16th April 2004, 10:25 PM
Obi, I did not mean to say that only Christians are persecuted, but in truth I had not heard of others who have been either. It certainly makes sense that anyone with spiritual beliefs would be in China, but I had not heard about that before now.
I know that you can always find something to back up what you what to believe, and that is why I tried to make it clear that I don't know all the facts, and have found people and websites debating back and forth and each saying the other is wrong. But I have heard from people who know a lot more than I and who I trust to give me the truth. I am going to Morocoo this summer and we've had some discussions about this, but I will keep searching on my own and looking for the truth about this. Do you have any suggestions on where to start?
Lazy, I didn't mean to say that Jews hunted Christians on a large scale. They were the ones who persecuted anyone who followed Jesus in the first century, because they believed that the Messiah was supposed to set them free from being subject to Rome and that he would lead them to victory over the entire world. They didn't understand that Jesus did come to set them free, but not from a political rule. Instead he set them free from sin so they could have a life worth living. They also considered him a threat since he rebuked the religious leaders for being hypocrites, but by 70 AD Roman soldiers had conquered and destroyed Jerusalem completely, essentially ending the Jewish nation until this century.
Also, it is not true that the Bible teaches to hate Rome. After Jesus was killed, many of the Jews who believed in him thought that only Jews could come to God, and they refused to talk to the Gentiles, which is a fancy way of saying anyone who isn't a Jew. But through a series of events God showed them that his message was for everyone. And many of these early apostles spent their entire lives reaching the Greeks and the Romans and everyone they could possibly get to. The most well known of these was Paul, and he travled all over the Mediteranean all the way to Spain. The book of Romans is one of the most fundamental and important books in the Bible in that it goes through the entire process of why humanity needed Jesus, how we can be saved, and how to live after we decide to give our lives to God. And this letter was written by Paul to early Christians in Rome, so he certainly wasn't hating them. The Jews as a whole, on the other hand, never did accept Jesus as who he said he was. He was not a Savior to them, but a blasphemer and liar. And to this day Jews are waiting for the promised Savior to come.
I'm confused that say Rome was in power for 15 thousand years. Did you mean 15 hundred years? The historical records are archeological evidence say that Rome was founded around 750 BC and collapsed around 476 AD, which is a little more than 1200 years.
I also disagree with you when you say that the New Testament was re-written to change the story. I know you have mentioned this before, and I have also heard other people suggest this same idea. As you probably know, I believe that the Bible is the word of God and is completely true and unchanged, so that's why I am quick to jump at this one and disagree. :)
However, it is not just on faith that I accept the Bible to be completely true. There have been times where I have wondered how to know if it is really true. It has been 2-6 thousand years since these were written, depending on what part of the Bible you talk about, and it could have been changed. So much of what I believe, well all of it in fact, is based on what the Bible says. So why do I believe it is true aside from just faith?
Well first of, it does depend on what you consider change. Obviously the language has been changed, because I can't read Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic. And it is reasonable to assume that as someone was copying the Bible by hand, there could have been mistakes, or a misunderstanding of the actual translation, or maybe they just had bad handwriting. Over time these mistakes would compound and the original message could be changed.
However, as the Bible is the most popular book ever, there has been a lot of research to find if it is true. We have many copies of the original text, and they match up extremely well. There are some discrepancies, but very minor, as in a word changed slightly to a different meaning. Also, the Jews had a practice of burning or burying a manuscript that had become very old, so there were only a few surviving manuscripts by the 10th century.
Then just over 50 years ago they discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls, an ancient manuscript that contained sections of every book of the Old Testament except Esther. Scientists believe the Dead Sea Scrools are the oldest remaing copies of the scriptures, as much as 1000 years older than the previous oldest existing copies. The amazing thing is that it was word for word perfect in over 95%, and the differences that did exist were minor changes and mistakes that did not change the meaning of the text.
As for the New Testament, there are over 5000 copies of it dated from within the first and second century AD, and many of them have been found in other languages and other places aside from Greek and Aramaic. They all agree almost exactly, with some small differences in certain, minor things.
For example, that Greek has several different words for "love" that all mean slightly different things.
Eros: A physical love, like between husband and wife.
Stergo: A love between famimly members, like between parents and children.
Philo: Love between friends, not in a sexual way.
