Since the war in Iraq I have thought alot of how much our military has degenerated into the pitiful thing it is now.
But the Americans have our people to thank for alot of thier greatest achievements , Such as the Apollo missions were many former Avro workers worked extensively on constructingthe rocket prepulsion systems.
Many of canadas acheivements such as the first Military aircraft capable of doing Moch 2.
(also first to use Delta wing design)
http://www.avroarrow.org/factualarrow.asp#ac
It is said the Arrow is infact still pretty much on par with modern Supersonic fighters including F-18 and F-22 in technology and capability , If the Arrow would have been put inservice it would still be in use today.
The canadian goverment started the project as we realized a serious weakness in our defenses as we had miles of Barren north land to defend from a Soviet incurision and missles and regular aircraft would not be capable of defending the artic so we needed to build a highspeed weapon to combat a soviet strike.
Sadly our but kissing PM decided to scrap the project since he feared resent from the U.S goverment as we would have had air superiority and of course mr defen gayer decided to make up some excuss that the program costed to much.
Sadly if we had not scraped the project undoubtingly Canada wouldnt be in such a feeble military state today, also we would also be leaders in aircraft deisgn which could have given us alot of prosperity and a boost in the almighty dollar.
Sadly it is just a memmory.
Most of what you mentioned were technological achievements, not military ones. I also find it ironic how everyone alos bashes us and downplays everything we do, yet then they always enjoy stealing credit and claiming to have helped us. I also like how the mighty, powerful bCanadians brilliantly brag about how they defeated the inept American attempt to conquer Canada in 1812. Cute.
Yes, it's quite amusing for them to brag about how they burned our capital when it was actually the British who did that. Canada wasn't even an independant country back then.
Sweet, they can do Moch 2??!!! Is that like Mach 2 with some coffee and chocolate sprinkled on top?
Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
Most of what you mentioned were technological achievements, not military ones. I also find it ironic how everyone alos bashes us and downplays everything we do, yet then they always enjoy stealing credit and claiming to have helped us. I also like how the mighty, powerful bCanadians brilliantly brag about how they defeated the inept American attempt to conquer Canada in 1812. Cute.
Arrow was a military vessel the first of its kind , designed all by canadians , geez we invented the telephone and even the earlier morse code.
God yes basketball!
If you americans cant seem to handel compition or rivalry maybe your the ones who eat too many sprinkled donuts.
As for the American Invasion , The brittish did come to our defense but infact they were defeated push back upward as Detroit was orginally a brittish fort untill then. Canada waisnt independant but it was a united Dominion under the commonwealth.Otherwise we could argue the U.S never beat Britain in the american revolution as you wornt really a nation either.
But hey atleast we can say the Canadian Militia was well prepared to handel the weather unlike another group we could mention.They also set some nice boobie traps just to piss you off.
Quote:Originally posted by alien space marine
Sadly our but kissing PM decided to scrap the project since he feared resent from the U.S goverment as we would have had air superiority and of course mr defen gayer decided to make up some excuss that the program costed to much.
Hmm wasn't that a conservative PM, I thought all of our military problems were the liberals fault, but come to think of it wasn't the military at it's finest under liberal administrations
Quote:Originally posted by Geno
Yes, it's quite amusing for them to brag about how they burned our capital when it was actually the British who did that. Canada wasn't even an independant country back then.
Ah, but it was the Canadians that burnt it down, The British Regulars and the Canadian milita captured washington but it was one of the Milita forces from York(Toronto) who burnt the whitehouse in reaction to the tourching of the Canadian Parliment in York
geez we invented the telephone and even the earlier morse code.
Are you for real? Alexander Graham invented the telephone; of Scottish decent, he invented it in America and had it patented here in 1876-1877, respectively. I don't know about "the earlier morse code".
God yes basketball!
Firstly, I hate basketball, and the addition of that to society is arguable; but again, and American invention of 1891 by Dr. James Naismith of Springfield, Massachusetts.
If you americans cant seem to handel compition or rivalry maybe your the ones who eat too many sprinkled donuts.
We don't know if we can handle competition or rivalry yet; if we ever get any, we'll let you know.
Ah, but it was the Canadians that burnt it down...
I spent some time trying to look that up, but failed. All resources point to Brits burning it. Prove me wrong.
