16th April 2004, 12:13 AM
OB1, I think you may be wrong about this. I have heard all the PC people saying that Islam is just a wonderful thing and the suicide bombers are just radicals who twisted things to their own ways. And all of that has come after 9-11, when people were so afraid of backlash against Arabs and Muslims here. However, I have heard from other people who have lived in Muslim countries or have Muslim friends who have said the opposite. I did a quick search on google and found site of both opinions, both claiming the other guys took everything out of context, and I could see the point both were making. One quote that jumped out at me that I never saw refuted was this:
"The believers who stay at home??apart from those that suffer a grave impediment??are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..."
That says to me that you are encourage to kill nonbelievers if you want better rewards after you die. Now maybe it too is taken out of context and it is in truth analogous to draft dodging, I don't know.
You say that he only killed out of self defense, but I haven't read anything like that. What I've read, and never found refuted, is that he tortured people who wouldn't convert to Islam.
And to top it off, those who really did follow him lived the same. Later when the Jews were hunting and killing the first of what we now call Christians, they didn't fight back. Stephen was stoned, and he prayed for the people who killed him (Acts 7). THere are countless examples int eh New Testament of people who believed in Jesus being tortured and killed for this belief, and not once did they retaliate. History is full of similar examples, like the Roman emporors who would capture every Christian they could find, and not just kill them, but throw them into collisiums to be destroyed by lions, or burned at the stake, or whatever else they could discover. That is true history, and whether you want to believe the Bible or not, you have to admit that is the truth.
And if you still don't believe me, what about the places today like China, Tibet, Nepal, or ANY Muslim country where it is illegal to be a Christian? If you are found you are thrown in jail or killed. Read <a href="http://www.persecution.org/">this</a> or <a href="http://www.persecutedchurch.org/index.cfm">this</a> for more. Tell me again that Islam promotes peace and goodwill to all. That seems a little different from the US, which was based on Christian beliefs and the desire for everyone to have freedom of religion. Muslims are not hunted and killed here. Budhists are not. Followers of the Baha'i Faith are not. Atheists are not. You can believe what you want, and are free to disagree and have talks likes this. In many parts of the world, I would be killed for saying what I am now. Possesion of a Bible means prison. But do you ever hear about Christians who rebel and kill police or soldiers because they were being persecuted. If Muhammad really believed what he claimed, that Martyrs for Allah will receive paradise, then why did he fight. The sites that do say Islam promotes peace are quick to point out that they believe that matyrs will be greatly rewarded- but you can't be a martyr if you attack others. But here Muhammad is fighting back to defend himself. To me that doesn't add up.
On the other hand, I know people who live in China and Nepal, in Muslim countries, who are trying to tell these people about Jesus. Not because they feel have to for salvation. Not because they want to conquer or control these people. But it's because they love them. They are willing to give up EVERYTHING - computers, video games, tv, movies, the entire American lifestyle and all the great things we enjoy - to tell these people the good news that they can be free. And even though it is illegal and the price they pay if caught is high, Christianity is growing exponentially in these places. Christianity is not a Western idea. The largest church for many years was in South Korea at around 70,000, but now Christian churches in Africa (Etheopia, I think, but I can't remember of the top of my head) are hundreds of thousands of people in size. They have services all day every day. And despite the best efforts of leaders all around the world, Christianity is growing and growing. Why? These people were not rasied with these beliefs. It is not part of their culture. So why suddenly turn away from how you were raised and all that you ever believed, risking death in the process?
I've said this many times, but it is so often misunderstood that I need to say it again. Christianity is not about going to heaven instead of hell. That's a fantastic thing, but that puts the whole emphasis on dying. In truth Jesus says "I have come so that you may have life, and have it to the full." It's about living life now. It's about a reason to get up in the morning, it's about something that will FINALLY satisfy the deepest hole in your life that you've tried to fill with everything else but you still feel empty. I didn't understand this until a few years ago, and my life has changed completely. Call me insane or delusional or whatever else. I know that I used to be miserable even though I've been a Christian all my life. I know that I hated life, I felt worthless and stupid, and I felt there was no hope for anything better. I did all the good things that religion is all about - like not swearing or lying or getting into trouble. Basically being a boring loser with no life and no fun. But it didn't do anything for me and I was still miserable. And then I finally gave in to God and let him be the friend and savior I needed, not the Big, Angry Diety in the Sky I thought he was. And everything changed. For me it wasn't an overnight thing, but consistently everyday I grow closer to God. I love talking to God because it's not a duty anymore. I love reading the Bible because it encourages me to strive to better myself to honor God and serve others. No, I'm not perfect yet, but the great thing about God is that there is always grace. Grace to forgive and grace to change.
