Dark Jaguar Wrote:I... just can't possibly understand your opinion on Link to the Past. I think just about everything you said is simply... entirely backwards! I mean, the sense of adventure as you get new abilities and unlock new areas is completely lost?

Quote:I've said this before but, did you even play the same game the rest of the world did?

Quote:Well, it's a matter of personal taste, and I could accept that if you just weren't so absolutely certain about LTTP's supposed failings with all your "obviously"s thrown in there.

Dark Jaguar Wrote:I thought I'd make a proper thread dedicated to the hype train this particular game has started.

I for one am very excited about this one. I've noted how many gamers have found Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword to be disappointing. Their reasons have been all over the place, but at this point I've got a good handle on what's changed (and for what matter, what Wind Waker did right). Namely, the freedom to roam was taken away from players in both Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. This has been a steady trend going back to when Zelda games got more cinematic. In order to direct those more movie-like moments, they had to funnel the player into a number of "plot gates", and Nintendo's been feeling the pushback as of late for such choices.

Quote:This also goes for their recent 2D games. The Capcom-made ones suffered from "gating" the player through and not really allowing a full sense of exploration, though to a lesser extent than TP and SS (huh, those are some problematic acronyms).

Quote:For my part, my favorite Zelda games are universally the oldest ones. Link to the Past, in recent years, has finally surpassed Link's Awakening in my standing. Link's Awakening is good, but Link to the Past allows more freedom.

Quote:The very first Zelda game, while it has the least to do and least variety in puzzle design, had a truly open world more open than any later game.

Quote:Link to the Past is a close second though. Link to the Past, once you get past the opening, lets you go wherever you like. You can break sequence right from the start, although clearing Death Mountain before the other two palaces does require some creativity that the designers may not have intended. Once you reach the dark world, once again you're free to take on the dungeons in an almost completely free way.

Quote:Ocarina of Time will always have a place in my list of favorite games, but it's luster has faded a bit. It is still a very well done game, but it was the start of a bad trend. Everything I can complain about with newer Zelda games got it's start with OOT. I never "hated" Navi like a lot of gamers, but her basic design of "hint giver" was not well done. She forced herself on you far too often and annoyed you into listening to her hints when you might have wanted to solve the puzzle yourself.

Quote:While the overworld is far more open than later games like TP, it was also the start of forcing you along a gated path. There wasn't much of a way to do dungeons out of order, with only a few notable exceptions. It still did at least allow you to wander off to other locations and explore a bit though. I think we all loved finding that fishing pond for the first time.

Quote:Majora's Mask continued that trend, but it did offer an amazingly well designed experience in it's own right, and I gotta appreciate it for what it is. It is still one of my favorites just for being such an odd one.

Quote:Link Between Worlds was Nintendo's first attempt at a return to form. It is great, and really challenges Link to the Past as my all-time favorite game.

Quote: It does have a more "open" design than LTTP, which is saying something, but that does come at a cost. In their effort to give the player choice, it skews a little too close to Megaman-like stage design. All the dungeons are "equal" difficulty, save the "final" one unlocked after beating them. For that matter, every dungeon only requires one specific item to solve it's puzzles. There's no sense of steadily using more and more tools to solve ever more elaborate puzzle design. The items themselves can all be obtained without needing to dive into the major dungeons, but that's because you just buy them all from the sales bunny camping in your house. There's no real sense of accomplishment in getting those items. You just grind up money and buy them.

Quote:That's a shame, because the "side dungeons", those little caves dotting Zelda games with smaller scale challenges, would have been the perfect place to stick those items in as reward. You could still do things in any order, but you'd still need to find each item and solve puzzles to reach them. For all that I said, it is still a very well made game and I go back to it more often than I have a lot of recent Zelda games. I still highly recommend it.

