FUCKERS!

[Geno]

DJ: Hey, Darunia! Jesus loves you! :)

Darunia: BLASPHEMY! Jesus isn't real! By royal Goron decree, I hereby ban all religions from the colony of Tendo City, an annexed territory of the sovereign nation of Daruniatopia, under the federal jurisdiction of our capital, Goron City, formerly of Hyrule until our secession back in 1999, effective immediately!

Weltall: You're banning religion? Kind of like China between 1949 and 1978? So you're a Communist now?

Lazy: I thought Darunia was a hairy Frenchman.

Darunia: SILENCE, PEASANTS! *punches Lazy in the gut*

Lazy: You hit like a girl!

Darunia: There is no God and there will be no pursuance of ignorance in the Goron Empire! Am I right, ABF?

ABF: Um... Darunia... behind you.

Darunia: Eh? *turns around*



"FUCKERS!"

Geno: Yeah! Super Mecha Death Christ 2000 B.C. Version 2.0 Beta, bitch!

SMDC2KBCV2.0B: FUCKERS! *begins blowing shit up while slowly approaching Darunia*

Darunia: I-I have no reason to be afraid! That thing isn't real and therefore cannot hurt me!

SMDC2KBCV2.0B: FUCKERS! *blasts Darunia into the sky*

Darunia: There's a scientific explanation for thiiiiiiiiiiiiiis! *falls into Death Mountain Crater, which subsequently erupts*

Weltall: Wow. Is he dead?

SMDC2KBCV2.0B: HE WILL BE BACK! UNTIL THEN... FUCKERS! FUCKERS! *rolls away while still blowing up random shit*

[Bahamut]

Actually, I self-identify as agnostic now.

I mean, Weltall does. He told me this in a conversation in which we engaged in dialogue because Weltall and I are definitely not the same person.

[Geno]

I figured you--I mean Weltall--weren't really all that religious anymore. Is anyone here? I figured everyone ranges from atheist to agnostic, disregarding Lazy's obsession with sacrificing virgins to a statue of Samuel L. Jackson.

[Darunia]

Weltall: You're banning religion? Kind of like China between 1949 and 1978? So you're a Communist now?

So... only communists are atheists...?


A
Forrest J. Ackerman
Douglas Adams
Phillip Adams
Brandy Alexandre
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Tariq Ali
Woody Allen
Shulamit Aloni
Thomas J. Altizer
Natalie Angier
Lance Armstrong
Liv Arnesen
Madison Arnold
Isaac Asimov
Peter William Atkins
B
Kevin Bacon
Russell Baker
J.G. Ballard
Iain M. Banks
Clive Barker
Dan Barker
MC Paul Barman
Dave Barry
Richard Bartle
Bill Bass
Matt Bellamy
Steve Benson
Ingmar Bergman
Pierre Berton
Matt Besser
Paul Bettany
Björk
Susan Blackmore
Bill Blass
Jim Bohanan
Sir Herman Bondi
Pierre Boulez
T. Coraghessan Boyle
Nathaniel Branden
Marlon Brando
Richard Branson
Berkeley Breathed
Julia Hartley Brewer
Marcus Brigstocke
Isaac Brock
Rodney Brooks
Andrew Brown
Derren Brown
Peter Buck
Gabriel Byrne
John Byrne
C
Dean Cameron
James Cameron
Mike Carey
George Carlin
John Carmack
Adam Carolla
John Carpenter
Asia Carrera
Fidel Castro
Stephen Chapman
Dov Charney
Vic Chesnutt
Noam Chomsky
Mohammed Choukri
Robin Christopher
C cont.
Chumbawamba
Jeremy Clarkson
Alexander Cockburn
Billy Connolly
John Conway
Alex Cox
Wayne Coyne
Francis Crick
David Cronenberg
David Cross
Alan Cumming
Justin Currie
D
Ron Dakron
Rodney Dangerfield
Julia Darling
Russell T Davies
Mark Jonathan Davis
William B. Davis
Richard Dawkins
Jeff Dee
Samuel R. Delany
Daniel Dennett
David Deutsch
Catherine Deveny
Ani DiFranco
Micky Dolenz
Amanda Donohoe
Phil Donahue
Natalie Dormer
Roddy Doyle
Marcus du Sautoy
E
Christopher Eccleston
Dean Edell
Jonathan Edwards
Paul Edwards
Greg Egan
Barbara Ehrenreich
Paul Ehrlich
Bret Easton Ellis
Harlan Ellison
Warren Ellis
William Empson
Garth Ennis
Brian Eno
Euhemerus
Hugh Everett
F
Oriana Fallaci
Diane Farr
David Feherty
Jules Feiffer
Larry Fessenden
Ludwig Andreas von Feuerbach
Richard Feynman
Harvey Fierstein
Bob Fingerman
Reginald Finley
Brian Flemming
Larry Flynt
Dario Fo
Dave Foley
Peter Fonda
James Forman
Jodie Foster
John Fowles
Robin Lane Fox
Stephen Fry
G
Noel Gallagher
G cont.
Janeane Garofalo
Bob Geldof
Jack Germond
Ricky Gervais
Prabhir Ghosh
David Gilmour
Ira Glass
James Gleick
Jean Luc Godard
Theo van Gogh
Al Goldstein
Mikhail Gorbachev
Nadine Gordimer
Michael Goudeau
Richard E. Grant
A. C. Grayling
Stephen Greenblatt
Susan Greenfield
Germaine Greer
Kathy Griffin
Rachel Griffiths
H
Joe Haldeman
Kathleen Hanna
Yip Harburg
Harry Harrison
Sam Harris
Nina Hartley
Bree Olson
Roy Hattersley
James A. Haught
Bill Hayden
Judith Hayes
Stan Hayes
Robert Heinlein
Nat Hentoff
Katharine Hepburn
Richard Herring
Paul Hester
Christopher Hitchens
Douglas Hofstadter
Jerry Holkins
Ted Honderich
General Choi Hong-Hi
Sidney Hook
Derek Humphry
I
Eddie Izzard
J
Penn Jillette
Billy Joel
Angelina Jolie
Kirk Jones
K
Wendy Kaminer
Alex Kapranos
Jonathan Katz
Dawna Kaufmann
Kawaljeet Kaur
Diane Keaton
Ken Keeler
Ludovic Kennedy
Kevin Kline
Skandar Keynes
Eli Khamarov
Kim Il-Sung
Florence King
Neil Kinnock
W. P. Kinsella
Michael Kinsley
Melvin Konner
K
Frank Kozik
Kramer
Paul Krassner
Ron Kuby
Milan Kundera
Paul Kurtz
L
Artie Lange
Ring Lardner Jr.
Hugh Laurie
Mr. Lavanam
Cloris Leachman
Richard Leakey
Alexander I. Lebed
Bruce Lee
Geddy Lee
Stewart Lee
Tom Lehrer
Mike Leigh
Stanislaw Lem
Vladimir Lenin
Gerda Lerner
Michael Lewis
Tom Leykis
James Lipton
Denis Loubet
H.P. Lovecraft
Arjen Lucassen
M
Heather Mac Donald
Norm Macdonald
Seth MacFarlane
Bill Maher
John Malkovich
Mike Malloy
'Manda
Barry Manilow
Shirley Manson
Mao Zedong
Michael Martin
Karl Marx
Nick Mason
Armistead Maupin
John McCarthy
Malachy McCourt
Evelyn McDonnell
Ian McEwan
Todd McFarlane
Montana McGlynn
Sir Ian McKellen
Alexander McQueen
Butterfly McQueen
Jonathan Meades
Antonio Mendoza
Stephen Merchant
Tom Metzger
Arthur Miller
Frank Miller
Jonathan Miller
Mike Mills
Tim Minchin
Marvin Minsky
Warren Mitchell
John Money
Hans Moravec
Desmond Morris
James Morrow
John Mortimer
M cont.
Markos 'Kos' Moulitsas Z
Frank Mullen
Cillian murphy
N
Taslima Nasrin
Ramendra Nath
Jawaharlal Nehru
Ted Nelson
Randy Newman
Mike Nichols
Jack Nicholson
Kai Nielsen
Oscar Niemeyer
Friedrich Nietzsche
Robert Nozick
Gary Numan
Ronald Numbers
O
Barack Obama Sr.
Bob Odenkirk
Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Patton Oswalt
P
Camille Paglia
Andy Partridge
Mark Pauline
Leonard Peikoff
Paul Pfalzner
Julia Phillips
Joaquin Phoenix
Ferdinand Piech
Steven Pinker
Brad Pitt
Neal Pollack
Sarah Polley
Katha Pollitt
Paula Poundstone
Vladimir Pozner
Terry Pratchett
Paul Provenza
Q
Robin Quivers
R
Daniel Radcliffe
Justin Raimondo
Ayn Rand
James Randi
Ray Romano
Ron Reagan Jr.
Carl Reiner
Rick Reynolds
Griff Rhys-Jones
Mordecai Richler
Christopher Ricks
Matt Ridley
Brian Ritchie
Brad Roberts
Chris Robinson
Gene Roddenberry
Richard Rodgers
Joe Rogan
Neil Rogers
Henry Rollins
Andy Rooney
Richard Rorty
Arundhati Roy
Jane Rule
Salman Rushdie
Douglas Rushkoff
Karen Russell
S
Oliver Sacks
Mona Sahlin
S cont.
Sandbox
Robert Sapolsky
Pamela Sargent
Max Sawicky
John Sayles
Tom Schulman
Eugenie Scott
Captain Sensible
Nick Seymour
Robert I. Sherman
Michael Shermer
Robert Silverberg
Sarah Silverman
Claude Simon
Simplot, J.R.
Joe Simpson
Slayer
J.J.C. Smart
Robert Smith (football)
George H. Smith
Robert Smith
Lee Smolin
Steven Soderbergh
Todd Solondz
Annika Sorenstam
George Soros
Joseph Stalin
Richard Stallman
Victor Stenger
Bruce Sterling
Howard Stern
J. Michael Straczynski
Ken Stringfellow
Julia Sweeney
Matthew Sweet
T
James Taranto
Teller
Studs Terkel
Louis Theroux
Pat Tillman
Tom Tomorrow
Tool
Linus Torvalds
Solomon Tulbure
Ted Turner
Bill Tytla
V
Eddie Vedder
Paul Verhoeven
Gore Vidal
Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
Sarah Vowell
W
Matt Wagner
Jimmy Wales
Annika Walter
Harry Waters
Roger Waters
James Watson
Peter Watts
Steven Weinberg
Gene Weingarten
Joss Whedon
Gene Wilder
Harland Williams
Sean Williams
Ted Williams
Ian Wilmut
Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine
W
Tom Wolfe
Lewis Wolpert
W cont.
Steve Wozniak
Bruce Wright
Y
Irvin D. Yalom
Z
Frank Zappa
Zarkov
Nick Zedd




