Tendo City

Every time I say it I feel like I'm vomiting letters.

Well put! For that matter, the word "blog" sounds like the verb one would use to describe when their mind takes a dump. It also accurately describes what a blog is most of the time.

Also well put!

http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/...ric_within

That's me all over!

I don't understand why you two have problems with those words...

Because they are a disgrace to the rest of the English language.

No more than any other two or three words.

No no, most of the other words sound fine. "Shmup" just sounds retarded.

No other single term specifically defines the subgenre, though.

Just use side scrolling shooter, like I said. It says it's a shooter, and that it side scrolls. What else does that?

Side-scrolling shooter? That doesn't really include vertical-scrolling shooters, I'd say, and that's three words (or more) versus one...

Um, it doesn't? I didn't say horizontal, just like... from the side. Isn't that what that means? I mean SSS should work fine, and it doesn't hurt my brain to see it.

"Shmup"

Side-view means horizontal... how is forward-moving (top-down) "side"?

And don't say "it's the top side" because while that's true, "side view" is never used to describe the top side as far as I know. :)

I thought it meant you're seeing it from the side.

Well yes, horizontal scrolling generally means seeing it from the side... what do you mean?

Scrolling shooter.

Not horizontal I mean... never mind.

"Scrollling shooter" works even better.

Getting back on topic, new Fire Emblem song is win.

They should translate that. I guess it's in Latin now (helter skelter?). So uh, do most people who don't visit that site just not get to know what it means or will they have something in game?

It's really the one thing I find doesn't get translated nearly enough in games. Songs.

That's a good point, it's like they think that you don't care -- that either removing or not translating the song is just fine. I want the song there, and if it's not replaced with an English song, subtitled... Mystical Ninja 64 did this right. (Goemon's Great Adventure had the intro and ending in subtitled Japanese, which was great, but Konami removed the opening song (not from the intro, but from a before-you-press-start reel that was removed from the US version) and the voiced Impact intro scenes and song. It's odd, because the Impact intro cutscenes and song were in Mystical Ninja 64, complete with subtitles, but in the second game they cut them out... I don't know why. Given the fully-voiced-in-Japanese game introduction and conclusion it wasn't to get rid of the Japanese speech from the game...)

On a less related note Konami of America also removed on-cart saving from all of its American games. Did you know that the Japanese versions of Mystical Ninja 64, Goemon's Great Adventure, Castlevania, Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness, and Hybrid Heaven have on-cart saving while in the US (and Europe) they all require memory cards? Cheapskates...

Why would they translate the lyrics to English? It's just fine the way it is. In Latin.

I didn't expect it to be rerecorded. I just want subtitles... during combat... covering the bottom part of the screen. Okay but at least they should have the translation in the music playback menu.

Man, you guys always find something to complain about. It's not like the lyrics are somehow important or insightful that we need to know what they mean.

I bet you must have really hated the final battle in Final Fantasy 7.

Quote:Why would they translate the lyrics to English? It's just fine the way it is. In Latin.

Subtitles are certainly my preference. I was just saying that a re-recorded song is another option; it can be done pretty well. And yes, it is annoying when something has an untranslated song... anime intros on Cartoon Network never have subtitles for the songs that are left in Japanese, for instance, and it's pretty annoying...

A Black Falcon Wrote:Subtitles are certainly my preference. I was just saying that a re-recorded song is another option; it can be done pretty well. And yes, it is annoying when something has an untranslated song... anime intros on Cartoon Network never have subtitles for the songs that are left in Japanese, for instance, and it's pretty annoying...

Subtitles...in a fighting game.

What is wrong with you? What happened when you were young that made you the way you are?

It's in Latin because Latin sounds cool. Before this very day the song, to our knowledge, had NO lyrics. In ANY language we could understand. Why is it different now?

Besides that, did you read the translated lyrics on the Dojo?

Quote:Fire Emblem, companions walk
The endless path together.

In the wavering shadow of spite,
Our home is faced by the oncoming spear,
Engulfed in flames.

I keep that unforgettable day in my heart
And now rise up together with my companions.

