The "I GOT WIND WAKER!!!" thread

[OB1]

Wait a sec... you mean you just got the game? So this whole time you've been saying how it's worse than OoT even though you didn't play it??!! :cuss:

But yeah I didn't like the water either. The water at the very end of the game shows how it should have been done (the very last part of the boss battle, not the first part).

[A Black Falcon]

I think I said I didn't have it...

And I had played it once in a store demo. It looked okay... showed the style nicely. It looks like a nice cartoon. I won't change my opinion that realistic could have looked better... but it looks better than I thought it could for the style.

[Dark Jaguar]

Translucensy would have been great, but to be honest I loved the look of the water. It has two looks to it, and both of them are carbon copies of the two water styles in LTTP.

I'm not too surprised ABF did that. Actually, he often talks about why a game he hasn't played is inferior. He never actually says he never played it, nor does he say he actually has, but rather just makes it SOUND like he has. As though if he doesn't actually say it, he's technically not lying or something :D. That's what he did for a bit with Zelda DX. But this you can be sure of, he'll form his own opinion not totally based on others and is willing to take back what he said before once he's actually played it.

ABF, if you think it looks good in motion so far, wait until later when you start seeing zoomed up faces and the fluid emotion they show. The best faces I think are at the very end (that's always the way...).

I still wish it was longer. To be honest I never really have had that much of a problem with Nintendo's delays. My main beef was just with them lying to us about a release date we all KNEW Nintendo knew wasn't ever going to be the release date. Once it's out, any and all delays no longer matter at all, only the game itself, and as such I have no problem at all with them delaying a game if the finished product is better. Think about it, it's just a few months or even a year more, but the game is permanently better FOREVER after that. Here's to the next game getting as much time as is needed to make all the dungeons the guy wants in there (I think maybe just the two more Mr. M wanted and I wouldn't even have a problem).

(On another note, here's to them dropping the way too obvious hints. Maybe in the original Japanese, those hints are actually subtle, and they just got obvious in translation, but whatever the reason, I hates them. This includes that stupid little symbol telling you "SHOOT THE HOOKSHOT NOW!". In fact, I'm willing to totally ditch the boomerang target feature if it means I have to figure out what I can use it on myself after that. I think those little things are solely to blame for puzzles being easier, or just seeming that way. Too much of a "user friendly" attitude.

Who was it that said a staple aspect of gaming, the "reward" should be removed from Zelda side quests? I think they said they didn't like the idea of making the experience less for going on side quests. But, it doesn't make the experience leser, just easier, and that's a perfect reward! ALL games do that! I mean, every single game that's ever had an out of the way path gives you a power up at the end! Sonic, Mario, Megaman, Final Fantasy, Zelda, Castlevania, Metroid, Metal Gear, even overhead shooting games where risking your life shooting as many as possible means you get more weapon powerups! It's so deeply ingrained into the heart of gaming that to remove it seems fatal to me. The idea of a "scenario hunt" type thing ala many of the side quests in Final Fantasy 6 is nice, but also give the powerup. If you wish, here's the option I'd love. Allow us the user via the menu to enable or disable pretty much any bonus power we get in any game. The latest Castlevania games have allowed this for special powers. Perhaps giving us a heart container slide bar, with the maximum limit of the slide being the current maximum, and the minimum being 3 heart containers, would do, so you could therefor ignore those pieces of heart. Sure I play side quests even when I know I won't get a reward, or it's a reward I have no need for to beat the game, but having plenty of rewards makes things even more fun. If you want to make the game harder, avoid the side quests like normal people do. Sure, that requires you beat the game at least once to know what you actually need to do and what you don't to beat the game, but really, the first time through SHOULD allow for plenty of ways to make the combat easier and more survivable! That's why most people start new games on easy mode and work their way up (in the case of Panzar Dragoon Orta, that's what you NEED to do).

[A Black Falcon]

That's what he did for a bit with Zelda DX.

I've played the rom (got to Tail Cave, I believe) and the store demo several years ago. Roms count. :)

Oh, now I'm in the dungeon in Dragon Roost Island... the lava cave. It looks nice... it's also the dungeon in the store demo, BTW. But it does look nice.

None of that bland flat blue water helps it... its so ... boring ... for a game with so much of it! Sure the ripple effects are kind of cool, and it looks like cartoon water, but if that's cartoon water I don't want cartoon water. No way. Its just flat, plain, blue...

