31st July 2003, 11:01 AM
Quote:When you put it that way, I agree. Mario Kart is to Mario Golf as Gran Turismo is to Links.
What I was really doing in these last few posts was picking on OB1's word choices, not on his opinions... and man, did it annoy him...
I SAID that Wipeout is different from Mario Kart! I said that in one of my last few posts! When exactly have I said Mario Kart is the same as Wipeout? I didn't.
Oh, and that may be your point, and I don't disagree much with that... what I am disagreeing with is OB1's other points... which he has mostly rescinded so we don't have much left to argue.
Okay... how about we make this clearer.
Mario Golf is not to Tiger Woods as Mario Kart is to Gran Turismo. Mario Golf did nothing innovative (in fact it's pretty much just Hot Shots Golf with Mario--developed by the same people), while MK completely revolutionized the racing genre.
Quote:You've played both those games and can say that with a straight face? Impressive... because it makes no sense.
Wing Commander is a Space Flight Sim. A early, and more arcadey, space flight sim... but a space flight sim.
Now... for the very first Wing Commander I can see some reason why you could say that it takes themes from Gradius. But it changes them so dramatically in the implementation that I see no conclusion to draw other than that its a new genre. Because space flight sims have depth. Complex flight controls. Flight systems. Story depth. Mission variety. AND EVERYTHING ELSE!
Are you honestly saying that TIE Fighter and R-Type are in the same genre? Uhhhh.... *backs away slowly*
Exactly, they differ in implementation, just as drastically as Mario Kart does with Gran Turismo. Your inability to make these simple distinction is because of the fact that in your mind the only real difference that matters is perspective, which is so inane that words cannot describe it.
Quote:Oh, Elite. Of course I've heard of Elite. Haven't played it myself, but heard about it plenty. Privateer was sort of like it, with the open-ended galaxy exploration and trading... Why exactly would you think I haven't heard of Elite? And where do I say that Wing Commander was the first space flight sim?
Yeah, I don't. So why do you say that I did?
You said "But it didn't virtually create or totally change a genre like Super Mario Brothers or Wing Commander", which is complete bullshit as Mario Kart was a hundred times more innovative than Wing Commander. All Wing Commander introduced was a crappy story and better graphics than Elite. Your definition of "innovation" is laughable.
Quote:Yeah, I know now. But when you look at that comment from my perspective it really looked like you were, because I never thought that you'd consider those games in the same genre when it is so clear that they are not...
Different sub-genre, but enough of a difference to almost call it a new genre, which leads me to the next reply:
Quote:Fine, it created the kart racing genre. Happy now?
As for Contra and Doom... yes, I can see a connection there. It is much clearer, so I admit that that was a bad example.
Yes, Mario Kart is as much different from the racing games that came before it as something like the original 2D Wolfenstein (or Contra) is to Doom. MK changed the genre in many more ways than Doom did to shooters, but there was no drastic perspective change so people like you just shrug it off. And while Mario Kart did create its own sub-genre (a massive sub-genre), it had an influence on just about every single racing game that came after it, including Wipeout.
Quote:I would probably give them scores in the upper 7's. To me, they deserve that score. I know you disagree, but its just a matter of opinion and isn't something you can empirically claim you are right about for everyone.
Finally.
I didn't bring up the scores to show that you shouldn't like the games, I brought them up because you were trying to objectively state which racing games are good, even though you like so many critically-panned ones.
Quote:Try reading what I've written in this thread again, then thinking about it.
Now... that isn't what I meant. Or what I said.
You are taking two completely sepearate arguements I was making and combining them.
I understood exactly what you said, and you know it.
Quote:Racing games. Racing has some requirements for a game to be a racing game. You need to be going for some kind of finish line somehow, along some sort of track. Obviously. All I was saying there was that those are all racing games, because they all contain the fundamental things that make games racing games, even though in gameplay they are quite different (look back, I said something to that effect).
Again you show your hypocrisy by using a certain standard for racing games but then completely throwing them out the window when you compare shooters.
Quote:On the other hand, I do NOT put space flight sims in the same genre as scrolling ship shooters. They are in the same genre as FLIGHT SIMS, not scrolling shooters... sure, Wing Commander was a fairly arcadey space flight sim, but its still a space flight sim and not a scrolling shooter...
Oh, and is this a good time to mention that as with all these games I'm referring to Wing Commander the series in general, not the first game in specific?
So. If you think I'm so stupid, how about giving me your reasoning for your strange decision that space flight sims should be considered to be in the same genre as scrolling shooters. Is Elite in the same genre as Gradius too? I certainly would say NO WAY... same to TIE Fighter, Freespace 2, or any other space flight sim...
I will say one thing. There are some 3d spaceship-based games that ARE offshoots of the scrolling ship shooter. Some examples are Sinistar Unleashed, Bang! Gunship 2000, Star Wars Starfighter, the Star Fox series, and the Rogue Squadron games.
Also, I will admit that Wing Commander is one of the most arcadey of the space flight sim serieses, so you can make a better case for that one than for any of the others I can think of.
However... I, at least, do see enough differences that I would put the Wing Commander series as a space flight sim, child of the flight sim genre, and not a space-based action game, child of the 2d scrolling ship shooters.
I guess it just depends where you draw the line. You clearly draw a a loose line between these genres, and I draw a tighter one.
But I don't see how you can honestly say that Mario Kart is to Gran Turismo as Gradius is to Wing Commander. Because at least to my eyes there are far more differences between Gradius and Wing Commander than there are between the two racing games.
Sure, it is absolutely true that Mario Kart and Gran Turismo are dramatically different ideas of racing games. I've never denied, or even pretended to deny, that fact.
I'm just saying that I see even more dramatic differences between the other two games.
ALL shooters belong to the same genre. Contra, Gradius, Doom, and Wing Commander. They are all seperated by distinct sub-genres. WC isn't nearly enough "sim-like" to truley belong in the sim genre, and you know that.
Let me follow your rules by comparing Gradius to Wing Commander. All shooter share a few basic traits: shooting, flying, and dodging enemy fire. You stripped down racing games to similar basic qualities, and now I'm doing the same thing for space shooters. If Wing Commander didn't have that very simple perspective change and was played from a top-down angle like Gradius (with all of that shield management, etc. retained) would you still call it drastically different from the likes of Gradius? No, you wouldn't. So the only major difference you can find is a paper-thin perspective difference.
Quote:You guys get into the longest argument over the most trivial things.
All I know is, I can't wait for Mario Kart, and if so many others are drooling over it, it must have something that sets it apart. Maybe it's the tracks, maybe it's the weapons, the carts, the characters, or maybe it's just the Nintendo Difference .
That's all I need to know.
You think I like doing this?? I don't, but I can't just let him get away with saying these ridiculous things.