22nd May 2005, 4:56 PM
OB1, I was joking. I don't really think Palpatine did it to see if he could. (Though I would...) Actually I think the general sith philosophy on life explains his motives plenty well enough, though how he came to have those motives isn't explained... well eh, it's okay.
Also, regarding the cartoon comment I made. You misunderstood. I wasn't talking about power when I called him a wuss. (They seemed pretty much equal im power from cartoon to movie anyway if you ask me.) I was talking about something that actually matters, his personality. In the cartoon he was a badarse hunter that mercilessly killed many jedi. In the movie, he was a wuss that ran at every opportunity and could barely hold his own against ONE jedi, and he was comic relief! I thought I was supposed to be afraid of him, not laugh at him rolling his hands in a tribute to villians tying women to railroad tracks everywhere.
One thing to make clear. I like star wars. I LIKE it, I don't love it. I enjoy it but I hardly have to consider it perfect because of that. I see the errors but it's no big deal if I'm just there to see a fun little story for the moment that people won't remember 100 years from now.
Memory as proof of excellence? I remember a LOT of really bad stuff in detail. You mention the Ninja Turtles pretty much everyone knows what you are talking about, but they sucked. Star Wars doesn't "suck" but it's just not the extreme amazingness some people assume. It's just a fun little movie. Oh, and asm, I consider pretty much every comic book hero to be shallow, and pretty much every comic book that I've read, so far anyway, has been a shallow pathetic story with all the depth that the 10 year old reading it may be capable of.
I also wanted to say one more thing. I am aware of what Lucas is doing. Here, more than the previous movies, though it was fairly obvious there too, it was VERY clear that it was meant as a nonstop tribute to cheesy 1940's sci-fi serials. But, he chose like the WORST things to make a tribute to. The acting in some parts was pretty nice. It was both good and a nice tribute to the past. For example, I thought Obi Wan and Anakin's shouting match after The Delimbing (apparently "having the high ground" is the greatest weakness of a sith/jedi, I should remember that) was very well done actually. It was the only part of the whole movie where I actually felt some emotion, and it was pretty strong. The scene where he took out the lightsaber in front of the "younglings" (cute word Lucas, what is that supposed to be a reminder that Galactic Basic isn't english? Wow, you are a genius) didn't hit home at all to me. This fanboy... er girl... next to me seemed pretty emotionally hit by it, but to me it was just... ugh. But, I don't think that's because the scene itself was badly done so much as the story leading up to it... well I guess I'll get to this point a little later actually.
Anyway, some of it was pretty good. Other parts just plain sucked though. The love scenes were aweful. I know I know, it was a tribute, but a failed tribute. That didn't sound ANYTHING like the old days. It sounded a lot more like a current day teen drama. I mean it was just PURE teen drama condensed into crystal formations. Let me tell you why I consider these scenes to have failed. I felt ill watching them. I am the viewer. And, what the viewer of a movie feels IS what is important. That is the only way you can really decide whether or not a scene did what it was meant to do is get mass opinions on it. If he had actually succeeded in making a moving love scene, I would have enjoyed the scene. I didn't like it, therefor it wasn't good. Egotistical and self centered? Well yes I suppose it is, but what other method am I supposed to use to determine if it's good or not? It's either my own personal vewpoint, or the overall average of everyone's viewpoints. The latter is the best way to go if you ask me, but this was the first day so I just have myself to go on. I'm not going to have people say "well, you didn't like it but you just don't know what you are supposed to like". Sorry, not my style.
But anyway, for what it did right, and I haven't got into that much yet, there is something it did wrong. What it did right was the slow build up, the steady moving along with Palpatine's extreme patience and the small baby steps. Too bad he screwed it all up right when it came time to make the move to say "come to the dark side!" or he would have if Anakin wasn't such a frickin' idiot. Sorry, but the part where Anakin actually swears himself to the dark side was.. .just... so... badly done. It happened too quickly. Basically, the whole scene just left me saying "um, why did he do that?". It knocked me back into reality pretty frickin' hard. It just felt so FAKE. I know it IS fake, but it wasn't any way any person could possibly ever react to that situation, in ANY circumstances. Whether an exxageration of human behavior, a representation of humanity, an extreme stylized interpretation of human characteristics, or whatever, that scene just was NOT human. I could relate to him up to that point, and I could relate to him AFTER that point if I ignored the scene itself (which is what I did from that point so I could enjoy the movie), but that scene itself...