Disclaimer: This list was supplied to me from a Google search though I assume it to be mostly accurate.

Furthermore:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/26/lib...tml?hpt=C2


http://proudatheists.wordpress.com/2009/...can-video/


Now then... all jokes aside... if you really want to start sparring over religion, I will gladly comply... I just don't want to destroy the quaint culture we all enjoy it... because once the gloves come off about religion... people get hurt.

[Fittisize]

Adam Carolla is an atheist?! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

[Bahamut]

Atheism is still ridiculous. It is the practice of disproving the unprovable. Atheists and fundamentalists are two sides of the same illogical coin.

Since the matter of ultimate beginnings is, at present, an inherently unsolvable mystery, I go with agnosticism.

[Darunia]

That's right, we have him, and we're not giving it back! And Jack Nicholson, Gene Roddenberry, and Ted Williams too! Bwahaha!

ATHEIST--AWAY!


*Flies away a la Superman*

[Darunia]

I subscribe to a particular breed of atheism:

The deity to which I proclaim non-existence is the Christian deity. I'm talking about the omnipotent, omniscient fellow who created the world 10,000 years ago, and fashioned women from men's ribs... the deity who is at the same time three separate entities encapsulated in one (Holy Trinity)... the deity to which the Abrahamic religions refer... that one.

Now, Bahamut, I see what you're saying. How can I, a mere organism, different from an amoeba and a fish only in that I'm more evolved, ever KNOW whether or not there are super-beings? And obviously, I cannot. But then again, would they be god? What is god, really? An atheist denies the existence of 'god', but is there a meaning for god beyond the narrow-minded dogmatic philosophies of the west, who created their own version of a god a mere couple thousand millennia ago? Could there be a third-party deity, yet totally unbeknownst to any on earth, who did create us and then took no further part in our lives? We will never know.

I cannot ever know more than that which I see with my sense, and deduct with my mind. (Even then, we open ourselves up to a whole nasty series of what-ifs, a la the Matrix... the Brain-in-a-pot theory, but I won't go there.)

WHAT I CAN SIT HERE and say though, fundamentally, is COGITO ERGO SUM, and that the deity particular to Christian theology does NOT exist.


The ball is in your court, monsignor.

[alien space marine]

I think most folk who identify themselves as atheists today are "agnostic atheists", Atheism and agnosticism have become interchangeable words.

[EdenMaster]

I subscribe to a particular breed of atheism:

The deity to which I proclaim non-existence is the Christian deity. I'm talking about the omnipotent, omniscient fellow who created the world 10,000 years ago, and fashioned women from men's ribs... the deity who is at the same time three separate entities encapsulated in one (Holy Trinity)... the deity to which the Abrahamic religions refer... that one.

Now, Bahamut, I see what you're saying. How can I, a mere organism, different from an amoeba and a fish only in that I'm more evolved, ever KNOW whether or not there are super-beings? And obviously, I cannot. But then again, would they be god? What is god, really? An atheist denies the existence of 'god', but is there a meaning for god beyond the narrow-minded dogmatic philosophies of the west, who created their own version of a god a mere couple thousand millennia ago? Could there be a third-party deity, yet totally unbeknownst to any on earth, who did create us and then took no further part in our lives? We will never know.

I cannot ever know more than that which I see with my sense, and deduct with my mind. (Even then, we open ourselves up to a whole nasty series of what-ifs, a la the Matrix... the Brain-in-a-pot theory, but I won't go there.)