As for side quests... I always do some in games with them, but almost never do them all... its just not worth it usually. But doing some is fun. I've done a few so far in WW... and I do like the reward system. Giving you stuff like heart containers feels like a real reward... unlike money or something. If there's one reward in a Zelda game that is near-worthless, its money... no, heart containers as rewards should stay. Not just for tradition, but for getting real rewards! I don't want to do some tough sidequest and get a lame reward! That's not worth it...

Oh, and I don't talk a lot about games I've never played like I have played them... usually I've played them at least a little...

[OB1]

I'm dissapointed in you, ABF.

[A Black Falcon]

How so? I had played it a little... and it looks the same now as it did then -- nice cartoonish graphics. Its just with more playtime it does start to look nicer.

And I still would like it in realistic style!

Oh, it IS easy. I just finished the first dungeon and haven't died yet... I've NEVER done that before in a Zelda dungeon. Not once...1

[OB1]

It gets harder, much not much harder. That's the only real complaint I have against the game: you never die.

[Darunia]

I agree ABF...easy. The water is a minor complaint though...it actually does lend a nice, romantic feeling to the whole thing...a fantastic feeling of surreality. All the cartoony graphics too...but I'd still prefer a realistic one, more like OoT. But you're talking to the wrong person, OB1 is a Zelda nationalist. By his own admission, he has found pratically no faults in it at all. Never dying didn't bother me that much, not as much as tastelessly bland dungeons and legions of identical enemies. Oh well; who am I to disagree with OB1.

[A Black Falcon]

Never dying didn't bother you because you like easy games. I don't hate easy games, I just appreciate it when the game challenges you (without undue annoyance, I guess). This game hasn't done that... its nice looking and is presented well, but just is so easy! And they tell you where to go next too... making it even easier...

And the hints during boss fights when you are doing poorly to tell you how to beat them are just stupid! I WANT TO FIGURE IT OUT MYSELF! I don't want to be told "use the grappling hook and swing"... I want to figure out! Idiots...

As for bland dungeons, I don't think I've gotten there yet... all I've seen are the Forbidden Fortress and the Dragon Mountain dungeon -- each of which is unique and far from bland!

[OB1]

Um... didn't I just complain about the water effects and the lack of enemy difficulty?

:stupid:

[A Black Falcon]

I don't really know what you are trying to say... did I ever say that the water was good looking and the game was hard? I don't think I did... so I don't get it...

On some issues in this thread dropped for several months. Textures... yes, they are better than in OoT. But not by that much... its more because they are clearer and higher resolution than more detailed -- the game does have fairly simple textures and envrionment graphics that just don't look like they do anywhere near as much as the Cube can do. Sure, the cel shading total effect looks very nice and stylistic... but how is it pushing the Cube so hard? I still don't see that... it appears to be a very stylistic game which is graphically nice but not something pushing the Cube's power... the textures are simple, and the poly count doesn't appear to be that high...

And the water. Just like the walls and the enemies, it does look straight out of a cartoon. The problem is, as I said, that in this environment cartoon water just doesn't look very good. Sure, realistic clear water wouldn't be as true to it being a cartoon, but it'd look SO much better!

Oh, I played OoT yesterday. It reminded me that my cart was erased (by that other bad N64 I had...) and I'm only in Dodongo's Cavern. I died (the third in that game) well before reaching the boss... that game is still nice looking. Sure the textures are bad, but it has a great style... very different from WW (and I would say that WW done on the N64 wouldn't look nearly as good because it wouldn't have the detail level that cartoons have... OoT doesn't emulate anything like that so it doesn't rely on that.

And anyway when I first played it I noticed how low resolution the graphics are (compared to circa 1999 PC games), so they haven't changed that much in my eyes...

[Darunia]

Yea, the constant hints were kind of annoying...that bothered me too. Beating the bosses (each of which I had no trouble beating on my first try--that tells you something) so easily doesn't make it that exciting, or even much of an accomplishment.

[CartoonDevil]

Wind Waker could have been so much more than it was. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only person who feels dissappointed by Wind Waker.

