Tendo City

Yes the variety of themes was better in Mario 64, but the controls and challenge in Sunshine more than made up for any of that.

But SM64 was so new and unique, and SMS is derivative... that is one big thing in SM64's favor...

Well of course. Mario 64 was the first real 3D platformer ever created, and it's an experience that one can only have once. But Sunshine improved upon just about everything in Mario 64, so it's of course my favorite of the two.

Sunshine can't emulate the feeling Super Mario 64 introduced as the first 3D platformer (especially with less levels and less varying level themes). Of course, this isn't fair... but Sunshine still improved upon some of Mario 64's imperfections (challenge, controls, etc.), which is completely worthless to reiterate.

Of course it isn't fair... but that's the way it is... SMS is technically better and improves the game, but its not innovative so it won't be remembered as being as good as the original... not a completely unfair thing to do because you do have to give SM64 a lot of points for being original... and for having a variety of levels...

That's nonsense. Sonic 3 didn't innovate as much as the first game did but I'll always remember it as being the best in the series. The exact same goes for GTA Vice City, Time Splitters 2, and hundreds of other games.

But none of those were the first of their kind ever... SM64 was...

Like SMB, sorta -- most people do like SMB3 or SMW more, but there's this thing that makes you like the original a lot too...

Overall? Yeah, SMS is better... but not if you include nostalgia.

Oh, and of the ones I've played (ie not Sonic CD), Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the best of that series...

There is of course that nostalgia factor that helps it, but I still prefer Sunshine over Mario 64. The better gameplay conquers the nostalgia factor.

SMS is fun to play, but I still feel as though the gameplay was still better in SM64. Nostalgia rules all, even SMS.

The only reason Mario Sunshine could be considered better than Mario 64 is if you've never played any other 3D platformers.

LOOK AT ME! I CAN ACT LIKE OB1 AS WELL! I'LL BE THE ANTI-OB1!! I'M RIGHT! YOU'RE WRONG! I'M COMPLETELY DISCREDITING YOUR OPINION BASED ON MY OPINION!!!

I've always implied that Mario Sunshine is better in my opinion. And what other platformers are better than Sunshine? Jak and Daxter? Ratchet and Clank? Don't make me laugh. The Mario titles have always been in a league of their own.

That's right, OB1...but SM64 was simply more fun and entertaining to play. Amazing variance, fun, up-beat music that always matches the area, and a wide variety of levels. SMS doesn't have that.

I love the music in sunshine. The levels lacked in variety of themes, but I can overlook that if the gameplay is better.

I still want to see a 3D Mario game that feels like the old ones. Get some backgrounds from Mario World and music from Mario 2, 3, and 4. Cel-shading would be perfect for a new Mario game. I'd also love to see crayon-style cel-shading. Imagine a 3D Mario game with levels that looked like they popped out of Yoshi's Island. Mmmm....

Cel-shading with Mario might work better than with Zelda for me, but the Yoshi's backgrounds in a 3D world....Darunia doesn't like.

If they pulled it off, why wouldn't you like that? Yoshi's Island is the coolest-looking 2D sidescroller ever made.

OH WAIT---You mean Yoshi's Island; I thought you meant Yoshi's Story! Now I see, and rather, I quite agree with you now!

Yeah. Yoshi's Island is a much better game, and I prefer the crayon-style backgrounds to the ones in Story.

Quote:Originally posted by OB1
I've always implied that Mario Sunshine is better in my opinion. And what other platformers are better than Sunshine? Jak and Daxter? Ratchet and Clank? Don't make me laugh. The Mario titles have always been in a league of their own.

I MAKKA YOU RAFF FUNNY MAN.

And that's opinion.

Mario Sunshine deserves to be criticised, just like every other 3D platformer, for being the same old thing. I don't see why it should be an exception.

:)

Yeah, Sunshine improves on SM64... but it probably isn't a better game because of how extremely derivative it is, and how it lacks variety... its a great game, but SM64 both invented a new genre and set a standard for 3d platformers that is near-impossible to match... and when it is matched it ends up being so similar... like most 3d platformers are.