WHAT I CAN SIT HERE and say though, fundamentally, is COGITO ERGO SUM, and that the deity particular to Christian theology does NOT exist.


The ball is in your court, monsignor.

What you described is closer to agnosticism than atheism.

[Weltall]

I think most folk who identify themselves as atheists today are "agnostic atheists", Atheism and agnosticism have become interchangeable words.

They are used interchangeably, but mistakenly so. Agnosticism is, fundamentally, "I don't know". Both viewpoints have validities and shortcomings. Atheism is "Definitely not", with little tolerance for compromise.

It's kind of silly to deny individual deities while allowing others credence, isn't it? I mean, I can't think of any creation myth that is even remotely scientific in nature. If anything, the Abrahamic faiths did a better job here than most: They left the details vague enough that debate still exists (whereas no one offers a serious argument favoring the idea of the world being hatched from a bird's egg or fell from a tree like some cosmic fruit, &tc.). They boned themselves by trying to be specific with the dates, but you can look at much of Genesis and, with some loose interpreting, liken it to an approximation of the Big Bang and subsequent events as they relate to our planet. God obviously didn't create Adam from dust as Genesis implies, but theories of abiogenesis have roots just as humble, don't they?

[Geno]

So... only communists are atheists...?


A
Forrest J. Ackerman
Douglas Adams
Phillip Adams
Brandy Alexandre
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Tariq Ali
Woody Allen
Shulamit Aloni
Thomas J. Altizer
Natalie Angier
Lance Armstrong
Liv Arnesen
Madison Arnold
Isaac Asimov
Peter William Atkins
B
Kevin Bacon
Russell Baker
J.G. Ballard
Iain M. Banks
Clive Barker
Dan Barker
MC Paul Barman
Dave Barry
Richard Bartle
Bill Bass
Matt Bellamy
Steve Benson
Ingmar Bergman
Pierre Berton
Matt Besser
Paul Bettany
Björk
Susan Blackmore
Bill Blass
Jim Bohanan
Sir Herman Bondi
Pierre Boulez
T. Coraghessan Boyle
Nathaniel Branden
Marlon Brando
Richard Branson
Berkeley Breathed
Julia Hartley Brewer
Marcus Brigstocke
Isaac Brock
Rodney Brooks
Andrew Brown
Derren Brown
Peter Buck
Gabriel Byrne
John Byrne
C
Dean Cameron
James Cameron
Mike Carey
George Carlin
John Carmack
Adam Carolla
John Carpenter
Asia Carrera
Fidel Castro
Stephen Chapman
Dov Charney
Vic Chesnutt
Noam Chomsky
Mohammed Choukri
Robin Christopher
C cont.
Chumbawamba
Jeremy Clarkson
Alexander Cockburn
Billy Connolly
John Conway
Alex Cox
Wayne Coyne
Francis Crick
David Cronenberg
David Cross
Alan Cumming
Justin Currie
D
Ron Dakron
Rodney Dangerfield
Julia Darling
Russell T Davies
Mark Jonathan Davis
William B. Davis
Richard Dawkins
Jeff Dee
Samuel R. Delany
Daniel Dennett
David Deutsch
Catherine Deveny
Ani DiFranco
Micky Dolenz
Amanda Donohoe
Phil Donahue
Natalie Dormer
Roddy Doyle
Marcus du Sautoy
E
Christopher Eccleston
Dean Edell
Jonathan Edwards
Paul Edwards
Greg Egan
Barbara Ehrenreich
Paul Ehrlich
Bret Easton Ellis
Harlan Ellison
Warren Ellis
William Empson
Garth Ennis
Brian Eno
Euhemerus
Hugh Everett
F
Oriana Fallaci
Diane Farr
David Feherty
Jules Feiffer
Larry Fessenden
Ludwig Andreas von Feuerbach
Richard Feynman
Harvey Fierstein
Bob Fingerman
Reginald Finley
Brian Flemming
Larry Flynt
Dario Fo
Dave Foley
Peter Fonda
James Forman
Jodie Foster
John Fowles
Robin Lane Fox
Stephen Fry
G
Noel Gallagher
G cont.
Janeane Garofalo
Bob Geldof
Jack Germond
Ricky Gervais
Prabhir Ghosh
David Gilmour
Ira Glass
James Gleick
Jean Luc Godard
Theo van Gogh
Al Goldstein
Mikhail Gorbachev
Nadine Gordimer
Michael Goudeau
Richard E. Grant
A. C. Grayling
Stephen Greenblatt
Susan Greenfield
Germaine Greer
Kathy Griffin
Rachel Griffiths
H
Joe Haldeman
Kathleen Hanna
Yip Harburg
Harry Harrison
Sam Harris
Nina Hartley
Bree Olson
Roy Hattersley
James A. Haught
Bill Hayden
Judith Hayes
Stan Hayes
Robert Heinlein
Nat Hentoff
Katharine Hepburn
Richard Herring
Paul Hester
Christopher Hitchens
Douglas Hofstadter
Jerry Holkins
Ted Honderich
General Choi Hong-Hi
Sidney Hook
Derek Humphry
I
Eddie Izzard
J
Penn Jillette
Billy Joel
Angelina Jolie
Kirk Jones
K
Wendy Kaminer
Alex Kapranos
Jonathan Katz
Dawna Kaufmann
Kawaljeet Kaur
Diane Keaton
Ken Keeler
Ludovic Kennedy
Kevin Kline
Skandar Keynes
Eli Khamarov
Kim Il-Sung
Florence King
Neil Kinnock
W. P. Kinsella
Michael Kinsley
Melvin Konner
K
Frank Kozik
Kramer
Paul Krassner
Ron Kuby
Milan Kundera
Paul Kurtz
L
Artie Lange
Ring Lardner Jr.
Hugh Laurie
Mr. Lavanam
Cloris Leachman
Richard Leakey
Alexander I. Lebed
Bruce Lee
Geddy Lee
Stewart Lee
Tom Lehrer
Mike Leigh
Stanislaw Lem
Vladimir Lenin
Gerda Lerner
Michael Lewis
Tom Leykis
James Lipton
Denis Loubet
H.P. Lovecraft
Arjen Lucassen
M
Heather Mac Donald
Norm Macdonald
Seth MacFarlane
Bill Maher
John Malkovich
Mike Malloy
'Manda
Barry Manilow
Shirley Manson
Mao Zedong
Michael Martin
Karl Marx
Nick Mason
Armistead Maupin
John McCarthy
Malachy McCourt
Evelyn McDonnell
Ian McEwan
Todd McFarlane
Montana McGlynn
Sir Ian McKellen
Alexander McQueen
Butterfly McQueen
Jonathan Meades
Antonio Mendoza
Stephen Merchant
Tom Metzger
Arthur Miller
Frank Miller
Jonathan Miller
Mike Mills
Tim Minchin
Marvin Minsky
Warren Mitchell
John Money
Hans Moravec
Desmond Morris
James Morrow
John Mortimer
M cont.
Markos 'Kos' Moulitsas Z
Frank Mullen
Cillian murphy
N
Taslima Nasrin
Ramendra Nath
Jawaharlal Nehru
Ted Nelson
Randy Newman
Mike Nichols
Jack Nicholson
Kai Nielsen
Oscar Niemeyer
Friedrich Nietzsche
Robert Nozick
Gary Numan
Ronald Numbers
O
Barack Obama Sr.
Bob Odenkirk
Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Patton Oswalt
P
Camille Paglia
Andy Partridge
Mark Pauline
Leonard Peikoff
Paul Pfalzner
Julia Phillips
Joaquin Phoenix
Ferdinand Piech
Steven Pinker
Brad Pitt
Neal Pollack
Sarah Polley
Katha Pollitt
Paula Poundstone
Vladimir Pozner
Terry Pratchett
Paul Provenza
Q
Robin Quivers
R
Daniel Radcliffe
Justin Raimondo
Ayn Rand
James Randi
Ray Romano
Ron Reagan Jr.
Carl Reiner
Rick Reynolds
Griff Rhys-Jones
Mordecai Richler
Christopher Ricks
Matt Ridley
Brian Ritchie
Brad Roberts
Chris Robinson
Gene Roddenberry
Richard Rodgers
Joe Rogan
Neil Rogers
Henry Rollins
Andy Rooney
Richard Rorty
Arundhati Roy
Jane Rule
Salman Rushdie
Douglas Rushkoff
Karen Russell
S
Oliver Sacks
Mona Sahlin
S cont.
Sandbox
Robert Sapolsky
Pamela Sargent
Max Sawicky
John Sayles
Tom Schulman
Eugenie Scott
Captain Sensible
Nick Seymour
Robert I. Sherman
Michael Shermer
Robert Silverberg
Sarah Silverman
Claude Simon
Simplot, J.R.
Joe Simpson
Slayer
J.J.C. Smart
Robert Smith (football)
George H. Smith
Robert Smith
Lee Smolin
Steven Soderbergh
Todd Solondz
Annika Sorenstam
George Soros
Joseph Stalin
Richard Stallman
Victor Stenger
Bruce Sterling
Howard Stern
J. Michael Straczynski
Ken Stringfellow
Julia Sweeney
Matthew Sweet
T
James Taranto
Teller
Studs Terkel
Louis Theroux
Pat Tillman
Tom Tomorrow
Tool
Linus Torvalds
Solomon Tulbure
Ted Turner
Bill Tytla
V
Eddie Vedder
Paul Verhoeven
Gore Vidal
Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
Sarah Vowell
W
Matt Wagner
Jimmy Wales
Annika Walter
Harry Waters
Roger Waters
James Watson
Peter Watts
Steven Weinberg
Gene Weingarten
Joss Whedon
Gene Wilder
Harland Williams
Sean Williams
Ted Williams
Ian Wilmut
Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine
W
Tom Wolfe
Lewis Wolpert
W cont.
Steve Wozniak
Bruce Wright
Y
Irvin D. Yalom
Z
Frank Zappa
Zarkov
Nick Zedd




