Tendo City

I gotta say I'm a little disappointed myself... and it's not the graphics. It just doesn't seem like a Zelda game, especially with the sailing... I miss Hyrule Field... and all the other recurring elements of the Zelda series that aren't here :(

Dudes, SPOLIER TAGS!

I'll put them in. Keep in mind any new topic made in TC is posted on the MAIN PAGE, so even if you don't click the topic you see it.

Diddo, Weltall. That ocean thing was weird...fun, but NOT in a Zelda sense. The dungeons were just HORRIBLE! They should've maybe had one giant mainland. At any rate, I sincerely hope to see the green fields and mountains of Hyrule again. Preferably not celshaded.

Thanks for covering me with the spoiler tags, EM...I'd put them here if I knew the coding for them.

S'ok, I just havent finished it yet and kind of got worried when it was the top story on the main page. I did my best to cover your stuff up without reading it, so if I covered anything which isn't really a spoiler, feel free to bring it back.

Oh, and for future reference, the code is (spoiler) if you replace these )( with these ][. I don't blame you for not knowing, I had to ask ABF because I couldn't remember either :D.

And I wasn't completely sure if it was [s ] or [spoiler ]... can't it be added to the button list there?

I hope you're right, OB1...but the ending wasn't at all vague about it. The old King stays behind under the ocean. Link and Zelda go up to the ocean to stay. I was hoping that the ocean would recede, and old Hyrule would be restored...a nice, happy ending akin to OoT...alas, no. I felt that the dungeons were bland, empty and not as compelling as OoT. Remember how mysterious and cool the Forest Temple was...with that awesome music? Or the Spirit Temple...those were dungeons that BEGGED to be explored, and they were fun to! WW was a painfully big disappointment to me. I no longer expect only perfect games from Zelda; it wasn't terrible, but it just felt all wrong.

That's Barinade, Darunia, not Barimold...

Uh... Darunia? You do know that most of the bosses in OoT weren't original, right? And I counted at least one boss from Link's Awaikening in Wind Waker.

Um, they may have been inspired by 2d bosses but the move to 3d changes them a lot.. and none were identical to the 2d bosses like how Link's Awakening copied some like the Moldorm... or Agahnim as one of the forms of the Shadow...

The only boss I liked in WW was the one in the Tower of the Gods...he wasn't original, being just like Bongo Bongo (who himself was cool), but he's presented well...almost in a technical environment...and that music is cool, too!

We all know that the coolest Zelda boss in modern times was Odolwa, though...what with that jungle get up and them cool dance moves.

Um, no. Odolwa had nothing on Bongo Bongo... I think I liked the second (ice level) boss in MM more than him too, and several from OoT though I can't remember Odolwa very well...

The bosses in WW look much cooler than the bosses in any previous Zelda game. But the lack of challenge hurts things.

This Zelda game sucked pretty hard. I don't know how IGN could give it a 9 something. If you ask me, no challenge - easier than Zelda 5 by alot, not a whole lot of interaction (ok, so its better than Zelda 1's interaction, but nothing comapred to MM), its terrible game to call Zelda in overall acheivement !!! Interesting concept of sailing around, just not very well done. This game is like a typical 3rd party game - average.. and yet it took Nintendo this long to make ?

Comeon... I know Aonuma can do better than this. He created killer labryinths in MM, an awesome living world as well. What the hell happened here ?! He like just choked and the worst thing is Mr. Miyamoto let it pass as a Zelda game...

I agree with almost everything you said. The sailing topic was genius, but doesn't belong in a Zelda game. The dungeons were just plain horrible in MM...and I can't put my finger on why. They were neither too long nor too short, but they just weren't fun. The bosses were fair, but none was very original. The music was medicore for a Zelda game. The biggest shock of all is how they used so few enemies; seriously! Have you ever really thought about it? They use those pig guards in EVERY DUNGEON; they only have what, a dozen or so enemies in the whole game? OoT seemed to have sloughs of original baddies in every dungeon...very disappointing.

