28th April 2004, 2:49 PM
Quote:Okay, so you're saying that it's extremely important to stay within certain boundaries to help the game player have a familiar relationship with the character. Just as you said, we are comfortable that Mario can’t go in lava, but that Shadowman does it all the time with his mystic tattoos. We fully comprehend that Mythril is unbreakable and that fairies live for thousands of years and only die if they're never loved or that a Ring can destroy the world. We accept these things because they are presented to us. Link looks like Leonardo Dicaprio and fights a huge demon/Balrog Ganon in the ruins of Ganon's tower... or he's a small ninja-midget that fights along side Tetra (who is related to Zelda) under a waterfall (which is underwater) on top of Hyrule Castle where Link shoves the Master Sword in to Ganondorf's head and he then becomes a statue and.... oh wait then he's on an imaginary island where he fights a Nightmare in the Windfish's egg oh but now he's in an underground lair of lava people... you get my point. Realistic universe... stylized artistic universe... one with pirate music everywhere. Totally inconsistent, even alienating Zelda fans, but it is now accepted because that is what we are presented with.No, you misunderstood me. You can make whatever crazy situation or story your imagination can come up with, but once you've established certain rules and boundaries you have to stick with them. Mario being hurt by lava and Shadowman not being hurt by lava is in no way contradictory since they are different characters existing in different fantasy worlds. And there's nothing inconsistent with Wind Waker. None of the previous games had a realistic look to them, and all of the stories are fantastical. But Link is always basically the same person. He still gets hurt the same way, he still has to gain power-ups to perform remarkable feats, etc. Nothing at all contradictory with any of that.
Quote:Video games are based on the principal, as you said, to present rules and guidelines and then take you on a journey of learning how to bend and break those guide lines.Yes, that is what I have been saying. No matter how fantastical the world may be, if you set rules and guidelines within that universe it can seem perfectly natural and realistic.
If you fall you die.
But you can turn back time.
This chasm is way too large for you to jump.
So learn how to fly.
It's a very traditional principal in video games especially because it makes the game player feel like he's apart of something even more real then his imagination first thought it was since he is now applying real world knowledge and game rules and guide lines to venture forward.
Do you agree with me so far?
Quote:Mario, before the analogue stick, had a 'Run' button which you can press to go faster, its how we flew in Mario 3. In Mario 64 there was no need for a run button because of the analogue stick which would let the player control the speed in many different variations based on preference.That does not change the character or contradict anything in the Mario universe. It only changes how you the player controls things.
Quote:You could fly here too, in 3-D. But instead of gaining speed to fly, you simply jumped 3 times.That is because you used a different flying power-up which acted very different from the previous ones. Again, nothing contradictory there.
Quote:In the first B~K the ability of flight had to be found and earned by collecting Red feathers. In Banjo~Tooie you begin the game with the ability to fly and even let Kazooie fly on her own without holding Banjo.Banjo-Tooie happens right after Banjo-Kazooie so you have all of the moves that the characters acquired in the first game. Nothing contradictory there.
Quote:When she did this, she was much faster and agile, you didn't even need red feathers to fly if was just Kazooie. You could even swim like a torpedo and run super fast, even jump higher than Banjo. All of these new and interesting moves... that completely changed the entire concept of Banjo~Kazooie.It changed what you could do, but was in no way contradictory to what had been established in the previous game, and made perfect sense. Of course Kazooie would be faster without having to carry Banjo. That absolutely makes sense. In B-K you only controlled them as one being, so it's natural to assume that by themselves they could do different things.
Quote:Kazooie had evolved in to something else, as did Banjo who gained a new list of moves on top of the ones he already had. Let's say a Banjo~Threeie was still coming out for Gamecube. Can you imagine what new abilities the bear and bird would have? It would evolve again, breaking old boundaries and creating new ones, forming new gameplay mechanics. Perhaps you would see a Mecha B~K that Grunty made to combat you, a robot Banjo with a jet-powered Kazooie.Yes, and you would see in the game how it would make sense, as they would learn new moves. Again, nothing contradictory.
Quote:In DKR, the vehicles, specifically the planes in DKR were not fast at all. In fact, all 'kart' racing games are pretty slow since they delegate so much of the gameplay to strategic turns and weapon use. If in Banjo Pilot, Banjo would be riding on Kazooie you would simply accept it as something new and interesting and borrowed. Kazooie could gain boosts and use different eggs as missiles, she could even hypothetically ground herself and run while carrying Banjo still maintaining her top speed and in fact, be comparatively exact to a character using a plane perhaps even more so; She could perform all the same moves, etc. And you would have no issue with Banjo riding Kazooie.If you were to put a DKR track into B-K or B-T, it would take you much longer to race around each track than it would with any vehicle in DKR. Now like I've been saying this entire time, you could explain that Kazooie got a super feather or whatever which not only made her very fast but also fly like a plane, but what would be the point?
Quote:Just as you don’t have an issue with Shadowman not being able to use a shotgun in Deadside or use the Flambeau in live side, or Samus gets a space jump that only allows two consecutive jumps. It may be hard to accept at first but it will quickly integrate itself in to the game you are playing. As there isn't a single point in Metroid Prime where a real space jump would be advantageous over double jumping.How are those things difficult to accept? They are presented to us matter-of-factly in the games and they make sense in their respective universes. That has nothing to do with the debate at hand.
Quote: You have no problem with playing Mario Sunshine and see that Mario can no longer fly when he did so in 3 consecutive games.Again, you have completely missed the point of this entire debate. There are no flying power-ups in Mario Sunshine, so there is absolutely nothing contradictory about Mario not being able to fly in that game. The power-ups are not a part of the characters, they are merely items which enable the characters to do amazing things. Each game has different power-ups so it is not unusual at all.
Quote:In fact, if Banjo Pilot came out and all the characters were riding Jinjos you might say it's gay, but it wouldn't effect the gameplay at all since the Jinjos would move and react exactly as the planes do in DKR; Same speed, same attributes, they just look like Jinjos.Actually I think that would work just fine, since the jinjos showed that they could fly like planes in the Banjo series.
Quote:So ultimately, my point is very simple. The ideal of planes was fine for a game that has Diddy and Conker and Banjo in the same game. But a game based solely on ONE universe should borrow heavily from that universe in its conceptualized design. So in fact, by having Banjo race using Kazooie against Grunty who uses her broom and Mumbo Jumbo who flies on an Aztec statue of a bat and Humba Wumba riding a War Painted Eagle while Klungo rides a flying machine - all of them the same speed and same attributes as each other, except for the obvious counter measures, smaller character means lower top speed but better turning, larger character means high top speed but harder to turn, and all that jazz would be a better design that simply using planes which have nothing to do at all with any part of the B~K universe at all. Even if Banjo rode on the Washing Machine, it would add to the already compelling fantasy and humor of the game that is based on the variables and imagination presented in cartoons and would be more welcomed to the design of the game more so than a plane, as it was something actually presented as a joke in the first game.Using more imaginative vehicles than planes would be welcome, but using Kazooie as a plane would still be wrong unless they made up an excuse for her massive change of character and limitations.
I anxiously await your reply.