Disclaimer: This list was supplied to me from a Google search though I assume it to be mostly accurate.

Furthermore:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/26/lib...tml?hpt=C2


http://proudatheists.wordpress.com/2009/...can-video/


Now then... all jokes aside... if you really want to start sparring over religion, I will gladly comply... I just don't want to destroy the quaint culture we all enjoy it... because once the gloves come off about religion... people get hurt.

I noticed a lot of Communists in that list (though to be fair, I assume you were just copying and pasting without any alteration).

Jack Nicholson is an atheist? Then how could he dance with the devil in the pale moon light? :FuckYou:



But in all seriousness, I wasn't trying to start a religious debate. At the same time, I knew the thread might spiral in that direction. I'm actually finding the current debate interesting, though, so carry on if you would like. :)

In 2003, I hated having my beliefs challenged. After having completed college, though, I like being forced to think. As such, I welcome religious debate openly.

The way I see it, agnosticism accepts that we don't know. Science does not fill in answers to the mysteries of the universe with copout answers such as "God did it," but it is equally a copout to conclude that there is no God because we cannot prove this. (The only way God can prove that He does exist is by showing Himself to humanity, and if He doesn't exist, then we just have to accept that there is pretty much no way to prove it.)

Granted, the possibility of God's existence should not be a serious consideration during the pursuit of knowledge. The problem with fundamentalists is that they're not satisfied with admitting that we simply don't know some things; they feel the need to come up with an answer, whether it's the right one or not, and so they simply say, "God did it." This problem is worsened whenever science proves a religious theory wrong as the fundamentalists will do anything in their power to shut the scientists up. The Earth is round. The Earth moves around the sun. We are not at the center of the universe, if there even is such a thing. And even today, evolution is still getting a lot of flack despite strong evidence supporting it. (I facepalm at every anti-evolution bumper sticker I see.)

If religion makes people feel better about losing a loved one or gives them the willpower to fight diseases or overcome life's hardships, then it's fine to believe. However, I have no tolerance for religious-based ignorance, especially when it leads to discrimination or impedes scientific (especially medical) progress (i.e. stem cell research).

[Darunia]

I noticed a lot of Communists in that list (though to be fair, I assume you were just copying and pasting without any alteration).

Do you mean Russian or Communist? I'm not going to go back through the list one-by-one to Wiki every name and find a communist... I am sure there are some, and I don't mind in the least if there are. Communist countries, go hand in hand with some of the greater revolutionary moments in world history (Revoltionary France was also atheistic.) These were great watershed moments in history that sought to totally rebuild and redirect humanity... they dreamt, as I do, of a humanity that functions on reason and science, not on superstition. While I am not a communist, I am a humanist... and unfortunately, humanity as a whole did not prove strong enough to work in an atheistic society. People need deities. Many people, either for lack of intellectual horsepower or out of fear of their own mortality, cannot and never will accept the idea that there is no afterlife. So? They cling to warm, fuzzy religious ideas.

But in all seriousness, I wasn't trying to start a religious debate. At the same time, I knew the thread might spiral in that direction. I'm actually finding the current debate interesting, though, so carry on if you would like.

/Nod

The way I see it, agnosticism accepts that we don't know. Science does not fill in answers to the mysteries of the universe with copout answers such as "God did it," but it is equally a copout to conclude that there is no God because we cannot prove this.

Stop right there. See my debate above: I am merely disproving the Abrahamic deity. I cannot sit here in my chair and proclaim the total absence of anything deity-like. But common, sensical and logical observation of the world around me CONCLUSIVELY, EMPIRICALLY, DEFINITIEVELY proves that the ABRAHAMIC DEITY does not, and has never existed. No more than Zeus or Athena.

If religion makes people feel better about losing a loved one or gives them the willpower to fight diseases or overcome life's hardships, then it's fine to believe. However, I have no tolerance for religious-based ignorance, especially when it leads to discrimination or impedes scientific (especially medical) progress (i.e. stem cell research).