Basically, that scene consisted of Anakin saying "this isn't the way of a Jedi" even though deep down it was about protecting the one he loves. He, at least the way the scene was designed, clearly only wanted to STOP Mace from killing Palpy (as if he could right?), and he actually was all distraught over what he just did. And yet, RIGHT after that, 10 seconds later, he SWEARS HIMSELF to the frickin' dark side and agrees to kill every single jedi in existance. What the hell? There's no way any real person would EVER make a decision that quickly.
Final Fantasy 7's Sephiroth had a much better "fall from his role as the chosen one". At least there he spent a whole night constantly reading books after finding out something shocking that made him question his existance, and there was a show of him actually slowly "seeing" things and "realizing" the darkness was the way to go. Anakin just sort of said "eh, I've got nothing left to lose, why not?" even though he DID still have stuff to lose. That whole scene was akin to one of those caught on camera high speed police chases where some stupid teenager is afraid of getting caught so he instead just keeps doing more and more stupid things just making it worse and worse for himself, only even THERE there's a progression from bad to worse, even if it's quick, not "what have I done?!" to "yes my master I will MURDER CHILDREN". Having him mad at Palpatine and running off for a time to think about everything he's seen and actually come TO a decision would have been a lot better. Instead, with the entire saga of Star Wars told at last, my final opinion of Darth Vader is that he was a stupid punk teenager who went to the dark side, in the end, as the final straw, just because he was afraid of being caught helping a sith. Darth Vader is an idiot.
And here's why that is a problem. Say what you will, perhaps explain that with normal humans sure there is progression, but with a Jedi the force can cause total personality shifts in the weak that, to an outside observer, appear to be rash and completely unthought out. That's all well and good, but it's stupid. I can't relate to that. Every good story, no matter how implausible the physics are, even if there are aliens running about, at least has some sort of touchstone for all the important parts that let you, as a human being, relate to the characters at an emotional or rational level. Take that away and you just have a bunch of stuff that happened that you can't relate to at all, and if you can't relate to it, you can't possibly get into it.
Also, regarding the cartoon comment I made. You misunderstood. I wasn't talking about power when I called him a wuss. (They seemed pretty much equal im power from cartoon to movie anyway if you ask me.) I was talking about something that actually matters, his personality. In the cartoon he was a badarse hunter that mercilessly killed many jedi. In the movie, he was a wuss that ran at every opportunity and could barely hold his own against ONE jedi, and he was comic relief! I thought I was supposed to be afraid of him, not laugh at him rolling his hands in a tribute to villians tying women to railroad tracks everywhere.
One thing to make clear. I like star wars. I LIKE it, I don't love it. I enjoy it but I hardly have to consider it perfect because of that. I see the errors but it's no big deal if I'm just there to see a fun little story for the moment that people won't remember 100 years from now.
Memory as proof of excellence? I remember a LOT of really bad stuff in detail. You mention the Ninja Turtles pretty much everyone knows what you are talking about, but they sucked. Star Wars doesn't "suck" but it's just not the extreme amazingness some people assume. It's just a fun little movie. Oh, and asm, I consider pretty much every comic book hero to be shallow, and pretty much every comic book that I've read, so far anyway, has been a shallow pathetic story with all the depth that the 10 year old reading it may be capable of.
I also wanted to say one more thing. I am aware of what Lucas is doing. Here, more than the previous movies, though it was fairly obvious there too, it was VERY clear that it was meant as a nonstop tribute to cheesy 1940's sci-fi serials. But, he chose like the WORST things to make a tribute to. The acting in some parts was pretty nice. It was both good and a nice tribute to the past. For example, I thought Obi Wan and Anakin's shouting match after The Delimbing (apparently "having the high ground" is the greatest weakness of a sith/jedi, I should remember that) was very well done actually. It was the only part of the whole movie where I actually felt some emotion, and it was pretty strong. The scene where he took out the lightsaber in front of the "younglings" (cute word Lucas, what is that supposed to be a reminder that Galactic Basic isn't english? Wow, you are a genius) didn't hit home at all to me. This fanboy... er girl... next to me seemed pretty emotionally hit by it, but to me it was just... ugh. But, I don't think that's because the scene itself was badly done so much as the story leading up to it... well I guess I'll get to this point a little later actually.
