31st July 2003, 12:56 PM
Quote:I didn't mean innovation-wise, I meant arcadey vs simlike...
Not really.
Quote:Okay, that was wrong. Elite was first. But Wing Commander did create a subgenre of simpler ones... Elite and Wing Commander have quite different focuses.
Yeah, Elite has more depth to it.
Quote:I just can't agree there. Contra to Doom is a bigger change than, say, Outrun to Mario Kart... at least to me... Contra to Doom has a whole perspective and gameplay control shift, while Outrun to Mario Kart doesn't! You say that it had a huge impact one many other things (not perspective), and yes, in some it did... but still... while there are huge differences between it and games before it, for sure, they just aren't on the level of early FPSes vs. sidescrolling action games. Sorry... I just don't think that it was that dramatic.
They differ drastically, but not nearly as drastically as Gradius and Wing Commander.
The only difference between Contra and Doom is perspective and controls, but the differences between Outrun and Mario Kart are large and numerous. No more driving in a straight line, insane weapons and power-ups which completely changed the way the game was played, close battles with other vehicles instead of just seeing on car fly right by you like in Outrun, the power-slide (one of the most innovative aspects of Mario Kart which everyone copied), arena battles, etc. The list goes on.
Quote:Okay, okay, Wing Commander is a simplistic space sim. I know.
Now... if you took TIE Fighter and put it topdown, I'd still argue that its much more a sim than an action game. But Wing Commander admittedly is a simpler game.
Honestly, I never really liked Wing Commander's 'kill group of enemies, warp to next group, kill them, warp to next group, kill them, end mission' gameplay... so simple, compared to better space sims...
Try this arguement with X-Wing, TIE Fighter, I-War, Battlecruiser, Freespace, X, or a dozen other games and you'd lose. Because those just AREN'T ACTION GAMES!
You only have any kind of case because Wing Commander is just about the least simlike space sim there is.
Its just absurd that I have to spend time defending the obvious fact that space sims are sims and not mindless action games...
And Mario Kart is not Outrun, which is the point that you fail to grasp. Of course the genre evolved from Wing Commander into something more akin to a true slight sim, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about where the genre spawned from, about how Wing Commander is basically Gradius but through the view of the cockpit. That's it.
Quote:"So many"? Like what?
Other than Cruis'n.
Hmm... lets see. Racing games I like a lot.
F-Zero X, Wipeout 64, Rush 2, Rush 2049, Micro Machines, Pod, Moto Racer 2, Rollcage Stage II, Death Rally, Hydro Thunder, Excitebike 64... except for Hydro Thunder and Pod, which got many midrange scores, those all got fairly good numbers...
The first two Rush games and POD are pretty crappy.