18th June 2016, 9:58 PM
For another example of how much I dislike open-world design, I would say that StarTropics is a better game than the original Legend of Zelda, because it's also fatnastic, but is a more focused, fun experience that doesn't rely on stupid crutches like "go find the random hidden stuff" or "wander around pointlessly for no good reason". I've beaten StarTropics 1, did so in the late '00s, and loved it. But Zelda 1? I've still never gotten past the sixth dungeon. Sure, it's a classic and a game I remember playing back during the NES'es lifespan various places, while StarTropics isn't (I'd heard of it in Nintendo Power, but not played it until the '00s), but while Zelda is fun, it's also flawed and frustrating. StarTropics is better for sure, and it's the best action-RPG I have played for the NES.
But to try to guess at what you mean, you can explore most of the world in LttP without items, and that map is so dull! No other Zelda game has such a poorly-designed grid (grid, 9 squares, etc, I've said it before), at least in OoT and MM even if there is a hub-and-spokes design like LttP each spoke is more interesting in shape and design than anything you see in LttP. In LttP, sure, there are some areas to unlock, as well as the not-very-different Dark World, but not many compared to the worlds of better games like Link's Awakening. Exploring the world in LA is so much more fun than it is in LttP, because it feels like you're actually progressing, and not just wandering around in a large empty space. LttP's world may be larger in terms of physical tiles than LA's, but it feels small due to its design, which is why I remember years back saying something about LA having the larger world... which is wrong, but I can see why I'd think that. And of course the LttP town is kind of boring too. And as for items, the ones in dungeons are fine, but the dumb random hidden stuff isn't, I don't like that at all (medallion, ice rod, that lake, etc, as discussed in the past). But as for those dungeons, LttP's dungeon designs are some of the weaker ones in the series, with how many of them are annoying long corridors, not the more interesting designs of the other games... and then in one of the otherwise more interesting dungeons they pulled that unforgivable "ice rod required at the bottom and we never mentioned that item before' stunt. So yeah.
And remember, I care less than most people seem to about loot in games. I almost never play games just to get better stuff, that's not something that often actually interests me. I like exploration, finding new places, and putting them on a permanent map... so yeah, not a fan of randomly-regenerated-every-time stuff either. :p (Stupid Diablo games, even though I know the map isn't permanent I can't help but want to explore out every zone every time I play one... I find that much more fun than whatever loot the game drops.) This applies here because you make it sound like just getting items is a reward on its own in LttP, in lieu of having more areas to explore, but I don't agree with that. Of course it's fun to use new items in a Zelda game, but that's as much in the context of the new places it'll let you get to than it is with the item itself... apart from things which add to the combat too, such as a bow, fire rod, etc. But I probably wouldn't keep playing a game just to get some item.
Now, of course, Ocarina of Time copies a lot of things about LttP's world design... but it's not hurt by it as much because of the amazing dungeons, because of the vastly larger amounts of added content in the towns and such, and because of the much larger side areas you can't explore until you have progressed in the game and gotten key items, etc. And while I find it disappointing for other reasons, I do appreciate MM's overworld, which is better than OoT's because of the more complex, segmented design. After MM they've tried, in varying ways, to have both scale and complexity in 3d Zelda worlds. And I think it worked; the MM overworld was fun to explore, I liked the sailing, and the islands each had a puzzle on them at minimum. TP's world is like a bigger OoT, and it's a lot of fun to explore. It is annoying that it's only after the second dungeon that they finally let you explore the whole thing, but once it opens up it's great. And SS's "it's all a dungeon" design was less successful, but I do like flying around in the sky even if it's probably not quite as good as MM's ocean, the town is one of the best in the series, and the ground areas have lots of interesting stuff in them.
Dark Jaguar Wrote:I... just can't possibly understand your opinion on Link to the Past. I think just about everything you said is simply... entirely backwards! I mean, the sense of adventure as you get new abilities and unlock new areas is completely lost?I'm not sure what you mean here by "the sense of adventure as you get new abilities and unlock new areas is completely lost"? Please explain.
But to try to guess at what you mean, you can explore most of the world in LttP without items, and that map is so dull! No other Zelda game has such a poorly-designed grid (grid, 9 squares, etc, I've said it before), at least in OoT and MM even if there is a hub-and-spokes design like LttP each spoke is more interesting in shape and design than anything you see in LttP. In LttP, sure, there are some areas to unlock, as well as the not-very-different Dark World, but not many compared to the worlds of better games like Link's Awakening. Exploring the world in LA is so much more fun than it is in LttP, because it feels like you're actually progressing, and not just wandering around in a large empty space. LttP's world may be larger in terms of physical tiles than LA's, but it feels small due to its design, which is why I remember years back saying something about LA having the larger world... which is wrong, but I can see why I'd think that. And of course the LttP town is kind of boring too. And as for items, the ones in dungeons are fine, but the dumb random hidden stuff isn't, I don't like that at all (medallion, ice rod, that lake, etc, as discussed in the past). But as for those dungeons, LttP's dungeon designs are some of the weaker ones in the series, with how many of them are annoying long corridors, not the more interesting designs of the other games... and then in one of the otherwise more interesting dungeons they pulled that unforgivable "ice rod required at the bottom and we never mentioned that item before' stunt. So yeah.
And remember, I care less than most people seem to about loot in games. I almost never play games just to get better stuff, that's not something that often actually interests me. I like exploration, finding new places, and putting them on a permanent map... so yeah, not a fan of randomly-regenerated-every-time stuff either. :p (Stupid Diablo games, even though I know the map isn't permanent I can't help but want to explore out every zone every time I play one... I find that much more fun than whatever loot the game drops.) This applies here because you make it sound like just getting items is a reward on its own in LttP, in lieu of having more areas to explore, but I don't agree with that. Of course it's fun to use new items in a Zelda game, but that's as much in the context of the new places it'll let you get to than it is with the item itself... apart from things which add to the combat too, such as a bow, fire rod, etc. But I probably wouldn't keep playing a game just to get some item.
Now, of course, Ocarina of Time copies a lot of things about LttP's world design... but it's not hurt by it as much because of the amazing dungeons, because of the vastly larger amounts of added content in the towns and such, and because of the much larger side areas you can't explore until you have progressed in the game and gotten key items, etc. And while I find it disappointing for other reasons, I do appreciate MM's overworld, which is better than OoT's because of the more complex, segmented design. After MM they've tried, in varying ways, to have both scale and complexity in 3d Zelda worlds. And I think it worked; the MM overworld was fun to explore, I liked the sailing, and the islands each had a puzzle on them at minimum. TP's world is like a bigger OoT, and it's a lot of fun to explore. It is annoying that it's only after the second dungeon that they finally let you explore the whole thing, but once it opens up it's great. And SS's "it's all a dungeon" design was less successful, but I do like flying around in the sky even if it's probably not quite as good as MM's ocean, the town is one of the best in the series, and the ground areas have lots of interesting stuff in them.
Quote:I've said this before but, did you even play the same game the rest of the world did?I think some people are too blinded with nostalgia about that game... and yes, I have nostalgia for LA, but still.
Quote:Well, it's a matter of personal taste, and I could accept that if you just weren't so absolutely certain about LTTP's supposed failings with all your "obviously"s thrown in there.Well, given that we'd discussed LttP quite a few times before on this site, isn't my opinion on it fairly well known by this point? :p I've always been critical of the game to some extent.