29th April 2004, 12:07 PM
ABF Wrote:]You weaken your arguements here, OB1. You say that it's not okay in some cases but it is in others? So it's fine to have Kirby always have a hammer and sword, but not fine for Kazooie to have a permanant speed boost? That is NOT logical, and is a blatant flaw in your arguement...
There is nothing flawed with that logic. Kirby is still using the same powers while Kazooie is never fast or jet-like. You could give her constant speed boosts, but those boosts shoot you off in one, uncontrollable direction. If there were some magical feather that let her fly really fast and like an airplane then that would be a different story.
Quote:As I said, Nintendo does do this... after all, play SMB3 and then SML2! In SML2 Mario runs significantly slower... OB1, how do you explain the difference here in run speed? For Mario 64 (which is also slower than Mario 1 or 3) you can say something about the differences in 3D, but between 2d platformers... it's not so bad that it's a blatant flaw or something, and it's explained by differing gameplay systems, but still... it is something that should be considered. Companies can and do do things like this, especially when changing genre (like 2d to 3d or platformer to racing).There is no significant difference in speed between the Mario games. The difference in speed DJ and lazy are suggesting for Kazooie would be incredible, more akin to the difference of Mario and Sonic.
Quote:Look, I don't like the idea of Banjo riding Kazooie in a racing game. I think it'd require a stupid story explanation -- Kazooie would have to have some special item that gives her permanant extra speed (to not break and that'd be kind of dumb. And anyway I just like mini planes more! But to be consistent, I have to say that if they really wanted to they could.They could, and I said that. But just like you said they'd have to come up with a dumb explanation and it would really be pointless.
But I'd play as the mini-plane.
Quote:Oh, about Kazooie's speed. OB1, you constantly call her 'very slow'. Well, I wasn't exactly impressed by the blinding speeds in DKR! If this was that speed, Kazooie just might be able to catch up... sure, there're still major problems because it probably isn't fast enough and you need to deal with some special powerup to give her extra speed that doesn't require mashing a button the whole time you play the game, but I just wanted to say that kart racers aren't super fast speed games anyway.
No they're not super fast, but they're several times faster than Banjo-Kazooie. B-K is slow even for a platformer, so comparing it to even the slowest of racing games is foolish.
Quote:I remember this one WWII Bugs Bunny cartoon where he's in a plane (a bomber, but on a base in the US) with this gremlin thing... in the end they head for the ground in a unstoppable dive straight down, and a foot above the ground the plane runs out of fuel and stops dead...
Yup, those are very typical Loony Toons physics. If a plane has no gas, it doesn't crash, it just stops mid-air. If you don't understand what gravity is, it won't affect you. All great stuff, but if you know your Loony Toons it's surprisingly consistent. It seems like mad randomness but the creators did strive for consistency.
Quote:Sorry if I disbelieve you, but you say this every single time... I think you just always think that the CURRENT one is the worst.
Well that's because you get worse and worse with each debate. :p
Seriously, even you have to admit that this debate is inanely stupid.
Quote:This backs up what I said above -- what about differences between games? OB1 you can (rightly) ignore powerup differences, but speed, etc? I mean... okay, so in Mario 64 Mario has gymnastics and doesn't before... but that actually makes sense, since the first Mario game with them was '94's DK'94 and there wasn't another Mario game after that (Yoshi's Island isn't Mario!) until Mario 64...Mario does run slightly faster in the 2D games than in the 3D ones, but it's nothing inconsistent. Seriously, the man has gotten old. He can't run as fast as he used to be able to.
But the speed differences between the other games? Oh, sure, the Mario series has no continuity or anything and it's done because each game's engine runs a bit different, so it's not exactly a 'problem'. Just a point I want to raise. I could also talk about hitpoints, or Zelda 2, or plenty of other things, but one example is enough really...
Quote:As for SSB, DJ, you're absolutely right about them levelling things out to even it. And OB1, they DO do more than just Kirby for big changes -- look at the Shields! In their real games noone has a magical shield around them...
All of the characters in SSB have those orb shields, so it's natural to assume that that's what they were given before the fight.
lazy Wrote:OB1 you are disregarding my factual statements taken from game designer books at Fullsail. But it doesn't matter. if you're not going to acknowledge factual information then the debate is certainly over.Your "factual" information? All you've done in this debate is make terrible comparisons and ignore facts such as how much faster the vehicles in DKR are than Banjo-Kazooie. If this is what you've learned in Fullsail then I suggest you run over there right now and demand a refund for your tuition.