Agape: Unconditional love, this is always how the love of God for us is written
Now when translating this to English, we only have one word for love. So they write love, and in a foot note will mention what kind of love this refers to. You could argue that the English translation is now not 100% accurate, but it is to the best of their ability and the meaning has really not changed. Some people believe that the King James Version is the only true translation, but I can guarantee you that Jesus never said "Thou". It was just the language of the time. We now have many different translations in English. There is New American Standard, New Living Translation, New International Version, and on and on. They all have some differences. Like the NAS is a little older and sounds a little more stiff than modern English. The NIV is very close to what we use today, and a version called The Message is very conversational and uses a lot of slang. But they are all translated by many, many scholars who study all of the oldest available manuscripts and provide the most accurate translation possible. I have good friend of my parents who knows Greek, and has studied the New Testament in it's original language. It's not uncommon for a pastor to know some Greek, becuase it is a common subject in bible schools.
There is no evidence to suggest that the Bible has been changed over time. There is more collaborating evidence for the Bible than any other book or manuscript. Don't you think that if there really was evidence that the Bible was changed it would be very well known? Scientists and scholars are always trying to destroy the Bible, but they have not found anything to back their beliefs. In fact, some of the people who first intended to disprove the Bible have instead found the evidence to be so overwhelmingly in favor of the Bible that they have become Christians.
One last thing about this: One thing I was often taught in college math classes was to perform a sanity check on your answer. Basically, it just means to see if the answer makes sense at all. So I propose this: If the Bible was change, why would the hero die? Why would he reject all the things we enjoy in life. If someone was trying to corrupt it, why would they instead make something that is completely against all human reasoning? How can one man dying save all of mankind? Why would they change it to say that you should love your enemy instead of getting the justice you deserve? Why would they tell you it was impossible to do it on your own, and doing good isn't enough? Is there any other religion that teaches that? Why would they say that Jesus is the only way instead of the idea that he is one of many prophets that many other religions say? Wouldn't they clean up the problems that the other famous Biblical leaders had? Like David's adultery? Like the continual rebellion and disobedience of the Jews away from God. If you are trying to make God look better, wouldn't you make his chosen people win all the battles in the end and live happily ever after? The truth the Bible teaches is completely opposite of human nature and goes against everything people want to believe, which is why it is so vehemently opposed.
This is just a small defense of the validity of the Bible. If you really want the truth, my arguments won't convince you. There are people who have devoted their entire lives to studying this, and there have been many books written about it. Read something like <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785243631/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/102-0695780-3900154?v=glance&s=books&vi=customer-reviews>this</a> or <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310209307/102-0695780-3900154?v=glance">this</a>.
Lazy, I consider you my friend and I look up to you in so many ways. You are the funniest person I know, and I am amazed at your discipline to do such hard school work so quickly and so well. I know first hand how difficult school really is, and you are an inspiration to me to keep pushing on and to chase my dreams. You are also a very intelligent person. Many of my engineering friends foolishly think that you have to be a math expert or programmer or physicist to be intelligent, but I think that people can be smart and talented in many ways besides engineering. Please don't take any of this as a personal attack against you. I don't want to lose you as a friend.
I don't intend to push this on anybody. I do think a lot of what you said is not true, but there is a lot I once believed that I now know is also not true. I remember hearing a story of NASA scientists who were trying to calculate the age of the earth based on all sorts of stuff, and supposedly there was some discrepancy that messed their calcualtions up, like there was an extra half a day that they couldn't account for. One of the scientist pointed out the account in the Bible of God making the sun stand still during a battle to helpot the Israelites win, and when they put this information in everything worked perfectly. I had heard this story many times, but when I began to research it to find the specifics I found the entire thing is made up. Not only that, but it has existed in one form or another for hundreds of year, with the scientists using an abacus or who knows what to prove the Bible is real. This is just one example of the some of the lies I've come across where people have thought they needed to make something up to prove the Bible is true. But the truth always comes out, and these people make everyone who believes in God look a fool.
I know that we could all sit here and discuss evidence until we die of old age and nobody could change their mind about anything. That is why I hate debates, because usually we get too caught up in winning than searching. Pride is a powerful thing. If nothing else this talk has convinced me I need to do a lot more research in this, because I would like to give you concrete answers but I just don't have the specific numbers a lot fof the time,a nd that does little to convince you of anything. I've spent a lot of time here just trying to learn more about people who don't believe the same things I do. I thank you guys for being honest and hope we can always all be open minded about all this stuff. I'm not very good at communicating and making a clear concise point, which is why I tend to ramble on for pages and pages... But thanks for putting up with me anyway.
