Quote:Weltall: You're banning religion? Kind of like China between 1949 and 1978? So you're a Communist now?

Darunia Wrote:I subscribe to a particular breed of atheism:

The deity to which I proclaim non-existence is the Christian deity. I'm talking about the omnipotent, omniscient fellow who created the world 10,000 years ago, and fashioned women from men's ribs... the deity who is at the same time three separate entities encapsulated in one (Holy Trinity)... the deity to which the Abrahamic religions refer... that one.

Now, Bahamut, I see what you're saying. How can I, a mere organism, different from an amoeba and a fish only in that I'm more evolved, ever KNOW whether or not there are super-beings? And obviously, I cannot. But then again, would they be god? What is god, really? An atheist denies the existence of 'god', but is there a meaning for god beyond the narrow-minded dogmatic philosophies of the west, who created their own version of a god a mere couple thousand millennia ago? Could there be a third-party deity, yet totally unbeknownst to any on earth, who did create us and then took no further part in our lives? We will never know.

I cannot ever know more than that which I see with my sense, and deduct with my mind. (Even then, we open ourselves up to a whole nasty series of what-ifs, a la the Matrix... the Brain-in-a-pot theory, but I won't go there.)

WHAT I CAN SIT HERE and say though, fundamentally, is COGITO ERGO SUM, and that the deity particular to Christian theology does NOT exist.


The ball is in your court, monsignor.

alien space marine Wrote:I think most folk who identify themselves as atheists today are "agnostic atheists", Atheism and agnosticism have become interchangeable words.

Darunia Wrote:So... only communists are atheists...?


