20th November 2008, 6:11 PM
(This post was last modified: 20th November 2008, 7:49 PM by A Black Falcon.)
Those are exactly the kinds of things I'm complaining about, DMiller. Really, my long descriptions of those things weren't enough?
Next to the pond. The sign is next to the pond. Which is in the middle of nowhere in a corner you might never notice. That is only a "clue" if you're already there... it won't help you realize that that random out-of-the-way corner of the map has an absolutely vital item in it. They certainly never tell you THAT.
That's exactly the kind of thing I meant when I said "clues" that are nearly useless, pretty much.
Oh yes, because there are NO other caves around Lake Hylia! I mean, there are only like five in the area... which one do they mean? I don't know! Is it important? Who knows! When did they tell me this, if they did? Was there any hint that this was actually relevant and not just another heart piece or chest of rupees something, like a lot of those caves have (some of which I think are hinted at by someone or other)?
Just because the game gives you a vague "clue" about something doesn't mean that it matters or is relevant, and they don't tell you which ones actually matter and which ones (like the thief... at one point you're told about a thief trying to describe himself as an "average middle-age man" and there is such a person, but you don't actually have to do anything with that guy, he has nothing vital. But how am I supposed to know that that guy doesn't while that stupid cave does? I can't, because they aren't THAT helpful with their clues!)
And that's assuming that you heard the clue to begin with... vitally important items should not be hinted at only by some rumor in a conversation in town, they should be given much more obvious clues. Leave the vague rumors for the things you don't actually need to get to finish the game... like OoT, with the Golden Skulltulla, Big Poe, etc, quests. That's how to do it.
... And that's your weakest justification of all. So because there's a grave past a dungeon in an area of limited size, you're supposed to have explored every inch of the area, even the areas PAST the dungeon, before you go back and go in it?
Possibly, but not always. Why in the world should I assume that there's anything important in THAT screen as opposed to all of the others up there, none of them had much of note I believe? If it'd been an item you needed in THAT dungeon it'd have been one thing, at least that way you wouldn't have to go far to get it. But having it be something you need a lot later in the game... that's just cruel. Getting back up there is tedious, once you've used a guide to learn that you need an item you don't have and where the item you need is.
Look, I see your point, and I agree -- if you play the game the way you described, spending a lot of time methodically searching every corner of the map while you go trying to not miss anything, annoyances like missing those items well might not happen. But it's not just 'wanting to hurry through the game' that brings me to not play that way, it's just going by the way more modern games work. Most all RPGs used to do stuff far, FAR worse than anything in LttP... whole games that were giant mazes with no maps you'd have to map yourself on paper were common... but then game designers mostly decided that such things aren't nice, so they gave us things like ingame automaps and quest logs. I don't wish for the days back without those things. I do think that some (many?) games go too far in making everything completely linear and obvious, but thing like maps, quest logs, clear hints that you need some vital item before you go into a dungeon that requires it and hopefully where to start looking for that item... that kind of thing I like.
Quote:For the Quake Medallion I believe there is a sign that says "Do not throw things in the water." Now who wouldn't read that and then throw the sign in the water?
Next to the pond. The sign is next to the pond. Which is in the middle of nowhere in a corner you might never notice. That is only a "clue" if you're already there... it won't help you realize that that random out-of-the-way corner of the map has an absolutely vital item in it. They certainly never tell you THAT.
That's exactly the kind of thing I meant when I said "clues" that are nearly useless, pretty much.
Quote:As for the Ice Rod I remember at least one townsperson (maybe even Sahasrahla) talking about a secret cave east of Lake Hylia.
Oh yes, because there are NO other caves around Lake Hylia! I mean, there are only like five in the area... which one do they mean? I don't know! Is it important? Who knows! When did they tell me this, if they did? Was there any hint that this was actually relevant and not just another heart piece or chest of rupees something, like a lot of those caves have (some of which I think are hinted at by someone or other)?
Just because the game gives you a vague "clue" about something doesn't mean that it matters or is relevant, and they don't tell you which ones actually matter and which ones (like the thief... at one point you're told about a thief trying to describe himself as an "average middle-age man" and there is such a person, but you don't actually have to do anything with that guy, he has nothing vital. But how am I supposed to know that that guy doesn't while that stupid cave does? I can't, because they aren't THAT helpful with their clues!)
And that's assuming that you heard the clue to begin with... vitally important items should not be hinted at only by some rumor in a conversation in town, they should be given much more obvious clues. Leave the vague rumors for the things you don't actually need to get to finish the game... like OoT, with the Golden Skulltulla, Big Poe, etc, quests. That's how to do it.
Quote:As for Ether, I don't remember if there was a clue for that, but when you first enter the Dark World on the mountain there are only a few places you can go when reentering the Light World, and that grave is one of them. That was one of the cases where I remembered that spot after getting the Book of Mudora.
... And that's your weakest justification of all. So because there's a grave past a dungeon in an area of limited size, you're supposed to have explored every inch of the area, even the areas PAST the dungeon, before you go back and go in it?
Possibly, but not always. Why in the world should I assume that there's anything important in THAT screen as opposed to all of the others up there, none of them had much of note I believe? If it'd been an item you needed in THAT dungeon it'd have been one thing, at least that way you wouldn't have to go far to get it. But having it be something you need a lot later in the game... that's just cruel. Getting back up there is tedious, once you've used a guide to learn that you need an item you don't have and where the item you need is.
Look, I see your point, and I agree -- if you play the game the way you described, spending a lot of time methodically searching every corner of the map while you go trying to not miss anything, annoyances like missing those items well might not happen. But it's not just 'wanting to hurry through the game' that brings me to not play that way, it's just going by the way more modern games work. Most all RPGs used to do stuff far, FAR worse than anything in LttP... whole games that were giant mazes with no maps you'd have to map yourself on paper were common... but then game designers mostly decided that such things aren't nice, so they gave us things like ingame automaps and quest logs. I don't wish for the days back without those things. I do think that some (many?) games go too far in making everything completely linear and obvious, but thing like maps, quest logs, clear hints that you need some vital item before you go into a dungeon that requires it and hopefully where to start looking for that item... that kind of thing I like.
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