Fire Emblem, our bond shall be never broken.

We hold fast to protect tomorrow
And the one who awaits our return.

Fire Emblem, light gathers on the flag we unfurl.

Fire Emblem, we gaze upon the multitude of stars,
Gripping our blades.

If we do not bring light to the darkness in these lands,
The shooting stars will soar over a wasteland.

Fire Emblem, on whom does the morning sun shine
As she climbs over the edge of battle?

They're pretty damn cheesy. I prefer to NOT understand them. My least favorite stage in Melee was Donkey Kong's waterfall stage, because it actually had lyrics to it, and I think that's distracting. It's different when it's another language though. You hear the song, and it can be in the background, but you're not taking away from the game itself to comprehend what the song is saying. You might not realize you are, but you are. In the back of your mind, you're processing the spoken words of the song as one more piece of input that you don't need to be focused on.

At least that's how I see it.

And, as mentioned earlier, Latin sounds freaking cool.

What? Soul Calibur II had subtitles for the pre and post battle text, if you chose Japanese text (and, yes, in Japanese games the Japanese speech/songs usually are better... things are usually best in their original language.)... that was really, really awesome after so many years of SNK and Capcom games with voiced Japanese pre and post battle speech that was never translated... you know they're saying something, which if you understand might say something about the character, but you have no idea what it is... :(

As for this FE song, I have no problem with it being in Latin, but it should be subtitled.

Great Rumbler Wrote:Man, you guys always find something to complain about. It's not like the lyrics are somehow important or insightful that we need to know what they mean.

I bet you must have really hated the final battle in Final Fantasy 7.

Oh please of course we're going to want this or that little thing touched up. We want the best possible experience and make a note of certain things.

What, do you play Superman 64 and say "well I can't complain, ever, better to just accept what I have".

That said, I don't "hate" this. This is a completely emotionless "note" I'm making, a little "it would be nice if" thing. I loved the opening of FF8 and the "Safer Sephiroth" battle music (worst name for a final form ever). I'm just saying I like to understand things.

Also, it's one thing to see subtitles for going in and leaving a battle but I have to agree with EM on this one. Subtitles for the music, showing the entire battle, are not a good idea. I just think a lyric sheet should be provided somewhere in the menu.

Oh yeah, I also agree about those anime cartoons that don't subtitle their Japanese music. There are worse things than that though. I've seen shows where they close in on some obviously important document written in Japanese but they don't translate what it says, so you just end up saying "well, what am I supposed to get from that?".

Quote:Oh yeah, I also agree about those anime cartoons that don't subtitle their Japanese music. There are worse things than that though. I've seen shows where they close in on some obviously important document written in Japanese but they don't translate what it says, so you just end up saying "well, what am I supposed to get from that?".

That's what's good about fansubs: They translate everything. Official releases don't. As you say, in addition to the songs (where at least in DVD editions you can get subtitles that say what's being said), signs and such are virtually never translated... :(

Quote:Also, it's one thing to see subtitles for going in and leaving a battle but I have to agree with EM on this one. Subtitles for the music, showing the entire battle, are not a good idea. I just think a lyric sheet should be provided somewhere in the menu.

It depends on how much the song is tied into the gameplay, I guess. For instance the Neo-Geo game Power Instinct Matrimelee has vocal Japanese songs in the stage backgrounds, and the game's really enhanced if you read the translations off them because they are quite funny and fit the stages well... they should have included translations. Of course, they never translate those fight opening and ending speeches, so expecting THAT would be ridiculous (and on that note, SNK is infamously horrible at translation... SNKglish is almost a whole different language... :D), but it'd be better for sure.

Quote:As for this FE song, I have no problem with it being in Latin, but it should be subtitled.

No. It shouldn't.

Quote:signs and such are virtually never translated...

I've got quite a few anime DVDs that do.

A Black Falcon Wrote:It depends on how much the song is tied into the gameplay, I guess.

That being not at all. in this case.

And you know damn well that it's different than SCII. They subtitled spoken dialogue before the fight began. you didn't see subtitles saying "oof!" or "take this!" all through the battle did you? Or translating the japanese song lyrics for you? Man, you just make no sense sometimes.

