Quote:But... Mario Kart IS a racing game like many other racing games...

Quote:What?! Are you completely insane?! How many times have you hit someone with a turtle shell in Rush 2049? Mario Kart is a kart-racer!! It's VERY different from other racing games!!

Quote: How'd you manage to get a GBA game back in '95 of ANY century (I assume 1995 is what you mean)?

Quote: You have to realize that ABF also thinks that all regular car racers are identical to the crap-tastic Cruisin' games, even the mighty Outrun. The guy is nuts.

Quote:It is a weapon-based racing game. So are Wipeout, Extreme-G, and many, many others... sure Mario Kart and Wipeout are quite different gameplay wise, but how can you say Mario Kart is a unique game?

Quote:It makes no sense... there are a lot of kart racing games out there!

Quote:I haven't hit people in Rush 2049 with turtle shells, but I have hit cars with homing missiles in Extreme-G 2 and 3...

Quote:As usual, you take something I said and expand it way, way past what I meant. How about looking at what I say and thinking that it MEANS WHAT I WROTE, huh?

I said Cruis'n USA is clearly in the tradition of Outrun. And it is! You drive forward on a twisting road... very similar style of gameplay. Of course Outrun is a great, great game, but I do think that Cruis'n is a good newer version of that style of racing game... you don't. I know. BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT A BAD GAME! Some games ARE bad. But not most... most are good if you like that type of game. Like Cruis'n. I love arcade-style racing games...

Quote:Good grief, are you really that stupid??!! I mean really! Are you saying that the weapons are the only part of Mario Kart that seperate it from other racing games???

Quote:Yes, and those are all rip-offs of Mario Kart!! Every single cart-based racing game out there is a direct rip-off of Mario Kart.

Quote:Which is a rip-off of Wipeout, which in turn is a rip-off of F-Zero and Mario Kart (futuristic stuff from F-Zero and weapons from Mario Kart).

Quote:You're changing your argument yet again because you're losing. Classic ABF. You said "So you hate all SNES behind-the-car psuedo 3d racers? Because all Cruis'n really is is that genre, done better.", which implies that Cruisin' is just like all of those older games because they're in the same genre. You can't back away from what you wrote, ABF. I pay attention to what you say because you always try to worm your way out of an argument. You can't get it past me, so don't even try.

All of the Cruisin' games are very bad racers, but if you like them that's fine. You're crazy, but that's fine.

Quote:Of course not. And of course kart racers are a unique subgenre of the racing genre. But so totally different that I'd say they are completely unique? No way. You race on a track with weapons. Sure the style and play is different but at heart its a weapons-based racer... different from in many ways but not completely other weapons-based racers like the ones I mentioned.

Quote:Oh, and try to show how Mario Kart is fundamentally different from the rest of the kart racing genre.

...

Yeah, I thought so.

Quote:True. But they are in the same genre... and once cloned it just isn't unique anymore...

Quote:So Mario Kart was the first racing game EVER with weapons?

Quote:First, read my expanded comments after the edits I made.

Now... I'm not changing my arguement. Those older psuedo 3d racers are pretty much all in the same genre as Cruis'n. BUT that isn't the only type of racing games, either then or now, so I am not changing anything to say that.

You see, ALL, MOST, and SOME are different.

ALMOST ALL psuedo-3d racing games are stylistically pretty similar to what Cruis'n is based on. Arcadey, unrealistic, simple... with that style of track design.

HOWEVER, there are other types on the SNES, such as topdown racers, so Cruis'n is NOT like ALL of them. Since not ALL SNES racers are psuedo-3d-arcade, of course. There are others like Micro Machines...

Quote:You could downplay every single game like that if you wanted to. Warcraft is just a game where you build stuff and fight. TIE Fighter is just a game where you fly around in space and shoot stuff. Gran Turismo is just a game where you drive around. See what I'm getting at? Mario Kart is very unique (or at least it was before it was copied a billion times), and when it came out there was nothing like it.

Quote:It's still in a league of its own.

Quote:That particular balance of weapons, yes. Try and prove me wrong.

Quote:No, what you said was that if I liked those old SNES racers then I have to like the Cruisin' games because "they're the same", which is completey inane.

Quote:But just like Mario Kart, Outrun, F-Zero, and Wipeout, TIE Fighter, Wing Commander, Freelancer, and Star Trek Bridge Commander are all space sims... very different from eachother, but in the same genre with clear ties. Just like those games...

Yes, when Mario Kart came out it hadn't been done before. That is true... but you make it sound like the idea of racing around a track with weapons was some radical idea. It wasn't. Its just the presentation that was really unique...

Quote:Hardly.

Quote:That depends completely on what "that balance of weapons" is... plenty of games had had some weapons before that, though. I really don't know if others had had that much variety before Mario Kart, but it hardly invented the weapons-based racing game.

