8th May 2004, 6:00 PM
Loose if the guy with the sword started next to him? Um, no? The guy with the sword would still be shot before he could swing. "hiyaaa *bang*... ouch...."
Um, Neverwinter Nights is not a terrible D&D game "by all accounts". Yeesh, a HUGE number of people really love the game. The expression "by all accounts" DOES require ALL accounts to actually be that way for you to be able to say it you know, not just a large number. PA also seemed to love it, and their opinions are ones I usually agree with. My friends and I also enjoyed it. Yes though, the single player campaign included with it IS pretty aweful. It's pretty much this big stereotyped story with the main flaw of too many US RPGs. That flaw, if you ask me, is emphasizing everything WAY too much, like the narrator is literely trying to BASH the supposed deepness emotion and history into your skull with a hammer. The other expansions are nice enough, though honestly when I say it's great, I'm talking about the custom campaigns. You may not play them much, but disregarding a feature as unimportant just because you didn't like it isn't exactly nice. Honestly, it's about the biggest part of it. That's where all the fun comes from. So, if you don't care for custom maps, I suppose that's one thing, but honestly, don't disregard the game as bad for EVERYONE based on something you alone don't like, but is obviuosly VERY popular.
The diff between other players and the "henchmen" is that you can actually strategize with the other humans and they are actually able to think. It's a much fuller experience that way, and it really feels like you are on an adventure with a party, even if you don't control them. I do however believe in the future they should add at least the ABILITY to control multiple characters, fully, at once. Wouldn't be long before fully controllable extra characters are added to custom campaigns.
Just to make it clear, I said from the start a little randomness thrown in for spice is fine. I just don't like it to be dominating. You seem to be really aggressive about this issue. Really, I'm only saying I don't like it when randomness replaces skill, as in the early parts of D&D games.
Now, I know you don't think that's the case, and that's fine. I'm not saying you are wrong. I am however saying that that's how I see it, and all things considered, I think that should be enough. Just let it be.
Regarding FF8, no the actual damage formula itself isn't actually explained, but all you need to do is see what damage you are doing, how much a few stat gains affect it, and then from there you instantly have all you need to draw upon to figure it out yourself. They don't spell it out sure, but it's hardly hidden. There IS randomness to it, but it's very minor, essentially to spice it up a bit. A standard attack at a certain level that averages 100 won't also be doing 200 and 10, it'll always be in the area of 90-110 or so I'd say. Likewise, a critical, while slightly varied, will always be roughly double what a normal attack is. To analyze the formula for a critical hit, in any of these games, all you need to do is remember what the attack value of a normal hit is and do the math.
You mention that having characters that develop exactly the same is boring, and yes, I see exactly what you mean. In a game like FF1, where the stats are exactly LOCKED into place, it IS in fact boring to play with the same party over and over. There are other things sure, but the stats are always going to be about the same. However, my point is really that, rather than resorting to a random element for THAT particular issue, they give YOU control of stat development to solve the issue in a lot of games. Having the control taken away from me, you see, bores me.
Allow me to give you an example of a way to get the stats varied without resorting to randomness. In Final Fantasy 2, there are no levels at all, not in the traditional sense really. No experience points to be found. Rather, everything you do has a direct and almost immediate effect on your stats in near-real time. If you attack, then after the battle, strength increases. If you use magic, then intelligence or wisdom increases. If you use a bow, your archery ability increases. If you TAKE damage, your defense or HP increases. If you dodge an attack, your evasion rate increases (there's another bit of randomness for you, thrown in at just enough of a level to make it fun without removing too much control from the player). Essentially, every single game you characters can be VASTLY different in their stats. However, very little randomness and in the end, it was you (and in part, the attacks of the enemies) that determined your character's abilities. There are penalties mind you. You raise your strength a lot, and your wisdom and intelligence start going down. The drops aren't as big as the raises mind you, so overall you will always be getting stronger, but you'll really need to decide how you want to develop your characters. You can thus custom form your character to be anything from a powerful black mage, a great white mage, a legendary swordsman, or even a jack of all trades as a red mage, though that type of character won't be as good at any of it's individual abilities as a specialist.