Which is why it'd be great to see some true innovation return to the genre... I want more gaems which aren't 'A few big worlds'! That was fun for a few games... and it still is, actually... but it does get somewhat old after a while. Still fun, but it couldn't hurt to mix things up some in the genre...

Quote:Originally posted by Private Hudson
I MAKKA YOU RAFF FUNNY MAN.

And that's opinion.

Mario Sunshine deserves to be criticised, just like every other 3D platformer, for being the same old thing. I don't see why it should be an exception.

:)

Because it's the sequel to the game that started the genre, so it's okay if it's a lot like Mario 64. Naughty Dog, Insomniac, and everyone else ripped off Mario 64. It is not the same thing if it is from the same people. And Sunshine does it better than anyone else.

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Yeah, Sunshine improves on SM64... but it probably isn't a better game because of how extremely derivative it is, and how it lacks variety... its a great game, but SM64 both invented a new genre and set a standard for 3d platformers that is near-impossible to match... and when it is matched it ends up being so similar... like most 3d platformers are.

Which is why it'd be great to see some true innovation return to the genre... I want more gaems which aren't 'A few big worlds'! That was fun for a few games... and it still is, actually... but it does get somewhat old after a while. Still fun, but it couldn't hurt to mix things up some in the genre...

Is Mario 3 not as good as Mario 1 because it didn't create a whole new genre? Come on now, be realistic.

Yeah, Mario 3 is better than Mario 1, that is true... but I'm not so sure about SM64 vs SMS...

Well let's see... Sunshine has better controls, better level design, and a far greater challenge.

Quote:Originally posted by OB1
Is Mario 3 not as good as Mario 1 because it didn't create a whole new genre? Come on now, be realistic.

Mario 3 didn't come out at a time when the market had been over populated with 2D platformers to a public that demanded change.

That's why there's been so much emphasis from companies such as Sony (R&C, Sly Cooper) to change the style, or at least add significant changes to it.

Quote:Well let's see... Sunshine has better controls, better level design, and a far greater challenge.

Ok.. so Jak & Daxter has better controls than SM64, better level/world design, better story, better characters, better graphics, better everythying virtually. So OBVIOUSLY Jak & Daxter is BETTER than Mario 64.

See how easy that is?

Quote:Mario 3 didn't come out at a time when the market had been over populated with 2D platformers to a public that demanded change.

That's why there's been so much emphasis from companies such as Sony (R&C, Sly Cooper) to change the style, or at least add significant changes to it.

Haha, are you joking? The NES was flooded with Mario copy-cats when Mario 3 came out!

Quote:Ok.. so Jak & Daxter has better controls than SM64, better level/world design, better story, better characters, better graphics, better everythying virtually. So OBVIOUSLY Jak & Daxter is BETTER than Mario 64.

See how easy that is?

Better controls? I don't think so. J&D is much looser and you can't do all of the great jumps and abcrobatics that you can in Mario 64 and Sunshine. The level design was nothing special at all. Story does not matter, the characters are annoying, and graphics are unimportant. J&D is a far cry from Mario 64 or Sunshine.

A dorky, silent man with a cliche spikey blonde hairdo and some type of obnoxious orange rodent, better characters than Mario? BLASPHEMY!

You tell 'em, brutha!

Wasn't Hudson not being serious when he said that Jak & Dakster was better than Mario 64?

If that's not true, I agree with you... but it looks like it is...

Well he really loves J&D so I think he's being serious.

Quote:Haha, are you joking? The NES was flooded with Mario copy-cats when Mario 3 came out!

You missed the second half of my sentence.

Quote:Better controls? I don't think so. J&D is much looser and you can't do all of the great jumps and abcrobatics that you can in Mario 64 and Sunshine. The level design was nothing special at all. Story does not matter, the characters are annoying, and graphics are unimportant. J&D is a far cry from Mario 64 or Sunshine.

J&D's controls aren't loose at all. They're perfectly precisise. And you can do lots of acrobatics in J&D. Mario 64's level design was nothing special, and the fact that J&D is one constant world is amazing, story plays an important factor, the characters were humorous and the graphics add to the overall quality of the game. J&D is far ahead of Mario 64 and Mario Sunshine.

