Banjo Pilot

[A Black Falcon]

There is nothing flawed with that logic. Kirby is still using the same powers while Kazooie is never fast or jet-like. You could give her constant speed boosts, but those boosts shoot you off in one, uncontrollable direction. If there were some magical feather that let her fly really fast and like an airplane then that would be a different story.

Yeah, it's not quite what Kazooie can do. But Kirby can't have two powers at the same time either, in any of his games... and has never had the inhale attack and a special at the same time anywhere other than SSB...

But you're right about how in B-K/T the boost goes in one direction. And that Kazooie can hover much better than a plane. But you know what? They make racing games with more than one kind of vehicle, so as long as they make it balance out overall that's okay...

There is no significant difference in speed between the Mario games. The difference in speed DJ and lazy are suggesting for Kazooie would be incredible, more akin to the difference of Mario and Sonic.

Mario can actually run at a good clip in some of those games... okay it's not Sonic speeds, but it's not slow. :)

And DKR isn't fast. Oh, it's faster, but fast? No. Sure, B-K/T aren't exactly quick-moving platformers, but as you say DKR's a slow racing game...

Yup, those are very typical Loony Toons physics. If a plane has no gas, it doesn't crash, it just stops mid-air. If you don't understand what gravity is, it won't affect you. All great stuff, but if you know your Loony Toons it's surprisingly consistent. It seems like mad randomness but the creators did strive for consistency.

True. Like how people never fall until they look down.

Mario does run slightly faster in the 2D games than in the 3D ones, but it's nothing inconsistent. Seriously, the man has gotten old. He can't run as fast as he used to be able to.

That's a unique explanation... :D

But how about Zelda 2? Or why Mario gets a health meter in Mario 64 instead of shrinking? Or related to Mario 64, how come in Mario 64 being in water heals you when you go underwater and then above but in Sunshine that is not true? Not to mention how suddenly in 64 Mario gains the ability to drown... :) (if in the old ones they'd put a snorkel or something on him it'd explain it, but they didn't...)

Of course for this the alternative isn't much better... a silly plot device to explain away necessities. Like how Samus always loses her stuff between games, or how Link loses his stuff between games (that use the same Links!), etc, etc...

Fine, so I'm undermining my case by saying how common it is to break your serieses established laws. Oh well. But it does seem to be that serieses make a extremely common practice of nonsensical story decisions to make the gameplay better (so you don't start super-powerful, etc)... they could do it for flying Kazooie too, it wouldn't be much worse than any of the things I mentioned here...

Well that's because you get worse and worse with each debate.

Seriously, even you have to admit that this debate is inanely stupid.

It doesn't seem that much worse than usual... from my view better in some ways because it's not just me arguing with you... :)

All of the characters in SSB have those orb shields, so it's natural to assume that that's what they were given before the fight.

Unless you say they're animated dolls or something based on that toybox in the intro of the first game... with super-special shields!

They could, and I said that. But just like you said they'd have to come up with a dumb explanation and it would really be pointless.

What it really comes down to is if you want to ride Kazooie in a racing game... they could do it if they wanted to. But I agree with you, obviously, on the matter. :)

An "exact duplicate", eh? This right here is proof of how poor your argument in this debate is. An exact duplicate would mean that Kazooie would control just like a plane (funny how planes don't flap upwards, and that there is no acceleration button), and have the same speed as a DKR plane, which she most certainly does not.

Hmm... yeah, in B-T Kazooie accelerates by hitting the button and going upwards. You're right, that's the opposite of a plane, which accelerates downwards and decellerates upwards. And Kazooie can hover kind of like a helicopter. So obviously she would be a different flying experience... honestly it could be annoying if you had to use boost -- acclerate in a cave, go up and hit the roof in front of a tunnel exit? You can't have her accelerate up in a boost as the main form of acceleration in a racing game, you're right about that. It just would not work and would not be fun to have to consantly hit the button.

If it was auto, with a normal racing 'hold button to acclerate'... if she accelerated UP instead of forward or forward and a bit down, like a real plane... as I said, that would just not work! You'd need to come up with some way of having her accelerate forwards, instead of up, and of adding brakes... but does that work with a BIRD? Birds accelerate by flapping... it could, I guess. Just have normal flapping be a hover/straight forward kind instead of up -- it wouldn't be too hard to imagine her flying like a real bird, would it? Especially if you gave her some powerup so that she doesn't have to use the feathers to accelerate up, which is why she accelerates in the direction she does...

So, I'd say, if you really wanted it you could solve it with a stupid "she got a super-feather!" explanation, and it'd be plausible, mostly. You'd still have issues, like why she suddenly controls more like a bird and doesn't have the same movement (as you say you'd have to alter, in addition to the acceleration and decelleration and speed, the turning...)... I don't know how to easily explain away those things, Lazy. I'm not completely agreeing with OB1, but those are real issues that you would have to deal with if you don't want a contradiction.

(Now, of course, I just say again that you can create games that are contradictions, and it happens all the time, but it's better when you don't.)

Banjo-Tooie was a rare exception to that rule that sequels do stupid stuff to make the game easier to make (so you don't start with all the upgrades), though, so in future Banjo games at least they should TRY to keep it plausible...