A
Forrest J. Ackerman
Douglas Adams
Phillip Adams
Brandy Alexandre
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Tariq Ali
Woody Allen
Shulamit Aloni
Thomas J. Altizer
Natalie Angier
Lance Armstrong
Liv Arnesen
Madison Arnold
Isaac Asimov
Peter William Atkins
B
Kevin Bacon
Russell Baker
J.G. Ballard
Iain M. Banks
Clive Barker
Dan Barker
MC Paul Barman
Dave Barry
Richard Bartle
Bill Bass
Matt Bellamy
Steve Benson
Ingmar Bergman
Pierre Berton
Matt Besser
Paul Bettany
Björk
Susan Blackmore
Bill Blass
Jim Bohanan
Sir Herman Bondi
Pierre Boulez
T. Coraghessan Boyle
Nathaniel Branden
Marlon Brando
Richard Branson
Berkeley Breathed
Julia Hartley Brewer
Marcus Brigstocke
Isaac Brock
Rodney Brooks
Andrew Brown
Derren Brown
Peter Buck
Gabriel Byrne
John Byrne
C
Dean Cameron
James Cameron
Mike Carey
George Carlin
John Carmack
Adam Carolla
John Carpenter
Asia Carrera
Fidel Castro
Stephen Chapman
Dov Charney
Vic Chesnutt
Noam Chomsky
Mohammed Choukri
Robin Christopher
C cont.
Chumbawamba
Jeremy Clarkson
Alexander Cockburn
Billy Connolly
John Conway
Alex Cox
Wayne Coyne
Francis Crick
David Cronenberg
David Cross
Alan Cumming
Justin Currie
D
Ron Dakron
Rodney Dangerfield
Julia Darling
Russell T Davies
Mark Jonathan Davis
William B. Davis
Richard Dawkins
Jeff Dee
Samuel R. Delany
Daniel Dennett
David Deutsch
Catherine Deveny
Ani DiFranco
Micky Dolenz
Amanda Donohoe
Phil Donahue
Natalie Dormer
Roddy Doyle
Marcus du Sautoy
E
Christopher Eccleston
Dean Edell
Jonathan Edwards
Paul Edwards
Greg Egan
Barbara Ehrenreich
Paul Ehrlich
Bret Easton Ellis
Harlan Ellison
Warren Ellis
William Empson
Garth Ennis
Brian Eno
Euhemerus
Hugh Everett
F
Oriana Fallaci
Diane Farr
David Feherty
Jules Feiffer
Larry Fessenden
Ludwig Andreas von Feuerbach
Richard Feynman
Harvey Fierstein
Bob Fingerman
Reginald Finley
Brian Flemming
Larry Flynt
Dario Fo
Dave Foley
Peter Fonda
James Forman
Jodie Foster
John Fowles
Robin Lane Fox
Stephen Fry
G
Noel Gallagher
G cont.
Janeane Garofalo
Bob Geldof
Jack Germond
Ricky Gervais
Prabhir Ghosh
David Gilmour
Ira Glass
James Gleick
Jean Luc Godard
Theo van Gogh
Al Goldstein
Mikhail Gorbachev
Nadine Gordimer
Michael Goudeau
Richard E. Grant
A. C. Grayling
Stephen Greenblatt
Susan Greenfield
Germaine Greer
Kathy Griffin
Rachel Griffiths
H
Joe Haldeman
Kathleen Hanna
Yip Harburg
Harry Harrison
Sam Harris
Nina Hartley
Bree Olson
Roy Hattersley
James A. Haught
Bill Hayden
Judith Hayes
Stan Hayes
Robert Heinlein
Nat Hentoff
Katharine Hepburn
Richard Herring
Paul Hester
Christopher Hitchens
Douglas Hofstadter
Jerry Holkins
Ted Honderich
General Choi Hong-Hi
Sidney Hook
Derek Humphry
I
Eddie Izzard
J
Penn Jillette
Billy Joel
Angelina Jolie
Kirk Jones
K
Wendy Kaminer
Alex Kapranos
Jonathan Katz
Dawna Kaufmann
Kawaljeet Kaur
Diane Keaton
Ken Keeler
Ludovic Kennedy
Kevin Kline
Skandar Keynes
Eli Khamarov
Kim Il-Sung
Florence King
Neil Kinnock
W. P. Kinsella
Michael Kinsley
Melvin Konner
K
Frank Kozik
Kramer
Paul Krassner
Ron Kuby
Milan Kundera
Paul Kurtz
L
Artie Lange
Ring Lardner Jr.
Hugh Laurie
Mr. Lavanam
Cloris Leachman
Richard Leakey
Alexander I. Lebed
Bruce Lee
Geddy Lee
Stewart Lee
Tom Lehrer
Mike Leigh
Stanislaw Lem
Vladimir Lenin
Gerda Lerner
Michael Lewis
Tom Leykis
James Lipton
Denis Loubet
H.P. Lovecraft
Arjen Lucassen
M
Heather Mac Donald
Norm Macdonald
Seth MacFarlane
Bill Maher
John Malkovich
Mike Malloy
'Manda
Barry Manilow
Shirley Manson
Mao Zedong
Michael Martin
Karl Marx
Nick Mason
Armistead Maupin
John McCarthy
Malachy McCourt
Evelyn McDonnell
Ian McEwan
Todd McFarlane
Montana McGlynn
Sir Ian McKellen
Alexander McQueen
Butterfly McQueen
Jonathan Meades
Antonio Mendoza
Stephen Merchant
Tom Metzger
Arthur Miller
Frank Miller
Jonathan Miller
Mike Mills
Tim Minchin
Marvin Minsky
Warren Mitchell
John Money
Hans Moravec
Desmond Morris
James Morrow
John Mortimer
M cont.
Markos 'Kos' Moulitsas Z
Frank Mullen
Cillian murphy
N
Taslima Nasrin
Ramendra Nath
Jawaharlal Nehru
Ted Nelson
Randy Newman
Mike Nichols
Jack Nicholson
Kai Nielsen
Oscar Niemeyer
Friedrich Nietzsche
Robert Nozick
Gary Numan
Ronald Numbers
O
Barack Obama Sr.
Bob Odenkirk
Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Patton Oswalt
P
Camille Paglia
Andy Partridge
Mark Pauline
Leonard Peikoff
Paul Pfalzner
Julia Phillips
Joaquin Phoenix
Ferdinand Piech
Steven Pinker
Brad Pitt
Neal Pollack
Sarah Polley
Katha Pollitt
Paula Poundstone
Vladimir Pozner
Terry Pratchett
Paul Provenza
Q
Robin Quivers
R
Daniel Radcliffe
Justin Raimondo
Ayn Rand
James Randi
Ray Romano
Ron Reagan Jr.
Carl Reiner
Rick Reynolds
Griff Rhys-Jones
Mordecai Richler
Christopher Ricks
Matt Ridley
Brian Ritchie
Brad Roberts
Chris Robinson
Gene Roddenberry
Richard Rodgers
Joe Rogan
Neil Rogers
Henry Rollins
Andy Rooney
Richard Rorty
Arundhati Roy
Jane Rule
Salman Rushdie
Douglas Rushkoff
Karen Russell
S
Oliver Sacks
Mona Sahlin
S cont.
Sandbox
Robert Sapolsky
Pamela Sargent
Max Sawicky
John Sayles
Tom Schulman
Eugenie Scott
Captain Sensible
Nick Seymour
Robert I. Sherman
Michael Shermer
Robert Silverberg
Sarah Silverman
Claude Simon
Simplot, J.R.
Joe Simpson
Slayer
J.J.C. Smart
Robert Smith (football)
George H. Smith
Robert Smith
Lee Smolin
Steven Soderbergh
Todd Solondz
Annika Sorenstam
George Soros
Joseph Stalin
Richard Stallman
Victor Stenger
Bruce Sterling
Howard Stern
J. Michael Straczynski
Ken Stringfellow
Julia Sweeney
Matthew Sweet
T
James Taranto
Teller
Studs Terkel
Louis Theroux
Pat Tillman
Tom Tomorrow
Tool
Linus Torvalds
Solomon Tulbure
Ted Turner
Bill Tytla
V
Eddie Vedder
Paul Verhoeven
Gore Vidal
Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
Sarah Vowell
W
Matt Wagner
Jimmy Wales
Annika Walter
Harry Waters
Roger Waters
James Watson
Peter Watts
Steven Weinberg
Gene Weingarten
Joss Whedon
Gene Wilder
Harland Williams
Sean Williams
Ted Williams
Ian Wilmut
Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine
W
Tom Wolfe
Lewis Wolpert
W cont.
Steve Wozniak
Bruce Wright
Y
Irvin D. Yalom
Z
Frank Zappa
Zarkov
Nick Zedd