Oh, and I don't really see how Wipeout is taking its style of weapon-based racing from Mario Kart... I've never thought of that before, because the gameplay style and the way they implement weapons is so different...

Quote:Wow, you took that statement literally? I wasn't serious!

Quote:All I meant was that its a racing game in a long tradition... unlike some other 3d racing games that went new ways, Cruisn' was really going back to older ideas... and if you like that style its more likely you'd like Cruis'n... it doesn't make it certain of course, but its more likely because Cruisn' really does remind me of those games.

But yes they are different so I can see you liking the 16-bit ones and disliking Cruis'n. Though if its depth you're complaining about...

Quote:F-Zero is very different from Gran Turismo and Mario Kart is very different from both of them. TIE Fighter and all of those other space sims are very much alike, true, but that's because there's very little innovation in the space sim genre. Mario Kart is as much different from other car racing games as Gradius is from Wing Commander.

Quote:F-Zero is very different from Gran Turismo and Mario Kart is very different from both of them. TIE Fighter and all of those other space sims are very much alike, true, but that's because there's very little innovation in the space sim genre. Mario Kart is as much different from other car racing games as Gradius is from Wing Commander.

With Mario Kart it's not just "racing with weapons" as you so ignorantly put it, it's racing around crazy tracks with the kinds of power-ups that you'd see in a Mario game. It's essentially a car platformer, and that is very different from the likes of Outrun and GT.

Quote:Says the guy who likes the atrocious Cruisin' series and dozens of other terrible racing games.

Quote:Of course you've never thought of that, you're ABF. Mario Kart has a perfect balance of weapons and power-ups. The power-ups are actually more important than the weapons themselves, and no other racing game did that before MK. Wipeout is F-Zero with Mario Kart's weapons/power-ups concept.

Quote:Yes you were, but you're losing ground so you're changing your argument.

Quote:I love many of those old 2D racers and the Cruisin' games are nothing compared to them. Those games took actual skill to play, while Cruisin' is the easiest piece of crap I've ever suffered through.

Quote:That was the point I was trying to get across when we were still talking about Mario Golf...

Quote:Car platformer? Never heard it called that and don't think it makes any sense whatsoever. It is a racing game with karts and weapons... nothing more.

Yes, you have Mario-ish tracks. So? Every game has a threme... and it makes it stand out but doesn't make it unique. Its not unique anymore...

I haven't played the original Mario Kart much at all, really... I never was talking about Super Mario Kart... just the series in general, mostly MK64 because that's the one I know.

Yes, it (the series) has weapons. And when the first Mario Kart came out it was a small change from what had gone before and was nice. But the weapons and Mario-theme tracks don't make it so unique, any more than any other racing game...

Saying Mario Kart is to Outrun as Gradius is to Wing Commander makes absolutely no sense. its more like what Gradius is to Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth.

Different gameplay systems with the same underlying philosophy.

I see no possible way that anyone could ever say that Mario Kart and games like Cruisn or Outrun are in different genres like Gradius and Wing Commander... its totally insane...

Quote:You are letting your hatred color the objective viewpoint that while you hate that game (or, as GR points out, Serious Sam) they aren't actually bad games -- they are just games in a style you dislike.

There is a critical difference that you refuse to acknowledge. CRITICAL.

*waits to see OB1 ignore this difference and again say "If I hate it it must be bad and terrible and anyone who likes it is a complete moron!" like he always does*

Sure they aren't super deep or anything, but is that REALLY always necessary? What exactly is wrong with 'turn off your brain' games, like simple racing games, shooters, or 2d scrolling shooters like Star Soldier?

Quote:But Wipeout plays very different from any games it takes ideas from... its not completely original sure but not really derivitive. Wipeout plays quite different from those games... of course most to all games aren't truly new, they just improve nicely on older ideas. Wipeout did that. So did Mario Kart.

Quote:As for weapons. IT WASN'T THE FIRST WITH WEAPONS. IT WASN'T THE FIRST WITH POWEUPS ON THE TRACK. It might have had more variety of pickups than games before it, but the idea of weapons on the track was far from new.

Go play, for example, the RC Pro-Am games... there are missile (straight, not homing) and mine pickups in Super RC Pro-Am for GB... more, I believe, in RC Pro-Am 2 for NES...

Quote:Very sorry to break up your whole case, but it was a joke. Obviously it has sufficient differences from the SNES games that you could dislike one and not the other.

Quote:I think you both are remembering those games as being more challenging than they were and haven't played much Cruisn'. Because there is no other way to justify that comment.

Quote:Unlike Mario Kart vs. other racing games, Mario Golf vs other golf games does appear to have something of a real difference. Not so much that its not still golf, of course, though.

Quote:Your ignorance shines through yet again!

Calling Mario Kart a "racing platformer" is accurate because you use most of the items and power-ups from the Mario games and it has that fast of a pace. Now of course you don't jump from platform to platform like you do in Mario Bros., but everything else is very similar. I don't mean platformer in the strictest definition of the word, just that it's Mario Bros. on wheels.

