right there shows the complete lack of reason and logic in your entire argument. The feel and positioning of the triggers are everything. Have you ever held a gun before? It feels nothing like a typical gamepad trigger! I can't believe I'm actually having to explain this...

I agree, this argument IS dumb, but only because it's a matter of opinion. Yeesh.

OB1 Wrote:This right there shows the complete lack of reason and logic in your entire argument. The feel and positioning of the triggers are everything. Have you ever held a gun before? It feels nothing like a typical gamepad trigger! I can't believe I'm actually having to explain this...

If the trigger on a gun feels NOTHING like the trigger on a controller, then why would people even call it a trigger, or associate it with a gun trigger? Aren't triggers put on controllers to emulate the feel of guns in certain games?

Quote:If the trigger on a gun feels NOTHING like the trigger on a controller, then why would people even call it a trigger, or associate it with a gun trigger?

...


...... are you serious?

MS's press conference was horrible. I can't believe I sat through an hour of that dribble. Bleh.

Quote:I would often use my middle fingers with the Dreamcast controller, and those triggers weren't even meant to be used that way. A pad made by a good controller maker with middle finger triggers in mind would work just fine.

Sometimes I use my middle fingers for the shoulder buttons on the Saitek p880, when I need to press two face buttons at the same time more accurately, and it's just not quite right...

Quote:...... are you serious?

Why do you take good points and use some stupid image or smilie to belittle them, instead of saying anything that has any value or point?

Quote:This right there shows the complete lack of reason and logic in your entire argument. The feel and positioning of the triggers are everything. Have you ever held a gun before? It feels nothing like a typical gamepad trigger! I can't believe I'm actually having to explain this...

No, I've never held a gun, and I'd rather keep it that way. I just know that triggers are a curved thing shaped more like a gun trigger, when compared to the mostly flat shapes that are shoulder buttons. Yes, they aren't gun triggers, but they're similar enough that they took the name "trigger" from them... (or triggers of things like crossbows -- they work the same way).

Quote:...... are you serious?

Um, yes. I am. Is it or is it not true that the z-trigger of the N64 controller is basically the same design of the trigger on a gun? That is, you hold onto a prong of the controller in your hand, while pulling back a finger to depress a button (or a lever, I suppose, in an actual gun's case)? Do you mean to tell me that you actually don't find the two designs similar enough that a player should find it most intuitive to use his index fingers on the triggers of a controller? I'll bet 99% of N64/Dreamcast players pulled the trigger buttons with their index fingers, instead of their middle fingers. Any time I've EVER seen a player hold/use an N64 controller, they've used their index fingers to pull the z-trigger.

Quote:Why do you take good points and use some stupid image or smilie to belittle them, instead of saying anything that has any value or point?

He's wondering why they're called triggers. He seriously, actually, honestly, thinks that they have to be called that because of gun triggers. There is no other way to respond to that.

Quote:No, I've never held a gun, and I'd rather keep it that way. I just know that triggers are a curved thing shaped more like a gun trigger, when compared to the mostly flat shapes that are shoulder buttons. Yes, they aren't gun triggers, but they're similar enough that they took the name "trigger" from them... (or triggers of things like crossbows -- they work the same way).

Well let me tell you that holding a gun feels absolutely nothing like holding any gamepad. Your point is ridiculous.

Sacred Jellybean Wrote:Um, yes. I am. Is it or is it not true that the z-trigger of the N64 controller is basically the same design of the trigger on a gun? That is, you hold onto a prong of the controller in your hand, while pulling back a finger to depress a button (or a lever, I suppose, in an actual gun's case)? Do you mean to tell me that you actually don't find the two designs similar enough that a player should find it most intuitive to use his index fingers on the triggers of a controller? I'll bet 99% of N64/Dreamcast players pulled the trigger buttons with their index fingers, instead of their middle fingers. Any time I've EVER seen a player hold/use an N64 controller, they've used their index fingers to pull the z-trigger.

Yes, and that's because they were positioned so that you would use your index fingers.

What on earth is wrong with you people. Did all of you watch the MS press conference? Maybe that has turned you dumb or something.

If a trigger were placed on a controller in a position that would be comfortable for the middle finger, it would work just fine. You would find that you're not actually that incompetent with your middle fingers, and would soon find a dozen different ways of using your other digits! It would be a revelation! I wish this for all of you; Smoke, beanjo, ABF.

I don't think I was alone and completely insane for seeing triggers on a controller for the first time and associating them with guns. I know I'm not alone on this or completely insane, because I've seen OTHER people make the same association. So stop acting like a dick.

Beanjo, read my above post before you make yourself look like an even bigger tool.

My point is that:

a) I'm used to the triggers on controllers being placed where the index finger should go. Suddenly switching that role to my middle fingers is less comfortable.
b) In games where guns are used, the game will not feel as immersive if you're constantly using your middle finger to pull the trigger on the controller. Why? Because one uses his index finger to pull the trigger of a gun.

I never said triggers wouldn't work if they were placed on the controller to be hit by your middle fingers. I just said it wouldn't feel as natural as if they were placed to be hit by your index fingers. It would take some getting used to, that's for sure. Shoot-em-up games (control-wise, at least) would never feel as immersive, though, for obvious reasons that I stated above.

Quote:I'm used to the triggers on controllers being placed where the index finger should go. Suddenly switching that role to my middle fingers is less comfortable.

So you can't adapt? We constantly adapt! We've adapted to new types of controls with each new generation (just about)!

