News From the Goron Front

[A Black Falcon]

It's called the Epic of Gilgamesh my friend. Read about it. The Hebrews adapted that as well as many other things during the Babylonian Exile.

It's all fables and stories passed down from generations and cultures.

I've read it, actually... :) Well, part of it.

In all seriousness, my opinion of religion is very similar to illusion's. Some people take it WAY too seriously or treat its documents and teachings as undisputible fact. Religion isn't bad. It's a wonderful part of human history and culture, and if religion helps you find your path or meaning in life, then go for it! However, I'm not sure if it really is possible to believe in a religion and at the same time think its teachings are mere folklore. That's probably why I don't follow or believe in any religions...

Yeah, it could be a problem... I also can't see how one folklore is any more "right" than any others. Christianity is just dominant, not intrinsically more "right" than the previous polytheistic beliefs... same for their religious texts, I think. Mixtures of truth and fiction, as with all legends and stories meant to inflate the greatness of their subjects...

As for the flood , You can say because the babylonians wrote it down and engraved the epic of gilgamesh and its the oldest written documents of the event, But you come to that conclusion by looking at this and that and say this happend this way and not that. But no one alive today was alive then,If you have faith in the bible you will believe that the flood happend and the event was passed down generation after generation from Noahs decendants who would later found civilizations like sumeria and babylon and of course overtime the story was changed as it passed from person to person oraly, it make sense since the first people to event writing were sumeria and Babylon they would be the first to write it down.But what is interesting is that the meso american Mayans and asians have the same stories on the other side of the world.I believe that god caused the event and the hebrew acount is the true one but thats a matter of faith, I cant physically prove it but thats why they call it faith.

Look, I'll begin to listen to you when you show that nearly every culture has a flood myth. But the Biblical one, as they said, is the Babylonian one, really. That one just got spread all around that region. Two flood stories does not a truth make. :)

Mayan flood story? I don't know anything about it so I can't comment.

Faith or blind...well, in your personal case, ignorance? Here it is, 2004. We have people in space, plans to go to Mars, six billion people, the internet...science and technology advancing so fast, and people STILL praise invisible gods, fear invisible demons! If any of you Christians---ANY one of you, had been raised in a non-christian family, you'd be so different. How can you not see that it's all in how one is raised to determines one's religion. If you were born in Iraq, you'd be saying the same truths about Allah, and denouncing everyone else; if you were born in--well, the rest of it goes without saying. It's ridiculous, and I've had enough of it. It's time for action.

I've wondered about this before, and I've written some lengthy posts about the subject before... I don't want (or have the time) to do that again now, however.

But I think that for prehistoric man "gods" were easily their best explanation for the question "Why?". Somehow that got burned into our culture and we can't let it go...

Oh, and the Communists tried to destroy religion. It didn't work. The problem of course was that the people already believed so they would not be shaken... you'd have to have people grow up with no religion at all around, with no concept of "gods" except as quaint historical myths of previous cultures (if that), for it to have any chance at all of working.

'Action' won't go anywhere, in short.

As for Darunia... yes, I realize that probably the main reason I'm a Christian is because I was raised that way and if I had been raised as an atheist I'd probably still be one. Could the same be said about you? If you had been raised in a Christian family (and for all I know, you could've been), don't you think you'd probably be a Christian too? I may've been born into a Christian family, but it was my own choice to stay a Christian this late in life, and I'd say I'm living a fairly good life because of it. I don't denounce anybody for having different religious views (including atheism) because everyone has their own reasons for the beliefs that they follow.

My parents... hmm, I don't know, actually. They might believe that there's some kind of spiritual force or something, I don't know... and I did grow up going to church, but it was Unitarian Universalism, if anyone here knows what that means. Just about the most liberal serious religious denomination around...

Oh, but it's not quite "believe anything you want". The Principles and Purposes (which I don't know, to be honest... you don't have to memorize them...) provide limitations... not saying what you must believe, but things like how being bad isn't good...

Ah Darunia. I just want to mention that while it is true that Christianity is sort of the default religion in the US and a lot of Western countries, we can all agree that it is not places like Africa or Asia, right? But that is in fact where Christianity is spreading like crazy. I mentioned this before, but the largest church in the world for many years was in South Korea. I wasn't sure on how large exactly, but I just read that Yoida Full Gospel Church in Seoul had 750,000 in 1994.Now the largest churches now are in Africa. I've heard as much as millions of people coming to meetings. It's hard to know the exact numbers because they don't exactly do things the same as here. I don't think anyone can (or possibly could) keep track of how many people come, but it is a heapload. God is doing amazing things in these places.