I know that you can always find something to back up what you what to believe, and that is why I tried to make it clear that I don't know all the facts, and have found people and websites debating back and forth and each saying the other is wrong. But I have heard from people who know a lot more than I and who I trust to give me the truth. I am going to Morocoo this summer and we've had some discussions about this, but I will keep searching on my own and looking for the truth about this. Do you have any suggestions on where to start?
Lazy, I didn't mean to say that Jews hunted Christians on a large scale. They were the ones who persecuted anyone who followed Jesus in the first century, because they believed that the Messiah was supposed to set them free from being subject to Rome and that he would lead them to victory over the entire world. They didn't understand that Jesus did come to set them free, but not from a political rule. Instead he set them free from sin so they could have a life worth living. They also considered him a threat since he rebuked the religious leaders for being hypocrites, but by 70 AD Roman soldiers had conquered and destroyed Jerusalem completely, essentially ending the Jewish nation until this century.
Also, it is not true that the Bible teaches to hate Rome. After Jesus was killed, many of the Jews who believed in him thought that only Jews could come to God, and they refused to talk to the Gentiles, which is a fancy way of saying anyone who isn't a Jew. But through a series of events God showed them that his message was for everyone. And many of these early apostles spent their entire lives reaching the Greeks and the Romans and everyone they could possibly get to. The most well known of these was Paul, and he travled all over the Mediteranean all the way to Spain. The book of Romans is one of the most fundamental and important books in the Bible in that it goes through the entire process of why humanity needed Jesus, how we can be saved, and how to live after we decide to give our lives to God. And this letter was written by Paul to early Christians in Rome, so he certainly wasn't hating them. The Jews as a whole, on the other hand, never did accept Jesus as who he said he was. He was not a Savior to them, but a blasphemer and liar. And to this day Jews are waiting for the promised Savior to come.
I'm confused that say Rome was in power for 15 thousand years. Did you mean 15 hundred years? The historical records are archeological evidence say that Rome was founded around 750 BC and collapsed around 476 AD, which is a little more than 1200 years.
I also disagree with you when you say that the New Testament was re-written to change the story. I know you have mentioned this before, and I have also heard other people suggest this same idea. As you probably know, I believe that the Bible is the word of God and is completely true and unchanged, so that's why I am quick to jump at this one and disagree. :)
However, it is not just on faith that I accept the Bible to be completely true. There have been times where I have wondered how to know if it is really true. It has been 2-6 thousand years since these were written, depending on what part of the Bible you talk about, and it could have been changed. So much of what I believe, well all of it in fact, is based on what the Bible says. So why do I believe it is true aside from just faith?
Well first of, it does depend on what you consider change. Obviously the language has been changed, because I can't read Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic. And it is reasonable to assume that as someone was copying the Bible by hand, there could have been mistakes, or a misunderstanding of the actual translation, or maybe they just had bad handwriting. Over time these mistakes would compound and the original message could be changed.
However, as the Bible is the most popular book ever, there has been a lot of research to find if it is true. We have many copies of the original text, and they match up extremely well. There are some discrepancies, but very minor, as in a word changed slightly to a different meaning. Also, the Jews had a practice of burning or burying a manuscript that had become very old, so there were only a few surviving manuscripts by the 10th century.
Then just over 50 years ago they discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls, an ancient manuscript that contained sections of every book of the Old Testament except Esther. Scientists believe the Dead Sea Scrools are the oldest remaing copies of the scriptures, as much as 1000 years older than the previous oldest existing copies. The amazing thing is that it was word for word perfect in over 95%, and the differences that did exist were minor changes and mistakes that did not change the meaning of the text.
As for the New Testament, there are over 5000 copies of it dated from within the first and second century AD, and many of them have been found in other languages and other places aside from Greek and Aramaic. They all agree almost exactly, with some small differences in certain, minor things.
For example, that Greek has several different words for "love" that all mean slightly different things.
Eros: A physical love, like between husband and wife.
Stergo: A love between famimly members, like between parents and children.
Philo: Love between friends, not in a sexual way.