Canadian troops were in all likelihood with the British when they attacked Washington... and I think that it is true that the reason they burned it was because of how we had burned the Canadian capitol earlier in the war...
And its also true that the National Anthem was written during the Battle of Baltimore (or Fort McHenry, if you prefer) when that invading force was stopped. :)
Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
[B]geez we invented the telephone and even the earlier morse code.
Are you for real? Alexander Graham invented the telephone; of Scottish decent, he invented it in America and had it patented here in 1876-1877, respectively. I don't know about "the earlier morse code".
God yes basketball!
Firstly, I hate basketball, and the addition of that to society is arguable; but again, and American invention of 1891 by Dr. James Naismith of Springfield, Massachusetts.
If you americans cant seem to handel compition or rivalry maybe your the ones who eat too many sprinkled donuts.
We don't know if we can handle competition or rivalry yet; if we ever get any, we'll let you know.
Ah, but it was the Canadians that burnt it down...
I spent some time trying to look that up, but failed. All resources point to Brits burning it. Prove me wrong. [/B]
1. Alexander Graham bell lived In nova scotia (new scotland) which is a canadian Province since it is right next to mine, Weither Alexander was born in scotland it is Irelevant he Imigrated to canada and built his inventions there.
The morse code was created in new found land though it waisnt part of canada back then, but it is now.
James Naismith may have been a american professeur working in Ontario canada university , he created basketball in canada and infact many of the basic rules were suggestions given by his canadian students.
All these are shown In canadian heritage commercials on the cbc.
As for burning the your goverment buildings , If I remeber canada was a brittish Dominion ,so when they say brittish burnt it they mean all of the brittish Commonwealth coalition.
Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
[B]Ah, but it was the Canadians that burnt it down...
I spent some time trying to look that up, but failed. All resources point to Brits burning it. Prove me wrong. [/B]
Canada was at the time a British colony so most of the resources you can acces probably would list it as the British, but I've read in countless social textbooks and seen at several museums that the exact regiment that torched the white house was a milita group from York
Bell imigrated from Scotland to Canada, he developed the phone in canada but tested it in the US(it may have been the other way around), the first long distance phone call was between two Canadian cities, and Bell's headquarters world headquarters were in Montreal until those US laws that don't allow a company to be to big forced their American divisions to be split at which point the headquarters of Bell became Bell Canada's headquarters and Bell was split into all those other companies like Northwest Bell etc.
You can see the Graham Bell Museum in Nova scotia.
For such a young and small country (population-wise), Canada does have a rather admirable military history. While I don't know whether Canadians burnt down the White House, whether they did or didn't doesn't take away from the other military feats Canadians did accomplish. The most brilliant example would probably be Michel de Salaberry's 1700 Canadian militiamen routing a 3000-man strong regular American army unit in an ambush near Chateauguay. It is true the British fought most battles during that war though, as population support was rather shaky. The French-Canadians weren't particularly supportive of their overlords (except for the "seigneurie", that is to say the nobility), and the newly-established English-Canadians were mostly Americans who had come to Canada because of the available land. Thus, the only true loyalists of the country were the French-Canadian seigneurs and the inhabitants of the Atlantic provinces (many of whom had fled the U.S. during the Revolution because of their fierce loyalty to the British crown).
Still, certain militia units did shine in battle, as I'm sure some did in the US also.
Whether Canada was independent or not is irrelevant, the Canadians who fought on the British side in the war of 1812 are the modern Canadians' ancestors just like those who fought on the American side are our modern-day Americans' ancestors.
As for the rest, Canadian infantry was also a force to be reckoned with during the first World War, being used as shock troops in the same way the Germans used their stormtroopers. Canada has as a nation fought in the Boer Wars, the first and second World Wars, the Korean War, and as ironic as it may seem sent over 110 000 men to fight for peace everywhere from Palestine to Cyprus to Bosnia and Rwanda.
The telephone: let's remember it's Alexander Graham Bell who invented it, not Canada nor America. People have a bad tendency of claiming their compatriots' achievements for themselves. As for where he lived, Bell split his time between Canada and the US; he said himself the telephone was conceived in Ontario and born in Massachussets.
A pioneer in the field of telecommunications, Alexander Graham Bell was born in 1847 in Edinburgh, Scotland. He moved to Ontario, and then to the United States, settling in Boston, before beginning his career as an inventor.