Another example is this. I think I've said it before actually. In FF6 and in FF8, the summoned monsters are well, equipable (as crystals, well, it is Final Fantasy, crystals are kinda needed). A large amount have stat bonuses. The maximum limit is, for most of the stats, the number you can get for equipping the best possible stat boost to that character at their starting level and keeping it there until level 99 (or 100 in the case of FF8). This means you can't max out EVERYTHING in one game. That means you have to choose which stats matter most and emphasize them. THAT means that every game will result in different stats.
You see, there are many solutions to this outside randomness.
I just want to make something clear. As much as I've pretty much ridden randomness into the ground, I don't completely HATE it. I just think it has it's place. If I'm in the mood to actually play a game where chance and skill are pretty much equal in determining the flow of things, then I play Mario Party. I also ENJOY Mario Party. I don't pretend if I win that it was totally do to my skill though, I'm just playing to have fun and win the most minigames possible there, and the randomness is there basically TO take the control away from you, and in that sort of game, that's half the point. When I'm in the mood for a game like that, I play it. However, when I want to play a fighting game, randomness must be much more subdued. For example, I generally always select "random level", and sometimes "random character", however, if my character, during battle, randomly started switching abilities, then I wouldn't be able to control them reliably. That's why I avoid Game & Watch. One of that fellow's moves is totally random, and as a result, isn't something I can depend on in a fix. While the other moves it has are nice, and I don't actually need to depend on the random one, in the end I had to decide it made Game & Watch potentially weaker. I go for the sure thing when it comes to my character's moveset. However, at the same time, the items that randomly appear I DEMAND to be random. Hard to really explain it, but I guess it really does just come down to taste.
I guess all I'm saying is we expect different things from our games, SOME different things anyway. You see, when I say I don't like how at the start, the control is kinda taken away from me and given to the dice, you say you don't even see the control being taken away. At the same time, when you say you like to be able to take your time in a game and MM doesn't allow that, I myself am of the opinion that it gives you plenty of time to do stuff and I always found I had plenty of freedom to explore so long as I dedicated my exploring to one area at a time.
It's really not a big deal. I "get over" it easily enough and I DO still enjoy those games. However, I just wanted to vent a bit about the whole thing. Don't really take it personally or anything.
Um, Neverwinter Nights is not a terrible D&D game "by all accounts". Yeesh, a HUGE number of people really love the game. The expression "by all accounts" DOES require ALL accounts to actually be that way for you to be able to say it you know, not just a large number. PA also seemed to love it, and their opinions are ones I usually agree with. My friends and I also enjoyed it. Yes though, the single player campaign included with it IS pretty aweful. It's pretty much this big stereotyped story with the main flaw of too many US RPGs. That flaw, if you ask me, is emphasizing everything WAY too much, like the narrator is literely trying to BASH the supposed deepness emotion and history into your skull with a hammer. The other expansions are nice enough, though honestly when I say it's great, I'm talking about the custom campaigns. You may not play them much, but disregarding a feature as unimportant just because you didn't like it isn't exactly nice. Honestly, it's about the biggest part of it. That's where all the fun comes from. So, if you don't care for custom maps, I suppose that's one thing, but honestly, don't disregard the game as bad for EVERYONE based on something you alone don't like, but is obviuosly VERY popular.
The diff between other players and the "henchmen" is that you can actually strategize with the other humans and they are actually able to think. It's a much fuller experience that way, and it really feels like you are on an adventure with a party, even if you don't control them. I do however believe in the future they should add at least the ABILITY to control multiple characters, fully, at once. Wouldn't be long before fully controllable extra characters are added to custom campaigns.
Just to make it clear, I said from the start a little randomness thrown in for spice is fine. I just don't like it to be dominating. You seem to be really aggressive about this issue. Really, I'm only saying I don't like it when randomness replaces skill, as in the early parts of D&D games.
Now, I know you don't think that's the case, and that's fine. I'm not saying you are wrong. I am however saying that that's how I see it, and all things considered, I think that should be enough. Just let it be.
