28th February 2016, 10:24 PM
(This post was last modified: 28th February 2016, 10:47 PM by A Black Falcon.)
Dark Jaguar Wrote:I just mean you need to seriously consider examining WHY you are so loyal to the democratic party.Well, once I form a strong opinion on something, I very rarely change it... I do sometimes try something I hadn't before and like it, but disliking something I once loved? Not sure if I can think of any examples of that, in memory.
Quote: You may well end up voting democrat anyway (we sure will), but maybe you don't need to give them your loyalty? Maybe they've got a lot of problems, and not just imaginary "they aren't tough enough" problems but real ideological problems that are contributing to systemic issues in society. Take some time to really compare it to progressive parties in other countries and ask yourself why our so-called "progressive party" doesn't seem to measure up. It's okay to push them a bit, to push for a candidate that reminds the party of what it supposedly stands for.You are right that the Democratic Party is much less left-wing than the left parties in most European nations, but this country is more conservative in a lot of ways than most of Europe is, so that is understandable. Considering America's electorate, I think the Democratic Party mostly does a good job policy-wise, or at least they do now and in recent decades. Yes, they are lots of things about the party I wish were more liberal (most obviously, the failure to do enough about climate change is terrible), but I do like and care about the party, so I think the best way to accomplish that is by pushing for better Democrats, not blowing up the system.
On a somewhat related note, it is true that Democratic Party insiders and party supporters prefer Hillary, while people who are less tied to the party and more to ideology prefer Bernie. I'm more in the former camp, myself.
Quote:No, I don't think you need to seriously consider joining the republicans. :D Well, maybe take a good long look at WHY they think the way they do. When you realize that deep down, they actually DO believe in authoritarian moral codes, that all morality stems from authority, and that earthly troubles like starving to death are minor compared to the glories of the afterlife earned by living according to that moral code (and they want to teach people this), THEN you'll see. You'll see they aren't lying, they aren't secretly trying to hurt women, they just don't CARE that it hurts women because it's the right thing to do. Why does this even matter? Well, only because it shows that a lot of the tactics people use to argue with them just don't work. Point out all the terrible things you like, and they'll just smile knowingly, thinking but not saying "this poor fool, so concerned with worldly troubles, just needs to learn to think of eternity". This is why they don't seem to have any empathy.This is quite interesting. What you're saying here sounds exactly like medieval European explanations for why society should stay in order, with the nobility on top and peasants below -- if you rock the boat you challenge the fate of your soul, which matters more than your earthly suffering. So it's a familiar concept to me, though not so much as applied to modern politics...
However, the Republicans do not believe in an ordered society like medieval theologians did -- they believe that you can make yourself great by making a lot of money. In the middle ages merchants were not thought highly of; the divine status of nobility did not usually just come with a fortune, but through blood.
That said, for an issue like abortion or gay rights I can absolutely see what you're talking about applying. But for taxes or something? "The rich should pay less taxes and the poor more", how does that fit with the 'stay in your place' mantra... I don't quite see it. Thinking about it though, this is what was behind that 'What is the matter with Kansas' book and concept, of people voting for social issues despite it being to their economic detriment. Well, Trump is showing that for at least some of them, just the racism without much of anything else clear (since his positions have changed constantly) is good enough for them... sad stuff.
Weltall Wrote:I was a conservative Republican Christian in large part because it was what I was taught was right, from a very early age. I never felt like I had any reason to question these things, and even if I did, it was wrong to do so. The real world taught me that just about all of it was lies. Success doesn't happen in a vacuum. Terrible things can happen that no one can possible prepare for or defend against. Morality isn't a question with a single right answer. Etc.
While I was taught to question a lot of things. Of course even on top of that I always wanted, and want, to know the 'why' behind things, this is surely a big part of it, but I certainly was taught that too, both at home and in church (Unitarian Universalist, aka the most liberal mainstream religion; went just about every week through high school, and though I haven't attended any church regularly since then, I go to the Christmas Eve service each year. A few other people who were also in our group are often there too, which is nice. But anyway.).
Quote:I see the things I used to say ten years ago and it kind of makes me sick.Heh... that's nice. I don't remember the specifics of much of our arguments (I could look up a lot of it, though, in the site's old threads...), though I certainly remember having them. I probably remember my constant arguments with OB1 about videogames more... when I think of '00s TC that's the first thing I think of. :p As for political debates though, I'm sure if I looked back I'd see some things I disagree with now, but I'd probably still agree with most of it. Hopefully that's because I was right, not just because it's hard for me to change my mind on things that it's made up about. :) ... And with that, you see my usual thing that I'm always my own worst critic and can't help but always be hard on myself even if someone says something positive about me. Ah well...
If it means anything, ABF, when I realized that my political worldview had changed to the point where I felt proud to call myself a liberal, one of the first thoughts I had was wondering what kind of reaction it would get out of you.
In general of course do like debating things on the internet, yes... though that said, much less about politics online in recent years than, say, back on TC back then; arguments on the internet go badly enough when you're 'just' discussing videogames, much less politics...