Quote:Originally posted by OB1
Well he really loves J&D so I think he's being serious.

I don't like J&D at all. I think Mario 64 is a much better game. You completely missed my point.

Yeah, I thought that those all-caps words were meant to show you were joking... maybe...

Um, Hudson, what IS your opinion? In that post you first say that J&D is better than SM64 or SMS then say you don't like it... huh?

Quote:You missed the second half of my sentence.

Ratchet is Jak and Daxter with guns. Sly Cooper is Crash Bandicoot meets Metal Gear Solid. Oooh! How original!

Quote:J&D's controls aren't loose at all. They're perfectly precisise. And you can do lots of acrobatics in J&D.

You're on crack. The controls are very loose and very elastic. And what acrobatics? The little double jump?? In Mario Sunshine there's a backflip, a double jump, a triple jump, a wall ride, a wall kick, a spinning jump, a dive/front somersault a tightrope/springboard jump, a rocket jump, a hover jump, a speed jump, a side somersault, a butt stomp, a spin spray, and a few others.

Quote:Mario 64's level design was nothing special, and the fact that J&D is one constant world is amazing, story plays an important factor, the characters were humorous and the graphics add to the overall quality of the game. J&D is far ahead of Mario 64 and Mario Sunshine.

Now you've added weed to the crack. Mario 64's level design was so incredible that everyone--especially Naughty Dog--copied every aspect of it. The whole "one constant world" aspect just placed the emphasis on exploration rather than platforming. The humor was alright, but the graphics are crap. It doesn't matter how many polygons you put in a game; if the textures are crap the game looks like crap. Definitely not anywhere near the level of Sunshine.

Quote:I don't like J&D at all. I think Mario 64 is a much better game. You completely missed my point.

What the hell?

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Yeah, I thought that those all-caps words were meant to show you were joking... maybe...

Um, Hudson, what IS your opinion? In that post you first say that J&D is better than SM64 or SMS then say you don't like it... huh?

I posted that to show how easy it is for someone such as OB1 to just announce his opinion as fact, based on more opinions.

J&D isn't that good of a game. The first half of it is very fun, perhaps better than any other Platformer, due to the excellently designed world. But after you've done a lot of the quests, it become just like every other 3D platformer. An annoying hunt and collect game. It's not as good as Mario 64, due to the fact that, for the most part it's just Mario 64 with all the levels connected.

Quote:Ratchet is Jak and Daxter with guns. Sly Cooper is Crash Bandicoot meets Metal Gear Solid. Oooh! How original!

More original than remaking Mario 64 and adding a water cannon :p

Quote:You're on crack. The controls are very loose and very elastic. And what acrobatics? The little double jump?? In Mario Sunshine there's a backflip, a double jump, a triple jump, a wall ride, a wall kick, a spinning jump, a dive/front somersault a tightrope/springboard jump, a rocket jump, a hover jump, a speed jump, a side somersault, a butt stomp, a spin spray, and a few others.

You're on crack, they're incredibly precise. Probably the best controlling platformer I've ever played.

And you have an odd definition of acrobatics.

Quote:Now you've added weed to the crack. Mario 64's level design was so incredible that everyone--especially Naughty Dog--copied every aspect of it. The whole "one constant world" aspect just placed the emphasis on exploration rather than platforming. The humor was alright, but the graphics are crap. It doesn't matter how many polygons you put in a game; if the textures are crap the game looks like crap. Definitely not anywhere near the level of Sunshine.

The one constant world aspect enhanced the game indefinately (well, for a while). The graphics are amazing. Of course the textures are going to be poor in a world of that size, considering, I think the texure work is very good (and is beyond that of most PS2 games). The sheer size of the world, along with the best animations ever in a game make it absolutely gorgeous to look at. Sunshine isn't an ugly game, it's draw distance is nice (although blurry - which is an effect), and does some very nice effects (the water is amazing). But it really isn't up to the standards of J&D.

Oh, and Mario Sunshine's textures are crap as well. :)


:wow:

And I still don't see how you can call it (J&D) ugly, and disagree with EVERY reviewer, and hell, pretty much every person. But of course, you're right, and everyone else is wrong.