That's from here...
Basketball, a game that started with 18 men in a YMCA gymnasium in Springfield, Mass., has grown into a game that more than 300 million people play worldwide. The man who created this instantly successful sport was Dr. James Naismith. Under orders from Dr. Luther Gulick, head of Physical Education at the School for Christian Workers. Naismith had 14 days to create an indoor game that would provide an "athletic distraction" for a rowdy class through the brutal New England winter.
And that came from here...
And I just spent a half hour looking up who burnt the White House down, and at nearly every source it said "British" or "Royal Marines". No Canadians, no militia. Sorry--that sadistically evil honor isn't yours either.
Yeah, I was going to say... I sure thought that the telephone and basketball were invented in this country...
http://www.hoophall.com/history/naismith_untold.htm
He was born in Canada, but invented it in America...
As for Bell, that link Darunia posted says he was in Canada at some points but invented the telephone in America.
Bell lived in Nova scotia as he ran a School for the deaf there,
He probaily did create the first telephone line connection in the U.S . But the first telephone itself was created in canada.
Once again back to the white house defiling , N-man makes it pretty clear.
ASM...give it up. The phone and basketball are American. The White House was burned by Britain. Canada's lost all three arguments in this forum so far.
N-Man, I salute you're excellent counter argument. None-the-less, I shall now try to counter it.
For such a young and small country (population-wise), Canada does have a rather admirable military history. While I don't know whether Canadians burnt down the White House, whether they did or didn't doesn't take away from the other military feats Canadians did accomplish. The most brilliant example would probably be Michel de Salaberry's 1700 Canadian militiamen routing a 3000-man strong regular American army unit in an ambush near Chateauguay.
My research confirms this battle; my argument is that they were entrenched and well-fortified. In addition, they were not all militia. Under those circumstances, being fortified would almost guarantee victory to anyone.
Still, certain militia units did shine in battle, as I'm sure some did in the US also.
Whether Canada was independent or not is irrelevant, the Canadians who fought on the British side in the war of 1812 are the modern Canadians' ancestors just like those who fought on the American side are our modern-day Americans' ancestors.
To much extent you are right; but it does matter as these Canadians were under British command. Their country wasn't sovereign and didn't make the choice to enter the war. That'd be like me claiming glory for the Franks conquering Rome because my ancestors (eventually) were French, and in virtue of that beat Rome. Still, I see your point and it is credible.
As for the rest of your argument about the grand and glorious Canadian military machine; it's fine and dandy, but it's relative. Canada is a small nation of only 31,000,000; and it's yearly military budget is only $7.8 billion...that's 1.1% of it's yearly revenu. That may sound like a lot, but America's is $276 billion; 3.2% of our budget...almost thrice yours. That being said and done, your trying to compare glory to American is impossible; not neccessarily because we're a better people, but because our military is just infinitely superior simply by funding. You brag of a minute skirmish between 3,000 militia in the woods as being your greatest victory. The impact of that may or may not have deterred an American advance into Canada. I'd say ours was the Battle of Midway, wherein three American carriers sank and six Japanese carriers, and a slew of smaller warships. This enormous battle single-handedly annihilate the entire Japanese navy's effectiveness, and ensured an Allied victory in the Pacific. Compare the scale of the two. I could go on too, but suffice to say, however glorious Canada's military may be in scale, America's is superior because we jus kick more ass and have more money:p
Darunia, in the War of 1812 the Canadians did fight well... and while British troops did to a lot of the fighting, some of the battles in the northern front of the war involved Canadian troops... and they did well because that front was essentially a stalemate -- the Americans never succeeded in conquering Canada and the Canadians never succeeded in conquering any of America for any length of time...
As for scale, we've always been bigger, but the farther back you go the less that difference meants...
Of course, it's hardly possible to compare the military history of a 300-million-man nation born in the baptism of fire that is a revolution to a more-or-less-willing alliance of peoples that counts a tenth of that population. Neither English nor French Canadians have ever been extremely warlike, either. Yet it remains true that Canada has always given a good show in each of its conflicts, to the measure of its ability.