Disclaimer: This list was supplied to me from a Google search though I assume it to be mostly accurate.

Furthermore:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/26/liberals.atheists.sex.intelligence/index.html?hpt=C2


http://proudatheists.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/sarah-silverman-vatican-video/


Now then... all jokes aside... if you really want to start sparring over religion, I will gladly comply... I just don't want to destroy the quaint culture we all enjoy it... because once the gloves come off about religion... people get hurt.

Quote:I noticed a lot of Communists in that list (though to be fair, I assume you were just copying and pasting without any alteration).

Quote:But in all seriousness, I wasn't trying to start a religious debate. At the same time, I knew the thread might spiral in that direction. I'm actually finding the current debate interesting, though, so carry on if you would like.

Quote:The way I see it, agnosticism accepts that we don't know. Science does not fill in answers to the mysteries of the universe with copout answers such as "God did it," but it is equally a copout to conclude that there is no God because we cannot prove this.

Quote:If religion makes people feel better about losing a loved one or gives them the willpower to fight diseases or overcome life's hardships, then it's fine to believe. However, I have no tolerance for religious-based ignorance, especially when it leads to discrimination or impedes scientific (especially medical) progress (i.e. stem cell research).

Quote:On the whole, I used to dream of a fantastic society where humanity works hand-in-hand, shoulder-to-shoulder, a la Star Trek, for a great, bright future where religion and superstition are forgotten, and we all celebrate science and devote our resources to scientific endeavours to better humanity... like, increasing lifespan, driving back mortality rates, exploring the cosmos, and developing every single academic field to the fullest capacity.

Quote:On the whole, I used to dream of a fantastic society where humanity works hand-in-hand, shoulder-to-shoulder, a la Star Trek, for a great, bright future where religion and superstition are forgotten, and we all celebrate science and devote our resources to scientific endeavours to better humanity... like, increasing lifespan, driving back mortality rates, exploring the cosmos, and developing every single academic field to the fullest capacity.

Alas... so much for dreaming.

Quote:But wait... wouldn't this make Darunia more of a progressive than a conservative?

Quote: it's just a tax on poor and stupid people, essentially, who can't help it but waste what little money they have on things that won't get them anything. It's cruel...

Quote:Because, Weltall, he's a right-wing Republican, not a conservative...

Quote: The US government doesn't operate a lottery. State governments do.

Quote:Also, since you claim to be a proponent of personal freedom, why should you care?

Quote:If you want to criminalize it because some poor people are irresponsible...

Quote:you should just take that thread of logic right to its destination and mandate that poor people should have their finances managed by someone more competent than themselves, so that they are never 'suckered' by evil products such as lottery tickets and cigarettes. Or video games. Or magazine subscriptions. Or DVDs. Or cable TV. Or anything else that constitutes unnecessary luxury of a constant investment for people who can't strictly afford it.

Quote:But governent-sponsored lottery is like government-sponsored, colorfully advertised liquor. (I am against that too, by the way.)

Quote:Because, Weltall, he's a right-wing Republican, not a conservative... they are not the same thing.

Quote:Wrong. I'm a moderate conservative who votes Republican. I am not a right-wing republican. My atheism and hatred of the rich moderate my values. I suppose I transcend all political spectrums. I straddle them all. But, I choose to identify as a moderate conservative. And so it is.