Quote:So that leads us here. Not only do they seem to be learning from the design issues of recent Zelda games, they're adding in all sorts of fun things to do. I'm not a big fan of item durability in my Zelda games, but if they do it right, maybe those items will just feel like those "temp" weapons you could pick up off enemies in Wind Waker (Double Dragon style weapons, basically). The open world design should have that sense of a vastness that Wind Waker had, but on actual land. Even the art design really calls back to Zelda 1. (I've always loved how Zelda, as a series, isn't afraid to completely reinvent it's art style every few games, so if you aren't a fan of one art style, don't worry, they'll be trying something else in a few years.) The sense of loneliness in this vast world means they will be skewing away from cinematic narrative in favor of letting you put together the story by just exploring the world. Think something like Myst or the Souls series. I don't need everything spelled out for me, so this is great.

Dark Jaguar Wrote:Well, of course your opinion is well known. You're the one who gives it every single time LTTP is brought up, ya know.

Oh, and that line that so confused you is something YOU SAID. I was disagreeing with it, that's all.

Quote:Look, you've made your point many many times. I disagree. Most of us disagree. I don't think it's nostalgia at all. Read all the articles from people with a lot of experience dissecting classic games explaining why they all think LTTP is a very well made game. I'll never be able to convince you that LTTP's map isn't boring (I don't think it is, as time goes on I become more and more impressed by just how well they designed it and how well they used the space, and I have a number of memories of discovering new places and being wow'd by them).

Quote:I too am not obsessed with "loot", as you put it, but those things you say aren't there, me and most others say ARE there. I don't understand how you came to that view, no matter how many times you explain it, I end up thinking the exact opposite of practically everything you type about the game, so it's hard to really connect. That's fine. Sometimes, it's impossible for people to understand each other, and that's okay. I just really am sick of debating the merits of LTTP EVERY SINGLE TIME it gets brought up.

Quote:I'm just trying to get across my thoughts on the new game, and how I feel it's a good return to form.

Along those lines though, I haven't heard any indication they're randomly generating maps. This world seems to have that hand-crafted design to it, which looks good to me.

Quote:My favorite Zelda games? Mmm... I'm not sure I can put Oracle of Ages (or Seasons) on my list. The puzzles are well designed enough, but lately I've been thinking a lot about overall "flow" and how a game leads you from one place to the next. There is a VERY interesting article about Super Metroid you should read, about how the game puts in very subtle hints to "guide" you from one place to another without actually holding your hand or forcing you to go a specific way.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/HugoB...er_Metroid.php

Gamasutra posits that this is the essence of good game design. The smaller parts matter, but the overall design is absolutely critical, and Super Metroid gets just about everything perfectly in how it guides the player without the player even realizing it. I'm tempted to agree with them, and as a result I've been looking back at my favorite games and noticing the same sorts of design tricks.

To that end, I can now say why I didn't quite consider Ages as good as, say, LA. The way it "presents" things to you, and the way the game opens up (or, in this case, doesn't) just isn't as well thought out as my favorite Zelda games.

So, what are my favorite Zelda games? Link's Awakening is definitely up there, but in recent years and recent playthroughs, I am now going back to Link to the Past as my absolute favorite. It may have even been a tie between that and Ocarina of Time, and OOT is still on my list, make no mistakes, but Link to the Past is basically right up there. My opinions on Twilight Princess and even Skyward Sword have shifted quite a bit as well.

Zelda 1 gets a lot of those basics right from the start. It's certainly the most "open world" of the whole series. Basically right from the first screen, you can go wherever you want. Heck, you can even avoid the very first weapon and play the game anyway. "No sword" quests are a common challenge in Zelda 1. While you do need certain items to progress past certain obstacles, by and large you can generally at least try to tackle dungeons out of order. I recall actually finishing dungeon 3 before tackling the correct first dungeon, for example. All that said, there's no promises. Certain dungeons have completely unpassable things without items from the earlier dungeons. Others just make things a lot more difficult. For example, the candle is optional, but navigating pitch black rooms isn't easy. Zelda 1 got me into the series, but it's still rough, unrefined. The simple fact is, the obstacles in the game aren't exactly puzzles for the most part. There ARE genuine puzzles, in the game, such as solving certain riddles and figuring out the locations of movable blocks, but for the most part the game consists of a very Metroid-ish "this is an obstacle, you need this item to bypass it" format. The emphasis is more on exploration and combat than pure puzzle solving as later games would delve more into. The same can be said of Zelda II. Zelda II is certainly very different, but in terms of the focus of design (exploration and combat over pure puzzle solving), it is in the same camp.

