FUCKERS!

[A Black Falcon]

Good God, so now a woman who gets an abortion is a "whore"? Why do you hate women so much?

My mom hasn't had an abortion, as far as I know. She's been involved in the women's rights movement since the '60s, though, so she most definitely remembers the days when it was illegal, and knew people then who got illegal abortions I'm sure... and so she would know how dangerous it was.

Much of our arguments aren't directed at you, Darunia, but rather at the anti-abortion crowd in general. We know you're not religious, but the average pro-lifer is. In my opinion, most pro-life people I've known were against abortion for the same reason as you, because it's horrible and disgusting and it involves taking the life of a potential human being. Some will often bring God into the argument, but for the most part, they oppose abortion because they care about the fetus's right to live.

Absolutely -- my post was not just to Darunia, but to abortion opponents in general. I thought that was pretty clear.

Also, maybe on the second part, but I think that in virtually all cases religion plays a very large role behind it. Just like with opposition to gay rights, religious groups are the central forces behind opposition to abortion. That is, Darunia is an exception to the rule I would say.

Let's put it this way: I don't think anyone who's pro-life is being consciously sexist (and again, I've known some very hardcore pro-life women).

Some women are opposed to women's rights, though... ever read much of Ann Coulter's stuff?

I do think the sexism is at least semi-conscious. A lot of it does come out of our sexist society, so it's not all freely chosen or something, but I wouldn't completely excuse people because of that... it's a partial explanation, but definitely not a full one.

Oh, as for the Congress stuff and on the issue of women being much more pro-choice than men, Darunia, I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that what I said is true, but it'll take a while to find sources. I will try to do that.

I will definitely agree with you about the abstinence-only movement. This movement is religiously driven and does not help the situation at all. Pregnancy prevention is by far the best answer to the abortion debate if people will get over the whole idea that cumming outside of a vagina is a sin. You can use all the scare tactics about pregnancy and STDs you want, but when two people are horny and attracted to one another, they're going to do it, and so condom and birth control awareness is the best way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, and by extension, an abortion.

Studies prove that abstinence-only education completely fails to do anything at all, while teaching birth control works and reduces pregnancy rates. Conservative/religious opposition is very much misplaced and sad, and their efforts to push abstinence have done nothing except raise the teenage birthrate in the US and surely give more people STDs than otherwise would have them.

I think you're right that nobody likes abortion, pro-lifers or pro-choicers (and in fact the pro-choice movement are doing things to raise awareness for safe sex behavior which would prevent the number of unwanted pregnancies, opposite from the pro-life abstinence-only approach which prevents jack shit), but it is indeed very sexist. It's evocative of the gendered idea that women are natural care-givers and mothers, baby-making machines and so on and so forth, and really nothing else. Wanting to do something as shocking as to not want to be a mother is a serious deviation from their natural and expected behaviour as women. Restricting their right to have an abortion is saying that women don't have the capacity to make proper decisions regarding their own bodies. It's just another form of subjugation.

Well said, I completely agree.