You guys should make a crazy people club. Both of you hate Metroid Prime and Wind Waker, two of the best games to come out in a long time. N_A also hated the GBA Castlevanias and Metroid Fusion.

I don't hate Wind Waker; it was a very fun game, and well worth the money. On that note, it wasn't as good as MM or OoT; and etc...the same reasons I just wrote. Metroid...I also wouldn't say hate, but I don't really like it either. I'm struggling to beat Metroid and SMS right now just so that they'll be forever behind me and I can move on.

*tsk tsk tsk*

Why force yourself to beat them now if you aren't having fun? That doesn't make sense...

No, it doesn't.

When I get stuck, frusterated, or bored with a game I just stop playing it and play something else... probably a big part of why some games take me so long to finish, but I don't mind... I'm not in a hurry to beat games (and given how long it usually takes me, that's a good thing...).

Well yea; I do that too...which is why it took me well over a year to beat Rogue Leader, and I still havent beaten Luigi...and I got that at launch. I force myself to beat as many games as possible because, if not, what the hell good are they? In fact, sadly (noo-PATHETICALLY--) the only real game...that I've enjoyed in the GC at all so far...has been REMAKE!!!!:bang:

But there are so many NGC games better than RE... MP, ED, TWW, OoT/MQ, RL, SSBM, some more...

All of those games are several times better than both RE games. But hey, he's entitled to his own (stupid :D ) opinion.

yeah, he can think whatever he wants... I just don't understand the logic behind it... I mean, Eternal Darkness is several orders of magnitude better than any RE game IMO...

Indeed.

My logic is simple in this case:

If its not challenging, its no fun, because games are supposed to have some kind of challenge. Last I checked, games involved some kind of competition, aka a challenge, which by definition means challenge is all part of the fun. Wind Waker lacks challenge, therefore its not all that great. If its a game that takes you by the hand and walks you through like a little kid, it probably had its challenge level reduced from its original potential to sell the retards or adults who don't have much time to sit and accept a challenge or most likely to sell to idiots who don't like to think because they are a vast majority of people. Doesn't necessarily make it a bad game, but doesn't make it great either. Hence Zelda WW and Metroid 4 were not exceptional games. I'm sure Nintendo could have done ALOT better with them and blown me away but they didn't. Very disappointing. Zelda WW was about as challenging as FF7... fit for a 3 year old.

If its a rehash, its probably redundent gameplay I don't need to play again. A difference however does exist when when a game series uses a framework but implements it in a fresh way every time, such as Zelda. Castelvania and RE do NOT reinvent the way the present their framework every game. Its just the same system with different maps. Not worth replaying. You seen it once you seen it all. I'd rather spend time doing some constructive things like leisure reading.

I'd hardly call MP short or easy in any sense of the terms...

Did someone say MP was short in this discussion ?

No, but it was mentioned as boring, repetitive, and some other things in another thread (I think)... and it was mentioned that both you and Darunia disliked both MP and TWW so I didn't know if you meant both there...

What was wrong with Metroid?

MP isn't by any stretch of the imagination short or easy. I also don't appreciate people misconstruing my calling the game repetitive and boring with calling it too hard...I didn't say it was too hard.

General consensus on WW since the first shots were that it was cel shaded have been disappointment. It was not as good as OoT or MM, but IT WAS A GOOD GAME! OB1 is galvonizing everything I say against me.

Quote: All of those games are several times better than both RE games. But hey, he's entitled to his own (stupid ) opinion.

Bother RE games, which two are you referring to, there's four of them. And as for my opinion being stupid: fuck off.

Now N_A is calling Metroid Fusion easy? That was far more difficult than any N64 game I ever played, no doubt about it.