Quote:Kazooie doesn't need to fly like a jet, she needs to fly like a DKR plane, which she already does. I just played DKR and the planes actually move up and down slower than Kazooie can, she can dive bomb in any direction, including straight down. She did that by wrapping her wings around herself and shooting like a rocket, that could be her boost animation. You say her degree of movement is only slight, when in fact it's more precise than the planes. Which is logical since in B~K you need excellent control over her flight to land on platforms without falling, or dying.Again this is you not paying attention to me.
I said that Kazooie's movement is too precise for a racing game. Part of the challenge in a good racing game is handling your craft. The fact that Kazooie is easier to handle proves my point. She was made to fly in a platformer and it would not work in a racing game without a great change of her abilities and some explanation of that change.
Quote:D-Pad aim's flight directionAn "exact duplicate", eh? This right here is proof of how poor your argument in this debate is. An exact duplicate would mean that Kazooie would control just like a plane (funny how planes don't flap upwards, and that there is no acceleration button), and have the same speed as a DKR plane, which she most certainly does not.
A Button; Tap to flap wings sending Kazooie up or down quickly depending on direction. Hold to glide, steer with D-pad.
B button could be easily made in to an air brake.
R can be tilt for tighter turning. Double tap R; while nosing up to loop, while pressing left or right to barrel roll. Hold R and B to turn quickly.
L Eggs; Hold to get a target, release to fire. Tap to fire without target.
To upgrade eggs, collect the same color balloon up to 3 times.
Red/yellow Ballons:
Normal Blue Egg. Fires in a straight line.
Flame Egg. Homes in on target.
Nest Egg. Fire 10 Normal Blue eggs.
Yellow/purple balloons
Green Glowing Egg. 3 Second Sheild
Blue Glowing Egg. 5 second Shield
Purple Glowing Egg. 10 second Shield
Green/brown balloons
Black Egg. Kazooie passes gas and leaves a cloud behind her.
Spiked Egg. Kazooie leaves a proximity mine behind her.
The Smoking Egg. Kazooie leaves a rotten egg that explodes on contact and immobolizes them temporarily.
Blue/yellow balloons
Gold Egg. the smallest boost, let go of gas to get the most of it.
Jeweled Egg. Larger boost, let go of gas for the best effect.
Clockwork Kazooie Egg. A mechanical kazooie grabs on to Banjo and gives B~K a 3 second jet booster.
Select; Change camera
As you can see, with only slight tweaking, Kazooie is now an exact duplicate of the plane without altering any of her abilities or character. Whether you agree or not, I have proven that Kazooie would be a fine replacement for the DKR plane.
Quote:One of the teachers at Fullsail who teaches character modeling and interaction completely agrees with me, she also loves DKR and B~K, and would love to see Kazooie instead of the plane. Now if someone more educated than you and I put together on the topic of character design and player interaction says i'm right, then you have to stop and think.Uh-huh, and how in-depth was this discussion with your teacher? Forgive me for not believing you but I don't think this teacher has all of the facts regarding this debate and has put a lot of thought into it.
And I'm curious, which games has this teacher worked on?
Quote:You should also notice, OB1, that no one else is posting in this thread other than DJ. because everyone at this board knows that you simply argue for no reason, even when presented with factual data and being proven wrong you continue to argue just for the sake of arguing. Because of that... no one wants to have a REAL debate as long as you're there, because you simply tell everyone you're right without proving anything. I'm not trying to dog you, this is just what i've noticed from this thread alone, as if i was a newbie.There are three other people besides me who get into debates at Tendo City. ABF, who gets into debates with everyone; Weltall, who mainly gets into political debates with ABF; and DJ, who debates mostly with me once in a while but never stays to finish it.
You have no facts to back up your debates, much like most people I debate with at this place rarely ever do. You've presented some fine ideas but have ignored some very important facts such as the speed of Kazooie, and have made up others (DKR not being faster than B-K). Come back to me when you have something more to back up your arguments with.
Quote:This debate is over unless you can provide concrete factual data that Kazooie cannot act like a plane in DKR. (yes, this is a trick question, of course Kazooie can act like anything, she even turns in to a torpedo for God's sake, all i'm doing now is trying to push you further to make you look even more rediculous, no offence. But hopefully it will help you realize how impossible you are to have a friendly debate where opinions are shared, not forced)If you want I can make some videos comparing Kazooie flying through a level of Banjo-Tooie and Banjo flying a plane in DKR.
How about this, since you're so eager for me to prove you wrong yet unable to prove your own self right, why don't you make a video showing Banjo-Kazooie fly as fast as any vehicle in DKR, and we'll let the people here judge for themselves which is faster. And remember that Kazooie's rocket blast move (whatever it's called) does not give you precision and flying through a course like that would make for a terrible racing game.