And as far as annoying characters are concerned... FLUDD is the most annoying 'buddy' I've had the misfotune of having strapped to my back. I still don't know what the hell they were thinking making the Waterpack talk.

Quote:What the hell?

Read what I said to Falcon. It's amazing how you can manage to turn even a mock arguement into a real arguement.

Its (FLUDD) not the worst helper/announcer ever...

How about those infuriating announcers in Wave Race Blue Storm? Every one of them is incredibly annoying...

Or the unmatched '3-2-1' voice in F-Zero X.

Oh, and not serious or serious, it is very odd to say 'game x is better than game y in every way! Oh yeah, and game y is so much more fun than game x!" It just doesn't make sense...

And yeah Mario Sunshine has a lot of textures that would be at home on the N64, unfortunately...

That's fine and dandy, but I still feel unchanged from my stance. SMS was good and fun, and the levels were cool, but SM64 just has it beat on virtually every field.

FLUDD wasn't annoying, but it sure didn't add any too much to the game either.

Ok first of all, the game does not look anywhere near that bad in real life. They didn't even turn on anti-aliasing in those screenshots. Some of the textures sucked, but they weren't as bad as the ones in Jak and Daxter.

Quote:More original than remaking Mario 64 and adding a water cannon

As I said before, that's allowed since Nintendo invented the genre.

Quote:You're on crack, they're incredibly precise. Probably the best controlling platformer I've ever played.

And you have an odd definition of acrobatics.

He controls like a damned rubber band, boy! And my definition is odd? Let me take it from merriam-webser online then:

ac·ro·bat n.

1 : one that performs gymnastic feats requiring skillful control of the body

Quote:The one constant world aspect enhanced the game indefinately (well, for a while). The graphics are amazing. Of course the textures are going to be poor in a world of that size, considering, I think the texure work is very good (and is beyond that of most PS2 games). The sheer size of the world, along with the best animations ever in a game make it absolutely gorgeous to look at. Sunshine isn't an ugly game, it's draw distance is nice (although blurry - which is an effect), and does some very nice effects (the water is amazing). But it really isn't up to the standards of J&D.

Good grief man, what is wrong with you? Jak and Daxter is a hideous-looking game! There is not one single texture in the game that is decent, and the aliasing is bad as any PSX game I've seen.

Quote:And I still don't see how you can call it (J&D) ugly, and disagree with EVERY reviewer, and hell, pretty much every person. But of course, you're right, and everyone else is wrong.

Ah, so you simply copied your opinion from reviewers rather than looking at the game yourself, huh? Well guess what? These reviewers are also the ones that called Tekken "the best fighter ever!" and Red Faction "the best shooter ever!". j&d looks okay for a PS2 game, and that's not saying much.

Quote:Originally posted by OB1
Ok first of all, the game does not look anywhere near that bad in real life. They didn't even turn on anti-aliasing in those screenshots. Some of the textures sucked, but they weren't as bad as the ones in Jak and Daxter.

I know the game looks much better in motion :) Still doesn't look better than J&D..

Quote:As I said before, that's allowed since Nintendo invented the genre.

Allowed, perhaps. Doesn't make them exempt from the fact that most (including myself, and most likely you) people were getting majorly sick of the formula of Mario 64 being used.

Quote:He controls like a damned rubber band, boy! And my definition is odd? Let me take it from merriam-webser online then:

ac·ro·bat n.

1 : one that performs gymnastic feats requiring skillful control of the body

Using your water cannon = control of the body? :p

Quote:Good grief man, what is wrong with you? Jak and Daxter is a hideous-looking game! There is not one single texture in the game that is decent, and the aliasing is bad as any PSX game I've seen.

As I've said before, it's not the textures that make the game look amazing. And I still don't think the aliasing is bad =\

Quote:Ah, so you simply copied your opinion from reviewers rather than looking at the game yourself, huh? Well guess what? These reviewers are also the ones that called Tekken "the best fighter ever!" and Red Faction "the best shooter ever!". j&d looks okay for a PS2 game, and that's not saying much.