As militant as I come off, I have reached this conclusion years ago. I love and spend a lot of time with my grandparents, and they're both devout Catholics. While I do from time to time get in a little dig at Grandma in good nature, I would never openly disavow their religion in front of them. At their age, what else does one have? But even in a large scope, I don't go around picking fights with Christians... although it would be fun, and every now and again when one gives challenge, I'll totally obliterate them in a debate (they always invariably retreat into the "well you can't disprove God" thing, or well where did the Big Bang come from? See? God must've done it."

On the whole, I used to dream of a fantastic society where humanity works hand-in-hand, shoulder-to-shoulder, a la Star Trek, for a great, bright future where religion and superstition are forgotten, and we all celebrate science and devote our resources to scientific endeavours to better humanity... like, increasing lifespan, driving back mortality rates, exploring the cosmos, and developing every single academic field to the fullest capacity.

Alas... so much for dreaming.

On the same note, I'm sure we've all seen the trends in the news of declining religious fervor in developed countries... increasing agnosticism. Many European countries like Iceland, France and the Nordic countries are majority agnostic... and they're doing fine. So, many there is hope? I don't know. If I had to bet, I'd say that in 100 years, in the western world, religion will be a far-right fringe cult. The lower classes may need it for a while longer, but the enlightened and patrician need not be encumbered by it.

[Weltall]

On the whole, I used to dream of a fantastic society where humanity works hand-in-hand, shoulder-to-shoulder, a la Star Trek, for a great, bright future where religion and superstition are forgotten, and we all celebrate science and devote our resources to scientific endeavours to better humanity... like, increasing lifespan, driving back mortality rates, exploring the cosmos, and developing every single academic field to the fullest capacity.

Who says these things are only dreams?

[Darunia]

Terminator 2 doomsday super intelligent computers isn't what I was getting at, either. :)

[Weltall]

You should read the book before dismissing it.

Believe me, I thought the whole idea was horseshit at first, too.

[Darunia]

AGAIN you misinterpret me. I'm saying, that's not the dream I used to have. That sounds dystopic. I'm not dismissing it. I'm saying, that's not the beautiful vision I enjoy.

[Weltall]

I don't really see how it's any different, save for the details. And, that it'll probably happen in our lifetimes.

Seriously, read the book, even if it's not exactly what you had in mind. Read it if for no reason other than to humor me. I sincerely think it'll strike a chord in you.

[etoven]

~runs screaming out of this thread...

[Geno]

On the whole, I used to dream of a fantastic society where humanity works hand-in-hand, shoulder-to-shoulder, a la Star Trek, for a great, bright future where religion and superstition are forgotten, and we all celebrate science and devote our resources to scientific endeavours to better humanity... like, increasing lifespan, driving back mortality rates, exploring the cosmos, and developing every single academic field to the fullest capacity.

Alas... so much for dreaming.

What logical, cynical person has not dreamt of this? Unfortunately, we live in a society that embraces the ignorance of centuries past.

[Weltall]

We do?

I always viewed it as a society which sometimes struggles to let go of the past, but which has done a remarkable job of progression overall.

[Geno]

No question society has made gradual progress over several millennia. I'd much rather live now than 100 years ago. Still, there are those who cling to primitive ideologies, and some such people make their way into positions of political power, and those people prevent us from forging ahead into newer, better modes of life. Well, maybe not prevent--they just slow us down. These people usually use religion as their reasoning for doing so. Perhaps it's not as big a problem as I make it sound, but still...

As an example, Alabama's governor recently had 200 state troopers raid a bingo house that's been around for years because gambling is illegal in the state of Alabama and Bob Riley (the governor) is not willing to compromise because (disregarding any ulterior motives he may have as I'm hearing in all these campaign commercials about him selling us out to Mississippi) gambling is immoral according to the Bible. Legalized gambling would allow the state government to collect taxes on legal bingo (our tax is 10% and we have tax on food, which I understand several states do not have); many immoral things are legal and it's each individual's decision what morals they choose to abide by and which ones to disregard (should we outlaw sex out of wedlock too?); and Bob Riley destroyed jobs in a time when jobs are already scarce when the legalization of gambling in Alabama could potentially create jobs. Simple progress towards an obviously better way of life is being impeded by one religious nutjob who somehow managed to find his way into a position of power.

Looking at the big picture, though, of course we as a society have made progress, often at the expense of our valued traditions. I guess what Darunia and I are describing is too idealistic to ever be real, a world in which the pursuit of knowledge holds precedence.

But wait... wouldn't this make Darunia more of a progressive than a conservative? :)



Pandora's Box has been opened.

[A Black Falcon]

You don't need to be religious to oppose gambling... I don't think it should be legal either, it's just a tax on poor and stupid people, essentially, who can't help it but waste what little money they have on things that won't get them anything. It's cruel...

It's really unfortunate that it seems to be spreading. Every few years there's another gambling thing on the ballot here, and while most have fortunately been defeated, one did pass and now there's a horsetrack in Bangor which has slot machines. There's at least one more referendum for a casino coming, and who knows how many more... I really hope nothing more passes. It's bad for everyone overall.

[Geno]

To be fair, perhaps that wasn't the best example. There are non-religious reasons to be opposed to gambling and that's not something I feel all that passionately about. It's just a current event in Alabama right now. I wouldn't mind some small-scale gambling in the state of Alabama (it's about the only state with no lotto), but I certainly wouldn't want my city looking like Vegas or anything.

What I don't like is when religion is used to impede real social and scientific progress. A better example of social progress is the acceptance of homosexuals. As for scientific progress, I already mentioned stem cell research. There's also still the issue of whether evolution should be taught in schools and whether it should be optional, with intelligent design as an alternative. The gambling issue isn't that big a deal to me.

[Weltall]

Y'know, it's not as if anyone puts a gun to anyone's head and forces them to buy a scratcher ticket or play a slot. Free will does exist, contrary to reports. I can tell you, having worked in a place where lotto was a large part of the business, most people, even the clearly poor ones, played the games simply because it was something to do. It was a hobby for most of them. I almost never came across anyone with the mentality that it was some kind of investment--being poor doesn't mean you're stupid. Hell, I used to see retired guys come in and play a hundred bucks worth a night simply because they had nothing better to do with their time and money, and when they won even a few thousand dollars, it was more a matter of satisfaction than excitement.

I gamble on NFL games periodically for the same reason. Sure, there's the chance that I could double my money, and I won't lie and say that I don't care about that, but the real reason I do it is because the games are far more exciting when I have a personal stake in the outcome, and I never bet more than I'm willing to lose.

Honestly, the only people I ever encountered who took the idea at face value were the people who played only because the jackpot had grown enormous and it enticed them into blowing five bucks on a longshot. That's not to say that I didn't come across some people who really did spend more money on that stuff than they should have been (usually they were the same people using foodstamp cards to buy milk), but on the whole, the people I witnessed tended to approach the whole concept pragmatically.

As I said, there are those who desperately cling to outmoded concepts. Thing is, those people have finite lifespans. Ever since the onset of the Industrial Revolution, progressivism has increased in every succeeding generation, and that's not a coincidence. You look back prior to those times, and you'll see only gradual change in social customs, political systems and (most importantly) technology. With the Industrial Revolution came the two most important elements of human advancement: the ability to spread information en masse to a literate population. Thus, the rate at which we advance, in all areas, grows exponentially, and the returns accelerate rather than diminish thanks to all the wonderful things computers can do. Information Technology was the driving force behind every major social event in the last several hundred years, be it American patriots or later, abolitionists distributing literature, the Civil Rights movement reaching everyone through the medium of television, or the countless processes driven by the Internet.