LTTP is the first to put a true focus on cleverly designed puzzles as an ongoing challenge throughout the game, rather than something that only happened every now and then. Aside from that, it returned to the style of Zelda 1 (overhead, no experience, everything takes place in the same basic layout), and henceforth established that Zelda II was an anomaly. However, it also did a number of other things. Namely, it became more story driven. Zelda II started this, with towns full of people to talk to. However, LTTP really expanded the story telling beyond just the towns. The narrative tied together everything. The plot device of psychic communication allowed the designers to add in all sorts of elements like the tablets that gave you hints from Sahasrala, Zelda's pleas, and so on. This was a huge step up from Zelda 1 and 2, in which generally once you left the townsfolk, it was pure gameplay from then until you got back to town. Heck, one of the most creative ways they kept the storytelling with you even in the dungeons was in Blind's Hideout. You found a young woman who asked you to help her "escape", even though every time you tried to, she said she didn't want to go that way. Eventually, you figured out you had to "force" her into the light, by tricking her into going into a room you bombed the roof of earlier to allow sunlight to go in. This revealed she was never some poor victim, but the boss of the dungeon attempting to waste your time by forcing you to endlessly wander around. They also had other very nice bits of story, such as the ocarina playing boy in the woods, who you eventually found out had been turned into a tree in the dark world. It was a very sad moment, one of the first to really get to me in a video game. This is why I say that while the story of LTTP may be a standard fantasy "hero saves the day" type of thing, the WAY it's told really set a higher bar for the Zelda series.

However, that alone isn't why I now consider it my favorite Zelda of all time. It's not the way the story was much more fully integrated with the exploration, or the expanded gameplay (let's face it, Ocarina of Time and later Zelda games have steadily expanded combat design by leaps and bounds over this), or even the light world/dark world dynamic that has been copied numerous times since LTTP (and was all by itself a monumentally amazing idea). It's how they managed to do all that, and STILL give you a sense that you can go anywhere in that world, do anything. They told a story better and had deeper puzzle design while still taking nothing away from the sense of exploration. I have VERY vivid memories of my first times playing this game (originally as a rental, then as a gift). I was taken aback by the sheer scope of the world before me, or the sheer sense of scope at least. I could go anywhere, I felt, and I did. I spent hours just wandering around the land before even tackling the first dungeon, and the game didn't do anything to prevent that, other than block off Death Mountain. I kept playing around with everything I could see, exploring the graveyard, that little bush hiding a fairy pond to the right of the graveyard, and all around Lake Hylia. By the time I actually got ON with the quest at hand, I felt like I'd seen a lot, and then the world started changing! The town became a dangerous place for me, certain enemy locations shifted a bit, and as I got more tools, it opened up little caves and such. Eventually, I found a way to climb death mountain only to find I could only reach half of it, and got my first taste of the dark world. Once I reached it for "real", that's when I got surprised. Now, at this point they didn't let me continue exploring the dark world until I finished the first dungeon there. That one bit of "gating" is a misstep in the design, but at least it introduces you to the changes bit by bit and sets up exactly what you are supposed to do now that you're here. Once you get that hammer though, the rest of the dark world is basically open to you. I had a great time exploring beyond that. The next dungeons were all numbered on the world map, but again much like Zelda 1, you were left free to at least try getting to and solving the dungeons out of order. Some items were too critical to avoid, but generally you could at least get started, and that's how I did it the first time around. All subsequent playthroughs, I do things exactly as numbered, but my first time? Yeah, I tried all sorts of sequence breaking, as far as I was able, and I loved it. Heck, one nice thing is, if you get stuck in a dungeon, but you got that dungeon's special item, heck, try a different one and see how it helps you. That sort of mid-way quitting style sequence breaking was a fun way to break things up. It took me a month or two to complete the game, and oh so many deaths, but I loved every minute of it. I loved how open the world could be, even while maintaining the story being told. Even those speeches from the maidens you rescued never felt like they absolutely needed to be in some specific order. All this reflection made me realize that no Zelda game since then has ever captured that the way LTTP did.