Actually, I think reviewers perhaps undershoot just how good the game looks :p But those, old buddy, are a persons opinion. You can't just call them wrong (Yes, even you can't). But when a game is virtually voted unanomously across the board as amazing looking, then you come across as an ass :p

Quote:Its (FLUDD) not the worst helper/announcer ever...

No, I meant a buddy. Like Banjo Kazooy or Ratchet & Clank. Perhaps he wasn't on that level, but he sure felt like it. And was annoying as hell :cuss: :)

Quote:No, I meant a buddy. Like Banjo Kazooy or Ratchet & Clank. Perhaps he wasn't on that level, but he sure felt like it. And was annoying as hell

Yeah, I know... I wouldn't say the announcers in WR:BS are that different from that... especially with how there is a different (and equally annoying!) one for each racer...

And FLUDD wasn't that bad.

Oh, and I don't remember exactly... did SMS have the longjump in it? I know that Banjo-Tooie doesn't have it as far as I know... that was great in SM64...

Quote:I know the game looks much better in motion Still doesn't look better than J&D..

Yes it does. J&D looks bad compared to most of the PS2 games that came out at the time, let alone Mario Sunshine.

Quote:Allowed, perhaps. Doesn't make them exempt from the fact that most (including myself, and most likely you) people were getting majorly sick of the formula of Mario 64 being used.

Hey it's not Nintendo's fault that everyone copied Mario 64 and refused to innovate.

Quote:Using your water cannon = control of the body?

WTF? That didn't even make any sense!

Quote:As I've said before, it's not the textures that make the game look amazing. And I still don't think the aliasing is bad =\

Yes it is! It doesn't matter if your game runs at even 60 billion pps; if the textures are ugly than the game looks ugly! Textures are more important than poly count. Take Doom 3 for instance. The game pushes far less ploygons per second than Rogue Leader, but it's textures and lighting are so fanastic that you can't even tell.

Quote:Actually, I think reviewers perhaps undershoot just how good the game looks But those, old buddy, are a persons opinion. You can't just call them wrong (Yes, even you can't). But when a game is virtually voted unanomously across the board as amazing looking, then you come across as an ass

I'm sorry, but texture quality is not subjective. The textures are very poor. Of course, if you're comparing the game to say, Bubsy 3D then of course the textures look great. But they were supposed to compare the textures to the best-looking PS2 games at the time: ICO, MGS2, Devil May Cry, GT3, etc. Jak and Daxter's texture quality does not hold up to those games'.

Quote:No, I meant a buddy. Like Banjo Kazooy or Ratchet & Clank. Perhaps he wasn't on that level, but he sure felt like it. And was annoying as hell

Nobody is more annoying than Daxter.

Quote:FLUDD wasn't annoying, but it sure didn't add any too much to the game either.

Um... did you play Mario Sunshine? The water pack was kind of the whole point of the game. You could hover, you could run on water, you could rocket yourself a hundred feet in the air, you could do these cool flips on wires...

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Yeah, I know... I wouldn't say the announcers in WR:BS are that different from that... especially with how there is a different (and equally annoying!) one for each racer...

And FLUDD wasn't that bad.

Oh, and I don't remember exactly... did SMS have the longjump in it? I know that Banjo-Tooie doesn't have it as far as I know... that was great in SM64...

FLUDD only talked for about five seconds in the entire game. And no the long jump was missing in Sunshine for some odd reason.

The designers probably wanted the player to use the water pack to jump far, rather than the long jump. It probably would have made certain parts easier... but they should have re-introducted it in the mini-platforming levels where you didn't have the water pack.

Quote:FLUDD only talked for about five seconds in the entire game. And no the long jump was missing in Sunshine for some odd reason.

Yeah, I thought it was missing... too bad, it was very useful in SM64... and yes there is the jetpack but that's not a full replacement... but why was it missing in Banjo-Tooie? That didn't even have a replacement on that level... I think...

Quote:Hey it's not Nintendo's fault that everyone copied Mario 64 and refused to innovate.

That isn't true and you know it... some innovated (Rocket's use of very realistic physics (less innovation there but its something), Rayman 2 with its 3d-cooridor style play...

Quote:WTF? That didn't even make any sense!