Quote:FIERCELY anti-abortion, pro-personal-freedom, pro-small-government, anti-illegal-immigrant, to name a few.

Quote: (Note that the size of government grew substantially, not shrank, under W. ... and despite more recent attempts for Republicans to distance themselves from him and such, sorry, at the time you were all behind him most of the way.)

Weltall Wrote:Only the true hardcore Democrats will still admit loving Obama in 2013 the way everyone loved him in 2008.

I still don't understand why anyone ever thought he would be a good president. Political views completely aside: He is doing a terrible job. He had the popular mandate and legislative support to do almost anything he wanted, and all that's happened is things getting steadily worse on all fronts. I understand that Obama was elected primarily to be a symbolic figurehead rather than because he possessed any leadership qualities, experience, or political acumen, but still: if the foundation of your entire campaign is I'M NOT GEORGE W. BUSH, you should probably try doing things differently than George W. Bush did. He still blames everything on his predecessor, but at some point, he's going to have to step up and take responsibility.

Quote:Darunia, Being anti abortion is a usual position for a atheist, Unlike your conservative peers I presume you are pro condom and contraceptive?

Quote:would you permit abortion in the case of incest and rape, Horrible deformities and low viability?

Darunia Wrote:I don't mind people using condoms.




Only when the mother's life is in danger. Never out of convenience. If the child is the product of rape, it is not the fault of the child. If the mother can't bear to live with the child, put it up for adoption. When we start picking and choosing who gets to live based on how healthy they are... well.. then you're a eugenicist nazi.

Darunia Wrote:Yes I knew what you meant. I've been told this many times. Because I don't believe in god, I have to endorse the abortion of unborn children. I don't see the connection, but you aren't the first person to tell me this.

Darunia Wrote:Only when the mother's life is in danger. Never out of convenience. If the child is the product of rape, it is not the fault of the child. If the mother can't bear to live with the child, put it up for adoption. When we start picking and choosing who gets to live based on how healthy they are... well.. then you're a eugenicist nazi.

Quote:SUE: Take those forceps doc and remove this living, breathing organism

Darunia Wrote:The fault of the rapist my good sir.


Allow me to explain it to you in means with which I can better illustrate.

CHUCK RAPES SUE.

SUE IS IMPREGNATED.

(Enter Little Chuck)

CHUCK GOES TO JAIL.

SUE: Eegads! Get this thing out of me!

(Sue goes to abortion clinic)

SUE: Take those forceps doc and remove this living, breathing organism, a human being in waiting, of my own flesh and blood, a human being with half my DNA, one that in all likelihood would live to enjoy a full, happy life regardless of the origins of his father, one that will in turn marry and have children, and one that over time will be the progenitor of until thousands more offspring! GET IT OUT OF ME!

(Doctor proceeds to remove unborn fetus with triceps (an actual procedure).)

DOC: There you go, ma'am. The unborn child is now defunct. Yes, I agree, if the poor child had known that his father was a rapist, he certainly would have wanted to be aborted. The child had no future and no right to live, given that his father attacked you. That'll be 99.95, cash or charge? Thanks! Have a nice day.


And when I say "convenience," I mean it.

Putting issues of rape aside, the vast VAST majority of abortions are done, no questions asked. Let's forget, this is a totally legal process. Life isn't sacred, it can be quantified, numericall added and subtracted, and it fits quite conveniently on one's health care bill... (if the Dems get their way.)

Quote:Would you force a prepubescent rape victim to carry a baby to term something that is quite dangerous?

Darunia Wrote:Are the children of rapists innately dangerous for some reason?

And you're right, those pictures are not babies. But, they are life. The term MURDER applies to the termination of HUMAN LIFE, not just babies.

Quote:*The one in the middle is not even a human fetus*

Quote:If it is murder, Then you should be against fertility clinics since they store fertilized embryos in freezers and most never get used and eventually are so damaged from the cold that they become dead material.

Quote:Your sperm is human life and so is a egg, Should you be arrested for jerking off?

Quote:Should every miscarriage be investigated as a possible homicide?

Quote:Should every fetus be given a name, A social security number and be counted as citizens?

Darunia Wrote:Then that's your mistake for putting it there. All fetuses across the whole sprectrum of terrestrial life look strikingly similar in the early stages.



I don't know enough about that process to comment, but my question would be, how are the embryo's gathered?



If you want to draw a line between where life begins, it's there: semen and eggs, separate, are not life. Semen and eggs, combined, and incubated, and growing, is life.



That would be up to the mother. If a pregnant woman is shoved and loses the child, then YES.



When they are born.