When Mario Kart came out it was very different from any other racing game out there, just as much as Gradius is from Wing Commander. You of course do not know this because you weren't into games back then. Your view on this is from a post-Mario Kart perspective (where most racing games took something from that game) which is very limited, and it only makes you look like a fool when you argue about it.

Quote:I can admire Serious Sam for doing mindless shooting well even if I don't like it, but the Cruisin' games don't do simple racing well! And I'm not the only one that hates the series. Every single Cruisin' game has been critically panned by just about every game reviewer in the world. If you like it, that's fine. But don't try to tell me what makes a good racing game when you enjoy a series that's hated so much by most in the gaming community.

Quote:Wipeout is F-Zero with bad, floaty controls, that's it. Mario Kart revolutionized the genre, WO did not.

Quote:Oh please, now you're trying to compare RC Pro Am to Mario Kart?? I guess you don't consider Mario Bros. innovative because Pitfall was actually the first platformer. It has a few similarties with that game, but almost everything it did was completely new and innovative. Mario Kart is no different.

Quote:But that's not what you originally said. Now you're changing your stance because you are losing.

Quote:Rad Racer (which Cruisin' tries to copy) is a very simple NES racer yet it's infinitely more challenging and fun than any of the Cruisin' games. Outrun is king of the straight-forward 2D racer, and it blows Cruisin' out of the water. There's simply no comparison there.

Quote:Wow, is there any games subject that you're not completely clueless about? Mario Golf is a great, fun golf game with Mario characters, but it was not revolutionary. Mario Kart was!

Quote:I've been into PC games since we got our first one in the beginning of 1992. And GB since getting it in christmas '94. So saying "I wasn't into gaming then" is just false. "I never played much SNES" is true, but that isn't what you said. And anyway... I also was reading Nintendo Power as far back as 1992. And some older back issues, since I mostly got it from the library (they still get it so I still read it there sometimes...). So I wasn't exactly ignorant of Nintendo gaming even years before I had any Nintendo systems...

So there goes that arguement.

Quote:My first experience with Mario Kart was with PC Mario Kart clones Wacky Wheels and Skunny Kart... both clearly rip off Mario Kart and both are quite fun. I like them, especially Wacky Wheels. But just like Mario Kart they are racing games.

I am amazed that you are trying to say Mario Kart isn't a racing game (because that IS what you are saying by saying its as different as Gradius and Wing Commander -- Wing Commander and Gradius aren't in the same genre so by extrapolation you are saying that Mario Kart isn't a racing game... which is a totally insane statement...). IT IS.

YES, it did a few things new! I agree! IT did! BUT ADDING SOME NEW THINGS WHILE EXPANDING ON PREVIOUS THEMES DOESN'T CHANGE THE GENRE OF THE GAME!

It just makes it a unique-at-the-time racing game.

"racing platformer"? Gameplaywise it makes absolutely no sense. None. Mario Kart has nothing to do with platformers... except the fact that it looks like its set in Mario World. Setting it in Mario World doesn't mean that its a platformer, it means its a racing game with a Mario theme.

It plays like a R A C I N G game, not a platformer... the gameplay has nothing in common with platformers so I don't see where you get this arguement from.

What will you say to try to save your failed arguement now, that Gradius and Wing Commander are in the same genre?

Quote:If 5's up to 7's means 'panned' and 'hated so much by most in the gaming community' means 'by OB1' then yes. I'd say 'mediocre reviews' myself, since that's a more accurate term...

And you'd have to show me proof that its "hated by the gaming community", because I've never seen any. That's because its not. It might be thought of as a somewhat mediocre series, but 'hated'? No, way too strong term there. "Very simple to the point of possibly too simple, and not original" sounds closer to what reviews say... they do not say "wow these games stink!" At least not usually.

And anyway its not like I'm the only person who likes it, as GR prooves.

Gamespot Cruisn Exotica review... its a 5.8, but by reading the review I see that its exactly the kind of thing I'd like.
http://www.gamespot.com/n64/driving...ica/review.html

Quote:Yeah there goes that argu-- oh wait, that means absolutely nothing! You played the PC and Gameboy back then--not exactly great racing platforms. All of the best racing games at the time were out for the arcades and consoles.

Quote:I never said that Mario Kart isn't in the same genre as other racing games, dummy. I said that it revolutionized the genre like Mario Bros. did to platformers (well not quite that much, but still). Gradius and Wing Commander are both space shooters so they belong to the same genre. They are just in different sub-genres. Gran Turismo is a racing sim (like WC is a space sim), and Mario Kart is a cart racer (would you call it a racing sim? I sure hope not!), a completely different sub-genre. Your inability to see the major differences between Mario Kart and Gran Turismo is very sad. And then you try to downplay Mario Kart's significance because it's been copied by just about every single racing game that came after it? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!!

Quote:Want proof? Here you go!