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah. It may be kind of fun to blow through games, but when they are hard (not ARGH THIS IS SO STUPID hard, but hard) it gives you a much better sense of accomplishment... that boss looked cool, but between how easy it was to kill him and the hints... not that great.

[OB1]

I was replying to Darunia, ABF. I started writing that before your post was up.

[A Black Falcon]

Ah. That makes a whole lot more sense now then...

And Darunia, uh, haven't you been saying all along that you like games easy and dislike hard games? Uh... now you say you like a challenge? Huh?

Oh wait, you do say that never dying didn't bother you. Sorry for doubting you. :)

And Darunia... where are these bland, identical dungeons? Not in the early game at least...

As for CD, lots of people were dissapointed by it... for one reason or another. For me its mostly difficulty, so far... but I have heard it gets worse farther on, so we'll see.

[OB1]

Originally posted by A Black Falcon


On some issues in this thread dropped for several months. Textures... yes, they are better than in OoT. But not by that much... its more because they are clearer and higher resolution than more detailed -- the game does have fairly simple textures and envrionment graphics that just don't look like they do anywhere near as much as the Cube can do. Sure, the cel shading total effect looks very nice and stylistic... but how is it pushing the Cube so hard? I still don't see that... it appears to be a very stylistic game which is graphically nice but not something pushing the Cube's power... the textures are simple, and the poly count doesn't appear to be that high...

Wow, you really don't have an eye for graphics, do you? Most of the textures fit the game just perfectly, although some of them definitely could have been better. Cel-shading (right cel-shading) is very taxing on hardware, and Wind Waker does it best. The poly count is higher than you think. Only a few of the characters in the game have obvious edges which is a sign of a low-poly count. Also, the animation is unparalleled. No other game in existence has animation as sophisticated as WW's.

And the water. Just like the walls and the enemies, it does look straight out of a cartoon. The problem is, as I said, that in this environment cartoon water just doesn't look very good. Sure, realistic clear water wouldn't be as true to it being a cartoon, but it'd look SO much better!

The funny thing about that is that the final boss battle features more realistic-looking water that would have fit the game quite nicely. And I'm talking about the very last part of the boss fight, guys. Not the mirror water stuff.

Oh, I played OoT yesterday. It reminded me that my cart was erased (by that other bad N64 I had...) and I'm only in Dodongo's Cavern. I died (the third in that game) well before reaching the boss... that game is still nice looking. Sure the textures are bad, but it has a great style... very different from WW (and I would say that WW done on the N64 wouldn't look nearly as good because it wouldn't have the detail level that cartoons have... OoT doesn't emulate anything like that so it doesn't rely on that.

And anyway when I first played it I noticed how low resolution the graphics are (compared to circa 1999 PC games), so they haven't changed that much in my eyes...

You just have a very different idea of what Zelda should look like. Zelda isn't supposed to be a realistic-looking series. ALttP is what it should look like, and WW did a good job of maintaining that feel while having a unique look of its own.

[A Black Falcon]

Wow, you really don't have an eye for graphics, do you? Most of the textures fit the game just perfectly, although some of them definitely could have been better. Cel-shading (right cel-shading) is very taxing on hardware, and Wind Waker does it best. The poly count is higher than you think. Only a few of the characters in the game have obvious edges which is a sign of a low-poly count. Also, the animation is unparalleled. No other game in existence has animation as sophisticated as WW's.

It certainly looks like a moving cartoon, but where is this magical processor power going? Not to textures, for sure... they are clean, but simple... and the polycount? Not LOW, but not system-pushing from what it looks.

Though it is true that one point of cel-shading is to make it look like there aren't polys. Still, the environments at least are nicely detailed but not huge polycount... so far at least. :)

They fit well, but don't look to push it as hard as you keep saying.

You just have a very different idea of what Zelda should look like. Zelda isn't supposed to be a realistic-looking series. ALttP is what it should look like, and WW did a good job of maintaining that feel while having a unique look of its own.

True. I want OoT and you want LttP... those are quite different. Oh, LttP and WW look nice... but its not what I think of as 'the best look for the Zelda series'.

[OB1]

It certainly looks like a moving cartoon, but where is this magical processor power going? Not to textures, for sure... they are clean, but simple... and the polycount? Not LOW, but not system-pushing from what it looks.

Though it is true that one point of cel-shading is to make it look like there aren't polys. Still, the environments at least are nicely detailed but not huge polycount... so far at least.