If Wind Waker's bosses were more challenging then it would be just as difficult as OoT and MM. And you were expecting there to be as many sidequests in WW as there were in MM? If they did that then there would be even fewer dungeons in the game and a much smaller overworld. MM can be finished in days if you just skip past all of the sidequests and go straight through the four dungeons. It was the amount of sidquests in the game that gave it its longevity. WW took a bit of MM and a bit of OoT, so that there were many more sidequests than there were in OoT but not as many as MM, and more dungeons than MM but less than OoT. If the dungeons in WW were easier than OoT's and MM's then I would be pretty dissapointed, but thankfully that wasn't the case.

But who am I to tell N_A what to like? He can be as bitter and disgruntled as he likes, I don't care. I'll enjoy these awesome games while you hate them for some stupid little reason (like hating Metroid Prime for not playing like Half-Life). Your loss.

Darunia, the two new ones of course... the others are just ports and don't really count... and you're dodging the question. :)

Oh, and if MP had controlled like Half-Life it wouldn't have played nearly as well as it does.

It seems to me N_A has this very immature and trasnsparent attempt to look mature by being as judgemental as possible. Everything's a rehash, or too easy. These are ancient arguments he is convinced he invented. Sheesh, people have been saying games are "too easy these days" (as though they are above playing a nice easy game now and again) since the SNES and Genesis! I have some words of advice. Trying too hard to act mature is a sign of immaturity. It's what kids do.

Quote: And you were expecting there to be as many sidequests in WW as there were in MM? If they did that then there would be even fewer dungeons in the game and a much smaller overworld.

How do you figure? They've had eternity to develop this game, and they no longer suffer the memory constraints of cramming the game into a cart? I'd think they'd have enough space on a GC dvd to put a bazillion-times-larger gamer, including more dungeons of greaty calibre and more mini quests.

ABF, if your question was "whats wrong with Metroid", I answered it again if you read carefully... it was long and drawn-out; boring at times. The levels are very vast and repetitive, and I don't fancy having to kill 5 flying pirates each time I reenter a certain room, and they're always getting harder to kill.

How do I figure? Because the game was made from scratch in two years, not an eternity as you so ignorantly suggested. Including all of the side quests the game is just about as long as OoT.

Quote:Originally posted by Dark Jaguar
It seems to me N_A has this very immature and trasnsparent attempt to look mature by being as judgemental as possible. Everything's a rehash, or too easy. These are ancient arguments he is convinced he invented. Sheesh, people have been saying games are "too easy these days" (as though they are above playing a nice easy game now and again) since the SNES and Genesis! I have some words of advice. Trying too hard to act mature is a sign of immaturity. It's what kids do.

So you insinuate that you are actually more mature than I am by making your post, stating that you can presume to teach me a lesson in life, making negative judgemental statements like I make negative judgemental statements ? The irony of making a judgement on character and my arguments... I hope you will soon realize that everything you do in practical life is judgement based.

I'm going to be harsh and judgemental as I please. I will give praise where it is deserved.

AFB... no you're mixing MP with MF. I thought MF was too linear and too short. I thought MP was well done and pretty damned challenging except I never liked the control scheme. Didn't kill the game, but I didn't feel it really helped the game. Oh well, Metroid Prime was cool none the less. I don't know where you people come down with your misquotes and exagerated statements that I absolutely hated MP.

Btw, OB1, without finishing the sidequests, you could finish MM in DAYS, if you meant LONG DAYS. And thats why this game is awesome. It takes a lot of thinking and exploring to figure out the puzzles in each of those labryinths. And I don't understand how you can call MM's bosses on the same level as WW or OOT ? OOT was slightly more difficult than WW, but honestly, did anyone here actually die from a WW boss, or even experience near death tension ? I remember that fish guy and those worms in MM were pretty challenging bosses, draining perfect life and nearly 6 bottles full of fairies. Thats not to mention I think one of the sidequests is necessary, at least some part of it is, and you have to figure out how it fits together and such.

And a comment on the labryinths. Do you actually honestly believe any of the ones in WW were as hard as say the Ikana Tower or the Water Palace in MM ?