IGN gave Cruis'n USA a 4.0, CVG (Britain's best multiplatform mag) gave it a 1/5, Nintendojo gave it a 4/10, etc.

The average score of Cruis'n USA is 47.8%, Cruis'n World a 59.0% and Cruis'n Exotica a 56.7%. That's pretty crappy.

Quote:Hey, lets watch OB1 ignore the part of my post that doesn't support his opinion!

Sure reading isn't the same as playing but its something...

And its not like there weren't great racing games on the PC... though admittedly they were better on consoles, its not like PC racing games were so far behind. At least not by '94...

Quote:First, you did say Mario Kart isn't a racing game, since Wing Commander is a space simulator and Gradius a scrolling action shooter. Those are not even remotely the same genre.

Unless you say Contra is in the same genre as Doom, because in both you run and shoot stuff? Its like that, except even less similar.

Oh wow. You actually did it. You said that Gradius and Wing Commander are in the same genre. As I thought, you retreat when your position becomes untenable... In that case... WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?????? THEY HAVE N_O_T_H_I_N_G IN COMMON!!!! THEY ARE NOT IN ANY DELUSIONAL WAY IN THE SAME GENRE!

Now if you'd said "like Mario Bros. to Pitfall" I might have been closer to agreeing... I wouldn't have, because as you say it didn't change the genre its in as much as SMB, but I'd at least understand your point.

But you didn't. You said Gradius and Wing Commander.

So lets look at those games.

Gradius. Top-down, sideways-scrolling ship shooter. Fly forward and kill everything, while avoiding the obstacles. Extremely simple side-scrolling shooter where you shoot stuff before it hits you.

Wing Commander. Simulation of starfighter combat, from a somewhat but not overly arcadish perspective. Fairly deep simulation of their interpretation of starfighter combat... that gets deeper and more complex with each game in the series.

How you put these in the same genre is a total mystery to me.

At least for Gran Turismo... yes that is also a sim but it has essential themes in common with Outrun or Mario Kart -- you are in a race. You try to win that race. You have to go around a track in a car/vehicle. Similarities that clearly put them in the racing genre, however vast the differences in gameplay are.

With Gradius and Wing Commander... you are in a ship. Nothing else is even remotely in common. ('you shoot badguys' you say? Yes, but in both the way you shoot baddies and the method to playing the game is so dramatically different that there is no way its even remotely similar...)

You might have been thinking of Star Fox, because THAT is a 3d version of a Gradius-ish game. Not Wing Commander. Star Fox and Gradius ARE different subgenres of the same genre... yes, like cart racers and racing sims.

Okay. Mario Kart revolutionized the kart racer. It improved weapons from previous games, putting a wide variety of them out there to use. It used new technology to look graphically unique. Those are changes to the racing genre, sure... and Mario Kart should be recognized for that.

But it didn't virtually create or totally change a genre like Super Mario Brothers or Wing Commander. It just introduced some new and improved ideas that succeeded and, like all great games, got cloned.

Quote:Oh, Gamespot gave USA a 6.1, World a 5.9, and Exotica a 5.6. And yes they didn't get much above that from other places. All I can say is that I've always felt that Cruis'n review scores were too low.

Quote:Originally posted by big guy
so, i was thinking that i'd like to pick this game up. i never bought the first one, but rented, and enjoyed it. i do with this game had the RPG features of the GBA version, but alas, it seems that more powerful hardware only means better graphics, not improved features.

that's not to say that mario golf:TT doesn't have more features than its predecessor...it does have the fantasy courses...but i'm not terribly interested in those. i'm glad that there are four regular themed courses to play through before i have to deal with the warp pipes and stuff. the warp pipes do sound interesting though, and seem like they could be fun, i'm just glad that, after reading reviews, i know that there are regular old realistic courses. that's one thing i liked about mario golf 64...it had mario characters and mario style trees, but the courses weren't over the top...they could have been built. it was a nice golf sim and i'm glad that the GC version carries on and expands the tradition, rather than straying from it.

so after that long winded explanation of my reasoning on wanting to buy the game, i think i'll end this by saying that i do want to buy the game, i just don't know when i'll get around to it.

Quote:Mario Kart is different from Gran Turismo and Cruisin' World.

Mario Golf is different from Tiger Woods '03.

That is the point both OB1 and I are trying to make, but you refuse to believe that MK is a different kind of racer than those games. Why? I have no idea. True, it is a racer, but it has weapons, powerups, fantasy-style course, ect., that make it different from other games in the racing genre. Yes, Wipeout has most of these things too, but can you honestly tell me that Wipeout is the exact same type of racing game that MK is?

Quote:The main difference between Gradius and Wing Commander is the perspective, and Mario Kart has many more major differences with other games in its genre.

Quote:First of all, I never said that Mario Kart isn't a racing game.