Now, I also love Link's Awakening. In some ways, I prefer it to LTTP. However, on reflection I was looking at smaller parts to decide that. LA does include item combining, and the story is better I think. I also still love the dungeon designs and such, but on balance, the game really "locks off" huge chunks of the map and guides you on a much more forced path. It isn't until you get to dungeon 3 that you are even allowed outside the westernmost section of the map, after all! For such a long section of the game, you're basically "stuck" at the first town, it's beach, the forest, and eventually the swamp. The game doesn't even open up in one big go, it opens up gradually. Now, it does great puzzle design. I love the riddles each dungeon has. As much as I enjoyed the DX remake's additions, I must agree that they went too far when they added all those extra hints to every dungeon. That sense of freedom to explore was curtailed more and more starting with this entry though, and for that I now have to rank it below LTTP.

Ocarina of Time will always be one of my favorite games. I love it, and loved the way it told that story. That sense of "you can't go home" they fostered with Link's whole growing up story resonates even more with me as the years go on. The time travel mechanic was a nice addition, although for me it wasn't exactly new because I'd been messing around with time travel mechanics since Chrono Trigger. Again, I'd been looking forward to this like everyone else for what felt like SUCH a long time since the last Zelda game, and it was worth it. I like the game, is what I'm saying.

However, again I noticed a certain trend. In favor of the well designed story telling they did, they sacrificed a few things. Now, I'll say it right now. I actually LIKE Navi the fairy. (I also like Slippy Toad.) The running jokes about how annoying she is? I disagreed. However, I can safely say that her puzzle "hints" were a bit too on the nose. Her hints were just a bit... too obvious. Now, think about some of these puzzles. In OOT, a LOT of the game's puzzles centered around changing your point of view. These were challenging to us mainly because 3D gaming was such a new thing. Today? They don't even count as puzzles. Remember the first boss, in the Deku Tree? You had to find it, and how surprised you were when you finally decided to look up, and saw it on the ceiling? Yeah, that was the game's way of making you think in 3D instead of 2D to find things. The game did that numerous times, and I think as kids we needed that, because our perspective did need to shift. What about today? Most kids today are so used to gaming in 3D that putting an obvious target on the ceiling isn't even a puzzle, it's simply there. What I'm saying is, a lot of OOT's perspective based puzzles don't stand the test of time very well. That's not ALL of them, mind you, it still has some well designed puzzles, and some trippy moments, but it's just a fact that puzzles that make the assumption you aren't thinking in 3D very well yet aren't going to age well. Also? Once again, the game "gates" a LOT of content. Hyrule field was fun to explore, but again the series was starting to make the game a little less about freedom to explore and much more about having to hit each dungeon in a predetermined way. The story itself gave you the keys you needed to get to certain dungeons, in the form of songs that just teleported you there. You didn't find these songs, they found you at very specific parts of the story, meaning the story had an unprecedented amount of control over exactly where you were allowed to go. Still, by and large outside of those restrictions, you could still at least explore the overworld more fully sooner than in LA.