That's why there's all the reason in the world to be optimistic. Ignorance is largely bred by lack of exposure to information. Sure, there are some who retain their ignorance even with the capabilities at their disposal, but most people really aren't like that. An issue like gay marriage is being tested in many ways, for example, and it makes you think "fuck, why do people have to be so ignorant?". Thing is, twenty years ago, within all of our lifetimes, it wasn't considered, even by its staunchest supporters, to be a cause worth fighting for in any substantial manner, because in 1990, there was no chance whatsoever of gay marriage being legalized anywhere. Ten years ago, it was a far from certain thing, too. Yet, here in 2010, it's either legal, or the subject of serious discourse. In little of western civilization is the idea firmly shackled . . . and even then, their time will come.

Years ago, I had very different views on matters like this, so if you need a good example of how minds can change by exposure to information, I give you myself.

[Darunia]

But wait... wouldn't this make Darunia more of a progressive than a conservative?

I'm a conservative with many things. I'm FIERCELY anti-abortion, pro-personal-freedom, pro-small-government, anti-illegal-immigrant, to name a few.

My hometown is as we speak in jeopardy of becoming the first state in Massachusetts of having a casino thanks to underhanded Indians from Cape Cod throwing their financial weight around where it doesn't belong.

it's just a tax on poor and stupid people, essentially, who can't help it but waste what little money they have on things that won't get them anything. It's cruel...

That is EXACTLY how I feel! I've very often described it as a tax on poor people. And Weltall, your examples of veterans blowing hundreds of dollars on tickets doesn't support your stance at all. I have worked the counter in small town grocery stores... I have seen this first hand. I'll never forget this middle-aged woman... she had a definitive air of proletariat all about it... she looked tired, haggard, over-worked, frumpy... I knew she had a small, dumpy house down the road with several children because my sister was for a time friends with her daughter. I've seen their house, and it's not somewhere you want to be. I believe her mother worked cleaning dorm rooms and doing menial chores for spoiled rich brats at a private school down in Marion. Anyway, she'd come in there most nights, all haggard, puffing on cigarettes, and blow half her paycheck on lottery tickets. I'm sure she won some sometimes, but on the whole, chain addicts surely lose money on it. Even if she wins a million dollars (statistically nigh impossible) the government takes a huge chunk of it. The fact of the matter is that the lottery is wrong because it is, indeed, a tax on the poor. You don't see rich people playing it (normally). It's not a "game" as they describe it... the state, THE STATE OF ALL CHARITABLE, REPONSIBLE AND LOVING AUTHORITIES uses bright, shiny, colorful advertising and designs to trick simple people who dream of a better life, who dream of wealth and happiness, into "playing" these "games". They're not games. It's evil. It's a tax on the american dream. It should be illegal---at the very LEAST the US fucking government should NOT be the one manipulating it for profit. For every ticket they sell, you know they're profiting... its designed for profit. They calculate the amount of money that will go out, and the operate at a profit margin like any other corporation. And, of course, every store that sells tickets gets a healthy slice of the pie, too.

[Weltall]

The US government doesn't operate a lottery. State governments do.

Also, since you claim to be a proponent of personal freedom, why should you care? Even if this woman is being irresponsible with it (and I know a lot are), that's really their business, isn't it? Because, again: the lottery is entirely voluntary. If you want to criminalize it because some poor people are irresponsible, you should just take that thread of logic right to its destination and mandate that poor people should have their finances managed by someone more competent than themselves, so that they are never 'suckered' by evil products such as lottery tickets and cigarettes. Or video games. Or magazine subscriptions. Or DVDs. Or cable TV. Or anything else that constitutes unnecessary luxury of a constant investment for people who can't strictly afford it.

Besides, what's one more tax on the American Dream when we already have more than we can even count? I'd rather keep the lottery and decriminalize minor traffic violations, myself. But, of course, I'm a Virginian, and our state makes no bones about using its police force as tax collectors for transportation funding.

[A Black Falcon]

Because, Weltall, he's a right-wing Republican, not a conservative... they are not the same thing.

Republicans are mostly in favor of lotteries though, I think, so it is interesting that Darunia is opposed...

[Geno]

Those who would waste their money on lotto tickets could just as easily waste their money on, say, booze. The difference is that booze is more than just a mental addiction--it's an addictive substance--and it leads to more problems besides simply depleting one's wallet (though that is still very much a problem with alcoholism) and unlike a lotto ticket, a bottle of booze doesn't carry that small chance of winning back some of the money you just wasted. It's all about individual responsibility. With or without the lottery, people are very much capable of spending their money irresponsibly. I, for one, would rather taxes be lowered in some other area for the benefit of humanity in general than worry about some poor sap's gambling addiction. Also, of course rich people don't play the lottery; they don't need to.

[Darunia]

Because, Weltall, he's a right-wing Republican, not a conservative...

Wrong. I'm a moderate conservative who votes Republican. I am not a right-wing republican. My atheism and hatred of the rich moderate my values. I suppose I transcend all political spectrums. I straddle them all. But, I choose to identify as a moderate conservative. And so it is.

The US government doesn't operate a lottery. State governments do.

Granted. I know that... it was a slip of the mind and keyboard that erred there on my part.

Also, since you claim to be a proponent of personal freedom, why should you care?

Your argument seems to be that, if one is a proponent of personal freedom, I am unentitled to view things as wrong. I view the state-sanctioned lottery as wrong. Should people be allowed to use a state lottery if there exists one: YES. Should the state HAVE a state-sanctioned lottery: NO.

If you want to criminalize it because some poor people are irresponsible...

Hmm... criminalize...

*Darunia summons a lackey*

You, peon. Find the transcripts from this thread and show me where I said it should be criminalized. Go!

(Peon bows away.)

*Darunia whiles away an hour tapping his fingers and enjoying soft drinks.*

(Peon returns)

DARUNIA: And?

PEON: There is no record, m'lord, of you ever having suggested that it should be criminalized. Rather, what you said, or rather, implied, is that it is immoral.

(Darunia rubs his chin and resumes writing his post on TC.)

you should just take that thread of logic right to its destination and mandate that poor people should have their finances managed by someone more competent than themselves, so that they are never 'suckered' by evil products such as lottery tickets and cigarettes. Or video games. Or magazine subscriptions. Or DVDs. Or cable TV. Or anything else that constitutes unnecessary luxury of a constant investment for people who can't strictly afford it.

If there was a financially lucrative Massachusetts State Cigarette Commission that advertised smoking colorful cigarettes as playing a game, I would surely be on their case about it. Likewise with a Massachusetts States DVD Commission, or a Massachusetts States Magazine Subscriptions Commission. You need to see that I'm agains the idea of a government body influencing people into unhealthy habits it order to reap a profit. If the lottery was operated as a private venture, while I would still never endorse it, my angst would lift slightly. But governent-sponsored lottery is like government-sponsored, colorfully advertised liquor. (I am against that too, by the way.)