Anyway, I was never intending to go here when I said that. It was an example off the top of my head. I was only trying to say that revenge is not the answer. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Maybe you've seen that on a bumper sticker- I know I have many times. And judging by the other stickers that tend to accompany that one, it's someone who thinks they are making a point to Christians, not even realizing that it is the core of what Jesus was about. I was only trying to encourage ASM to think about it for a second, because it is so easy to react out of anger.
It is human nature to react and get offended when others hurt or insult you. That is why you always hear about Christians protesting something or whining about something. But the thing is, Jesus has the power to set you free from human nature. Paul talks about it a lot in Romans 8. "Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires." and a few verses later: "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you." Basically, it's saying that everyone lives by human nature, which wants to please itself. Me first, looking out for number one, I do whatever seems right to me... Maybe you will disagree, but I think that is the basis of everything that is wrong with the world. Why does somebody steal? Because they care more about themselves than the one who they are robbing. Why do people murder? Because they want to satisfy their own desires regardless of the consequences it has to anyone else. It's even evidenced in little things like not wanting to do your chores.
Maybe you don't even think it's a big deal cause you haven't done anything too bad. But haven't you ever gotten so angry about something that youlost control? Maybe for a second, or a minute, or maybe you were angry with the world for a week. And every time you seem to get more angry or you get frustrated about things that never bothered you before. You guys know it's true! That's because you don't really have complete control over your actions and thoughts. I hated being a slave to human nature, and now that God controls my life, I don't have to be. Now sometimes I mess up and turn away from God, but then I realize what a mess I've made and he's always there to forgive, even though I don't deserve it.
OB1, from what I have read Baha'i teaches Jesus is one of many messengers from God and that the meaning of life is to know God. "The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence." That is awesome! So few people understand that, even people who believe in God. The thing is, Jesus said that he is the only way to God and himself God, not just a prophet. That is not the kind of statement you hear people make every day, and it doesn't fit with the idea that he is one of many prophets. I think you have to make a decision, that either everything he said is true or everything he said is bogus. Because either he was God or he was insane. Have you read the Gospel? I only ask because most Christians don't even read the Bible, and think quotes like "God helps those who help themselves" are scripture. Maybe you have thought about this and spent time studying, but if not I encourage you to do so. Read what Jesus said and look at how he lived and decide for yourself. At least then you will know you have all the facts before deciding. Just think about it, kay?
You guys know I don't bring this up often. I wasn't even trying to talk about it when this all started. I just wanted to give ASM something to think about, because I used to attack everyone who didn't believe the same as me and now I feel very bad about itm because I was a bad example of what Jesus is all about. So that's the only reason I said anything. And I'm only writing this huge core dump because I couldn't stop once I started. :) I'm not going to force this on anybody else. It's just that there are so many misconceptions about Christianity (created mostly by people who claimed to follow Jesus, but only as a little God-in-a-box to justify their own sin and grant their wishes) and I don't want my friends to never learn the truth- so they can make their own educated decisions for their own life.
It's like the Matrix, guys. I've been unplugged, and I want you to be too. Nobody in the Matrix thinks there is anything wrong- they don't know any better. I can't prove it to you. You have to take the red pill and find out for yourself. I don't claim an easy life or that everything will be perfect from now on. In fact, it's actually the opposite, because now you are a threat. But now you will have the power to overcome, and it's so worth it.
"The believers who stay at home??apart from those that suffer a grave impediment??are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..."
That says to me that you are encourage to kill nonbelievers if you want better rewards after you die. Now maybe it too is taken out of context and it is in truth analogous to draft dodging, I don't know.
You say that he only killed out of self defense, but I haven't read anything like that. What I've read, and never found refuted, is that he tortured people who wouldn't convert to Islam.