When Wind Waker came along, I recall stating one of my absolute favorite parts was simply the act of sailing around. They handled that VERY well, except for a few things. The "early" sections of the game just gave you the illusion of being able to sail anywhere. For many sections, the story more or less forces you to move along. There's so many islands to sail to, but the red lion boat basically forces you to turn around. Nothing in-game is blocking you off at this point, the story itself just says "nope, can't go that way yet, this is more important". It keeps doing this, presumably so you don't notice that the 3rd dungeon location was ALWAYS a complete wreck. Now, eventually the world does open up, and you are finally allowed to sail right up to the edge of the map. However, it sure does take a while to get you to that point, and that's my biggest frustration with that game. I remember just sort of rushing through the first few dungeons JUST to "unlock" the full world so I could finally get to explorin'. The puzzles in the game also started a downward trend. If you thought Navi's clues were a bit too spot-on, this is the first Zelda game where the game's own interface started solving puzzles for you, with that "action" icon whenever you pointed at something you could hookshot to, for example. I felt that gave away too many secrets, and the ship of red lions was way worse about solving puzzles for you than Navi ever was. I basically started ignoring the ship's buzzing pendant just so I could at least have a CHANCE of getting stuck. These two flaws are a shame, because Wind Waker is a beautiful game, a fun world to explore when it lets you, and has very well designed combat. Those flaws keep it just below my top games though, they're just too hard for me to ignore, even if I love how the music works in concert with your actions.

Twilight Princess? I'm not going to pretend I didn't love it, and I still think it's haunting atmosphere and story were well done. There's a lot to like about it, but it just kept going down the path of locking away that sense of exploration. The puzzles were better done this time around, I thought, and at the time I actually liked the motion controls, wonky as they were. However, it's a fact that in order to tell that atmospheric story, they felt the need to literally wall off massive sections of the game with huge barriers. In subsequent playthroughs, the game feels far more like a straight line of events you are guided through than a game about being free to explore. Skyward Sword, a game I previously wanted to rank higher than OOT, well, I don't think I do now, but wow did I appreciate their attempt at "opening up" the world better than TP had done, and starting to undo that trend of closing things up. It still wasn't as good as the older Zeldas, but they finally realized they had a problem and were taking steps to resolve that. I think I appreciated the attempt so much that I felt the need to praise it by a HUGE amount in thanks, without at the time really understanding why I felt that way. Certainly the crafting system alone wasn't worth that sort of praise.

I've skipped a few. Hmm, as for the Four Swords games, they were stage-based games, not about exploration at all. The second, even with it's better stage design and story telling, was still the most linear yet. Fun game, yes, but as a multiplayer game and not as a single player experience. As for the Capcom games like Oracles and Minish Cap, well, I did like them, but as I've alluded to, they also gate things too much. That sense of really exploring a full world isn't as well developed. Minish Cap in particular is just WAY too small to really allow for that sense of a vast world to explore.

This gets me to Majora's Mask. I think I may love that game more than OOT. I think I said so at the time. Again, the story telling is amazing. Now, that game is just as "gated" as OOT is, namely with how you need to do this or that and the world doesn't really open up until the "end" when you've been everywhere. What sets it apart is that Majora's Mask gives you a full sense of exploring "time". Chrono Trigger and OOT got nothing on just how detailed everyone's lives were, and how you could explore the full breadth of everyone in town's lives over the course of 3 days. I felt that sense of exploration in a fully unexpected way with that game. Now, that said, it's STILL just one town, and outside of that town the few NPCs you meet don't really have fully developed day to day lives (one exception would be the farm), so I can't quite put it up with LTTP, but wow does it deserve mention.

This is why I have to say how much of a surprise Link Between Worlds was. It was the first time in a long long time I truly felt like I had a full world to explore, and I did too! I was actually free to ignore my very first objective (unlike the opening of LTTP) and just... set out and explore the land. Mind you, I couldn't even defend myself without a weapon at that point, but the game LET me do it, and it kept that up. The puzzles were a bit more hands-on as well, without the hints previous games were guilty of. The new version of "blind's hideout" even manged to have a whole new twist on that sort of story telling (as the game came out recently, I won't spoil how it goes, but they did a great job, even if that dungeon went too linear for my tastes to make the storytelling work). Now, they really came close, I loved how well the game was made and it's clear they want to return to the old days of more "open" exploration. However, it isn't without fault. I really don't like just "buying" my items, for example. It's just way more satisfying to actually find them. This is something they can fix. I also felt, as I hinted at earlier, that the dungeons themselves were a bit too "scripted". Not all of them had storylines going on like the one I mentioned, but they all are very "solve this, then go to this room, then solve this" scenarios. There's no real sense of being lost with all sorts of possible rooms to go to and all sorts of backtracking to see what you missed, until some of the later dungeons, that is. This is also something they can fix. However, all in all, Link Between Worlds is currently my favorite 3DS game.