He's saying that moves that use the jetpack (water spinning, etc) don't count as acrobatic... and has a point...

Quote:Yes it is! It doesn't matter if your game runs at even 60 billion pps; if the textures are ugly than the game looks ugly! Textures are more important than poly count. Take Doom 3 for instance. The game pushes far less ploygons per second than Rogue Leader, but it's textures and lighting are so fanastic that you can't even tell.

I'd say both are important, but when going for the best graphical look to the viewer you can definitely get away with lower poly counts and have your game look better than a high poly one with good textures...

Quote:That isn't true and you know it... some innovated (Rocket's use of very realistic physics (less innovation there but its something), Rayman 2 with its 3d-cooridor style play...

No one really did anything completely original. Rayman just made it more linear. I expect Mario 128 to take the next big leap forward.

Quote:He's saying that moves that use the jetpack (water spinning, etc) don't count as acrobatic... and has a point...

No he doesn't. You control the waterpak, not the other way around. The waterpack helps you do a few more things, but if you took it away there would still be tons of acrobatics in the game. And you do the spin jump without the waterpack's assistance.

Quote:I'd say both are important, but when going for the best graphical look to the viewer you can definitely get away with lower poly counts and have your game look better than a high poly one with good textures...

Yes. Textures are much more important than poly counts.

Come on... Rayman 2 wasn't Mario with cooridor levels! Um, you don't jump on people in that game, you shoot them with a Zelda-style lockon... I'd say that that's a big difference...

And the waterpack is used a lot but it isn't part of Mario's body, so you can do stuff with it but it shouldn't count in a list of things Mario can do (the various jumps)...

Quote:Yes it does. J&D looks bad compared to most of the PS2 games that came out at the time, let alone Mario Sunshine.

Woah, man! The colors! Did you just see that!? *puff*

Quote:Hey it's not Nintendo's fault that everyone copied Mario 64 and refused to innovate.

Though, it is Nintendo's fault that they refused to innovate, while many of their contemporaries were at least trying to to.

Quote:Yes it is! It doesn't matter if your game runs at even 60 billion pps; if the textures are ugly than the game looks ugly! Textures are more important than poly count. Take Doom 3 for instance. The game pushes far less ploygons per second than Rogue Leader, but it's textures and lighting are so fanastic that you can't even tell.

Textures are very important, but there are many other factors. One example where polygons makes up for lack of textures that I can think of would be the early PS2 "Old man" tech demo", when compared to the Passport Shenmue "Old man" (which, for all intents and purposes was a tech demo). While Shenmue's face lacked a lot of polygons, it made up for it with great textures. And while Sony's face lacked textures, it made up for it with a LOT of polygons.

Oh, and the reason Doom 3 looks good, despite pushing a minimal amount of polygons is the massive use of bump/poly mapping.... WHICH GIVES THE ILLUSION OF MORE POLYGONS :p

But yes, textures are more important than pollies. Particularly when combined with great effects. But they aren't the be all, end all determining factor in how good a game looks.,

But once again, the quality of the textures isn't the best thing about J&D. The size of the qorld is truely gorgeous. My jaw just dropped everytime I ran out onto an area overlooking the rest of world. And coupled with the GORGEOUS animations, and a silky smooth 60fps (compared to Marios 30fps), it's easily better than Mario. :)

Quote:I'm sorry, but texture quality is not subjective. The textures are very poor. Of course, if you're comparing the game to say, Bubsy 3D then of course the textures look great. But they were supposed to compare the textures to the best-looking PS2 games at the time: ICO, MGS2, Devil May Cry, GT3, etc. Jak and Daxter's texture quality does not hold up to those games'.

Of course not. And it also doesn't live up to the texture quality present in Tekken Tag. In fact, NONE OF THOSE GAMES DO! OMG! TEKKEN TAG IS THE BEST LOOKING GAME ON PS2!!!!!! Fancy that, perhaps the SIZE of the ENVIRONMENTS has something to do with the quality of textures!? NO WAY!!!

Quote:Nobody is more annoying than Daxter.