Regarding FF8, no the actual damage formula itself isn't actually explained, but all you need to do is see what damage you are doing, how much a few stat gains affect it, and then from there you instantly have all you need to draw upon to figure it out yourself. They don't spell it out sure, but it's hardly hidden. There IS randomness to it, but it's very minor, essentially to spice it up a bit. A standard attack at a certain level that averages 100 won't also be doing 200 and 10, it'll always be in the area of 90-110 or so I'd say. Likewise, a critical, while slightly varied, will always be roughly double what a normal attack is. To analyze the formula for a critical hit, in any of these games, all you need to do is remember what the attack value of a normal hit is and do the math.
You mention that having characters that develop exactly the same is boring, and yes, I see exactly what you mean. In a game like FF1, where the stats are exactly LOCKED into place, it IS in fact boring to play with the same party over and over. There are other things sure, but the stats are always going to be about the same. However, my point is really that, rather than resorting to a random element for THAT particular issue, they give YOU control of stat development to solve the issue in a lot of games. Having the control taken away from me, you see, bores me.
Allow me to give you an example of a way to get the stats varied without resorting to randomness. In Final Fantasy 2, there are no levels at all, not in the traditional sense really. No experience points to be found. Rather, everything you do has a direct and almost immediate effect on your stats in near-real time. If you attack, then after the battle, strength increases. If you use magic, then intelligence or wisdom increases. If you use a bow, your archery ability increases. If you TAKE damage, your defense or HP increases. If you dodge an attack, your evasion rate increases (there's another bit of randomness for you, thrown in at just enough of a level to make it fun without removing too much control from the player). Essentially, every single game you characters can be VASTLY different in their stats. However, very little randomness and in the end, it was you (and in part, the attacks of the enemies) that determined your character's abilities. There are penalties mind you. You raise your strength a lot, and your wisdom and intelligence start going down. The drops aren't as big as the raises mind you, so overall you will always be getting stronger, but you'll really need to decide how you want to develop your characters. You can thus custom form your character to be anything from a powerful black mage, a great white mage, a legendary swordsman, or even a jack of all trades as a red mage, though that type of character won't be as good at any of it's individual abilities as a specialist.
Another example is this. I think I've said it before actually. In FF6 and in FF8, the summoned monsters are well, equipable (as crystals, well, it is Final Fantasy, crystals are kinda needed). A large amount have stat bonuses. The maximum limit is, for most of the stats, the number you can get for equipping the best possible stat boost to that character at their starting level and keeping it there until level 99 (or 100 in the case of FF8). This means you can't max out EVERYTHING in one game. That means you have to choose which stats matter most and emphasize them. THAT means that every game will result in different stats.
You see, there are many solutions to this outside randomness.
I just want to make something clear. As much as I've pretty much ridden randomness into the ground, I don't completely HATE it. I just think it has it's place. If I'm in the mood to actually play a game where chance and skill are pretty much equal in determining the flow of things, then I play Mario Party. I also ENJOY Mario Party. I don't pretend if I win that it was totally do to my skill though, I'm just playing to have fun and win the most minigames possible there, and the randomness is there basically TO take the control away from you, and in that sort of game, that's half the point. When I'm in the mood for a game like that, I play it. However, when I want to play a fighting game, randomness must be much more subdued. For example, I generally always select "random level", and sometimes "random character", however, if my character, during battle, randomly started switching abilities, then I wouldn't be able to control them reliably. That's why I avoid Game & Watch. One of that fellow's moves is totally random, and as a result, isn't something I can depend on in a fix. While the other moves it has are nice, and I don't actually need to depend on the random one, in the end I had to decide it made Game & Watch potentially weaker. I go for the sure thing when it comes to my character's moveset. However, at the same time, the items that randomly appear I DEMAND to be random. Hard to really explain it, but I guess it really does just come down to taste.
I guess all I'm saying is we expect different things from our games, SOME different things anyway. You see, when I say I don't like how at the start, the control is kinda taken away from me and given to the dice, you say you don't even see the control being taken away. At the same time, when you say you like to be able to take your time in a game and MM doesn't allow that, I myself am of the opinion that it gives you plenty of time to do stuff and I always found I had plenty of freedom to explore so long as I dedicated my exploring to one area at a time.
It's really not a big deal. I "get over" it easily enough and I DO still enjoy those games. However, I just wanted to vent a bit about the whole thing. Don't really take it personally or anything.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)