Alright, having said all that, here's my ranking.

5. Link Between Worlds (it's an amazing new Zelda game, and in the future I'll probably end up ranking it higher)

4. Ocarina of Time (This game has moved all over my lists over the years, and is sure to move again, but I have to give credit to such an amazing game)

3. Majora's Mask (While the overworld was a bit small and gated, time itself felt like a place I could explore fully any way I wanted, and for that I love this game)

2. Link's Awakening (Still probably the best story in the series, and for all I said above, it was only the START of the trend, and not nearly so bad as it became by Twilight Princess. It is still an amazing game and I had it at the top of my list for a few years for a reason.)

1. Link to the Past (On repeated playthroughs and analysis, I just have to give this game the credit it deserves. The combat isn't as deep as later titles, and the story is certainly cliche, but the way it tells the story, the way it gives you that sense of exploration and freedom, and the way it ties that exploration into the puzzle design, all combine just so perfectly that it's become my favorite Zelda game all over again. Since Zelda is my favorite game series of all time, this also makes LTTP my favorite game of all time! It's probably going to stay there this time, but the next Zelda looks VERY promising.)

Edit: I wanted to add something. I go on and on about the sense of exploration and tying it together with the story, because that's what I felt was the best way to rank Zelda games. However, the sense of exploration is no the only reason I love Zelda. What ALL of the games succeed in doing so amazingly well is remove that barrier between interface and play. One of my favorite aspects of Zelda is that it feels like I'm actually interacting with the world around me. I didn't click on the item and rub it on the part of the screen I wanted to do a thing to, I DID the thing myself using the item. I didn't pick "fight" and swing my sword, I just SWUNG my sword! Even the worst of the Zelda games have always managed to keep that sense of actually doing things TO the world around you, of actually being that agent of change, and that means even the least loved of the Zelda games are still amazing experiences that stand above so very many other games. Twilight Princess isn't a bad game by any stretch, it's just not as completely amazing as certain other Zelda games. Had Twilight Princess been the first 3D Zelda game, we'd all have fell in love with it instantly. Even the DS Zelda games gave the sense of actually doing things, and every attempt at a novel interface, even when it doesn't really work too well, has been with exactly that goal in mind. Even Zelda II, being more of a straight action game, generally let you actually use most of your items and spells (usually in the form of altering how your sword, shield, and jump worked). The CDi games, with their myriad failings, are still "okay" action games, but they fail when it comes to that sense of interacting with the world. Compare them with Zelda II, and they come up short. This is noted most laughably when you fight the final boss and just sorta... "toss" an item in an arc at them which triggers a cut scene. It's not even an item that's exactly "tossable". That's just how you do it, and so you don't exactly feel like you did anything. Art design? Story? They were pretty terrible, but they weren't what made the CD-i games so bad. It was that.

A Black Falcon Wrote:Why would you even want to do dungeons out of order, though? Just because you can? Whatever... I've never done that, and won't be trying. That's not how it was designed! (Yes, I've always been one who makes sure to follow the rules of a board game as written and not make stuff up.)

Quote: Saying it's overrated carries a feeling with it that says it's meaningless, not as great as originally perceived.

Quote: It's only been surpassed because it was gutted and every ounce of it was used to build most everything else. You're looking at it incorrectly imo. Show me another entry in the Zelda series that has been as influential as LttP to the rest of its lineage

Quote:But LttP is an incredibly deep cut of industry shaping data that also influenced countless developers outside of Nintendo including art design, even to this day considering that 2-D is a respected modern format. There's games on Google play made from small development teams that straight up lifted LttP mechanics and that's not even getting in to the guts of why it's so much fun. There's only a few games in all of history that can claim that.

Quote: You're telling me there's another Zelda game that has surpassed that level of influence?

Quote:You seem very focused on disliking LttP, do you have a tattoo of Agahnim you regret?