29th April 2004, 9:57 AM
DJ/ I've already addressed your points and will not repeat myself again.
Lazy, let me stop you right there. Jinjos fly like planes. Kazooie flaps upwards and can glide at a slight angle downwards. If Banjo Pilot was not a typical racing game and you started from say, the top of a mountain and had to race your way downwards, Kazooie might work. But she can't fly like a plane!
Samus' abilities are not inherent like Kazooie's are. They completely rely upon upgrades to her armor, and just because in one game she doesn't have the same upgrades doesn't mean that she couldn't have different upgrades in a different game.
Lazy I don't know when's the last time you played DKR and a Banjo game, but Banjo can most certainly NOT run as fast as a DKR vehicle can. Not even with gold feathers. If you were to put B-K into DKR and race against the DKR characters in their vehicles, they would have no chance against them. And it has nothing to do with textures. Play the games side-by-side. If you don't have two N64's and two TV's, borrow them from somebody. I assure you that Banjo is definitely not as fast as any vehicle in DKR.
Removing a power-up from one game is not contradictory in the slightest meaning of the word. I don't know why you cannot understand this. Kazooie does not fly like a jet.
You're right, we didn't see a lot of jinjos flying in any of the game, but we did see some flying, flying that was definitely more like an airplane than a bird. I'm sure there are some stronger jinjos out there that could carry someone like Banjo.
That sounds good and everything when you completely disregard how Kazooie flies, but in reality it would not work unless they drastically changed her speed and flight capabilities.
I'm sorry lazy but your whole argument is flawed, you use examples to back up your points which don't even address the points that I've made. You have not listened to anything I have said, instead deciding to draw parallels from other games which are in no way similar to Kazooie's flight capabilities. You do not understand the difference between inherent abilities and power-ups. Kazooie's flight is an inherent ability, while Samus' space jump and Mario's raccoon suits are all power-ups. If you were to take Samus out of her suit and give her the power of flight, it would seem ridiculous and contradictory to what has already been established. Altering or taking away power-ups are in no way contradictory to the characters, and if you cannot understand this very simple concept then indeed, there is no point in continuing this debate with you.
Quote:OB1 you seem to be agreeing with me but you act like the debate is still going on. You agree that Jinjos would be okay since they can fly like planes. Kazooie can also fly like a plane (or more like a hang glider) yet you wouldn't want to see her in a video game as a... flying vehicle... which she already is?
Lazy, let me stop you right there. Jinjos fly like planes. Kazooie flaps upwards and can glide at a slight angle downwards. If Banjo Pilot was not a typical racing game and you started from say, the top of a mountain and had to race your way downwards, Kazooie might work. But she can't fly like a plane!
Quote:Then you say that you have no problem with being presented with a new controller setup or guide lines of controlling and using that character, and yet you disregard the idea of Kazooie being used in racing game? Why is it okay for Banjo and not Kazooie? Then again, you say that if the game presents the idea in a way that makes sense to the gameplayer, you can COMPLETELY alter the consistency (as with the Prime space jump boots) and it will be okay, because the game made it out that way? How was the Prime Space Jump presented to you matter-of-factly? It simply exists with the name of old power up that does something completely different. In essence, it's a totally new power up... yet it reuses the old name. While in Metroid Fusion, the Space Jump exists there as well but you can jump in to flight. It also exists in Zero Mission and allows you jump in to flight. Yet in Prime, it is completely different without any explanation... and you're okay with that?
Samus' abilities are not inherent like Kazooie's are. They completely rely upon upgrades to her armor, and just because in one game she doesn't have the same upgrades doesn't mean that she couldn't have different upgrades in a different game.
Quote:This is confusing me... you say that if you put a DKR track in a B~K game... it would take you longer to race through it... I don’t understand... how do you know that? Is the gravity different in B~K as compared to DKR? Since, I’m assuming you know, the in-game conversion of inches to feet is the same ratio in most Rare games, it's only the dimensions that change. Banjo at full speed will cover the same amount of ground as a DKR kart in the same amount of time. It only feels faster because one, the tracks in DKR are much smaller than any of the world's in either B~K game and the character models (in their vehicles) are larger than Banjo. This was done so that Rare could test out their new skinning method, where an entire texture map is wrapped around a skeleton, hence why the characters in DKR look seamless. In Goldeneye and Perfeck Dark, the textures and the poly models are huge to create scope and physical resonance, the props and sets are virtually 'life size' in terms of inches to feet. But Joanna will cover the same amount of ground as Banjo would or as the DKR hovercraft would in the same amount of time, if you could convert their scales (essentially making them all the same 'size').
Lazy I don't know when's the last time you played DKR and a Banjo game, but Banjo can most certainly NOT run as fast as a DKR vehicle can. Not even with gold feathers. If you were to put B-K into DKR and race against the DKR characters in their vehicles, they would have no chance against them. And it has nothing to do with textures. Play the games side-by-side. If you don't have two N64's and two TV's, borrow them from somebody. I assure you that Banjo is definitely not as fast as any vehicle in DKR.
Quote:You say that since we weren't presented with powerups that would allow flight in Mario Sunshine, it's not contradictory even though the past 3 games (spanning several years... a decade or more) allowed you to fly. However if I reverse the situation and present you with a game where an established character does something completely new and has never done it before, it would be... contradictory? We're not even talking about a completely new ability either... it's what Kazooie does best; Carry Banjo around and give him flight.