They fit well, but don't look to push it as hard as you keep saying.

Well believe me, it is. Ask lazy if you want details.

True. I want OoT and you want LttP... those are quite different. Oh, LttP and WW look nice... but its not what I think of as 'the best look for the Zelda series'.

But my view if the same as Miyamoto's, so :ass:

[A Black Falcon]

Well believe me, it is. Ask lazy if you want details.

So you say...

But my view if the same as Miyamoto's, so

That its his opinion doesn't mean its the best one... :)

Uh, we beat this argument to death yet? :)

[OB1]

He's the friggin' creator of the series!! Of course his opinion about this is "the best"!!!!

*slaps ABF across the face*

:cuss: :cuss: :finger2: :samcut: :crapper: :jedi: :cuss: :cuss:

[A Black Falcon]

His opinion is where the series is going to go (well less so now that another person is the main designer of Zelda games), but it sure doesn't mean I have to agree with it...

[OB1]

Well of course you don't have to agree with him, but you won't even admit that he is a far greater authority on the subject than you are even though he created the damn franchise. So his choices on the series' direction are right, even if you don't like them. Hell you didn't even like the look of LttP. What's wrong with you?

[Darunia]

And Darunia, uh, haven't you been saying all along that you like games easy and dislike hard games? Uh... now you say you like a challenge? Huh?

I never in my life said I like easy games; you clever dimwits deduced that for yourselves. I complained that some parts of SMS were too hard, so OB1 took that scrap and ran with it, and once more has turned it into a propaganda campaign.

Oh wait, you do say that never dying didn't bother you. Sorry for doubting you.

Well, maybe I wasnt thinking...I suppose it did bother me in the slightest; but it's better than dying every few minutes, like one can do in RE: Zero.

And Darunia... where are these bland, identical dungeons? Not in the early game at least...

Identical is a word you just added. I never said any two dungeons were identical; but once inside, they just go on and blah blah. The last two, Wind and Earth, were bland and tasteless. AND ESPECIALLY the one near the Deku tree; where all you ever have to do in any room, practically, is figure out how to break the plant seal on a door.

I've beaten the game, so my opinion counts for more than yours, ABF, so piss off buddy, alright?:)

[OB1]

This coming from the guy who likes Quest 64 more than Metroid Prime.

[Darunia]

I just type half a novel defending my Zelda stance, and the almighty, omnipotent, dauntless master of all OB1 can only slap out a short insult like that. You better hope I don't ever fucking meet you in a dark alley at night.

[OB1]

Haha, I can't see that right now.


*OB1 walks into a dark alley and sees a small shadow coming towards him*

OB1: Who's there?

*the person comes out the shadow, throwing little rocks at OB1*

OB1: What the--? Uh... why are you throwing rocks at me, little fella?

Darunia: Shut up! I am Darunia and I am waging war upon you! Die!

OB1: Uh... let's look at the math involved here, bubba. You're four feet tall, maybe 90 pounds. I'm six-foot-four and 220 pounds.

*Darunia continues to throw pebbles at OB1*

OB1: *sigh* You asked for it...

*picks up Darunia, drops him in nearby dumpster*

Darunia: Why you-*cough*-bitch! I'm gonna-pbbblt-get you! I'm-yech!-gonna find you and kill you!! Just you wait! *cough*

[EdenMaster]

No, remember. Darunia is one inch tall and weighs one ton.

[OB1]

Well we never got any real measurements from him.

[Darunia]

This conflict isn't going to be resolved becuase you're just too fucking arrogant.

[OB1]

Aw come on, cheer up.

[A Black Falcon]

I never in my life said I like easy games; you clever dimwits deduced that for yourselves. I complained that some parts of SMS were too hard, so OB1 took that scrap and ran with it, and once more has turned it into a propaganda campaign.

Well, "I don't like games to be that hard" sounds pretty similar to "I like games easy" when the subject is SMS or things like it... sure its tough but not in a bad way. Its not R-Type or something...

Well, maybe I wasnt thinking...I suppose it did bother me in the slightest; but it's better than dying every few minutes, like one can do in RE: Zero.