Since 2000, 2/3 of Christians live outside of North America and Western Europe. It is estimated that 200 million Christians are currently being persecuted for their faith, which is obviously not happening here in the US. I found the specific details of that here, but I have heard this many times over from so many people. I just didn't remember specific numbers. So I think that effectively disproves your stance that people only believe in Jesus because they were raised that way. You can believe what you want, but now you need to find something new to complain about.

You're partially right (and others who said it wasn't just learned from parents). It's not just that, obviously. Who knows why, maybe because of how long we believed that it MUST BE (for lack of any alternative), or because we wish there WAS something greater than ourselves guiding the universe, religion does have a tendency to stick around and grow and make people believers...

Why do people change from one religion to another? Who knows. The faith of believers turns them? They like how it differs from their current one? Their new religion is more popular now (this is a MAJOR factor, especially in the past -- witness how many nations convert (to whatever religion is gaining) so quickly after their kings did...)

Obviously, in my eyes the whole idea of "converting the unbelievers" is incredibly stupid. Unless they're worshipping death gods or something evil like that... but no one does that anymore, so we're pretty safe. ... well not really, since as long as there are different religions there will surely be conflict between them, but safer than we used to be...

The problem, of course, is as you say (or imply): My Religion Is Better Than Yours. Oh, you come up with "reasons", but overall, most any major modern religion must have some benefits to have lasted in relevance in modern times! But don't bother to reply to that, I'm sure that people like you would never see my point. What, do you also believe that anyone who dies not a Christian will burn in hell forever?

Darunia...you're far too concerned with what you see that you cannot allow yourself to accept something you can't see or prove. There are still many things science has yet to explain, yet are certainly real. For example, Spontaneous Human Combustion, it baffles scientists worldwide why it happens. They have theories of course, but no one can say for certain why it happens. But it happens.

I don't need an explanation to believe what I believe. The thought that when I die I simply cease to be is a very depressing prospect. Even if that might be the case when my time is up (which I don't believe it is), it's more comforting to think that there is eternal heaven waiting for me. Life would seem awfully futile and pointless if there is nothing to look forward to when it's over. People seek religion for comfort, for guidance, even for a reason to live. Whether or not we have physical proof is irrelevant, because we don't need it.

Long story short: I don't need a speck of evidence to believe what I believe, and all the arguments in the world won't change my mind. That may sound foolish to you, but hey, to each his own.

Ah, now we reach the heart of why people believe. The alternative is both scary and depressing. That, I think, is one of the main reasons... that and that impulse most people seem to have that says that they want there to me something greater than themselves out there, that they don't want to handle it all alone (oh sure it's often stated as 'it couldn't have happened this way all alone', but I'd say that that's what it really is...)... now, am I insulting people for following those lines of thought? Given how universal religion is in all human cultures, not really. By this point in history it's obviously normal, and as I've said in length before, very hard to do anything about despite the fact that so much has been debunked because of the fact that, at the center of most all religions, is the part that says 'you must take things on faith'...

Obi, I didn't take any offense to anything you said. Don't worry about it. About Morocco: It's really not a big deal to be American there. Especially in Agadir, where I will be going, which is a huge tourist spot and very modern. Morocco as a whole is one of the most Western of Muslim countries, and in fact the previous king became a Christian and for a time allowed the people to have Bibles. But there was such a backlash from the other leaders of Muslim countries that he unfortunately backed down, and it is once again illegal to posess a Bible. That is the case in every Muslim county I have heard of, which intrigues me, since a lot of the research I've done lately says that Muslims accept the Bible as a word from God. But anyway, we are not going in on our own just for kicks- this is a very well planned and organized thing. We'll be working with residents and doing a lot of practical work, like helping to teach English in Universities. It's not as extreme as Iraq or Thailand, where some other groups from my church are going this summer.

... So do the Gideons have to put Korans in the hotels?

Seriously, I can't remember if there were bibles in the hotels in Europe... last summer was too long ago to remember details like that... :D

But I don't think I've been in a hotel in the US without one. Wait, maybe once... but not much.

LL: How about my posts? That long one (with quotes) in particular...