Fansub?

Rereading, I notice someone actually thinks the lyrics are lame. WHAT? They are awesome! The very core of human inspiration!

Quote:No. It shouldn't.

Them saying "it's fine that you have no idea what's being said" is not acceptable... how could you possibly NOT want the stuff translated unless you don't care at all about the plot or characters?

Quote:I've got quite a few anime DVDs that do.

I haven't seen many that do... a few, but not many. As I said, for that stuff fansubs are much more reliable...

Quote:That being not at all. in this case.

And you know damn well that it's different than SCII. They subtitled spoken dialogue before the fight began. you didn't see subtitles saying "oof!" or "take this!" all through the battle did you? Or translating the japanese song lyrics for you? Man, you just make no sense sometimes.

Actually, all games should have a "subtitle everything" option for hearing-impaired people, but other than that, those random mid-battle expressions aren't as important, they don't actually mean much outside of the move or event that just happened... I see your point, though, and yes, it would be nice if for things like fighting game moves (which are of course often left in Japanese) they would at lest provide translations so you know what the name of the move MEANS... they don't necesarially have to subtitle it every time, but list the translation somewhere at least. But a song... that you want translated as you're hearing it, because it's longer and more complex...

A Black Falcon Wrote:Them saying "it's fine that you have no idea what's being said" is not acceptable... how could you possibly NOT want the stuff translated unless you don't care at all about the plot or characters?

Actually, I am okay with not knowing what they mean. There is a reason it's called <i>background</i> music. It's not meant to be the thing your focusing on.

You're really stretching here, ABF. Read those Fire Emblem lyrics. Now tell me if knowing those lyrics, being the Fire Emblem fan that I know you are, means you know more about the game, plot, and the characters. Of course not.

<i>Background</i> music.

I must know everything, so I wouldn't mind if the song was subtitled when you played it in sound test. That would be cool. In fact I think Soul Calibur does exactly that with in-combat voices. I think if you go into a character profile and check all their voice samples, it translates them all when you play them. Aside from the fact that I had to pick the "extra character" I wanted instead of being able to have them all in one version, that's one of those touches that really puts SC2 on my best game ever list. It's the little things that really pull together a good game. I don't think it's a good idea to subtitle during battle though.

Also, GREY FOX!

Quote:I must know everything, so I wouldn't mind if the song was subtitled when you played it in sound test. That would be cool. In fact I think Soul Calibur does exactly that with in-combat voices. I think if you go into a character profile and check all their voice samples, it translates them all when you play them. Aside from the fact that I had to pick the "extra character" I wanted instead of being able to have them all in one version, that's one of those touches that really puts SC2 on my best game ever list. It's the little things that really pull together a good game. I don't think it's a good idea to subtitle during battle though.

You're right, in the sound test in Soul Calibur games they have a voice section where you can play back all of the things a character can say, with translations of what they're saying. So they do translate voices in a separate place... and FE, like most 3d fighting games, doesn't really have named special moves, so there isn't the move names issue either. On this issue the Soul Calibur series does quite well... I have the usual issues with Soul Calibur world/character-design wise (re: my "JRPGs" thread), of course, but on this issue it does quite well. If only SNK and Capcom had done anything remotely approaching that with their old fighting games... :(

Quote:Actually, I am okay with not knowing what they mean. There is a reason it's called background music. It's not meant to be the thing your focusing on.

You're really stretching here, ABF. Read those Fire Emblem lyrics. Now tell me if knowing those lyrics, being the Fire Emblem fan that I know you are, means you know more about the game, plot, and the characters. Of course not.

I absolutely disagree, as I said. Just because it's a background music song it doesn't mean that it's any less worth knowing... I'm not stretching at all.

Another thing I like about Soul Calibur is they actually tell you what the heck's going on in the world you find yourself in. Unlike King of Fighter, you actually have access to the frickin' plotline.

Ingame, you mean? Quite true... :)

It does make the blatant historical inaccuracies and inventions that they freely mix in more obvious, but even so, it's better than most on the issue, for sure. Plus the plot isn't as overly complex as KOF's is...