Quote:"A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, ?O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk.? Allah's Apostle said, ?I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.? So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died." (Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261: Narrated by Anas bin Malik.)And yes, I know of the examples of the Crusaders and the Conquistadors, and all the other people who have done the same. My point is that this is Muhammad. the prophet. Not the people who claimed to be followers who just twisted the truth to their own desires. It is completely contrary to Jesus' examples, even when faced with torture and death. When the soldiers came to arrest Jesus, Peter attacked them. But Jesus told him to stop, and then healed the man who had come to arrest him. (Mathew 26:50-54)
The oldest still-available biography of Muhammad is called the "Sirat Rasul Allah" ("Life of the Prophet of Allah"). This book was written by Ibn Ishaq a century before any of the major works of the Hadith. "Sirat Rasulallah" is considered the most authentic biography of Muhammad. On page 515, we read of an event that took place about three years before Muhammad's death. This specific narrative tells of Muhammad?s conquest of Khaibar, a large Jewish settlement with some of the best date palms in the region. The Jews of Khaibar were prosperous merchants, craftsmen, and farmers. Kinana al-Rabi, who was said to have had the custody of a certain hidden treasure, was brought to Muhammad who asked him about it. Kinana denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" he said "Yes." Muhammad gave orders that the ruin be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked Kinana about the rest of the treasure he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then Muhammad delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head. Were Muhammad?s actions in keeping with a religion that is for peace? And this is only one such example among many. <a href="http://www.answering-islam.org/TWOR/peacepromoting.html">link</a>
And to top it off, those who really did follow him lived the same. Later when the Jews were hunting and killing the first of what we now call Christians, they didn't fight back. Stephen was stoned, and he prayed for the people who killed him (Acts 7). THere are countless examples int eh New Testament of people who believed in Jesus being tortured and killed for this belief, and not once did they retaliate. History is full of similar examples, like the Roman emporors who would capture every Christian they could find, and not just kill them, but throw them into collisiums to be destroyed by lions, or burned at the stake, or whatever else they could discover. That is true history, and whether you want to believe the Bible or not, you have to admit that is the truth.
And if you still don't believe me, what about the places today like China, Tibet, Nepal, or ANY Muslim country where it is illegal to be a Christian? If you are found you are thrown in jail or killed. Read <a href="http://www.persecution.org/">this</a> or <a href="http://www.persecutedchurch.org/index.cfm">this</a> for more. Tell me again that Islam promotes peace and goodwill to all. That seems a little different from the US, which was based on Christian beliefs and the desire for everyone to have freedom of religion. Muslims are not hunted and killed here. Budhists are not. Followers of the Baha'i Faith are not. Atheists are not. You can believe what you want, and are free to disagree and have talks likes this. In many parts of the world, I would be killed for saying what I am now. Possesion of a Bible means prison. But do you ever hear about Christians who rebel and kill police or soldiers because they were being persecuted. If Muhammad really believed what he claimed, that Martyrs for Allah will receive paradise, then why did he fight. The sites that do say Islam promotes peace are quick to point out that they believe that matyrs will be greatly rewarded- but you can't be a martyr if you attack others. But here Muhammad is fighting back to defend himself. To me that doesn't add up.
On the other hand, I know people who live in China and Nepal, in Muslim countries, who are trying to tell these people about Jesus. Not because they feel have to for salvation. Not because they want to conquer or control these people. But it's because they love them. They are willing to give up EVERYTHING - computers, video games, tv, movies, the entire American lifestyle and all the great things we enjoy - to tell these people the good news that they can be free. And even though it is illegal and the price they pay if caught is high, Christianity is growing exponentially in these places. Christianity is not a Western idea. The largest church for many years was in South Korea at around 70,000, but now Christian churches in Africa (Etheopia, I think, but I can't remember of the top of my head) are hundreds of thousands of people in size. They have services all day every day. And despite the best efforts of leaders all around the world, Christianity is growing and growing. Why? These people were not rasied with these beliefs. It is not part of their culture. So why suddenly turn away from how you were raised and all that you ever believed, risking death in the process?
