8th May 2004, 5:15 PM
Quote:You're taking it way, WAY too liberally. All I'm saying is that Mexico's military sucks; which it very well does. You claim that because Spain was beaten by Mexico, Mexico must be pretty tough there. If two retarded cripples get into a fight, one will eventually win; that doesn't mean that the winner is a superman. As for Austria, she was a superpower under the Habsurgs for centuries, but she was never a major military power unto herself. Way back to the 16th century; she survived in alliances. She was large and powerful, but a poor fighter. No matter with whom she was alligned, she inevitably failed---right up until her very last dance, WWI. She was an embarassment to Germany, who had to drain troops from the front lines to keep Italy and Russia out of Austria. She lost to France in 1859; ceded Nice and Savoy. She was a hilarious bumbling fool in the Napoleonic Wars, time and time and time again. She was persistent; the only major Austrian victory was at Leipzig---when she was helpe by Russian and Prussian troops; outnumbering Napoleon 3-1. Other than that, at Aspern-Essling, the great Austrian victory there merely forced Napoleon to withdraw for the day. They trumpeted it as saving Vienne and the war---but this was just weeks before Wagram, which was a defeat so telling that they abdicated (for the fifth time) days afterwards. Before that, Austria lost the Seven Years' War after Catherine the Great negotiated Russia out of it; she lost the War of the Spanish Succession...Austria lost, furthermore, way back in the Thirty Years' War. Inbetween she won and lost many minor wars, but all were inconsequential. Spain...well, after 1638, she was cursed. 1588 was the armada; then she lost big in the Thirty Years' War to the protestants...lost her empire piece-by-piece to the English, Dutch and French. Napoleon occupied and controlled Spain; and after he fell, her south america pride all broke free. Then, in 1898 the US kicked Spain's ass in less than a year, and took what remained of her colonial prestige in just a few months. Point being: I was right, Austria and Spain are poor fighters.
You know, even as late as the 1840s and 50s most observers gave Austria the edge over Prussia to control Germany... now, they were wrong, but the fact that Austria appeared to be so strong should mean something to you. Yes, they got weaker over time. But they were a very strong nation at one point, and your denying it doesn't change that... see, before the 1800s Nationalism was not a major force. Polygot empires were more the norm than not. Austria's struggles came along with the rise of nationalism and its spread to the peoples they dominated... but even then, the fact that Austria managed to stay in one piece until WWI means it had a competent government at the very least.
Oh, and as for WWI... sure, Austria did badly. So did the Ottoman Empire and the Russian Empire. All three fell as an effect of the war, too... and more specifically because of how poorly they fought...
Oh. Yes, in 1859 Austria was defeated by France and Piedmont-Sardinia. But France was still a very powerful nation, so it's not too surprising... note Piedmont didn't keep fighting after France stopped... and they did win SOMETIMES. For instance, when they and Prussia ganged up on Denmark... :D You ignore the 'little wars'. But they matter. They show national power as well. For instance, the wars between France and Britain in the Americas! France did well and it made them look pretty strong... which made it all the more surprising when Britain won so convincingly in the end (Montcalm and Wolfe and all that)... But their (Austria's) glory days were past in the mid 1800s. It was downhill for the rest of their existence... but Austria was still an important place, And Vienna one of the great European cities. (I've been there, but Austria, the Czech Republic, and Hungary all blend together into just a couple of things I remember...) And as I said, it shows some kind of skill to hold together such a nation for that long with a relatively weak military (though it was large and won enough most of the time to make the people proud...) and, much more importantly, the tides of nationalism rising higher and higher in Europe.
Noting wars they lost? Fine, so they didn't do as well in some wars. And they did well in others -- how do you think they expanded so far East, well into Ottoman territories? If they were as incompetent as you suggest, they wouldn't even have been anywhere near Serbia's borders in 1914, much less about to get blown apart over it...
Oh yeah, and in WWI EVERYONE was stupid. Turkey, Russia, and Austria-Hungary (official state name from the mid-1800s on... making something of a joke of Hungary's also declaring freedom after WWI...) were blown apart, but did Germany, Britain, and France really do much better? ALL the powers were stupid. The French took horrendous casualties... Oh, and against Italy at least Austria mostly held its ground. It cost massive losses, but Austria and Italy were about even... (and Italy more competent in WWI than it would be in WWII)
Quote:Spain...well, after 1638, she was cursed. 1588 was the armada; then she lost big in the Thirty Years' War to the protestants...lost her empire piece-by-piece to the English, Dutch and French. Napoleon occupied and controlled Spain; and after he fell, her south america pride all broke free. Then, in 1898 the US kicked Spain's ass in less than a year, and took what remained of her colonial prestige in just a few months. Point being: I was right, Austria and Spain are poor fighters.
Spain wasn't cursed. As I said, it was a mixture of severe talent drain because of the Inquisition (kill or convert all the Jews and Moslems!) and their flawed gold-first policy. England didn't do a gold-first policy and succeeded... Spain was focused on exploitation and making money for the treasury, not truly running good colonies. And it showed. Oh, and when that gold ran out... Spain was a shell way before 1898. It's actually amazing they clung on to some colonies that long... the US only didn't take Cuba in the mid 1800s because the Civil War started up before the South could convince the North to let them take it as another slave colony.
Quote:[b]Spain (and Austria) are the only two countries with worse military records than Mexico. They were both superpowers once; but neither has won a war in 400+ years, and isolated they couldn't win a war against an army of kittens.
Given Austria's size now, should that be surprising? :) All Austria has now is its memories of its glory days and the nice city of Vienna to keep up for the tourists. As for Spain, they don't have the best military in the world but they have one worth some mention at least... don't win wars? Most European nations don't seem to fight many wars by themselves anymore, you know. Peacekeeping, maybe (France does, anyway), but wars? Cooalitions...