That Midway remark can be taken either way, I think. If the Americans lose at Midway, do the Japanese necessarily invade the mainland? Is America doomed? Doubtful. However, if US Army had managed to bypass de Salaberry's ambush in the war of 1812, Canada's future could very well have been in jeopardy. Everything is relative.
And do remember that while the United States were fighting the Teikoku Kaigun in the Pacific, Canada was nearly single-handedly feeding Great Britain's war effort. And also getting slaughtered on the beaches of France thanks to incompetent leadership. Let's not get into that. *cough* At any rate, the first part certainly counts... a less glamour job, but someone's got to do it.
All in all, it would be blatant nationalism to claim Canada has a more decorated military history than the U.S., but it's still no reason to forget it. As for the present, which is a thousand times more important than past glories, I believe there has been quite a bit of laisser-aller in the Canadian military. Our country is currently unable to efficiently participate in the joint defense of North America, and this will likely keep on going until a new government is elected. The Liberals have ignored the Armed Forces ever since their rise to power, which is among many things a factor that is disgruntling voters around the country. I myself am leaning towards voting for the Canadian Alliance which is the furthest right party we have in Canada. Ironically, if you look at them from an international perspective they are still left of centre.
At any rate, I digress, that's that. I don't think our countries need unhealthy competition and bragging right now, but rather mutual respect and cooperation on the global level.
*steps down from podium*
Quote:Originally posted by N-Man
I myself am leaning towards voting for the Canadian Alliance which is the furthest right party we have in Canada. Ironically, if you look at them from an international perspective they are still left of centre.
Lol like the Alliance will ever win a seat in Quebec
You're right about the left on an intrenational perspective thing. They are the most right wing major party in Canada and are still more right wing than the Republicans, the Conservative party being the other major right wing party is more left wing than the Democrats, except for the evil Alberta chapter which is really just an extension of the Canadian Alliance, I fear they may be just as right wing as teh republicans... sadley
I'll agree with that N-Man, on the stipulations that the United States' is indeed superior to that of Canada. I don't like how you still downplayed the pivotal Battle of Midway...which is blatantly false, and everyone confirms that it was the turning point in the Pacific war.
*End of American-Canadian War*
No ones says that canada is better then the U.S , I am simpily meant we have made some accomplishments.
to denie what our fore fathers achieved would be the same as denying even the american revolution.
Perhaps basketball is a joint invention between canada and the U.S .The Telephone is another matter.
Canada armed forces were responsible for the first push into normandy , It was bloody and indeed a masacre . My grand mother has a Nazi flag in her basement taken from Normandy as a trophy by my grand father during ww2 his comanders were killed in battle and he had taken command and lead the remaining forces to victory liberating a village in Normandy.
My other grandfather also fought for the U.S in the pacific agiast
Japan ,(Dual citizenship)
Well thats very nice; you should be proud of your grandfathers. My maternal grandfather was in the navy; a paternal uncle parachuted over Normandy...lots of nice stories from there.
On another note, I refuse to let you take even partial credit for basketball. I couldn't care less about basketball itself, but I've proven time and time again that it was conclusively American. When you tender similar proof that it is joint Canadian, you'll get the credit...until then, IT'S AMERICAN AND AMERICAN ALONE.
:shake:
Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
On another note, I refuse to let you take even partial credit for basketball. I couldn't care less about basketball itself, but I've proven time and time again that it was conclusively American. When you tender similar proof that it is joint Canadian, you'll get the credit...until then, IT'S AMERICAN AND AMERICAN ALONE.
Did you even read the site that you gave us a link to earlier, did you happen to read the birthplace that was on that page
here is another link, click on faq on this page
http://collections.ic.gc.ca/naismith/
the .gc.ca shows that it is a government website and I have a tendency to trust their infromation more
Always have to have the last word eh, pseudo-frenchie? :stupid:
edit: durr, get outta the way neo :D
The guy who invented basketball was born in Canada.
However, he invented it in Massachusetts... which makes it pretty clearly American...
Um, BECAUSE IT WAS INVENTED IN AMERICA?
Laugh-out-loud. I hardly think that the birthplace of the inventor decides what nationality an invention belongs to. I knew he was born in Canada; that inconsequential...it was invented in American, and he lived in America all the while it was in development.