I've said this many times, but it is so often misunderstood that I need to say it again. Christianity is not about going to heaven instead of hell. That's a fantastic thing, but that puts the whole emphasis on dying. In truth Jesus says "I have come so that you may have life, and have it to the full." It's about living life now. It's about a reason to get up in the morning, it's about something that will FINALLY satisfy the deepest hole in your life that you've tried to fill with everything else but you still feel empty. I didn't understand this until a few years ago, and my life has changed completely. Call me insane or delusional or whatever else. I know that I used to be miserable even though I've been a Christian all my life. I know that I hated life, I felt worthless and stupid, and I felt there was no hope for anything better. I did all the good things that religion is all about - like not swearing or lying or getting into trouble. Basically being a boring loser with no life and no fun. But it didn't do anything for me and I was still miserable. And then I finally gave in to God and let him be the friend and savior I needed, not the Big, Angry Diety in the Sky I thought he was. And everything changed. For me it wasn't an overnight thing, but consistently everyday I grow closer to God. I love talking to God because it's not a duty anymore. I love reading the Bible because it encourages me to strive to better myself to honor God and serve others. No, I'm not perfect yet, but the great thing about God is that there is always grace. Grace to forgive and grace to change.
Anyway, I was never intending to go here when I said that. It was an example off the top of my head. I was only trying to say that revenge is not the answer. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Maybe you've seen that on a bumper sticker- I know I have many times. And judging by the other stickers that tend to accompany that one, it's someone who thinks they are making a point to Christians, not even realizing that it is the core of what Jesus was about. I was only trying to encourage ASM to think about it for a second, because it is so easy to react out of anger.
It is human nature to react and get offended when others hurt or insult you. That is why you always hear about Christians protesting something or whining about something. But the thing is, Jesus has the power to set you free from human nature. Paul talks about it a lot in Romans 8. "Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires." and a few verses later: "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you." Basically, it's saying that everyone lives by human nature, which wants to please itself. Me first, looking out for number one, I do whatever seems right to me... Maybe you will disagree, but I think that is the basis of everything that is wrong with the world. Why does somebody steal? Because they care more about themselves than the one who they are robbing. Why do people murder? Because they want to satisfy their own desires regardless of the consequences it has to anyone else. It's even evidenced in little things like not wanting to do your chores.
Maybe you don't even think it's a big deal cause you haven't done anything too bad. But haven't you ever gotten so angry about something that youlost control? Maybe for a second, or a minute, or maybe you were angry with the world for a week. And every time you seem to get more angry or you get frustrated about things that never bothered you before. You guys know it's true! That's because you don't really have complete control over your actions and thoughts. I hated being a slave to human nature, and now that God controls my life, I don't have to be. Now sometimes I mess up and turn away from God, but then I realize what a mess I've made and he's always there to forgive, even though I don't deserve it.
OB1, from what I have read Baha'i teaches Jesus is one of many messengers from God and that the meaning of life is to know God. "The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence." That is awesome! So few people understand that, even people who believe in God. The thing is, Jesus said that he is the only way to God and himself God, not just a prophet. That is not the kind of statement you hear people make every day, and it doesn't fit with the idea that he is one of many prophets. I think you have to make a decision, that either everything he said is true or everything he said is bogus. Because either he was God or he was insane. Have you read the Gospel? I only ask because most Christians don't even read the Bible, and think quotes like "God helps those who help themselves" are scripture. Maybe you have thought about this and spent time studying, but if not I encourage you to do so. Read what Jesus said and look at how he lived and decide for yourself. At least then you will know you have all the facts before deciding. Just think about it, kay?
You guys know I don't bring this up often. I wasn't even trying to talk about it when this all started. I just wanted to give ASM something to think about, because I used to attack everyone who didn't believe the same as me and now I feel very bad about itm because I was a bad example of what Jesus is all about. So that's the only reason I said anything. And I'm only writing this huge core dump because I couldn't stop once I started. :) I'm not going to force this on anybody else. It's just that there are so many misconceptions about Christianity (created mostly by people who claimed to follow Jesus, but only as a little God-in-a-box to justify their own sin and grant their wishes) and I don't want my friends to never learn the truth- so they can make their own educated decisions for their own life.
It's like the Matrix, guys. I've been unplugged, and I want you to be too. Nobody in the Matrix thinks there is anything wrong- they don't know any better. I can't prove it to you. You have to take the red pill and find out for yourself. I don't claim an easy life or that everything will be perfect from now on. In fact, it's actually the opposite, because now you are a threat. But now you will have the power to overcome, and it's so worth it.