Is pot smoking evil?!

[Sacred Jellybean]

The question of harm vs. benefit is a central one. Tobacco is very easy to categorize: in any quantity, it does harm.

It tastes good and relieves stress. Those are two benefits.

Alchohol... despite being by far the most abused and dangerous drug fatalities-caused-by-it wise, thanks to drunken driving and alchohol-fueled agression, in small quantities it doesn't do lasting harm and perhaps in some forms helps, so it probably should be legal -- though the societal problems caused by alchohol abuse are huge, and reducing them is very important. I can think of good arguments on both sides of this question... I'm not sure which I more believe.

You concede that alcohol is helpful in some forms, but why don't you do the same with cannabis?

I don't like any drugs when I can avoid them. If I wanted I could be on medication for social anxiety or something, or (lesser) could look more seriously into if some medicine could deal with whatever it is I'm allergic to (that has caused my nose to not be completely clear in seven or eight years now), but I don't, though for the latter the fact that I tried a few for a while and found that they didn't make it completely go away was part of the reason, for the former, it just feels wrong...

Yeah, I don't see any need for medication to treat social anxiety disorder. Therapy, rigorous introspection, and perhaps behavioral conditioning seem more appropriate.

Anyway, arguments like "it is not much more addictive than caffeine" or "it doesn't really do much more impairment than alchohol at best" are not exactly what I would call things that I would look at as examples of why I should support the thing.

Don't you consider it a double-standard, though, that we lock people up for cannabis possession and trafficking when it's not as harmful as alcohol? Isn't the fact that it's costly and wasteful enough reason to legalize it? What about the fact that the black market thrives on its illegality?

Legalize something and more people will use it.

As I stated in my earlier post, this is a common misconception not supported by facts.

From http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/commb...m#_ftnref3 :

In conclusion, trends in cannabis use in the Netherlands are rather similar to those in other European countries, and Dutch figures on cannabis use are not out of line with those from countries that did not decriminalise cannabis. The U.S. figures consistently appear to be higher then those in the Netherlands. Over time prevalence of cannabis use show a wave-like trend in many countries, including the Netherlands. This supports Reuband’s earlier conclusion that trends cannabis use evolve rather independently from drug policy, and that countries with a ‘liberal’ cannabis policy do not have higher or lower rates than countries with a more repressive policy.[Reuband, 1995].

Consequently, it is unlikely that decriminalization of cannabis will cause an increase in cannabis use.

As a result, legalization of marijuana would harm the public health with only minimal gain (among that tiny percentage who might find medical gains, and medical use could be approved without general legalization, perhaps, under certain conditions).

I'd call the freedom to possess and purchase cannabis without worrying about legal repercussions is more than a minimal gain. I find cannabis to be a healthier alternative to alcohol, and hence, it would benefit the population to give people a better choice in terms of choosing intoxicants.

For instance, Prohibition. While everyone thinks of the speakeasies and illegally made liquor, what isn't as well known is the fact that during prohibition, the number of people using alchohol, and the number abusing it, fell dramatically. The federal government eventually gave up because of public pressures and the impossible task of policing it all in a state of increased criminal activity to serve the people who would not give up alchohol, but overall, drunkenness and alchohol abuse rates dropped appreciably. Once it was legalized again, they began to go back up.

Perhaps, but if you look at the statistics, it shows that rates of drug usage have slightly gone up since the War on Drugs was put into action.

Anyway... legalization might well decrease the criminal activities surrounding the marijuana trade, but it would increase the numbers of people using the drug dramatically, and that would NOT be a good thing.

Not so. Like I've shown, rates of cannabis usage in Amsterdam are less than those in the United States and England.

Perhaps look into whether it could actually work in certain medical situations (I am far from convinced that there is proof that it's actually needed (that is, that nothing else could help), and set up a legal procedure for those people to get marijuana in a way that would not support crime (buying it on the street and supporting whatever gangs or criminal groups were involved in its production, transportation, and sale), but don't generally legalize.

Did you even look at the response I gave to you? There have been numerous scientific studies proving marijuana's medicinal value. Montel Williams, who believes that recreational usage of marijuana should NOT be legalized, is a medical marijuana user and swears by its effectiveness. Medical marijuana is not a Trojan horse for legalization.

I remember when a few years ago I had a roommate (idiot...)... every weekend he went out with his friends and did marijuana or alchohol (not 21 yet) or both, whatever. He got in trouble with the law once that year (him and his genius friends were on something and decided to enter someone's open room and take something in it. They got caught.) and again later on (after that school year, for smoking marijuana on Main Street, I believe... smart, that!).

Your former-roommate is an idiot. It's not hard to exercise basic caution in keeping cannabis smoking on the down-low, and he failed miserably. Don't use him as a point-of-reference for all marijuana users. I've never been caught with cannabis.

If I hadn't already been strongly opposed to drug use, that would have done it, I expect...

Done what? Opened the gateway to your failure at life for experimenting with an illicit drug? Clarification is needed...

that wasn't my point, though. My point was this -- the whole mindset of "wow, I don't remember what we were doing last night at all, isn't that awesome" makes absolutely no sense to me. You forget what you were doing... so that's a GOOD thing? Uh, isn't that pretty obviously BAD, not good? Yup.

I generally forget more of what went on as a result of drinking, rather than smoking. With smoking, it's easy to remember what occurred, because it doesn't kill my brain and put me out-of-control. I don't generally like getting incapacitated either, or having to apologize for my behavior and feeling embarrassed the next day.