Anyway, some of it was pretty good. Other parts just plain sucked though. The love scenes were aweful. I know I know, it was a tribute, but a failed tribute. That didn't sound ANYTHING like the old days. It sounded a lot more like a current day teen drama. I mean it was just PURE teen drama condensed into crystal formations. Let me tell you why I consider these scenes to have failed. I felt ill watching them. I am the viewer. And, what the viewer of a movie feels IS what is important. That is the only way you can really decide whether or not a scene did what it was meant to do is get mass opinions on it. If he had actually succeeded in making a moving love scene, I would have enjoyed the scene. I didn't like it, therefor it wasn't good. Egotistical and self centered? Well yes I suppose it is, but what other method am I supposed to use to determine if it's good or not? It's either my own personal vewpoint, or the overall average of everyone's viewpoints. The latter is the best way to go if you ask me, but this was the first day so I just have myself to go on. I'm not going to have people say "well, you didn't like it but you just don't know what you are supposed to like". Sorry, not my style.
But anyway, for what it did right, and I haven't got into that much yet, there is something it did wrong. What it did right was the slow build up, the steady moving along with Palpatine's extreme patience and the small baby steps. Too bad he screwed it all up right when it came time to make the move to say "come to the dark side!" or he would have if Anakin wasn't such a frickin' idiot. Sorry, but the part where Anakin actually swears himself to the dark side was.. .just... so... badly done. It happened too quickly. Basically, the whole scene just left me saying "um, why did he do that?". It knocked me back into reality pretty frickin' hard. It just felt so FAKE. I know it IS fake, but it wasn't any way any person could possibly ever react to that situation, in ANY circumstances. Whether an exxageration of human behavior, a representation of humanity, an extreme stylized interpretation of human characteristics, or whatever, that scene just was NOT human. I could relate to him up to that point, and I could relate to him AFTER that point if I ignored the scene itself (which is what I did from that point so I could enjoy the movie), but that scene itself...
Basically, that scene consisted of Anakin saying "this isn't the way of a Jedi" even though deep down it was about protecting the one he loves. He, at least the way the scene was designed, clearly only wanted to STOP Mace from killing Palpy (as if he could right?), and he actually was all distraught over what he just did. And yet, RIGHT after that, 10 seconds later, he SWEARS HIMSELF to the frickin' dark side and agrees to kill every single jedi in existance. What the hell? There's no way any real person would EVER make a decision that quickly.
Final Fantasy 7's Sephiroth had a much better "fall from his role as the chosen one". At least there he spent a whole night constantly reading books after finding out something shocking that made him question his existance, and there was a show of him actually slowly "seeing" things and "realizing" the darkness was the way to go. Anakin just sort of said "eh, I've got nothing left to lose, why not?" even though he DID still have stuff to lose. That whole scene was akin to one of those caught on camera high speed police chases where some stupid teenager is afraid of getting caught so he instead just keeps doing more and more stupid things just making it worse and worse for himself, only even THERE there's a progression from bad to worse, even if it's quick, not "what have I done?!" to "yes my master I will MURDER CHILDREN". Having him mad at Palpatine and running off for a time to think about everything he's seen and actually come TO a decision would have been a lot better. Instead, with the entire saga of Star Wars told at last, my final opinion of Darth Vader is that he was a stupid punk teenager who went to the dark side, in the end, as the final straw, just because he was afraid of being caught helping a sith. Darth Vader is an idiot.
And here's why that is a problem. Say what you will, perhaps explain that with normal humans sure there is progression, but with a Jedi the force can cause total personality shifts in the weak that, to an outside observer, appear to be rash and completely unthought out. That's all well and good, but it's stupid. I can't relate to that. Every good story, no matter how implausible the physics are, even if there are aliens running about, at least has some sort of touchstone for all the important parts that let you, as a human being, relate to the characters at an emotional or rational level. Take that away and you just have a bunch of stuff that happened that you can't relate to at all, and if you can't relate to it, you can't possibly get into it.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)