Removing a power-up from one game is not contradictory in the slightest meaning of the word. I don't know why you cannot understand this. Kazooie does not fly like a jet.
Quote:Then finally (I’ll stop it here because there are way too many directions to take this argument for me to prove my points), you say you have no problem with Jinjos acting like airplanes. I'm glad you walked in to this one, Jinjos never flied at any point in either B~K game. In fact, they stood still, silent (occasionally whistling and yelling 'over here!') until you touched them where upon they would be 'freed' and would disappear. The only "flight" they had, are when they were disappearing they encircled Banjo and yelled 'Jinjo!'. They would float, I’ll give you that, but they floated in the air just as any other item would when you grab it. Now it is true that at the end of B~K you had to 'fire' Jinjos like rockets at Grunty, but there is obviously no controlled flight (since you had to aim them) and they can only move through the air in short bursts. And yet knowing this (I’m assuming you played both games) you still state that Jinjos would make a better candidate for replacing the plane for Banjo in Banjo Pilot rather than Kazooie, who can not only move in short bursts but could also do barrel rolls, glide infinitely, dive and climb at break-neck speeds and do all of this while carrying a 250 pound bear. Now which is more contradicting?
You're right, we didn't see a lot of jinjos flying in any of the game, but we did see some flying, flying that was definitely more like an airplane than a bird. I'm sure there are some stronger jinjos out there that could carry someone like Banjo.
Quote:Let me give you an example of how it would work.
The race is starting, the words "Get Ready!" appear on the screen and we know from DKR that you press the gas when the "get Ready" is almost completely invisible. You do so and Kazooie yells out "BREEEE!" and you're off in a whirl of red feathers. Banjo gives out his trademark "Duh-huh!" as the speed boost dies down and you regain control of Kazooie. You're moving down a straight away now and Kazooie is gliding, occasionally flapping her arms. In front of you, you see a fence and you need to nose up before you hit the wall. Nosing up, you bring Kazooie's head and shoulders up to air brake but you don’t MOVE up. You need to climb, so you tap your gas button and Kazooie thrusts her wings up and down once. A glittering red feather falls from her butt. But this is only an animation since you don’t actually grab red feathers in the game to continue you’re climbing. The animation of the red feather falling is only there to make reference to other B~K games. A moment of "Oh I remember that!" like all great Nintendo games that are heavily basted in memorabilia and to evoke a sense of tradition over time.
As you climb upwards you see the feathers fall and you have cleared the fence with ease. Kazooie maintains her speed and height and glides effortlessly, allowing the player to focus on firing eggs from Kazooie's mouth at any racers that may have gotten ahead of them. A simple targeting 'scope' or reticule is used to show you the path that the fired egg will take. As you take a mild turn, tapping your air or holding down your brakes to turn even more in either direction, you reach another wall; but this time there is a cave directly beneath the wall. You nose down and hold the gas button down causing Kazooie to bring her wings in. She is now a missile and falls straight down - But before you hit the bottom of the cave, you let go of the gas button and nose up, making Kazooie's wings stretch out and giving you a parachute to slow yourself down to a controllable speed.
A racer is directly behind you, and you have egg ammo to spare. Once you clear the cave you double tap the air brakes while nosing up. Kazooie lets out a gagging "Kaw!" from the jolt and thrusts her wings downward shooting her straight up and then retracts them for a split second to fall backwards. Now you are behind the racer who was behind you and you have performed a loop. You quickly take aim by holding down the fire button (let's say, in the case of this game being on the GBA, firing weapons will be done by using the select button), which allows you to home in on your target, and release. Successfully shooting down the other racer briefly, but enough to get you more distance between you and the other racer.
As you can see the idea works fine, in theory. And it would have worked in Banjo Pilot except for the memory issues. All those extra animations and sound effects would have bogged down the memory so the idea of a much more simple plane was used that can be color swapped for each racing character.
That sounds good and everything when you completely disregard how Kazooie flies, but in reality it would not work unless they drastically changed her speed and flight capabilities.
Quote:There is absolutely no point in continuing this debate unless you can provide some kind of concrete angle on it. All of the points that you made were contradictory and had no purpose, in fact, even without knowing your character as a person who likes to argue over anything, I would have to say that by your posts in this thread alone I would have believed you to be that way. You said time and again that being presented with a completely new idea doesn't bother you. You said that a character of extreme limitations would still be a good candidate for controlled flight in a racing genre. You said that if the new idea is presented to you logically, you will completely accept it (Prime space jump) and basically... you agreed with everything I said, and yet you still want to argue. I do not understand at all.
I'm sorry lazy but your whole argument is flawed, you use examples to back up your points which don't even address the points that I've made. You have not listened to anything I have said, instead deciding to draw parallels from other games which are in no way similar to Kazooie's flight capabilities. You do not understand the difference between inherent abilities and power-ups. Kazooie's flight is an inherent ability, while Samus' space jump and Mario's raccoon suits are all power-ups. If you were to take Samus out of her suit and give her the power of flight, it would seem ridiculous and contradictory to what has already been established. Altering or taking away power-ups are in no way contradictory to the characters, and if you cannot understand this very simple concept then indeed, there is no point in continuing this debate with you.