1st May 2004, 11:44 AM
... ack, so much since I was last here... *reads* Huh, this post of DJ's is really the only one worth replying to... and given no one ELSE did, I should! :)
Hmm... you make an interesting point here, actually. How is it different between Mario getting some ability that he didn't have before and a Koopa's shell getting some ability IT didn't have before?
First, in a racing game the shells generally come from powerups. So you can assume that they are not just normal items but are specially made for the racing circuit, so having them have different properties is not just okay, it's expected. This would also explain homing shells of course.
As for the 'skateboard', I don't know what you mean. I don't remember a Mario game where Koopa shells have multiple properties without any explanation (like 'specially made racing weapons')... could you give an example of that? I don't remember places where Koopa shells suddenly acted completely differently from all other Koopa shells with no explanations (like it being some special Koopa, which WOULD provide an explanation -- specially modified shell! :))... Oh, I'm sure that games have done such things many times before, as I said, but I also said that it's better and much more consistent when they don't...
As for a Koopa shell being a skateboard... well, it's POSSIBLE I guess to ride on one, they do roll along the ground and at a good speed too, I don't see how that totally breaks the rules of Koopa shells to be honest. Invincible? Who knows. But being a skateboard, with no more information than that, I don't see how it's so against the rules of Koopa shells.
Isn't this what we've both been saying from the beginning? It ties right in to the thing DJ said above, though... but I want more proof of that. :)
Also, you completely failed to address ABF's VERY good point on the bubble shield. Aside from Kirby, not a single other character has this ability or anything even remotely close. It's not an item at all, it's a POWER generated via their BODIES. Yoshi uses an egg instead, everyone else uses an orb of power. You seem totally okay with this. Since when does Yoshi for example hide INSIDE an egg to protect him from attacks? I'll go ahead and oblige you on your silly double standard between items and characters and remind you that Yoshi MAKES those eggs himself.[/quote]
He said 'it's obviously an item they were given', DJ. Did you miss that? Oh, it's a somewhat weak explanation, but he DID say something. :) And it COULD be an item... how can you prove it was generated by their bodies?
As for Yoshi, he's stupid and I don't care. :D But you're right, that's another one, like Kirby, that breaks the rules...
I still think that your point "she is not known for being slow" is, well, pointless. In a game like Banjo-Kazooie, you get upgrades. They increase your abilities. Even if she WAS known for being slow, is it so hard to believe that you could give her an upgrade that *gasp* increases her speed? I'd say not!
Oh, and Captain Falcon NEVER WALKED. He was in a CAR. So they had a blank slate in SSB to work on! Why is that so hard to understand? It's Kirby or Yoshi who they broke some rules to fit into the game, not Captain Falcon.
Obviously I completely agree.
Oh, I know. I provided a few examples of games where they nonsensically do things that are not explained and don't really make sense from a story standpoint (but often do from a 'fun' standpoint -- or at least a 'this makes sense' standpoint. For what I mean by THAT, let's take Quest for Glory. As you progress through the five games in the series, you can save your character and upload it into the next one with a cooresponding increase in your stats. But the games don't really explain why the enemies are on a plane... that is, how it is that you conveniently happen to go next to an area with enemies the next step up on the difficulty ladder... most games "solve" this issue by doing like Zelda and wiping you clean after each game.). But then I said 'But it's better when they don't.'. The issue isn't if they CAN do something that makes no sense in the case of the universe, of course they could! As you say in the next paragraph they COULD make Mario as fast as Sonic if the programmers wanted. (oh, before I continue, FF doesn't count because every game is in a different world. No continuity issues there, excepting X-2.) It'd just be stupid by the rules of Mario. This is the whole point here about Kazooie... by the rules of B-K, Kazooie can't be a plane and does not fly like one! And in a racing game Kazooie would have to.
Okay, so you solved it by saying the tail propeller idea. And as OB1 said that's a decent one, provided that it's shown as a powerup or ability or something and doesn't just come out of nowhere. But my point wasn't ever just about this example, it was about the whole case of this subject (breaking the rules of your universe) in general, so that doesn't change much in relation to what I said.
