FUCKERS!

[Darunia]

Those aren't the specific pictures I found so abhorrent. But if you can look at them and jest then you are not a human. I know we post a lot of weird, fucked up stuff here, but deformed bloody human fetuses, I don't know, there's no humor in that.

This argument will go nowhere except to cause continued anger so I don't know how much point there is to continue it for too long, but I will for a little longer at least.

So be it.

Abortion foes claim to care about life, and then oppose "life and health" exemptions, proving their hypocrisy.

I am going to continue to assume, since this is a two-way dialogue, that you are directing this entirely at me, and that I am your ephemeral abortion foe. Having said that: for the 3rd time, I do not oppose abortin to save the mother's life. That point of yours is defunct.

Geno's point that abortion opponents are usually also national health care opponents is also a very good one, and another case of massive hypocrisy. If they care so much about the health and welfare of the American people, they should be advocates for welfare reform... for single-payer, preferably, because that would actually work.

Now you're really on a tangent. That's like saying, "If anti-abortion people REALLY like people, they should buy everyone in the world puppies." I have no health insurance myself. But, these are two different arguments. The abortion argument and the health care argument are two different fights. Pick one.

But no, they're somehow opposed to actually giving poor people actual competent health care. They only oppose abortion because of religious missionary zeal ("It's murder!"), not because of much actual real concern for people's welfare.

It now appears I'm the target of all of your socialist anger.

They only oppose abortion because of religious missionary zeal ("It's murder!"), not because of much actual real concern for people's welfare.

I'm an atheist. And your assuming that anybody who is anti-abortion is lying and actually has no regard for people's welfare is... so profoundly narrow-minded and dumb that I don't need to refute it an further. You can't make a huge generalization like that unless you are, like I said, profoundly dumb. So, in your case, I'll allow it.

On that note, yes, the Catholic church does consider birth control murder too, because it ends a potential life, and because they believe that sex should never be for fun but should only ever be done for making children -- because humans are corrupt and evil (the Original Sin, remember), so we cannot be allowed to enjoy it, oh no...

I'm an atheist. Not a Catholic.

Anyway, that is why the Catholic Church opposes birth control and abortion, and is why we have an anti-abortion movement today. You're not religious, yet it is religion that is behind your entire side's argument pretty much...

If religious people are the only kind of people with an affinity for life, then, so be it.

Oh yeah, and that opposition to birth control has played a key role in the spreading of AIDS and other diseases in Catholic countries, and of the massive, dangerous population explosions in some third world countries, because those attitudes are the exact opposite of what the people in those countries so desperately need... These are not separate issues.

Yes they are separate issues. And I'm not Catholic and I'm not defending them.

It's not disgusting or untruthful, it's fact. Sexism is a major point behind the pro-choice side, it's very real, and it's one of the most important, most central factors in the debate.

No argument with the bold statement.

So, it's a fact that I'm a sexist Catholic zealot? The burden of truth lies in the accuser, prove this to me. I think you'll have a hard time with it though.

To be short, again, the percentage of men that oppose abortion is much, much, MUCH higher than that of women.

If you're going to continue to cite phantom surveys and statistics, you're going to have to start citing them. I haven't cited any (that I can recall,) but if you must, then you must cite them. Otherwise they are all disregarded.

As I said, there's a very good reason for that -- women actually know somethign about it because they can have children, so they realize what "abortion is illegal" actually means. Men, however, who don't have to think about it, only think about it in the theoretical way, and don't even pause to consider for a second the actual facts such as I presented there.

It's your who aren't pausing to consider the facts here. It's a human life you're flushing away here. For you, it's an idealistic feminist crusade. It's a human life though. You're the one who can't get that through your head.

That may sound like a different reason from what I said there, but it's actually not. The reason why they're not stopping to consider it is partially because they don't have to, but partially because of sexism that causes them (consciously or not) to think less of women than men. It's not exactly saying anything to say that our society is still pretty sexist, it's an obvious fact. That so many men oppose abortion is just another point on the long list.