[Weltall]

But governent-sponsored lottery is like government-sponsored, colorfully advertised liquor. (I am against that too, by the way.)

Welcome to Virginia! State gubbmint operates all the liquor stores.

Because, Weltall, he's a right-wing Republican, not a conservative... they are not the same thing.

Yunno, that's really not fair. Have you been reading some of the things I post?

I identify as conservative on spending and defense, but in matters social, I've become very liberal. My inability to reconcile these differences usually keeps me from voting. The only voting I've done in years is to try to help prevent the Obama disaster, and that was just a waste of thirty minutes on a rainy day.

[A Black Falcon]

Wrong. I'm a moderate conservative who votes Republican. I am not a right-wing republican. My atheism and hatred of the rich moderate my values. I suppose I transcend all political spectrums. I straddle them all. But, I choose to identify as a moderate conservative. And so it is.

FIERCELY anti-abortion, pro-personal-freedom, pro-small-government, anti-illegal-immigrant, to name a few.

Anti-illegal-immigrant is not a moderate position... and for the most part nor is anti-abortion...

The pro personal freedom part though does sound more Libertarian; Republicans don't exactly care much about that beyond lip-service. But of course with the rise of the Tea Party movement, Libertarianism seems to be gaining ground in Republican circles... witness how Ron Paul of all people won the CPAC conference vote!

"Pro-small government" in theory while doing nothing of the sort in practice is, of course, Republican bread and butter. (Note that the size of government grew substantially, not shrank, under W. ... and despite more recent attempts for Republicans to distance themselves from him and such, sorry, at the time you were all behind him most of the way.)

[Darunia]

*Glances at ABF's post... sniffs*

DARUNIA: Do you smell that?"

GORON SENTRY: Sir?

DARUNIA: Sniff! Do you smell that? Come hither!

(Sentry approaches, and sniffs)

SENTRY: Ooof... yes I do, what is that, m'lord?

DARUNIA: That's the sound of socialist defecation.

SENTRY: How can you tell?

DARUNIA: I've smelt it before. Indeed, I smell it whenever a quasi-commie starts expending hot air. I smell it now.

(Note that the size of government grew substantially, not shrank, under W. ... and despite more recent attempts for Republicans to distance themselves from him and such, sorry, at the time you were all behind him most of the way.)

"at the time you were behind him all most of the way."

How you have managed to obtain a detailed history of my inner thoughts on politics for the past decade baffles me! But, you say it with such bravado that I dare not challenge you!

Hmm... so let's go over this logically.


ABF'S LAW OF POLITICAL RELATIVITY:

a.) DARUNIA IS CONSERVATIVE.

b.) GEORGE W. BUSH IS A REPUBLICAN.

c.) THEREFORE, DARUNIA IS A BUSHOPHILE.




Well, all's fair in love and politics.


ABF'S LAW OF POLITICAL RELATIVITY:

a.) ABF IS A DEMOCRAT.

b.) Andrew Johnson was a democrat.

c.)THEREFORE, ABF KILLS UNBORN FETUSES, IS ANARCHIST, AND A HOMOSEXUAL CONFEDERATE SLAVE-OWNING MINORITY.



To go over it again, ABF'S LAW OF POLITICAL RELATIVITY states that two people of opposing political factions can and by right should make unfounded assumptions about the other based upon the most popular stereotypes available at the time.

[Weltall]

Only the true hardcore Democrats will still admit loving Obama in 2013 the way everyone loved him in 2008.

I still don't understand why anyone ever thought he would be a good president. Political views completely aside: He is doing a terrible job. He had the popular mandate and legislative support to do almost anything he wanted, and all that's happened is things getting steadily worse on all fronts. I understand that Obama was elected primarily to be a symbolic figurehead rather than because he possessed any leadership qualities, experience, or political acumen, but still: if the foundation of your entire campaign is I'M NOT GEORGE W. BUSH, you should probably try doing things differently than George W. Bush did. He still blames everything on his predecessor, but at some point, he's going to have to step up and take responsibility.

[alien space marine]

Only the true hardcore Democrats will still admit loving Obama in 2013 the way everyone loved him in 2008.

I still don't understand why anyone ever thought he would be a good president. Political views completely aside: He is doing a terrible job. He had the popular mandate and legislative support to do almost anything he wanted, and all that's happened is things getting steadily worse on all fronts. I understand that Obama was elected primarily to be a symbolic figurehead rather than because he possessed any leadership qualities, experience, or political acumen, but still: if the foundation of your entire campaign is I'M NOT GEORGE W. BUSH, you should probably try doing things differently than George W. Bush did. He still blames everything on his predecessor, but at some point, he's going to have to step up and take responsibility.

Would things be any better with that senile Geriatrics case and Dan Quayle in a dress?

Do you think Hilary would have been more proactive?

Darunia, Being anti abortion is a usual position for a atheist, Unlike your conservative peers I presume you are pro condom and contraceptive?

would you permit abortion in the case of incest and rape, Horrible deformities and low viability?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xb5Q8wn9S84&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xb5Q8wn9S84&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Darunia]

Darunia, Being anti abortion is a usual position for a atheist, Unlike your conservative peers I presume you are pro condom and contraceptive?

I don't mind people using condoms.

would you permit abortion in the case of incest and rape, Horrible deformities and low viability?

Only when the mother's life is in danger. Never out of convenience. If the child is the product of rape, it is not the fault of the child. If the mother can't bear to live with the child, put it up for adoption. When we start picking and choosing who gets to live based on how healthy they are... well.. then you're a eugenicist nazi.

[alien space marine]

I don't mind people using condoms.




Only when the mother's life is in danger. Never out of convenience. If the child is the product of rape, it is not the fault of the child. If the mother can't bear to live with the child, put it up for adoption. When we start picking and choosing who gets to live based on how healthy they are... well.. then you're a eugenicist nazi.

I meant to say "unusual" for a atheist , I guess you already clued in to that.

[Darunia]

Yes I knew what you meant. I've been told this many times. Because I don't believe in god, I have to endorse the abortion of unborn children. I don't see the connection, but you aren't the first person to tell me this.

[alien space marine]

Yes I knew what you meant. I've been told this many times. Because I don't believe in god, I have to endorse the abortion of unborn children. I don't see the connection, but you aren't the first person to tell me this.

To me it is acceptable up until the third trimester, Since the unborn baby would reach viability and could survive on its own and could feel pain.

I held the same position you do several years ago when I had just underwent the decoversion process, It had taken me sometime to except the pro-choice position, You should study the gestational process of developing embryos.

[Fittisize]

Only when the mother's life is in danger. Never out of convenience. If the child is the product of rape, it is not the fault of the child. If the mother can't bear to live with the child, put it up for adoption. When we start picking and choosing who gets to live based on how healthy they are... well.. then you're a eugenicist nazi.

Victim blaming, classy.

EDIT: Good God what an awful thing to say, and everything else that's implied by that horrible misogynistic statement. Aborting a rape-induced pregnancy is a matter of "convenience"? And you justify your view by saying it's not the fault of the child? So whose fault is it, then?