Quote:OB1, first you say that items mean nothing, then you go on to say that Samus' armor is a DIFFERENT KIND of item and that it can't be removed suddenly. They DID do that, and gave her a stun gun and good jumping abilities without the suit. Yeesh, why are SOME items completely okay to change but OTHERS not? Whether it's a part of their body or not is completely irrelevent. Once something's behavior has been established, as you put it, it can't be suddenly changed with no explanation. Your double standard is painfully obvious. While it's FINE for something like a koopa shell to suddenly out of NOWHERE be a skateboard that turns mario invincible, you say it's completely different for Mario himself to suddenly, from nowhere, be able to dig underground like a mole. These are BOTH the SAME THINGS. Sure, you can say "well those are different shells", but it would be wrong to use such a defense as that just to keep your double standard intact. Fact is, the shell's behavior has been established for some time and they changed it completely out of the blue in an unexpected way. I LOVED that they did that. The fact that they are "different shells" as one could put it is totally irrelevent. It's that we EXPECTED them to act one way based on previous experience and they acted a totally unexpected way that is important. It's what WE, the PLAYERS are thinking that matters.
Hmm... you make an interesting point here, actually. How is it different between Mario getting some ability that he didn't have before and a Koopa's shell getting some ability IT didn't have before?
First, in a racing game the shells generally come from powerups. So you can assume that they are not just normal items but are specially made for the racing circuit, so having them have different properties is not just okay, it's expected. This would also explain homing shells of course.
As for the 'skateboard', I don't know what you mean. I don't remember a Mario game where Koopa shells have multiple properties without any explanation (like 'specially made racing weapons')... could you give an example of that? I don't remember places where Koopa shells suddenly acted completely differently from all other Koopa shells with no explanations (like it being some special Koopa, which WOULD provide an explanation -- specially modified shell! :))... Oh, I'm sure that games have done such things many times before, as I said, but I also said that it's better and much more consistent when they don't...
As for a Koopa shell being a skateboard... well, it's POSSIBLE I guess to ride on one, they do roll along the ground and at a good speed too, I don't see how that totally breaks the rules of Koopa shells to be honest. Invincible? Who knows. But being a skateboard, with no more information than that, I don't see how it's so against the rules of Koopa shells.
Quote:The Banjo-Kazooie set-up seen in the Banjo games would not work in a racing game because Kazooie is too slow and the flight model (if you can call it that) would be very bad for a racing game. HOWEVER, if you were to change the B-K set-up in a way that would make sense in the world of Banjo-Kazooie like how lazy just suggested, it COULD work! You could have a little cinematic in Banjo Pilot showing Kazooie with flight goggles, and Banjo asking her what the deal was. Then she'd explain that she just graduated from bird flight school and can fly just as fast as any man-made plane now that she has learned a new way of flying. You'd see her all ready to go, Banjo jump on her back, end cinema. Maybe not quite like that, but you get the idea.
Isn't this what we've both been saying from the beginning? It ties right in to the thing DJ said above, though... but I want more proof of that. :)
Also, you completely failed to address ABF's VERY good point on the bubble shield. Aside from Kirby, not a single other character has this ability or anything even remotely close. It's not an item at all, it's a POWER generated via their BODIES. Yoshi uses an egg instead, everyone else uses an orb of power. You seem totally okay with this. Since when does Yoshi for example hide INSIDE an egg to protect him from attacks? I'll go ahead and oblige you on your silly double standard between items and characters and remind you that Yoshi MAKES those eggs himself.[/quote]
He said 'it's obviously an item they were given', DJ. Did you miss that? Oh, it's a somewhat weak explanation, but he DID say something. :) And it COULD be an item... how can you prove it was generated by their bodies?
As for Yoshi, he's stupid and I don't care. :D But you're right, that's another one, like Kirby, that breaks the rules...
Quote:You may at this point say the same silly thing you said about Captain Falcon "Well, you never saw him outside the car before" would transform into "you don't know his eggs couldn't do that before!". Mind you, your very argument here defeats you. If you can argue that there was no evidence Captain Falcon or Yoshi COULDN'T do those things, then I can just as easily point out there's no evidence at all that Kazooie CAN'T fly like a Diddy Kong Racing plane. As I've said again and again, Kazooie is known for being able to fly, she's known for spitting eggs, and known for being on the back of a bear. However, she is NOT known for being slow. You may have noticed this as an aside in those two games, but it's CERTAINLY not a trademark quality of the bird.