You're repeating yourself here, and you need to provide citations and links for these surveys and accusations.

... Ever notice how most of the Republican women in the House and Senate support abortion rights of some kind, while almost virtually all (or perhaps all) of the Republican men are opposed? Yeah, there's a reason for that. If those men were women, they wouldn't all be opposed, that's for sure. They'd support women's rights, as many women and liberals do, instead of opposing them, as many conservatives do. But they are not, so oppression continues.

I have no idea on the opinions of every member of the GOP on abortion, male or female. I'm amazed that you do. I'd be interested in seeing a factual poll of this. Go get me one, or shut up with your phantom statistics.

Women are a majority of the American population, hopefully eventually these attitudes will come back to bite the Republicans... here's hoping, anyway. Their anti-minority attitudes sure are, at any rate! Good luck winning Texas in a few decades as its Hispanic population increases if Republicans continue to hyperventilate about how evil Mexicans are...

Commmodore Offtopic again devolves into a general anti-Republican rant. I'm going to side-step this one as it has nothing to do with the argument.

Quote:
Horrible anti-abortion laws. Because any law that prevents women from putting fucking forceps in their vaginas and forcibly removing unborn fetuses is horrible. Who could fucking see anything objectionable to that? Who would ever find anything wrong with pulling a squirming bloody dying fetus from between a woman's legs? What's wrong that that? Only a fool would look at that and find objection to it!

The problem is, you're trying to conduct a theological debate here, as of course has been said... the issue of when a life is not an absolute.

Haha no, the problem here is that we're on opposite sides of a coin. Theoretical? They said above that semen is 'life'... which surprises me, and I'm not quite sure if I agree or not, but you did at the time. Thus, there's nothing theoretical about the statement: Fetus is human life. You didn't argue it before. That's my claim.

Oh yeah, and as always, abortion opponents have absolutely no answer for the point that women are going to ignore anti-abortion law anyway, get them done in secret, and then sometimes die of it. People our age today don't remember what those days were like, but my mom for instance does...

Sounds like your mother is a whore. So, to recap your logic: If something is illegal and dangerous, but people do it anyway, then it should not be illegal. So, cocaine should be legal, because people do it in back alleys and die from it occasionally.

So people like you think that it would be better if women were dying back alleys with no medical care instead of getting the help they need to end their pregnancies.

Nobody is making them get an abortion in the first place.

Utterly despicable. I guess the "response" is "well, fewer 'people' overall would die", but you're putting a priority on early fetuses over actual humans, and that's just not right.

Nobody is making them get an abortion in the first place.

Those self-righteous anti-abortion people, you are supporting murder too... you just won't admit it.

Explain.

restrict choice. Call it "protecting the innocent" instead of "trying to hold back the advancement of women's rights". I however totally disagree.

Honestly though, overall, because of the whole "MURDER" thing, I can understand why it is such a tough issue... gay marriage I can see going away as a major issue, but abortion... that one won't be so easy, and might never go away as an issue. The whole is it murder/isn't it/when is a fetus a human question is so difficult in so many moral, religious, and social grounds that I'm sure it will be a very difficult question for a long time to come, and for good reasons.

Yeppers

And it is a matter of choice; it is not your (or my) body.

So then prostitution, all manner of drugs and mind-altering substances, self-mutilation, and suicide should be legal too, then. It's their body, afterall.

On that note, I almost didn't notice it because I wasn't reading every post in the thread, but I did now... your defense of opposing abortion in cases of rape is utterly despicable.

Is your mom available next weekend?

My point there was that anti-abortion laws often do not have such exceptions, and when they are put in it is usually only because they think that there is a slightly higher chance of the thing somehow getting through with the exemption, not because they actually care about saving lives.

I can disprove that whole last statement right now and here by saying that I am anti-abortion, an atheist, and I care solely about saving lives. That should be abundantly clear by now.

Did I mention I'm an atheist?