Agape: Unconditional love, this is always how the love of God for us is written
Now when translating this to English, we only have one word for love. So they write love, and in a foot note will mention what kind of love this refers to. You could argue that the English translation is now not 100% accurate, but it is to the best of their ability and the meaning has really not changed. Some people believe that the King James Version is the only true translation, but I can guarantee you that Jesus never said "Thou". It was just the language of the time. We now have many different translations in English. There is New American Standard, New Living Translation, New International Version, and on and on. They all have some differences. Like the NAS is a little older and sounds a little more stiff than modern English. The NIV is very close to what we use today, and a version called The Message is very conversational and uses a lot of slang. But they are all translated by many, many scholars who study all of the oldest available manuscripts and provide the most accurate translation possible. I have good friend of my parents who knows Greek, and has studied the New Testament in it's original language. It's not uncommon for a pastor to know some Greek, becuase it is a common subject in bible schools.
There is no evidence to suggest that the Bible has been changed over time. There is more collaborating evidence for the Bible than any other book or manuscript. Don't you think that if there really was evidence that the Bible was changed it would be very well known? Scientists and scholars are always trying to destroy the Bible, but they have not found anything to back their beliefs. In fact, some of the people who first intended to disprove the Bible have instead found the evidence to be so overwhelmingly in favor of the Bible that they have become Christians.
One last thing about this: One thing I was often taught in college math classes was to perform a sanity check on your answer. Basically, it just means to see if the answer makes sense at all. So I propose this: If the Bible was change, why would the hero die? Why would he reject all the things we enjoy in life. If someone was trying to corrupt it, why would they instead make something that is completely against all human reasoning? How can one man dying save all of mankind? Why would they change it to say that you should love your enemy instead of getting the justice you deserve? Why would they tell you it was impossible to do it on your own, and doing good isn't enough? Is there any other religion that teaches that? Why would they say that Jesus is the only way instead of the idea that he is one of many prophets that many other religions say? Wouldn't they clean up the problems that the other famous Biblical leaders had? Like David's adultery? Like the continual rebellion and disobedience of the Jews away from God. If you are trying to make God look better, wouldn't you make his chosen people win all the battles in the end and live happily ever after? The truth the Bible teaches is completely opposite of human nature and goes against everything people want to believe, which is why it is so vehemently opposed.
This is just a small defense of the validity of the Bible. If you really want the truth, my arguments won't convince you. There are people who have devoted their entire lives to studying this, and there have been many books written about it. Read something like <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785243631/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/102-0695780-3900154?v=glance&s=books&vi=customer-reviews>this</a> or <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310209307/102-0695780-3900154?v=glance">this</a>.
Lazy, I consider you my friend and I look up to you in so many ways. You are the funniest person I know, and I am amazed at your discipline to do such hard school work so quickly and so well. I know first hand how difficult school really is, and you are an inspiration to me to keep pushing on and to chase my dreams. You are also a very intelligent person. Many of my engineering friends foolishly think that you have to be a math expert or programmer or physicist to be intelligent, but I think that people can be smart and talented in many ways besides engineering. Please don't take any of this as a personal attack against you. I don't want to lose you as a friend.
I don't intend to push this on anybody. I do think a lot of what you said is not true, but there is a lot I once believed that I now know is also not true. I remember hearing a story of NASA scientists who were trying to calculate the age of the earth based on all sorts of stuff, and supposedly there was some discrepancy that messed their calcualtions up, like there was an extra half a day that they couldn't account for. One of the scientist pointed out the account in the Bible of God making the sun stand still during a battle to helpot the Israelites win, and when they put this information in everything worked perfectly. I had heard this story many times, but when I began to research it to find the specifics I found the entire thing is made up. Not only that, but it has existed in one form or another for hundreds of year, with the scientists using an abacus or who knows what to prove the Bible is real. This is just one example of the some of the lies I've come across where people have thought they needed to make something up to prove the Bible is true. But the truth always comes out, and these people make everyone who believes in God look a fool.
I know that we could all sit here and discuss evidence until we die of old age and nobody could change their mind about anything. That is why I hate debates, because usually we get too caught up in winning than searching. Pride is a powerful thing. If nothing else this talk has convinced me I need to do a lot more research in this, because I would like to give you concrete answers but I just don't have the specific numbers a lot fof the time,a nd that does little to convince you of anything. I've spent a lot of time here just trying to learn more about people who don't believe the same things I do. I thank you guys for being honest and hope we can always all be open minded about all this stuff. I'm not very good at communicating and making a clear concise point, which is why I tend to ramble on for pages and pages... But thanks for putting up with me anyway.