I still think that your point "she is not known for being slow" is, well, pointless. In a game like Banjo-Kazooie, you get upgrades. They increase your abilities. Even if she WAS known for being slow, is it so hard to believe that you could give her an upgrade that *gasp* increases her speed? I'd say not!
Oh, and Captain Falcon NEVER WALKED. He was in a CAR. So they had a blank slate in SSB to work on! Why is that so hard to understand? It's Kirby or Yoshi who they broke some rules to fit into the game, not Captain Falcon.
Quote:And yes, you say "this is the stupidest thing ever" and "You have really disappointed me" every SINGLE time someone, anyone, disagrees with you. It's not just rude, it's a blatent bit of self deception. You know as well as anyone that the probability of each argument ACTUALLY being worse than the last, each and every time, is just too low to be true. Also, if I have "completely dissappointed you" or "you have lost all respect for me" the last time, then how can it happen AGAIN? Did I do something amazing that GAINED your respect between arguments or something? In effect, where I previously thought you had 0 respect from me the entire time, I suddenly found out you had some respect for me for a while before this, and so I'm actually FLATTERED (kidding, I honestly don't care what you think about me at this point). Honestly, you need to learn some manners and common decency. You know why we never get mad at lazy, even with those VERY off color remarks? It's because he manages to convey VERY well an aura of respect for our opinions and we respect him back for it. You haven't managed to do that for ANYONE in a LONG time.
Your comments that "not a single person here has any debate skills except me" proves your egotism and outright rudeness. Now, look I"m not trying to insult you, well maybe a little, but the fact is you never once consider even the possibility that it's not that everyone here is a moron, but perhaps that you are in fact very bad at recognizing valid points when they go against what you think. Try and at least consider that you might be wrong. It is NOT a sign of weakness to admit defeat! It's NOT!
Obviously I completely agree.
Quote:And just to finish up, games always do completely unexpected things to their characters all the time, and character or item, it's irrelevent. The important bit is what we EXPECT them to do and how their behaviors and abilities match up. It's a good thing. There's an entire series that shares ONLY the name in common with the others, and the only connection IS the side items and some creatures. I call it "Final Fantasy". The entire theme, world, story, characters, and ability systems (and sometimes the battle system itself) is different in each game. In fact, FFX-2, where it was actually using the same world and some characters, was actually a huge CHANGE from the norm. It worked out though. I wouldn't want to be limited in what I can do as a designer just because someone doesn't think a character or item or world or whatever (it's all the same, your argument has been done to death on many things, and when it's disregarded magic happens, but when the developers try too much to please the existing fans, stagnation happens, see Street Fighter) can do something.
Oh, I know. I provided a few examples of games where they nonsensically do things that are not explained and don't really make sense from a story standpoint (but often do from a 'fun' standpoint -- or at least a 'this makes sense' standpoint. For what I mean by THAT, let's take Quest for Glory. As you progress through the five games in the series, you can save your character and upload it into the next one with a cooresponding increase in your stats. But the games don't really explain why the enemies are on a plane... that is, how it is that you conveniently happen to go next to an area with enemies the next step up on the difficulty ladder... most games "solve" this issue by doing like Zelda and wiping you clean after each game.). But then I said 'But it's better when they don't.'. The issue isn't if they CAN do something that makes no sense in the case of the universe, of course they could! As you say in the next paragraph they COULD make Mario as fast as Sonic if the programmers wanted. (oh, before I continue, FF doesn't count because every game is in a different world. No continuity issues there, excepting X-2.) It'd just be stupid by the rules of Mario. This is the whole point here about Kazooie... by the rules of B-K, Kazooie can't be a plane and does not fly like one! And in a racing game Kazooie would have to.
Okay, so you solved it by saying the tail propeller idea. And as OB1 said that's a decent one, provided that it's shown as a powerup or ability or something and doesn't just come out of nowhere. But my point wasn't ever just about this example, it was about the whole case of this subject (breaking the rules of your universe) in general, so that doesn't change much in relation to what I said.