Plotlines in fighting games? What is this madness?

Wanting to know the translation for a foreign language song is not my problem here. If I'm curious as to what the song I'm listening to really means, chances are I can find it on GameFAQs or elsewhere. Having it IN GAME, while you are PLAYING, is lunacy. The fact that you would want a Latin songs English translation while playing a fighting game is positively baffling.

Is music important? Yes. I'll even say very. But do you know what's even more important? Fox just grabbed a PokeBall! Peach has a Hammer! The Acid is rising on Brinstar! Ganondorf is charging Warlock Punch! There are 10 seconds left and you're a point behind and your enemy is at 150%!

I cannot imagine playing Melee (or Brawl, in time) and focusing on anything else but the fight before me. The music, graphics, and sound effects are all there and I know they are there but they are all in the BACKGROUND. The fighting is in the FOREGROUND. Both elements come together to make the full experience, and NOTHING in the background should in any way compete for my attention with what is in the foreground.

I don't care if they're repeatedly telling me to "Fuck off" in various ways. I wouldn't even care if I KNEW that's what they were saying. IT'S NOT IMPORTANT.

*ABF Auto-reply*

<i>Yuh-huh.</i>

Remember those bonus songs in Wario Ware GC? The ones that were in untranslated Japanese with Japanese text? They almost completely lost meaning because you didn't know what was being said (unless you do as you say and look up the text at GameFAQs and even then it's not the same...)... seriously, how hard would subtitling them have been?

As for a song in a fighting game, having a separate mode with song translations, like the speech translations in the Soul Calibur games, would be acceptable, but the closer the translations are tied to their actual presentation the better.

Quote:Plotlines in fighting games? What is this madness?

They all have one of some kind... and a few of them even try to make some vague kind of sense. :D

A Black Falcon Wrote:Remember those bonus songs in Wario Ware GC? The ones that were in untranslated Japanese with Japanese text? They almost completely lost meaning because you didn't know what was being said (unless you do as you say and look up the text at GameFAQs and even then it's not the same...)... seriously, how hard would subtitling them have been?

You're right. I have missed the deep, spiritual meaning behind the opus tale that is Wario Ware. I can only pray I can ever play it again without weeping at what could have been.

Quote:As for a song in a fighting game, having a separate mode with song translations, like the speech translations in the Soul Calibur games, would be acceptable, but the closer the translations are tied to their actual presentation the better.

Lunacy.

A translation mode for the 20 or so people like you who <i>must</i> know the songs meanings to enjoy the game is fine. Having it ON SCREEN during a FAST PACED FIGHTING GAME. How does the very idea not make you itch?

A Black Falcon Wrote:Ingame, you mean? Quite true... :)

It does make the blatant historical inaccuracies and inventions that they freely mix in more obvious, but even so, it's better than most on the issue, for sure. Plus the plot isn't as overly complex as KOF's is...

Um, they never said that the game was historically accurate. In fact I'm pretty sure that's what you call "historical fantasy". I recently got this game, Jeanne D'arc. It is INSPIRED by history but that's about it. You begin to notice something amiss when the lead lady has to kill orcs, and that's Soul Calibur. I mean there's a giant enchanted devil sword in the game.

I'm all for historical accuracy when the developer has stated in advance they are going for realism. However, SC NEVER STATED THAT. The world is a total fiction. It is INTENDED that you consider it a completely seperate reality from the "real world", with quite possibly a totally different future. When there are wild lizard men running around and alien inferno creatures, it isn't our world any more. It isn't supposed to be "set" in our past. Rather, elements FROM our past are "set" in that world instead. They aren't "adding to" history. They are adding some history TO their own story. Taking cool stuff from our world and sticking it in their own imagined one. And really, that is a KIND of story to tell, and you can't just say "don't do that kind of story". There's a place for historical fantasy and I actually like it.