FLUDD is far more annoying :p

Quote:Um... did you play Mario Sunshine? The water pack was kind of the whole point of the game. You could hover, you could run on water, you could rocket yourself a hundred feet in the air, you could do these cool flips on wires...

I believe he meant the fact that the water pack could speak. :)

Quote:Come on... Rayman 2 wasn't Mario with cooridor levels! Um, you don't jump on people in that game, you shoot them with a Zelda-style lockon... I'd say that that's a big difference...

Ok so Rayman 2 is more original than most platformers, but it's still an evolution of the Mario 64 style.

Quote:And the waterpack is used a lot but it isn't part of Mario's body, so you can do stuff with it but it shouldn't count in a list of things Mario can do (the various jumps)...

That's ridiculous. Should Banjo-Kazooie's moves not be considered acrobatic because they're two beings rather than one?

Quote:Woah, man! The colors! Did you just see that!? *puff*

Quote:Though, it is Nintendo's fault that they refused to innovate, while many of their contemporaries were at least trying to to.

Haha, like who? Naughty Dog? They haven't had a single original idea since... well since never. This is Nintendo's second platformer, and Mario 128 is supposed to be the one that innovates. How many unoriginal platformers has Naughty Dog made? Five. And that's not even including the Mario Kart and DKR rip-off known as Crash Team Racing. And what about Insomniac? They've made around the same number of unoriginal games.

Quote:Textures are very important, but there are many other factors. One example where polygons makes up for lack of textures that I can think of would be the early PS2 "Old man" tech demo", when compared to the Passport Shenmue "Old man" (which, for all intents and purposes was a tech demo). While Shenmue's face lacked a lot of polygons, it made up for it with great textures. And while Sony's face lacked textures, it made up for it with a LOT of polygons.

What are you talking about?

Quote:Oh, and the reason Doom 3 looks good, despite pushing a minimal amount of polygons is the massive use of bump/poly mapping.... WHICH GIVES THE ILLUSION OF MORE POLYGONS

That falls under the texture category, dummy.

Quote:But yes, textures are more important than pollies. Particularly when combined with great effects. But they aren't the be all, end all determining factor in how good a game looks.,

Well of course not, but they are the most important part.

Quote:But once again, the quality of the textures isn't the best thing about J&D. The size of the qorld is truely gorgeous. My jaw just dropped everytime I ran out onto an area overlooking the rest of world. And coupled with the GORGEOUS animations, and a silky smooth 60fps (compared to Marios 30fps), it's easily better than Mario.

The world is bigger, and the framerate is smoother, but everything else is way below Mario Sunshine. Especially all of the other effects such as water. Just look at the water in J&D! Turok 1's water was even better looking. Seriously!

Quote:Of course not. And it also doesn't live up to the texture quality present in Tekken Tag. In fact, NONE OF THOSE GAMES DO! OMG! TEKKEN TAG IS THE BEST LOOKING GAME ON PS2!!!!!! Fancy that, perhaps the SIZE of the ENVIRONMENTS has something to do with the quality of textures!? NO WAY!!!

Uh... you kind of went off on a tangent there. That has nothing to do with what I just said.

Quote:FLUDD is far more annoying

How?? He talks for only a few seconds in the entire game, while Daxter talks for hours and won't shut up. He's the scrappy doo of video game sidekicks.

Quote:I believe he meant the fact that the water pack could speak.

Sure they could have left that out, but he only spoke for a few seconds so it's a non-issue.

Quote:Originally posted by OB1

Haha, like who? Naughty Dog? They haven't had a single original idea since... well since never. This is Nintendo's second platformer, and Mario 128 is supposed to be the one that innovates. How many unoriginal platformers has Naughty Dog made? [b]Five. And that's not even including the Mario Kart and DKR rip-off known as Crash Team Racing. And what about Insomniac? They've made around the same number of unoriginal games. [/b]

I was referring to games such as R&C, Sly Cooper, Blinx etc. Games that were at least trying to do something other than the standard platformer elements that we had seen since M64.

Quote:What are you talking about?

You don't remember the Old Man PS2 tech demo? It's basically a compare/contrast of textures vs. polygons. They both look about of equal quality (though, the PS2 one was ahead).