[Darunia]

The fault of the rapist my good sir.


Allow me to explain it to you in means with which I can better illustrate.

CHUCK RAPES SUE.

SUE IS IMPREGNATED.

(Enter Little Chuck)

CHUCK GOES TO JAIL.

SUE: Eegads! Get this thing out of me!

(Sue goes to abortion clinic)

SUE: Take those forceps doc and remove this living, breathing organism, a human being in waiting, of my own flesh and blood, a human being with half my DNA, one that in all likelihood would live to enjoy a full, happy life regardless of the origins of his father, one that will in turn marry and have children, and one that over time will be the progenitor of until thousands more offspring! GET IT OUT OF ME!

(Doctor proceeds to remove unborn fetus with triceps (an actual procedure).)

DOC: There you go, ma'am. The unborn child is now defunct. Yes, I agree, if the poor child had known that his father was a rapist, he certainly would have wanted to be aborted. The child had no future and no right to live, given that his father attacked you. That'll be 99.95, cash or charge? Thanks! Have a nice day.


And when I say "convenience," I mean it.

Putting issues of rape aside, the vast VAST majority of abortions are done, no questions asked. Let's forget, this is a totally legal process. Life isn't sacred, it can be quantified, numericall added and subtracted, and it fits quite conveniently on one's health care bill... (if the Dems get their way.)

[Weltall]

SUE: Take those forceps doc and remove this living, breathing organism

How does that work?

[Darunia]

All fetuses are innately equipped with breathing apparati. They are used during gestation, and discarded before birthing.

[alien space marine]

The fault of the rapist my good sir.


Allow me to explain it to you in means with which I can better illustrate.

CHUCK RAPES SUE.

SUE IS IMPREGNATED.

(Enter Little Chuck)

CHUCK GOES TO JAIL.

SUE: Eegads! Get this thing out of me!

(Sue goes to abortion clinic)

SUE: Take those forceps doc and remove this living, breathing organism, a human being in waiting, of my own flesh and blood, a human being with half my DNA, one that in all likelihood would live to enjoy a full, happy life regardless of the origins of his father, one that will in turn marry and have children, and one that over time will be the progenitor of until thousands more offspring! GET IT OUT OF ME!

(Doctor proceeds to remove unborn fetus with triceps (an actual procedure).)

DOC: There you go, ma'am. The unborn child is now defunct. Yes, I agree, if the poor child had known that his father was a rapist, he certainly would have wanted to be aborted. The child had no future and no right to live, given that his father attacked you. That'll be 99.95, cash or charge? Thanks! Have a nice day.


And when I say "convenience," I mean it.

Putting issues of rape aside, the vast VAST majority of abortions are done, no questions asked. Let's forget, this is a totally legal process. Life isn't sacred, it can be quantified, numericall added and subtracted, and it fits quite conveniently on one's health care bill... (if the Dems get their way.)

That is not a baby



Not a baby



That is a baby

Would you force a prepubescent rape victim to carry a baby to term something that is quite dangerous?

[Darunia]

Would you force a prepubescent rape victim to carry a baby to term something that is quite dangerous?

Are the children of rapists innately dangerous for some reason?

And you're right, those pictures are not babies. But, they are life. The term MURDER applies to the termination of HUMAN LIFE, not just babies.

[EdenMaster]

I try to stay out of the abortion debate since no ground is ever gained and basically ends with both sides saying go to hell (or "you will go to hell", such as it were)

I'm inclined to agree with both fronts at times. I agree with ASM's "not a baby" example. If you throw away a lump of dough, a can of spaghetti sauce, and a bag of cheese, nobody is going to ask you why you're throwing away a pizza. There is a reason we have different words for "baby" and "fetus". There is a reason when a baby is born that it's not called 9 months old fresh out of the womb. There is a reason a woman is "expecting" instead of "has a child". A fetus is not a baby. Do not confuse the two.

However.

There are a lot of horrible mothers who should not be allowed to conceive. The woman on welfare expecting her 8th child should not be allowed to do so. The woman married to the convicted child molester should not be allowed to do so. The woman who shakes her baby to get it to stop crying and in turn destroys 80% of it's brain function. Some children really are better left unborn.

There is no clear-cut right answer. It's simply not possible.

[alien space marine]

Are the children of rapists innately dangerous for some reason?

And you're right, those pictures are not babies. But, they are life. The term MURDER applies to the termination of HUMAN LIFE, not just babies.

*The one in the middle is not even a human fetus*

If it is murder, Then you should be against fertility clinics since they store fertilized embryos in freezers and most never get used and eventually are so damaged from the cold that they become dead material.

Your sperm is human life and so is a egg, Should you be arrested for jerking off?

Should every miscarriage be investigated as a possible homicide?

Should every fetus be given a name, A social security number and be counted as citizens?

[Weltall]

To be honest, there's not much separating a six-month old baby from a fetus two weeks away from delivery. I personally find it silly to suggest that life begins at birth, because it's not physiologically true. Completely independent biological function begins at birth--excepting the fact that a human child is entirely dependent on caregivers until at least the age of two.

On the flip side of that, I have little desire to dictate what other people do with their bodies. I strongly dislike abortions that occur past the third trimester, because by then, not only is the fetus in an advanced stage of development, but by then, you've had six months to figure out what you wanted to do. By that point, you should go all the way.

Before that, when the fetus is little more than a multicellular clump, I have much less problem with it. If you abort six weeks into the pregnancy, it's really not any different in concept from clipping fingernails.

[Darunia]

*The one in the middle is not even a human fetus*

Then that's your mistake for putting it there. All fetuses across the whole sprectrum of terrestrial life look strikingly similar in the early stages.

If it is murder, Then you should be against fertility clinics since they store fertilized embryos in freezers and most never get used and eventually are so damaged from the cold that they become dead material.

I don't know enough about that process to comment, but my question would be, how are the embryo's gathered?

Your sperm is human life and so is a egg, Should you be arrested for jerking off?

If you want to draw a line between where life begins, it's there: semen and eggs, separate, are not life. Semen and eggs, combined, and incubated, and growing, is life.

Should every miscarriage be investigated as a possible homicide?

That would be up to the mother. If a pregnant woman is shoved and loses the child, then YES.

Should every fetus be given a name, A social security number and be counted as citizens?

When they are born.

[alien space marine]

Then that's your mistake for putting it there. All fetuses across the whole sprectrum of terrestrial life look strikingly similar in the early stages.



I don't know enough about that process to comment, but my question would be, how are the embryo's gathered?



If you want to draw a line between where life begins, it's there: semen and eggs, separate, are not life. Semen and eggs, combined, and incubated, and growing, is life.



That would be up to the mother. If a pregnant woman is shoved and loses the child, then YES.



When they are born.

1. no mistake

2. Invitro fertilization and people saving their reproductive material for future use, Typically because of cancer.

3. Sperm is life and so is the egg prior to being combined,when they are combined its just a lump of cells for the first 2 weeks.

4. What if she threw herself down the stairs intentionally or engaged in a dangerous activity while pregnant causing a miscarriage?

5. If your saying they are a human life, Why wait till they are born? Unless you admit they are not a person.