That said, no ABF, as much as I too would like the songs translated, I know that there's no place for it during the actual battle. No, the best place is in some side menu. After you read it and get the idea you should be able to listen to it just fine in the rest of the game right? I will agree that they could have subtitled those Wario Ware songs. I get the impression those songs may have been all serious like and there could have been some dry humor to be had in the conflict between the mini-games and the mood of the song. Missing jokes are never funny... which is actually a pretty obvious statement... Huh, I wonder if there's like a "jazz" of comedy, like it's the jokes they aren't telling.

EM: If we had rep on this board, I'd send a bunch your way. I agree completely. Seems like common sense. Subtitles during a battle? Well, let's just say I'm glad that ABF doesn't work at Nintendo.

Latin sends shivers down my spine and it's just damn neat. ABF just doesn't seem to grasp the idea of music.

it looks like a vile with something moving inside. It smacks them lightly, breaks open, and an infant Metroid flies over to the thrower, circles them, then flies off screen. The entire background and foreground goes black so all you see is the players and an adult Metroid begins feeding on whoever you threw it at, the pulsating music and the familiar SKREEE sending players in to a panic. While it feeds, it grows and after it gets the player's % up to 200 it makes a final bite sending them off screen. Now larger, it attacks it's next victim and so on. Then after it gets each player once it returns to the person who threw it, latches down on them and returns their % back to zero... at which point it dies and falls to the ground.

A different way to do it would be that if you open the vile it's a cat's game. The Metroid will just attack everyone at random for a time before it either flies off or gets destroyed but its not nearly as dramatic and doesn't play off the whole parenting theme of Metroid.

Dark Samus would make a brilliant assist trophy, covering the level in patches of phazon and briefly kicking ass with various moves, but the phazon she leaves behind would last the duration of the fight and harm anyone that gets near it. It could even interact with Metroid themed powerups/assist trophies/players and cause them to mutate, turn Samus in to hyper mode, omfg :D I dont think Aether is gonna make it as a level but you could have a Luminoth as an assist who opens a portal, inverts the level, and brings you in to a reverse version of the level that's covered in Silent Hillish death. While you fight, you watch the Luminoth recharge the light generator and fight off Ing, when the light generator is back on, you're sent back to the real world.

But at the very least, a Metroid assist trophy plz.

EdenMaster Wrote:You're right. I have missed the deep, spiritual meaning behind the opus tale that is Wario Ware. I can only pray I can ever play it again without weeping at what could have been.

Hey, those songs were really cool! It was just incredibly frustrating that the only way I could understand their meaning (and this DOES matter; they provide a bit of information on some of the characters...) was by going to Game FAQs and looking up an FAQ that had song translations. What the heck? That's not good.

Quote:Lunacy.

A translation mode for the 20 or so people like you who must know the songs meanings to enjoy the game is fine. Having it ON SCREEN during a FAST PACED FIGHTING GAME. How does the very idea not make you itch?

Why are you so repelled by this idea? It's like you think it'd ruin the game or something... I don't get it. It's a perfectly fine suggestion...

Dark Jaguar Wrote:Um, they never said that the game was historically accurate. In fact I'm pretty sure that's what you call "historical fantasy". I recently got this game, Jeanne D'arc. It is INSPIRED by history but that's about it. You begin to notice something amiss when the lead lady has to kill orcs, and that's Soul Calibur. I mean there's a giant enchanted devil sword in the game.

I'm all for historical accuracy when the developer has stated in advance they are going for realism. However, SC NEVER STATED THAT. The world is a total fiction. It is INTENDED that you consider it a completely seperate reality from the "real world", with quite possibly a totally different future. When there are wild lizard men running around and alien inferno creatures, it isn't our world any more. It isn't supposed to be "set" in our past. Rather, elements FROM our past are "set" in that world instead. They aren't "adding to" history. They are adding some history TO their own story. Taking cool stuff from our world and sticking it in their own imagined one. And really, that is a KIND of story to tell, and you can't just say "don't do that kind of story". There's a place for historical fantasy and I actually like it.

Ah, that's not my point, really. My point is that even in a fantasy world there should be a goal of creating a world that it is believable in some way... that you can say "that could happen" to for the most part (stuff like a high abundance of improbable coincidences and lots of battles traveling between locations can't be helped, which is why I say 'for the most part').