How about like in previous Zelda games? Say... OoT and MM? In both you can die fairly frequently, and it works well... but WW dumbs it down so you almost never die... if at all. Sure its kind of enjoyable to be able to just live and try to solve puzzles until you ge them, but dying should be a part of the game! If you mess up and are in lava for long, or get hit a lot, you should die!

And there shouldn't be all of those idiotic hints. I don't want to be told where to go! A big part of previous Zelda games was the adventure -- you wandered around, figuring out where to go next, with only vague ideas of where you should be, and any hints there were were OPTIONAL!

Identical is a word you just added. I never said any two dungeons were identical; but once inside, they just go on and blah blah. The last two, Wind and Earth, were bland and tasteless. AND ESPECIALLY the one near the Deku tree; where all you ever have to do in any room, practically, is figure out how to break the plant seal on a door.

I've beaten the game, so my opinion counts for more than yours, ABF, so piss off buddy, alright?

I'm now in the Forbidden Forest (Deku Tree dungeon). Its okay, but it is true that you do a lot of throwing things at locks... and using the deku leaf and the things that toss you in the air. Like the things in the swamp in Majora's Mask...



As for the game, the linearity is annoying too... not just that he tells you where to go next -- in a ocean that big, you kind of have to... but he actually forces you to go there and nowhere else -- not even back to places you've been! At least so far that's sure been the case for me... :( And even when it does let you go anywhere... sailing IS boring.

[OB1]

After you get the third gem or so the whole world opens up to you so it's not nearly as linear as early on in the game.

And sailing is great! You're just impatient.

[big guy]

sure the whole world opens up...but there's next to nothing to do on almost all of the islands. there needed to be more big, exciting islands to explore. most of the islands only contain one puzzle...then you recieve a heart piece....whoooooo!

[OB1]

That's not true. If you took all of the islands and put them together the entire world would be much bigger than OoT's (or MM's, since that was even smaller than OoT).

[Darunia]

That's just not true. I think there should be one giant mainland isle; not huge, but big enough that there could be a decent town (like Windfall), plus a lot of land around...a few puzzles. It should at least be big enough to fill an entire block on the map. I suggested sailing would be made more fun if you had a cabin aboard ship to hang out in, and smash pots...but that was just another stupid Darunia thing, as it turns out.

OoT and MM? In both you can die fairly frequently

...did I miss something; because I just...like very seldom died, excpet maybe on the tougher bosses. And I beat Ocarina EIGHT FUCKING times! Majora I never beat; gave up on end boss after one try or so...but it's the same, I really didn't die.

[A Black Falcon]

The first time through OoT I died around 80 times... sure in repeated play you die less every time (as is true with any game) but the first time it was a good challenge.

And I agree, some larger 'continent' would have been great.

[OB1]

That would have been nice, but the world of WW (just the land parts if they were added together) is still bigger than the lands in OoT and MM. If you could clip through walls it would take about five minutes to walk from one side to another in OoT. MM is even smaller.

[A Black Falcon]

That well might be true. However, I'd kind of hope that wth more powerful hardware we'd get more territory... and while it does seem bigger, when you don't count the ocean, it feels small because each area is compact...

And unlike all previous games there is a LOT less of 'just wander around doing stuff'. Islands are small so you have fewer things out of towns or villages... so it feels a lot smaller. Unavoidable with its game design, but it does... its too bad. I liked the 'wandering around in the overworld' parts a lot... and this one has very little of that.

And as I said, the ocean parts are just boring... sail sail sail. What fun.

As for MM, it had more stuff per area (by far) then OoT, but had smaller areas... I was dissapointed by how small the overworld was in that game. It was still a cool overworld, but it was just too small...

Oh, I just finished the Forbidden Forest. That boss was, once again, cool looking... but this time it was so easy that it was truly pathetic. The only other 3d Zelda boss lamer in difficulty was the amoeba in the Water Temple!

I still haven't died. Went down to half a heart once, but then I found three hearts... and against the boss? Not much of a problem. I have a fairy in bottle (which I got early in the dungeon) but haven't had to use it yet...

The game is good (though that dungeon was similar to the first dungeon in MM in some ways... and not as good as the first dungeon or the forbidden fortress...), but just too easy... its a lot less fun when you can just cruise through like this... OoT, even after playing through several times, is still harder than this game! In my game in that I'm in the second dungeon and have died three times... which is three more than after finishing the second real dungeon in WW.