Quote:Mario Kart revolutionized the "kart racing genre"??! It was the first game of its kind, you dolt!! Before Mario Kart all you had were straight-forward racing games like Rad Racer and Outrun! The only similarity Mario Kart had with previous racing games is the fact that you raced around a track, and if you think that that's all that makes a racing game then you truley are more ignorant than any one of us ever imagined.

Quote:Gamespot's Cruis'n scores were way too high, but most sites got it right.

Quote:Have I mentioned that you're the biggest hypocrite I've ever met in my entire life? Well there it is again just in case you missed it before. You dumb down Gran Turismo and Mario Kart by saying that you "just race around a track", but when you compare Gradius and Wing Commander you say that "well you're in a ship and you shoot stuff but the way you shoot is different". So you race in GT the same way you do in MK???

Quote:When you put it that way, I agree. Mario Kart is to Mario Golf as Gran Turismo is to Links.

What I was really doing in these last few posts was picking on OB1's word choices, not on his opinions... and man, did it annoy him...

I SAID that Wipeout is different from Mario Kart! I said that in one of my last few posts! When exactly have I said Mario Kart is the same as Wipeout? I didn't.

Oh, and that may be your point, and I don't disagree much with that... what I am disagreeing with is OB1's other points... which he has mostly rescinded so we don't have much left to argue.


Okay... how about we make this clearer.

Quote:You've played both those games and can say that with a straight face? Impressive... because it makes no sense.

Wing Commander is a Space Flight Sim. A early, and more arcadey, space flight sim... but a space flight sim.

Now... for the very first Wing Commander I can see some reason why you could say that it takes themes from Gradius. But it changes them so dramatically in the implementation that I see no conclusion to draw other than that its a new genre. Because space flight sims have depth. Complex flight controls. Flight systems. Story depth. Mission variety. AND EVERYTHING ELSE!

Are you honestly saying that TIE Fighter and R-Type are in the same genre? Uhhhh.... *backs away slowly*

Quote:Oh, Elite. Of course I've heard of Elite. Haven't played it myself, but heard about it plenty. Privateer was sort of like it, with the open-ended galaxy exploration and trading... Why exactly would you think I haven't heard of Elite? And where do I say that Wing Commander was the first space flight sim?

Yeah, I don't. So why do you say that I did?

Quote:Yeah, I know now. But when you look at that comment from my perspective it really looked like you were, because I never thought that you'd consider those games in the same genre when it is so clear that they are not...

Quote:Fine, it created the kart racing genre. Happy now?

As for Contra and Doom... yes, I can see a connection there. It is much clearer, so I admit that that was a bad example.

Quote:I would probably give them scores in the upper 7's. To me, they deserve that score. I know you disagree, but its just a matter of opinion and isn't something you can empirically claim you are right about for everyone.


Finally.

Quote:Try reading what I've written in this thread again, then thinking about it.

Now... that isn't what I meant. Or what I said.

You are taking two completely sepearate arguements I was making and combining them.

Quote:Racing games. Racing has some requirements for a game to be a racing game. You need to be going for some kind of finish line somehow, along some sort of track. Obviously. All I was saying there was that those are all racing games, because they all contain the fundamental things that make games racing games, even though in gameplay they are quite different (look back, I said something to that effect).

Quote:On the other hand, I do NOT put space flight sims in the same genre as scrolling ship shooters. They are in the same genre as FLIGHT SIMS, not scrolling shooters... sure, Wing Commander was a fairly arcadey space flight sim, but its still a space flight sim and not a scrolling shooter...

Oh, and is this a good time to mention that as with all these games I'm referring to Wing Commander the series in general, not the first game in specific?

So. If you think I'm so stupid, how about giving me your reasoning for your strange decision that space flight sims should be considered to be in the same genre as scrolling shooters. Is Elite in the same genre as Gradius too? I certainly would say NO WAY... same to TIE Fighter, Freespace 2, or any other space flight sim...

I will say one thing. There are some 3d spaceship-based games that ARE offshoots of the scrolling ship shooter. Some examples are Sinistar Unleashed, Bang! Gunship 2000, Star Wars Starfighter, the Star Fox series, and the Rogue Squadron games.

Also, I will admit that Wing Commander is one of the most arcadey of the space flight sim serieses, so you can make a better case for that one than for any of the others I can think of.

However... I, at least, do see enough differences that I would put the Wing Commander series as a space flight sim, child of the flight sim genre, and not a space-based action game, child of the 2d scrolling ship shooters.

I guess it just depends where you draw the line. You clearly draw a a loose line between these genres, and I draw a tighter one.

But I don't see how you can honestly say that Mario Kart is to Gran Turismo as Gradius is to Wing Commander. Because at least to my eyes there are far more differences between Gradius and Wing Commander than there are between the two racing games.

Sure, it is absolutely true that Mario Kart and Gran Turismo are dramatically different ideas of racing games. I've never denied, or even pretended to deny, that fact.

I'm just saying that I see even more dramatic differences between the other two games.