From what I've been reading, the reduced risks are not exactly what you might think. It does not cause emphyzima, but it does have numerous carcinogens.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...l=pubmed_docsum

From wikipedia:

Cannabis smoke contains numerous carcinogens[6][7][8], however scientific studies have failed to show higher cancer rates in cannabis smokers. A study published in 2006 by Donald Tashkin of the University of California, Los Angeles, the largest study of its kind, concluded there is no link between smoking cannabis and lung cancer. [36]A study published in 2006 on a large population sample (1,200 people with lung, neck, or head cancer, and a matching group of 1,040 without cancer) failed to positively correlate a lung cancer risk, in fact the results indicated a slight negative correlation between long and short-term cannabis use and cancer, suggesting a possible therapeutic effect. Cellular studies and even some studies in animal models suggest that THC has antitumor properties, either by encouraging programmed cell death of genetically damaged cells that can become cancerous, or by restricting the development of the blood supply that feeds tumors.[37] Prior, a 1997 study examining the records of 64,855 Kaiser patients (14,033 of whom identified themselves as current smokers), also found no positive correlation between cannabis use and cancer.[38] A Research Triangle Institute study concluded that THC, a dilative agent, may help cleanse the lungs by dilating the bronchi, and could actively reduce the instance of tumors.[39] Additionally, a study by Rosenblatt et al. found no association between marijuana use and the development of head and neck squamous cell carcinoma.[40]

Further, more studies DO in fact show reduced reaction times among other cognitive deficiencies. It can be extrapolated that people driving while high are probably about as dangerous as people driving while tired, another dangerous activity (which is legal, but I'd say that's mainly because it's very hard to test for "tiredness". Certainly risking your own life is fine but the line is drawn when you decide to risk other's lives because, you have to get your car home, right? I mean, what do you expect me to take a bus? YOU take a bus!).

That's true, but I'm simply pointing out that it's a logical fallacy to state that cannabis should be kept illegal because people may drive under its influence, when its influence isn't as deadly as a drunk driver behind the wheel. I don't generally make it a practice to drive under the influence unless it's an emergency (and besides, I live in the city, so everything's within walking distance anyway).

Anecdotally, I can say that the one time I've played against some people that actually were high (a rare find with the people I hang out with, and actually I haven't seen these people in years), their abilities sank while their confidence in their abilities rose. The game was Super Smash Bros. Melee. Anyway again that's just a personal anecdote.

Did you play them while sober, and again while they were high? They could have been poor players to begin with. Melee players like to blow their abilities out of proportion, and the problem is, they're often oblivious to their true level of skill as a result of usually only playing with one group of people.

It also depends on how much they smoke. I usually only smoke enough to get a buzz if I'm playing a game, not enough to put me on my ass (though cannabis "putting me on my ass" is a rarity nowadays anyway).

Though there is this study:

http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannab..._driving4.shtml

From that website:

As a consequence, THC's adverse effects on driving performance appear relatively small.

I'm not saying that getting high and driving is harmless, but I am trying to point out that the level of impairment one experiences is dramatically lower than that of alcohol.

And for the record, philosophy? I'm sure you had a great time saying things like "what if god is INSIDE us?" or "no I mean like, REALLY inside us" or "yeah... what? no right", but I'd like to hear something using logic (or maybe you have "other ways of knowing") come out of that.

I'm glad you were present to know the level of intelligence in which I spoke. I don't have any studies to prove this one (and I doubt any exist), so there's no way practical way to convince you.

Anyway, don't drive high. Just don't. It may be debatable if it should be illegal, and I really don't care much if you have this hobby as you call it, but certainly it's wrong to endanger someone ELSE and I'm in full support of the law in that regard. No hypothetical "well MAYBE I drive more catiously because I know I'm high" nonsense either.

From the link you provided:

Drivers under the influence of marijuana retain insight in their performance and will compensate where they can, for example, by slowing down or increasing effort.

The evidence says one thing, you have reduced ability, and unless you have something better than hypothetical reasons why that might not apply while driving, well, just don't drink and drive, drive while very tired, or get high and drive. In all three instances, what's giving a few hours to lose the effects going to do? Even if there's a sudden emergency in the family, that's not worth the risk. You aren't going to be doing the surgery or investigation or extinguising the fire or whatever yourself, so you aren't needed. You can deal with the emotional whatevers later.

What if it's urgent that a person is rushed to a hospital, and waiting for an ambulance might compromise the ill person's health? Not everything is black-and-white, but generally, I agree with that sentiment.

Oh, you'll need to show some sort of evidence that this whole "turning off your brain" thing is actually a good thing for mental stability (emotions are PART of mentallity, they need not be mentioned seperatly). I do that anyway, and it's called sleep. Aside from that, I really just can't shut off my brain and I'm really not sure I want to. I enjoy thinking about things constantly myself, not that I can help it. Indeed, I can't really stay on a single topic for very long periods of time either.

It's common sense that relaxation is helpful towards emotional fulfillment. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy, and all that. Do you really want me to search for a study to prove this?

How do you justify comparing marijuana to sleeping, or "turning off your brain" as you put it, aside from a few slightly impaired cognitive abilities? I can do just about anything high that I can while sober: play the guitar, play video games, watch movies, etc. It doesn't make me forget things, but rather, helps me relax while thinking about and doing the exact same things. I could have held this exact same debate while under cannabis's influence.