Soul Calibur does a lot of things right -- it has a plot, it provides historical background for the characters, the setting is mostly consistent with the historical time period the game is set in (the 1500's, in this case), etc... in these things Soul Calibur does a much better job than most games like it. However, my point is that those facts are what make the ones that are NOT believable stand out more. Perhaps you simply say "I don't mind, close enough" (like how in the JRPGs thread you said that it's believable for there to be a society with modern-inspired societies, an Enlighenment/Victorian/Medieval(/Classical/Feudal Japanese)-mix technology levels, and no guns to speak of...) but to me... I just can't quite reconcile that. Soul Calibur does better than usual on the guns issue, acknowledging that they exist and that they are the dominant weapon of the day. Of course all of the characters still use edged weapons anyway, because it's a edged-weapon fighting game, but... well, guns wouldn't exactly be fair, so that's okay. They couldn't set the game before the 1500s really, because in a Medieval setting having the characters travel all over like they do would be even less believable than it is (at least by that point it HAPPENED), after all.

Anyway... yes, fiction is just fine. I just want them to justify their fiction -- provide an explanation that tells me why this world can exist in this way. Why, in 1500s Europe, is anyone in Greece worshipping the Olympian Gods when their worship died out completely in the 300s-500s?

Oh yes, and why are there absolutely no Middle Eastern or African characters in the game until the fourth game in the series... and then the one they add is evil.

The most obvious complaints are in the ones you see the most often when Soul Calibur comes up, though -- character and costume design. If you want to see what I mean by that point, just look at this thread, as it makes this point quite well... you'll quickly see what I mean.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.p...ul+Calibur


And yes, the Soul Calibur games are great games. A few issues and some absurd character designs and ridiculous costumes doesn't ruin a game when the core game is great... but on the other hand, that doesn't mean that the issue isn't worth raising. It is.

So basically you are saying you want to know ALL the details on how this world is different from the one we know in history so you can understand how it can exist like it is? I see. Basically you are saying without certain details all you have are the storyline they provide plus the history you already know of in the real world, and without certain details there seem to be plot holes between them. I get you now, and actually to a point I agree. Yes, it is a little weird that anyone's still worshipping the greek gods. In these cases, I often take to just inventing my own fiction and inserting it. I try to do so to fix issues I find and so long as what I come up with is fairly parsimonious and reasonable in the terms of the story I'm fine with it. I tend not to get carried away and as I said I tend to go with the simplest explanation I can go with (just out of personal preference and because it's easier to work with). If I have to make too much of a stretch or there's no way I can reconcile it, well I consider it a plothole issue and then I get annoyed.

As for those outfits... don't get me started there... It's gone way past "inefficient as armor" in many cases to "physically impossible for it to actually be worn or stay on the body". But, I know what's up there, and they are at least somewhat "fair" in it with all those no shirt guys. Voldo isn't really much of what I'd call a compromise though...

Oh yes, as for the lack of certain country representatives, well seriously I mean they can't try to add everything and I don't expect them to really do that much there. I don't put much stock in any "hidden meaning" behind how they "handle" certain ethnic groups. Otherwise I'd have to demand an eskimo fighter or something.

A Black Falcon Wrote:Why are you so repelled by this idea? It's like you think it'd ruin the game or something... I don't get it. It's a perfectly fine suggestion...

The idea of translations does not bother me. I don't understand the need to know every bit of minutiae about the game I'm playing, but hey, that's me.

A seperate mode in the sound test wouldn't bother me either. I might use it once or twice if put in for curiosity's sake, but not be appalled at it's omission.

What repels me is the idea that you want subtitles in game. Text, that you must READ, while at the same time trying to fight and defend against up to three other players. It would clog up the screen with needless dialogue when you should really be worried about the fight in front of you.

You really don't see a problem with TEXT on the screen while you're trying to fight? Man, I want to play SSB with you sometime because if you're worried about understanding the lyrics on a foriegn language song while playing, you must not give a rats ass about the fight itself.

A Black Falcon Wrote:Oh yes, and why are there absolutely no Middle Eastern or African characters in the game until the fourth game in the series... and then the one they add is evil.