Quote:In games where guns are used, the game will not feel as immersive if you're constantly using your middle finger to pull the trigger on the controller. Why? Because one uses his index finger to pull the trigger of a gun.

I never said anything about replacing the index trigger with the middle finger trigger.

Quote:So you can't adapt? We constantly adapt! We've adapted to new types of controls with each new generation (just about)!

Why yes, I COULD adapt. Fancy that! However, as I said before, it would still feel less natural than dedicating the triggers to the index fingers. Less natural, OB1. Not impossible.

Quote:I never said anything about replacing the index trigger with the middle finger trigger.

Replacing an index-finger-trigger with a middle-finger-trigger was the point from the start. The X-Box360 controller has triggers placed where the middle fingers will hit them, instead of the index fingers. It's not as comfortable, because everyone is pretty much used to triggers on controllers placed where the index fingers can hit them.

Quote:I don't think I was alone and completely insane for seeing triggers on a controller for the first time and associating them with guns. I know I'm not alone on this or completely insane, because I've seen OTHER people make the same association. So stop acting like a dick.

Look, this is OB1. He is always right, period, end of story... it doesn't matter if that something is completely opinion-based and there is no element of absolute fact for anyone to use, he is always, 100%, objectively, right.

This is a perfect example of that fact.

Quote:Yes, and that's because they were positioned so that you would use your index fingers.

What on earth is wrong with you people. Did all of you watch the MS press conference? Maybe that has turned you dumb or something.

If a trigger were placed on a controller in a position that would be comfortable for the middle finger, it would work just fine. You would find that you're not actually that incompetent with your middle fingers, and would soon find a dozen different ways of using your other digits! It would be a revelation! I wish this for all of you; Smoke, beanjo, ABF.

Look, you miss the point. I said, from the beginning, that with time you get used to using your middle fingers for lower buttons. I never implied that I was saying that I was bad with those buttons "it feels wrong" is not "I can't handle them". I don't know why you think that's what I meant. I meant what I said: it feels unnatural and is tough to get used to. Not "it makes playing games really hard".

Consider, one gets used to what one has used. My first controller with shoulder buttons was a Microsoft Sidewinder.

Quote:Why yes, I COULD adapt. Fancy that! However, as I said before, it would still feel less natural than dedicating the triggers to the index fingers. Less natural, OB1. Not impossible.

You would get used to it.

Quote:Replacing an index-finger-trigger with a middle-finger-trigger was the point from the start. The X-Box360 controller has triggers placed where the middle fingers will hit them, instead of the index fingers. It's not as comfortable, because everyone is pretty much used to triggers on controllers placed where the index fingers can hit them.

That wasn't my point at all. My problem with the XB360 controller is actually that the triggers are placed in the exact same position as the Controller S, which means that you can't use the triggers and shoulder buttons at the same time... which defeats the purpose of button the shoulder buttons there at all. They should have been extra face buttons. What I proposed was to lower the triggers to fit the middle finger more naturally, so that you can use the triggers and shoulder buttons at the same time. Not my ideal set-up, but the next best way to improve the 360 pad.

Quote:Look, this is OB1. He is always right, period, end of story... it doesn't matter if that something is completely opinion-based and there is no element of absolute fact for anyone to use, he is always, 100%, objectively, right.

This is a perfect example of that fact.

I'm glad you can participate in an actual discussion, ABF. I'm glad that you're not just a dipshit troll whose only argument is the very thing that you accuse me of.

Idiot.

If you want to gain any respect from me, stop acting like a fucking moron.

Quote:That wasn't my point at all. My problem with the XB360 controller is actually that the triggers are placed in the exact same position as the Controller S, which means that you can't use the triggers and shoulder buttons at the same time... which defeats the purpose of button the shoulder buttons there at all. They should have been extra face buttons. What I proposed was to lower the triggers to fit the middle finger more naturally, so that you can use the triggers and shoulder buttons at the same time. Not my ideal set-up, but the next best way to improve the 360 pad.

Well, okay then. That's fine. I was just saying that imo, I would rather keep the controller as it is now, instead of your set-up. I would rather just use my index fingers to press both the triggers and shoulder buttons, rather than being able to press all four at once by using my middle fingers for the triggers.

Quote:You would get used to it.

I said that myself, pretty much the first time I mentioned the Xterminator.

Quote:That wasn't my point at all. My problem with the XB360 controller is actually that the triggers are placed in the exact same position as the Controller S, which means that you can't use the triggers and shoulder buttons at the same time... which defeats the purpose of button the shoulder buttons there at all. They should have been extra face buttons. What I proposed was to lower the triggers to fit the middle finger more naturally, so that you can use the triggers and shoulder buttons at the same time. Not my ideal set-up, but the next best way to improve the 360 pad.

It's just like the GC controller, I guess, with the Z button... which finger, exactly, is supposed to use those buttons? Middle finger? But it's not really designed for that finger... so yes, you're right about that of course. I just don't agree with your solution. :)

Quote:Well, okay then. That's fine. I was just saying that imo, I would rather keep the controller as it is now, instead of your set-up. I would rather just use my index fingers to press both the triggers and shoulder buttons, rather than being able to press all four at once by using my middle fingers for the triggers.

The ideal controller would have four triggers, but it would look nothing like any current pad. And the middle finger triggers would be more like n64 z trigger than the analog ones seen on the xbox pad.

A bit like the Xterminator... though you probably aren't thinking of putting them that far down on the thing.

No, not like the stupid Xterminator.

Yes, just because I said it's good it's bad...

I thought you said it was bad.

I've used it, and it sucks. Big time.