It eases up in so many ways... when you hit lava you take no damage -- just get reset to the enterance of the room. If you drown (new to the series) you also reset to the area enterance you came in. Same for falling from high places in dungeons and stuff. And each dungeon has a warp both halfway and at the boss... OoT didn't have warps, but the 2d games did have one at the miniboss. Still... this makes it kind of patheic -- even if you do die (somehow...) it takes 5 seconds to get back to the boss! Another first for the series. :(

As for other things, I think we've covered the absurd number of hints the game has already. And the way it leads you around by the hand...

Maybe I'll kill myself (and not save) just to see what the game over screen looks like...

[OB1]

OoT was easy, but WW is even easier. It's a pity because it would have been even better with a higher difficulty. It's still my favorite Zelda game (second is LttP), but it could have been my favorite Gamecube game if a few things were fixed (well... maybe not. Metroid Prime rules above all... but it would have been pretty close!). I really love the sailing, though. It's so serene. And for the first time ever the world of Hyrule is actually big, even if most of it is water. ;)

But I agree, one big island would have been great. But considering how long it was in development that wouldn't have been possible. And I certainly like it more than the tiny map of Oot and MM.

[A Black Falcon]

I know everyone else found OoT easy, but it was my second Zelda games (after LA) and it was so different from that one... I found it challenging. Not really hard, but challenging.

As for the sailing, its not AWFUL or anything... its just a bit dull.

[OB1]

Well it's too bad that you can't appreciate the serenity of it.

After playing through the first four Zeldas, OoT was very easy. MM was tougher, but it still wasn't as hard as the 2D ones.

You know what I'd really love to see? A 3D remake of any of the past 2D Zeldas, using the same art style, music (fully orchestrated, of course), etc. of whichever one they choose to remake. Miyamoto even talked about how giving a new developer like NDCube or NST the task of porting over or remaking an older game is a great way of training them, so perhaps that will come to fruition some day. Or just let Flagship make one. That would be great.

[A Black Falcon]

The water seems so flat, too... it'd be nice to see big waves every once in a while...

And it probably is true that the 3d games are easier than the 2d ones. For some reason the move to 3d does seem to have eased back the difficulty... well, except for that time limit in MM. :)

[Darunia]

I think that the fake water is a trivial issue...but everyone else thinks the same about MOBLINS MOBLINS MOBLINS, so I'll shut up. As for the WW world being bigger than it seems, I don't think so....infact I'll wager than the walking area of every isle in WW could almost fit into one or two Hyrule Field in OoT. Think about it... some of the islands, like the Tower of the Gods...technically didn't have ANY land to walk on (not counting the dungeon.) Other than that, the biggest islands are what...Outset and Dragon Roost Isle. WW was awesome, but ranks third behind OoT and MM.

[OB1]

Darunia, you're off your rocker. All of the land put together from WW is definitely a lot bigger than OoT's world. Hyrule in OoT was tiny.

ABF, the water isn't flat (it's pretty wavy), but I agree that it would have been nice to have some huge tidal waves to ride on.

[A Black Falcon]

On the one hand, Hyrule of OoT wasn't that big. But on the other hand, it is true that the actual land-based non-dungeon surface that you can go to of WW is just a few medium islands and a lot of tiny islets... it probably is bigger overall but its really not that much. The water makes it feel a lot bigger, though, for sure... so I really don't know. If you include all the island space that you can't walk on its by far bigger... but some islands have a LOT of non-negociable terrain that doesn't count, so its a lot smaller.

And I have noticed a few times that the water wasn't flat. The problem is that those times are EXTREMELY infrequent... and even then its not big.

And the water is a much bigger issue than moblins! Sure there are a lot of them but as OB1 said at least they're fun to fight... the water does nothing other than look bland. That's worse. :)

[OB1]

"non-negociable terrain"?? What on earth are you talking about?

[A Black Falcon]

The parts of islands that are dark and you can't go to.

[Darunia]

Dude, we're talking about all of Hyrule Field, the land that extends to the Zora waterfall, the path to Death Mountain, Lake Hylia...you can easily fit all of the WW lands in that.

[OB1]

ABF: What parts are you talking about?

Darunia: You are wrong. I just played the games yesterday, seeing how long it took to walk all around the land. WW is much, much bigger. OoT's map is actually very tiny.