Well, really, every character in the SC universe is either good or evil. They either want Soul Edge or want to destroy it. They have to land somewhere on the fence, what does it matter in the grand scheme of things which side that is? Nationality has nothing to do with it. It's the same reason there are no Indian or Russian characters either: there just aren't or they haven't gotten there yet. The game is set primary it Europe and Asia, so that is from where most of the fighters hail.

What was Zasalamel's nationality?

Quote:So basically you are saying you want to know ALL the details on how this world is different from the one we know in history so you can understand how it can exist like it is? I see. Basically you are saying without certain details all you have are the storyline they provide plus the history you already know of in the real world, and without certain details there seem to be plot holes between them. I get you now, and actually to a point I agree. Yes, it is a little weird that anyone's still worshipping the greek gods. In these cases, I often take to just inventing my own fiction and inserting it. I try to do so to fix issues I find and so long as what I come up with is fairly parsimonious and reasonable in the terms of the story I'm fine with it. I tend not to get carried away and as I said I tend to go with the simplest explanation I can go with (just out of personal preference and because it's easier to work with). If I have to make too much of a stretch or there's no way I can reconcile it, well I consider it a plothole issue and then I get annoyed.

If you make something that isn't historical but can be believed by saying how this is a different place with different rules (see: magic) that's fine... but doing things simply because you like the design, with absolutely no thought to whether this creates a culture that could actually exist, as most Japanese and some Western fantasy game/anime designs seem to be done? Yes, I find that annoying.

Costumewise, some characters have lots of really stupid costumes, but some are worse than others... the worst offender is perhaps Taki's bodysuit. I cannot think of any possible explanation for how such a garment could exist without machine tools and synthetic fabrics, things which obviously didn't exist in the 1500s... unless someone's suggestion at NeoGAF is true and it's bodypaint. :D Voldo's costumes are all also really weird too, of course, as are... well, most all of the female character's costumes (with a very few exceptions) and a good half of the rest of the male ones. :)

Quote:As for those outfits... don't get me started there... It's gone way past "inefficient as armor" in many cases to "physically impossible for it to actually be worn or stay on the body". But, I know what's up there, and they are at least somewhat "fair" in it with all those no shirt guys. Voldo isn't really much of what I'd call a compromise though...

Oh, I'm not arguing that it's unfair. In both character designs and costumes the male characters are just as ridiculously designed as the female ones, certainly. That doesn't make either of them any more sane... and "wow those are insanely large breasts for a pre-plastic surgery civilization" is way more noticable than stuff like "are they too tall/heavy/muscular for people in the 1500s? Yes, probably." is. Both of those things are true, however. Some of those male characters definitely look like they have ... artificially enhanced... muscles... and this is even more common in Western games. The reasons for all of this make perfect sense, of course. Games, like everything else, are really a reflection of the culture making them, not of the culture being created. 'Sci-fi' stuff says more really about the time that it was made in than the future time being proposed, and 'fantasy' stuff says more about the present day than it does about either that real time period or some fantasy time period like the real one but with magic. Books do a much better job here than games, I definitely believe... some books create convincing fantasy worlds, but in games? Even in the best there are flaws... it's unfortunate, things could be better.

Anyway, because modern-day people expect things like large breasts, giant muscles, big characters, skimpy costumes, etc, games have them, even though they make no sense at all from a world design standpoint or from a "people from a place like this would actually look or act like this" standpoint. Taking some liberties is fine! I want magic in these games, female characters to have significant roles, etc. Some other things just need to be better justified...

Quote:Oh yes, as for the lack of certain country representatives, well seriously I mean they can't try to add everything and I don't expect them to really do that much there. I don't put much stock in any "hidden meaning" behind how they "handle" certain ethnic groups. Otherwise I'd have to demand an eskimo fighter or something.

The difference there would be that in the 1500s the Middle East was just as powerful and developed as Europe or Asia... now of course the Middle East is far from first-world status,but then? That was not the case.

Oh yes, and I would say, though, that black characters are even rarer in Japanese games than they are in Western ones...