But hey, if you want to take a spiteful attitude, I can also tell you, its up to you to make up delusional things like WW dungeons were just as hard as MM to force yourself to like a game just because it has Nintendo's Zelda brand on it. I'm not going to lie to myself and say a certain game is tough, when I found it quite easy, or a certain game had good control, when I felt it could have been alot better, or certain concept is new, when it was obviously done before.

I didn't get to the Ikana Tower. Couldn't take the immense frusteration of that game long enough to get that far... I gave up in Ikana Canyon before getting to the dungeon.

Oh, and I found OoT hard... it did take me a month, and I died 80 times (not as many as my first Zelda game (I died well over a hundred times the first time i beat Link's Awakening), but a lot...

But it wasn't challenge of beating dungeons or completing tasks that was the problem. I like to take games slowly... not hurrying through them at all... and MM does not allow for you to play like that. You must hurry from point A to point B all the time... and if you can't do it fast enough, oop! You ran out of time and have to start it from scratch! What fun! I LOVE how it makes you either do things over or hurry as fast as you can (often forcing me to use FAQ's... I had to use them very extensively to finish the dungeons...) through these environments that are so great otherwise!

Oh, and those dungeons. It didn't have a decent save system in them. You pretty much had to do the whole dungeon in one try... and that try had a strict timelimit even with the time doubler thing... I didn't enjoy using FAQs, but it was better than the alternative of starting dungeons over from scratch, which I would have had to do multiple times otherwise...

And redoing things I've already done is the farthest thing from fun I can think of.

Combine that with the really terrible save system and you've got one of the most frusterating games released in years.

Well I can understand that the challenge can be fustrating as you said, because it definitely fustrated me as I pried and prodded to solve puzzles, but it was that kind of challenge that made that game damned cool - a kind of challenge, not to mention a beatifully put together world. And I keep saying, once you slow down time, theres plenty of time to walk from point A to B. You get a few hours of running around before time is up. It was all part of the challenge as I saw it. Part of that challenge was to know how to design your approach to the labryinth to make sure that when you return you know how to attack it properly and efficiently.

Anybody remember that gekko that was inside that big gel thing ? Oh man, he was a mini boss and was harder than anything in WW.

Quote:Well I can understand that the challenge can be fustrating as you said, because it definitely fustrated me as I pried and prodded to solve puzzles, but it was that kind of challenge that made that game damned cool - a kind of challenge, not to mention a beatifully put together world. And I keep saying, once you slow down time, theres plenty of time to walk from point A to B. You get a few hours of running around before time is up. It was all part of the challenge as I saw it. Part of that challenge was to know how to design your approach to the labryinth to make sure that when you return you know how to attack it properly and efficiently.

I guess that other people just didn't hate all the hurrying, repeating tasks (that REALLY got to me), hurrying, not being able to really explore that great world because of how you are always on a time limit...

Maybe other people play through games faster and didn't mind as much or something, but I did, a lot...

I finally quit when the frustration was just too much... which happened to be in that well in Ikana Canyon, where you give items to skeletons and zombies and stuff. Stupid thing! You have to learn what all the guys want, go get what they want, come back, run out of time, start over... I quit in the first room because I looked at the FAQ and saw what I'd have to do and it was just too much annoyance...

And I haven't gone back since.

Quote:Btw, OB1, without finishing the sidequests, you could finish MM in DAYS, if you meant LONG DAYS. And thats why this game is awesome. It takes a lot of thinking and exploring to figure out the puzzles in each of those labryinths.

No I mean regular days. MM is very short if you skip past the side quests. I beat WW in seven days and beat MM in less time not including the sidequests. Including the sidequests it's about as long as WW.

Quote:And I don't understand how you can call MM's bosses on the same level as WW or OOT ?

I never once said that. I said that the dungeons are as difficult as the ones in MM and OoT. The bosses were insanely easy.

