29th April 2004, 2:09 PM
No, OB1 is just changing his argument to whatever you haven't utterly smashed apart with your SUPERIOR EDUCATION IN THE MATTER. OB1, lazy's opinion IS more valid and correct than yours and it's SOLEY because he's taken more game design classes than you.
OB1, first you say that items mean nothing, then you go on to say that Samus' armor is a DIFFERENT KIND of item and that it can't be removed suddenly. They DID do that, and gave her a stun gun and good jumping abilities without the suit. Yeesh, why are SOME items completely okay to change but OTHERS not? Whether it's a part of their body or not is completely irrelevent. Once something's behavior has been established, as you put it, it can't be suddenly changed with no explanation. Your double standard is painfully obvious. While it's FINE for something like a koopa shell to suddenly out of NOWHERE be a skateboard that turns mario invincible, you say it's completely different for Mario himself to suddenly, from nowhere, be able to dig underground like a mole. These are BOTH the SAME THINGS. Sure, you can say "well those are different shells", but it would be wrong to use such a defense as that just to keep your double standard intact. Fact is, the shell's behavior has been established for some time and they changed it completely out of the blue in an unexpected way. I LOVED that they did that. The fact that they are "different shells" as one could put it is totally irrelevent. It's that we EXPECTED them to act one way based on previous experience and they acted a totally unexpected way that is important. It's what WE, the PLAYERS are thinking that matters.
Also, you completely failed to address ABF's VERY good point on the bubble shield. Aside from Kirby, not a single other character has this ability or anything even remotely close. It's not an item at all, it's a POWER generated via their BODIES. Yoshi uses an egg instead, everyone else uses an orb of power. You seem totally okay with this. Since when does Yoshi for example hide INSIDE an egg to protect him from attacks? I'll go ahead and oblige you on your silly double standard between items and characters and remind you that Yoshi MAKES those eggs himself.
You may at this point say the same silly thing you said about Captain Falcon "Well, you never saw him outside the car before" would transform into "you don't know his eggs couldn't do that before!". Mind you, your very argument here defeats you. If you can argue that there was no evidence Captain Falcon or Yoshi COULDN'T do those things, then I can just as easily point out there's no evidence at all that Kazooie CAN'T fly like a Diddy Kong Racing plane. As I've said again and again, Kazooie is known for being able to fly, she's known for spitting eggs, and known for being on the back of a bear. However, she is NOT known for being slow. You may have noticed this as an aside in those two games, but it's CERTAINLY not a trademark quality of the bird.
And yes, you say "this is the stupidest thing ever" and "You have really disappointed me" every SINGLE time someone, anyone, disagrees with you. It's not just rude, it's a blatent bit of self deception. You know as well as anyone that the probability of each argument ACTUALLY being worse than the last, each and every time, is just too low to be true. Also, if I have "completely dissappointed you" or "you have lost all respect for me" the last time, then how can it happen AGAIN? Did I do something amazing that GAINED your respect between arguments or something? In effect, where I previously thought you had 0 respect from me the entire time, I suddenly found out you had some respect for me for a while before this, and so I'm actually FLATTERED :D (kidding, I honestly don't care what you think about me at this point). Honestly, you need to learn some manners and common decency. You know why we never get mad at lazy, even with those VERY off color remarks? It's because he manages to convey VERY well an aura of respect for our opinions and we respect him back for it. You haven't managed to do that for ANYONE in a LONG time.
Your comments that "not a single person here has any debate skills except me" proves your egotism and outright rudeness. Now, look I"m not trying to insult you, well maybe a little, but the fact is you never once consider even the possibility that it's not that everyone here is a moron, but perhaps that you are in fact very bad at recognizing valid points when they go against what you think. Try and at least consider that you might be wrong. It is NOT a sign of weakness to admit defeat! It's NOT!