Quote:You guys get into the longest argument over the most trivial things.

All I know is, I can't wait for Mario Kart, and if so many others are drooling over it, it must have something that sets it apart. Maybe it's the tracks, maybe it's the weapons, the carts, the characters, or maybe it's just the Nintendo Difference .

That's all I need to know.

Quote:Mario Golf is not to Tiger Woods as Mario Kart is to Gran Turismo. Mario Golf did nothing innovative (in fact it's pretty much just Hot Shots Golf with Mario--developed by the same people), while MK completely revolutionized the racing genre.

Quote:You said "But it didn't virtually create or totally change a genre like Super Mario Brothers or Wing Commander", which is complete bullshit as Mario Kart was a hundred times more innovative than Wing Commander. All Wing Commander introduced was a crappy story and better graphics than Elite. Your definition of "innovation" is laughable.

Quote:Yes, Mario Kart is as much different from the racing games that came before it as something like the original 2D Wolfenstein (or Contra) is to Doom. MK changed the genre in many more ways than Doom did to shooters, but there was no drastic perspective change so people like you just shrug it off. And while Mario Kart did create its own sub-genre (a massive sub-genre), it had an influence on just about every single racing game that came after it, including Wipeout.

Quote:Exactly, they differ in implementation, just as drastically as Mario Kart does with Gran Turismo. Your inability to make these simple distinction is because of the fact that in your mind the only real difference that matters is perspective, which is so inane that words cannot describe it.

Quote:ALL shooters belong to the same genre. Contra, Gradius, Doom, and Wing Commander. They are all seperated by distinct sub-genres. WC isn't nearly enough "sim-like" to truley belong in the sim genre, and you know that.

Let me follow your rules by comparing Gradius to Wing Commander. All shooter share a few basic traits: shooting, flying, and dodging enemy fire. You stripped down racing games to similar basic qualities, and now I'm doing the same thing for space shooters. If Wing Commander didn't have that very simple perspective change and was played from a top-down angle like Gradius (with all of that shield management, etc. retained) would you still call it drastically different from the likes of Gradius? No, you wouldn't. So the only major difference you can find is a paper-thin perspective difference.

Quote:I didn't bring up the scores to show that you shouldn't like the games, I brought them up because you were trying to objectively state which racing games are good, even though you like so many critically-panned ones.

Quote:You think I like doing this?? I don't, but I can't just let him get away with saying these ridiculous things.

Quote:I didn't mean innovation-wise, I meant arcadey vs simlike...

Quote:Okay, that was wrong. Elite was first. But Wing Commander did create a subgenre of simpler ones... Elite and Wing Commander have quite different focuses.

Quote:I just can't agree there. Contra to Doom is a bigger change than, say, Outrun to Mario Kart... at least to me... Contra to Doom has a whole perspective and gameplay control shift, while Outrun to Mario Kart doesn't! You say that it had a huge impact one many other things (not perspective), and yes, in some it did... but still... while there are huge differences between it and games before it, for sure, they just aren't on the level of early FPSes vs. sidescrolling action games. Sorry... I just don't think that it was that dramatic.

They differ drastically, but not nearly as drastically as Gradius and Wing Commander.

Quote:Okay, okay, Wing Commander is a simplistic space sim. I know.

Now... if you took TIE Fighter and put it topdown, I'd still argue that its much more a sim than an action game. But Wing Commander admittedly is a simpler game.

Honestly, I never really liked Wing Commander's 'kill group of enemies, warp to next group, kill them, warp to next group, kill them, end mission' gameplay... so simple, compared to better space sims...

Try this arguement with X-Wing, TIE Fighter, I-War, Battlecruiser, Freespace, X, or a dozen other games and you'd lose. Because those just AREN'T ACTION GAMES!

You only have any kind of case because Wing Commander is just about the least simlike space sim there is.

Its just absurd that I have to spend time defending the obvious fact that space sims are sims and not mindless action games...

Quote:"So many"? Like what?

Other than Cruis'n.

Hmm... lets see. Racing games I like a lot.

F-Zero X, Wipeout 64, Rush 2, Rush 2049, Micro Machines, Pod, Moto Racer 2, Rollcage Stage II, Death Rally, Hydro Thunder, Excitebike 64... except for Hydro Thunder and Pod, which got many midrange scores, those all got fairly good numbers...

Quote:Not really.

Quote:Yeah, Elite has more depth to it.

Quote:The only difference between Contra and Doom is perspective and controls, but the differences between Outrun and Mario Kart are large and numerous. No more driving in a straight line, insane weapons and power-ups which completely changed the way the game was played, close battles with other vehicles instead of just seeing on car fly right by you like in Outrun, the power-slide (one of the most innovative aspects of Mario Kart which everyone copied), arena battles, etc. The list goes on.

Quote:The first two Rush games and POD are pretty crappy.

Quote:Definitely.