To prove that, Marie Curie (and her husband) are credited with discovering radium. At first glance that's a French name, so for arguments sake, the French discovered radium. Yet she was or Polish descendance. Does that mean that the Poles discovered Radium? She became French, married a Frenchman, lived in France, spoke French, had children in France...soo....who gets credit for radium, Poland or France?
Same for basketball.
Uhhh....neither. No country gets credit for a single person's achievments.
Are all of Wayne Gretzky's records American? Heck no. But wait! He achieved and broke most of his records in America, lived in America! Or how about those achievments belong to Canada?? After all, he was born and raised in Canada, and also broke many records in Canada. So what country do they belong too?
NEITHER. They are Wayne Gretzky's. Stop trying to be proud of other peoples achievments who happened to live on the same land mass as you.
I shall not, as he is a Canadian realizing how futile it is to salvage Canada's quote-un-quote "glorious" history. If this skirmish were going better for Canada then America, I promis you he would not have just written that.
I disagree. Certain people keep their convictions à travers vents et tempêtes, unlike what you may have observed from your own personal experience. I agree with what Fittisize says and have defended it before even knowing that this was a "debate" (childish on top of what).
Attempting to make someone else's achievements his own is the pathetic crutch of a man lacking confidence in himself, as are other aspects of nationalism, religion and what-have-you.
Do remember that America does not make a better man, a better man makes America. Same goes for any other country, community or random political entity.
Some of what you speak is true, and some of it is just opinion dilluded with bigger words, which make all biased opinions truthful (mine too.)
On the other hand, the telephone and basketball stay american.:cuss:
Ahem...when the Griz were in the NBA, every year them and the Raptors played for the Naismith cup....those are two Canadian teams. Why wouldn't American teams play for it, if basektball is American?
Off topic, Mike Weir became the first person to win a major PGA event that was from Canada, my fav. land mass. Congrats to him.
Why don't we just say they are inventions invented in America by people with some Canadian connections... its not correct to say that either one owns it fully. If the person who invented basketball had stayed in Canada he probably wouldn't have invented it... but if an American had invented a sport it wouldn't be Basketball...
ABF is on America's side in a debate. If this isn't the final sign of the apocalypse, I dunno what is :p
Well, I am an American...
Oh, so to be American you have to be a conservative and be blindly in favor of everything we do? Huh?
Quote:Canada waisnt independant but it was a united Dominion under the commonwealth.Otherwise we could argue the U.S never beat Britain in the american revolution as you wornt really a nation either.
I'll give you that point.
But hey, there's one thing we have to give the Canadians credit for: at least they don't think they invented the internet.
Le internet.
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Oh, so to be American you have to be a conservative and be blindly in favor of everything we do? Huh?
From what I've seen over the years the answer is yes
The conservatives sure think so anyway...
That's about the gist of it. Now shut up and go away; this is a Canada thread. If you want to bash Conservatives, go to a political thread.
So how about them Canadians, 'eh...? Hehehe... what are they all ABOOT anyway??
I think Canada wants to support America in the war on Iraq. They're a bit late though. I mean, sheesh, how long does it take to ship two tanks overseas? :p
To anyone offended by the above statement... I'm just kidding. Ah screw it... :shake:
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Oh, so to be American you have to be a conservative and be blindly in favor of everything we do? Huh?
Well, if you're liberal and blindly opposed to everything America does, then I think you're living on the wrong continent. If you want to live in a decadant socialist utopia, Europe beckons you with open arms... The rest of us can enjoy the capitalist powerhouse that is the United States of America.
I think both canadian and americans should stop steriotyping each other, Not all americans are warmongers or not all canadians are anti-american.
It would be the same as saying every american 100% agrees with George Bush decisions or every canadian 100% agrees Jean chreitiens decisions.
I think booing the american national Anthem and especially harrasing 10 year old peewee hockey players from boston is way out of line,
So is the owners of Pappa johns pizza who canceled millions of dollars worth of canadian atlantic sea food due to canada stance on Iraq.(texas bitch ceo)
The booing of the canadian anthem after the freindly fire incident at a knicks ,raptors game back in 2002.
I think we should just put this crap asside and rebuild our close freindship.
I have nothing against Canada, really. Some of my friends are Canadian, and besides, Canada has been one of our best allies for a very long time. France is a different story. :S
surpisingly you have france to thank for your independence as their reinforcements garanteed your victory agiast brittain.