Quote:That falls under the texture category, dummy.

But doing things that could be done by adding more polygons. :)

Quote:The world is bigger, and the framerate is smoother, but everything else is way below Mario Sunshine. Especially all of the other effects such as water. Just look at the water in J&D! Turok 1's water was even better looking. Seriously!

J&D's water effects were lacking, and Mario Sunshine's looked amazing, probably better than Wave Race.

Quote:Uh... you kind of went off on a tangent there. That has nothing to do with what I just said.

Im claiming that the size of J&D's environments negates the fact that it's textures are poor in comparison to PS2 games located in SMALLER environments.

Quote:I was referring to games such as R&C, Sly Cooper, Blinx etc. Games that were at least trying to do something other than the standard platformer elements that we had seen since M64.

Blinx is the only game you listed which actually did something pretty original, rather than the "let's take something from this game and add it to this game" formula that the guys at Naughty Dog, Insomniac, and even Sucker Punch like to use. But Blinx isn't that great of a game.

Quote:You don't remember the Old Man PS2 tech demo? It's basically a compare/contrast of textures vs. polygons. They both look about of equal quality (though, the PS2 one was ahead).

You mean that Final Fantasy thing? Those textures were great!

Quote:But doing things that could be done by adding more polygons.

Haha, siwwy widdle Hudson. The reason why developers use bump-mapping is because it doesn't tax the engine as much as real polygons do. So they can create the illusion of a super-high poly count and have great textures.

Quote:J&D's water effects were lacking, and Mario Sunshine's looked amazing, probably better than Wave Race.

Yes, and all of the other effects are very impressive, including the whole oil/water thing.

Quote:Im claiming that the size of J&D's environments negates the fact that it's textures are poor in comparison to PS2 games located in SMALLER environments.

It doesn't matter how big they are if they look so crappy because of piss-poor textures.

Quote:Originally posted by OB1
Blinx is the only game you listed which actually did something pretty original, rather than the "let's take something from this game and add it to this game" formula that the guys at Naughty Dog, Insomniac, and even Sucker Punch like to use. But Blinx isn't that great of a game.

They added something that totally changed the complexity with which the game was played. In the end, Blinx, the real innovator, turned out to be a mere gimmick. They really could have given you lots of opportunities to use it properly had it been a really open ended and exploratory based gameplay, but alas. :(

Quote:You mean that Final Fantasy thing? Those textures were great!

No. The old man's face. :) Was similar to the Shenmue Passport disc (although, Shenmue also drew in a little bit of a background)

Quote:Haha, siwwy widdle Hudson. The reason why developers use bump-mapping is because it doesn't tax the engine as much as real polygons do. So they can create the illusion of a super-high poly count and have great textures.

Dur. Still nothing that polygons couldn't do.

Although, IF it was on a machine which would process polygons to no end, and was horrible at doing textures (or multiple texture passes), such as an extreme version of the PS2, then it would be less taxing to do it with polygons than with texture maps :p

Quote:[/b]It doesn't matter how big they are if they look so crappy because of piss-poor textures. [/B]

You must have really hated the textures. The environments looked fantastic despite the textures, IMO. :)

Oh well, it's good to actually see an arguement come to a conclusion without someone screaming "I GIVE UP! YOU WONT LISTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Quote:They added something that totally changed the complexity with which the game was played. In the end, Blinx, the real innovator, turned out to be a mere gimmick. They really could have given you lots of opportunities to use it properly had it been a really open ended and exploratory based gameplay, but alas.

The concept was innovative, which is more than you can say about any of those other games you listed.

Quote:No. The old man's face. Was similar to the Shenmue Passport disc (although, Shenmue also drew in a little bit of a background)

Can you find a picture?

Quote:Dur. Still nothing that polygons couldn't do.

You still don't get it, do you?

Quote:Although, IF it was on a machine which would process polygons to no end, and was horrible at doing textures (or multiple texture passes), such as an extreme version of the PS2, then it would be less taxing to do it with polygons than with texture maps

.... ah... what's your point?

Quote:You must have really hated the textures. The environments looked fantastic despite the textures, IMO.

Yes I hated them. They ruined everything!