Quote:OOT was slightly more difficult than WW, but honestly, did anyone here actually die from a WW boss, or even experience near death tension ? I remember that fish guy and those worms in MM were pretty challenging bosses, draining perfect life and nearly 6 bottles full of fairies. Thats not to mention I think one of the sidequests is necessary, at least some part of it is, and you have to figure out how it fits together and such.

I never came near death while fighting the bosses, but the bosses in MM are nothing compared to the ones in Oracle of Seasons. Yet I still like MM more than the Oracle games.

Quote:And a comment on the labryinths. Do you actually honestly believe any of the ones in WW were as hard as say the Ikana Tower or the Water Palace in MM ?

Oh yes.

When it comes to puzzles, sometimes it's a matter of what your mind is best lent towards. Different people are better with certain puzzles than others. I myself found Master Quest and , now that I think about it, OOT in general to have very easy puzzles, but lazy for instance did not. On the other hand, I have been getting stumped very often in WW. Now it may be that Wind Waker is just harder, but seeing as how others here have been stumped by OOT/MQ but found WW easier, I think the more logical explanation is just the difference in puzzle solving abilities between people. Wind Waker's puzzles are indeed quite tough if you ask me, but then again, the monsters are very easy... Fortunatly, that's okay, as I know many a person who enjoys just some relaxing brain stumpers rather than having to be concerned about combat all the time. To be honest, I'd like to see some new games that don't emphasize quick button action like fighting and such, and in fact might not even have any battles or quick action events at all, and are just puzzle fests where you can take your sweet time. I enjoy those kinds of games every now and then.

Yeah it took me a little longer to finish WW's actual game too because of all the useless sailing and scavenger hunt. Warping didn't help much than beating MM's actual dungeons - because MM is mostly about the labryinths, but the entirity of MM took me at least 2 weeks because I didn't skip the sidequests. MM didn't have a lot of running across endless passages of uneventfulness and a scavenger hunt scheme to force you to go back and forth.

WW labryinths hard as MM labryinths ? You lie... freaking, the entire Ikana tower had like twice the rooms and puzzles of all WW labryinths combined. They all had to be put together one side up and then upside down. Most of the puzzles weren't immediately apparent. Trying to beat some of the mininbosses in MM took enough time for me beat all of WW's uninspired labryinths. Hell, finding entrance to each of MM's labryinths were kind of puzzles of their own. It wasn't entirely apparent as to how to gain entrance to any of the palaces, particularly the ice one with the big Goron and the quest you had to solve to get the necessary things to get in. Ikana was another one tough one to enter. Gaining access to the water palace was a whole adventure of its own, anywhere from figuring out whats going on, to going into those murky seas, finding those strange eels, going into that pirate fortress, figuring that whole thing out, then entering a palace that was huge and had to be at least twice the size of an WW labryinth, full of odd waterworks and tubes, and a boss that is one of the toughest Zelda bosses ever.

Let me ask you another honest question. Did you find all those quests and adventures in MM more entertaining than sailing around rather boring sea in WW ?

On the other hand, WW was very staightforward and in your face puzzles. Evertying in WW was basically go into room, find switch on other side of room, stand on it, open up door/chest to get passage/key or put an object on it. Then you apply the same to get map, compass, item, big key, kill easy boss. I found flying that little Deku guy like a helicopter the most challenging and fustrating part of the entire game.

The Oracle games were well done too, hats off to the guys at Capcom for actually pulling off 2 awesome games - that were amazingly not rehashes.

OB1, you're not convincing anyone as to the difficulty of Zelda WW and its uninspired labryinths. I ask you to make a narrative that challenge of what you think is the toughest WW labryinth or quest, and I'll compare it to the narrative of the quest involved to get into and through Ikana, or the Water palace in MM.

I know for that all my friends are lamenting the lack of challenge of WW. So does all the reviews online. Compared to MM, which I banged my head on wall and pulled hair, and for the less patient player - fustrated them to death. Again, you're not convincing anyone WW had anything more inspiring or noteworthy than previous Zelda games that makes it top notch stuff. It was original in graphics, and thats it.