I don't claim to be perfect. I'm in this debate that for all intents and purposes has been over for some time after all. However, you need to acknowledge your own lack of social graces you know? Seriously, if you can respond to this VERY harsh assesment by me without completely getting angry, without ANY sort of attack, maybe just by saying "I see you have issues with me, I won't respond to your attacks, but rather just step out", it would show a HUGE improvement.
And just to finish up, games always do completely unexpected things to their characters all the time, and character or item, it's irrelevent. The important bit is what we EXPECT them to do and how their behaviors and abilities match up. It's a good thing. There's an entire series that shares ONLY the name in common with the others, and the only connection IS the side items and some creatures. I call it "Final Fantasy". The entire theme, world, story, characters, and ability systems (and sometimes the battle system itself) is different in each game. In fact, FFX-2, where it was actually using the same world and some characters, was actually a huge CHANGE from the norm. It worked out though. I wouldn't want to be limited in what I can do as a designer just because someone doesn't think a character or item or world or whatever (it's all the same, your argument has been done to death on many things, and when it's disregarded magic happens, but when the developers try too much to please the existing fans, stagnation happens, see Street Fighter) can do something.
OB1, open up your imagination. I still think that deep down you are fully aware of how cool it would be to fly as our favorite orange freak bird, but have managed to convince yourself that this, a slight change in controls and some speed I guess, COMPLETELY undermine what she represents. Trust me, it doesn't. Whether it's major as a change or not is irrelevent. You point out Mario vs Sonic, and how horrible it would be, as you say, to suddenly boost Mario's speed. Why would that be so aweful anyway? Mario is only known for being slow in the context of Sonic's existance. If Sonic never existed, it wouldn't be an issue would it? You'd think "hey, what if Mario suddenly gained super speed in one game?". You are limiting Mario's potential only because another developer's creation already fills that "niche", and it's silly. Developers often take their franchises and toss them into other accepted genres. Wars is going Real Time, even though it had been known as an "alternative to real time" by a lot of people. I as a developer won't let that others did it before limit me, so long as I don't outright COPY it, and I think you know if Shiggy ever did decide to make Mario super fast for one game, it'd certainly be a lot different than a Sonic game.
OB1, first you say that items mean nothing, then you go on to say that Samus' armor is a DIFFERENT KIND of item and that it can't be removed suddenly. They DID do that, and gave her a stun gun and good jumping abilities without the suit. Yeesh, why are SOME items completely okay to change but OTHERS not? Whether it's a part of their body or not is completely irrelevent. Once something's behavior has been established, as you put it, it can't be suddenly changed with no explanation. Your double standard is painfully obvious. While it's FINE for something like a koopa shell to suddenly out of NOWHERE be a skateboard that turns mario invincible, you say it's completely different for Mario himself to suddenly, from nowhere, be able to dig underground like a mole. These are BOTH the SAME THINGS. Sure, you can say "well those are different shells", but it would be wrong to use such a defense as that just to keep your double standard intact. Fact is, the shell's behavior has been established for some time and they changed it completely out of the blue in an unexpected way. I LOVED that they did that. The fact that they are "different shells" as one could put it is totally irrelevent. It's that we EXPECTED them to act one way based on previous experience and they acted a totally unexpected way that is important. It's what WE, the PLAYERS are thinking that matters.
Also, you completely failed to address ABF's VERY good point on the bubble shield. Aside from Kirby, not a single other character has this ability or anything even remotely close. It's not an item at all, it's a POWER generated via their BODIES. Yoshi uses an egg instead, everyone else uses an orb of power. You seem totally okay with this. Since when does Yoshi for example hide INSIDE an egg to protect him from attacks? I'll go ahead and oblige you on your silly double standard between items and characters and remind you that Yoshi MAKES those eggs himself.