Quote:Mr. "you're are hypocrite" is a hypocrite himself! Doom and Contra have far, far more differences than that, and you know it! Don't be THAT stupid...

Lets see. Perspective. Controls. Enemy type. Levels. Game style. Genre. More. They are very different! Yes, in both you shoot people. Sure. But in Doom you run around in 3d shooting enemies (which often take many hits to kill)... and then get keys to open doors. While in Contra you shoot usually 1-shot-kills enemies and deal with progressively harder jumping puzzles as a part of the game at least as important as the shooting. Thats just not in Doom.

Quote:I maintain that they have more differences than Outrun and Mario Kart.

Quote:Oh, and its not like its the first racing game where you drive in laps, either. Lots of racers had done THAT before, and plenty had done laps and some weapons... sure MK did more weapons than before, and powerslides, and used the technology for circuit-based 3d racing (often circuit-based games before had been topdown), so yes, it had some big changes. But most of them were totally new -- they were mostly improvements on what had come before.

Quote:Rush 2. 8.9 at your precious IGN. Sure does stink, huh?

http://ign64.ign.com/articles/153/153852p1.html

I haven't played Rush 1 on N64, so can't judge it, but Rush 2 is a great game. Lots of tracks, they are long, some nice cars... sure it doesn't match 2049 but it IS a great game.

As for Pod, YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED THE GAME!

Quote:Doom is not a 3D game. It's about as 3D as those "tennis court" areas in Contra. Doom is Contra but in a different perspective and no jumping. OooOOOooh! What amazing differences! And they have different enemies?? Holy crap, that makes them nothing alike!

Quote:That's complete crap. There may have been other "lap racers" in the past, but none like F-Zero and Mario Kart. The weapons and power-ups in Mario Kart were never done before, not even close. The powerslide was such a huge innovation that even the most sim-like of racing games today use it (Gran Turismo, for one). And then there's the battle mode which hadn't been done before and was a major addition to the genre (and actually, creating a whole new sub-genre). Where do you think the car combat genre came from?

Quote:That game got a high score from ign because there was nothing to compare it with on the N64. I have played POD, and it's really, really bad.

Quote:Well obviously they have plenty of similarities, just like Outrun and Mario Kart... and 'different perspective and no jumping' creates a dramatically different game.

Oh, and if you want to just compare it to the 3d parts of Contra say so. Because otherwise it also includes the 2d levels which have little in common with Doom except for the fact you shoot stuff with guns.

Quote:It wasn't the first behind-the-car lap racing game. Obviously. Yes, it did use the new technology (just like F-Zero)... and that is good, and innovative.

And F-Zero did the laps/mode-7 thing first. Mario Kart has the powerslide and weapons, not laps/graphics, as new features.

Quote:I never said Mario Kart didn't add some big new features to the genre... I've said all along that it did. I just think it was slightly less influential on the games after it than you -- that some of those features weren't new.

Yes it added a lot of stuff. It didn't do much truly new except for powerslides, but it did a good job of improving previous games in various ways... as all great evolutionary games do.

Quote:As for battle mode... yeah, that was a great idea. It probably would have happened anyway, but Mario Kart did have it pretty early... not that shooting vehicles in arenas was a new idea (its a very old idea), but the way it presented it was.

Quote:First... the N64 is easily my favorite console for racing games. Nothing else compares.

Next... Rush got a good score (Rush 1 also got a 8.9) BECAUSE THEY ARE GREAT GAMES! Rush is easily one of the best arcade racing game serieses out there... all three games are great, and each one improves on the one before it. Maybe you don't like it as much, but Rush has a LOT of fans. I am one of them... and the IGN reviewer who reviewed those three games.

Go to Gamespot if you want Rush reviews in the 7's...

As for Pod (you said you'd only played the DC one, not the far better PC version...), I know it didn't get the best scores, but its just so much fun to play... its a great, great pure racing arcade racing game.

Quote:Actually the way Doom plays is very similar to something like Contra, and I'm not just talking about the fake 3D parts. In Doom you can only shoot along one horizontal line, in Contra you can only shoot in eight directions; in Contra all you do if fight hoards of enemies, in Doom all you do is fight hoards of enemies and find keys. Perspective is only paper-thin and if that's the only thing you can think of then you have a very limited imagination.

Quote:I never said that Mario Kart was technically innovative.

Quote:The only thing that Mario Kart didn't completely change in that genre was the fact that you raced around a track. EVERYTHING else in the game is very innovative and changed the entire genre. Mario 3 is evolutionary, but Mario Kart is revolutionary.

Mario Kart did to the racing genre what Mario 64 did to the platform genre. And how do you define "revolution"? A sudden or momentous change in a situation. That is exactly what Mario Kart caused, but you of course would not know that since you did not play console games until the end of the N64's life.

This is getting very tiresome since you obviously don't know what you're talking about, so just quit trying to save your ego.