You may at this point say the same silly thing you said about Captain Falcon "Well, you never saw him outside the car before" would transform into "you don't know his eggs couldn't do that before!". Mind you, your very argument here defeats you. If you can argue that there was no evidence Captain Falcon or Yoshi COULDN'T do those things, then I can just as easily point out there's no evidence at all that Kazooie CAN'T fly like a Diddy Kong Racing plane. As I've said again and again, Kazooie is known for being able to fly, she's known for spitting eggs, and known for being on the back of a bear. However, she is NOT known for being slow. You may have noticed this as an aside in those two games, but it's CERTAINLY not a trademark quality of the bird.
And yes, you say "this is the stupidest thing ever" and "You have really disappointed me" every SINGLE time someone, anyone, disagrees with you. It's not just rude, it's a blatent bit of self deception. You know as well as anyone that the probability of each argument ACTUALLY being worse than the last, each and every time, is just too low to be true. Also, if I have "completely dissappointed you" or "you have lost all respect for me" the last time, then how can it happen AGAIN? Did I do something amazing that GAINED your respect between arguments or something? In effect, where I previously thought you had 0 respect from me the entire time, I suddenly found out you had some respect for me for a while before this, and so I'm actually FLATTERED :D (kidding, I honestly don't care what you think about me at this point). Honestly, you need to learn some manners and common decency. You know why we never get mad at lazy, even with those VERY off color remarks? It's because he manages to convey VERY well an aura of respect for our opinions and we respect him back for it. You haven't managed to do that for ANYONE in a LONG time.
Your comments that "not a single person here has any debate skills except me" proves your egotism and outright rudeness. Now, look I"m not trying to insult you, well maybe a little, but the fact is you never once consider even the possibility that it's not that everyone here is a moron, but perhaps that you are in fact very bad at recognizing valid points when they go against what you think. Try and at least consider that you might be wrong. It is NOT a sign of weakness to admit defeat! It's NOT!
I don't claim to be perfect. I'm in this debate that for all intents and purposes has been over for some time after all. However, you need to acknowledge your own lack of social graces you know? Seriously, if you can respond to this VERY harsh assesment by me without completely getting angry, without ANY sort of attack, maybe just by saying "I see you have issues with me, I won't respond to your attacks, but rather just step out", it would show a HUGE improvement.
And just to finish up, games always do completely unexpected things to their characters all the time, and character or item, it's irrelevent. The important bit is what we EXPECT them to do and how their behaviors and abilities match up. It's a good thing. There's an entire series that shares ONLY the name in common with the others, and the only connection IS the side items and some creatures. I call it "Final Fantasy". The entire theme, world, story, characters, and ability systems (and sometimes the battle system itself) is different in each game. In fact, FFX-2, where it was actually using the same world and some characters, was actually a huge CHANGE from the norm. It worked out though. I wouldn't want to be limited in what I can do as a designer just because someone doesn't think a character or item or world or whatever (it's all the same, your argument has been done to death on many things, and when it's disregarded magic happens, but when the developers try too much to please the existing fans, stagnation happens, see Street Fighter) can do something.
OB1, open up your imagination. I still think that deep down you are fully aware of how cool it would be to fly as our favorite orange freak bird, but have managed to convince yourself that this, a slight change in controls and some speed I guess, COMPLETELY undermine what she represents. Trust me, it doesn't. Whether it's major as a change or not is irrelevent. You point out Mario vs Sonic, and how horrible it would be, as you say, to suddenly boost Mario's speed. Why would that be so aweful anyway? Mario is only known for being slow in the context of Sonic's existance. If Sonic never existed, it wouldn't be an issue would it? You'd think "hey, what if Mario suddenly gained super speed in one game?". You are limiting Mario's potential only because another developer's creation already fills that "niche", and it's silly. Developers often take their franchises and toss them into other accepted genres. Wars is going Real Time, even though it had been known as an "alternative to real time" by a lot of people. I as a developer won't let that others did it before limit me, so long as I don't outright COPY it, and I think you know if Shiggy ever did decide to make Mario super fast for one game, it'd certainly be a lot different than a Sonic game.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)