Quote:"It probably would have happened anyway"??? Oh now that's rich! You're losing this argument so badly that now you're trying to use that lame excuse. So I guess Wolfestein 3D really isn't that innovative since the FPS genre probably would have happened anyway, or the inventor of the toaster oven shouldn't be given any credit since the toaster probably would have been invented by someone else.

This is getting very pathetic, ABF.

Quote:The N64 may have a bunch of good unrealistic racers in its library, but at the time Rush 2 came out there weren't really any good regular car racers available.

Quote:You are still ignoring the critical difference that Contra has LOTS of platform jumping and Doom has pretty much none... that makes for very different gameplay!

Quote:True. But you use such broad terms with it that it would be easy to infer that you sort of meant it.

Quote:Fine. Lets just drop it. This clearly is going absolutely nowhere... "it was extremely innovative" "no, it was pretty innovative but not extremely innovative" "your an idiot no it was extremely innovative!" etc....

Then all I'll say is that, IMO, F-Zero is more fun that Mario Kart. The SNES games.

Quote:There were already games where you drove around a arena and shot stuff.

There were games where you drove around a track and shot stuff.

Mario Kart just combined the two first, with a better variety of weapons than before.

Quote:Oh, and Wolf 3D wasn't the first FPS. ID made one before it...

Quote:I don't really like realistic racing games so I see absolutely nothing wrong with their lack on n64.

Quote:So that's the best thing you can up with? One has jumping and other doesn't??

Quote:You refuse to admit that Mario Kart revolutionized the genre, which it did. And that's not just my own little opinion; it's an objective fact. Unless of course you want to use that stupid "well it would have happened anyhow" retort.

Quote:Which games?

Quote:Uh, no they didn't. Before Wolfenstein 3D came out they made a bunch of 2D games (Commander Keen, Wolfenstein "2D", etc.) and a sorta-3D tank game.

Quote:That wasn't my point. My point was that N64 owners were hungry for regular car racers so they were willing to accept just about anynthing, although many N64 owners later looked back on the Rush games and saw how average they were (2049 excluded)

Quote:Come on, if you've played these games you'd know how platformer vs straight shooter is a fairly big difference...

Quote:It changed the genre... but 'revolutionized'? Just too strong a term.

Quote:I've already mentioned several track racing shooting games.

As for arena ones, as I said nothing exactly like it... I don't know exactly what had come out before that, really. Not multiplayer-wise. Of course there's stuff like Battlezone but that's different.

Quote:http://www.idsoftware.com/games/vin...=true&version=6
http://www.idsoftware.com/games/vin...=true&version=6

http://www.3dgamers.com/games/catacomb3d/

Okay Hovertank isn't exactly a FPS but its very, very close.

Catacomb 3D, however, is the first FPS. Or at least it sure looks like it to me. It was before Wolf, that's for sure.

http://rinkworks.com/apogee/s/2.7.2.shtml

ID made Wolf 3D after Apogee saw Catacomb and wanted ID to make a shareware 3d game for them.

And there might have been other FPSes, not on the PC, before Hovertank... not sure about that. Sorry, Wolf 3d wasn't first. It was just the best in its genre at the time it came out.

Quote:"Average"? Absolutely not! Rush 2 is far above average, that's for sure...

Quote:There's nothing like it! Battlezone is absolutely nothing like Twisted Metal or the battle mode in Mario Kart. It's a TANK game!

Quote:Removing jumping doesn't make a drastically different game.

Quote:It's perfectly appropriate for Mario Kart. As I said before, revolution means "Marked by or resulting in radical change", which is what Mario Kart did! It brought about a radical change to the racing genre, and it's pointless for you to try to refute that.

Quote:So there you have it.

Quote:Must we go over the whole "you have low standards for racing games" thing all over again?

Quote:Not 'absolutely nothing'... not much, sure, but not nothing. After all in both you have a first-person viewpoint and have to drive around shooting at enemies in a field. Sure its not all that similar, but that IS a similarity in its most basic sense.

Quote:As for car combat, the first one I could find mention of is 1993's Battle Wheels for Atari Lynx... not sure if there was one before that. As for Twisted Metal, when did the first one of those come out?

Quote:Its different. But I would call both action games, for sure.

Quote:It really is pointless to argue over semantics like this...

Quote:Yeah, whether or not it was the first FPS depends on how you define FPS. If you go by gameplay, it wasn't.

Quote:Its not low standards. Its what I like in racing games.

For instance... I know that F1 and NASCAR games are technically well done. However, to me, they are no fun at all... while Cruis'n, which I know is nowhere near as good as the best racing games, I find to be fun. Simple fun, and probably more fun when you don't play it that often (which is why i never bought one for n64 -- there are a lot of n64 games that are much more deserving of my money...), but fun nonetheless.

Oh, and I love how you take my list of great racing games, pull out a couple of them that you have issues with, and ignore the rest... because you know those are all good games, maybe?