From
Nintendojo:
Quote:Xbox Outselling GameCube 2 to 1 in States
Here are the US Console Sales Figures for the month of January:
PS2: 448,000
XBOX: 164,000
GameCube: 81,000
GBA: 266,000
That brings the cumulative installed bases to:
PS2: 16,318,000
XBOX: 4,765,000
GameCube: 3,664,000
GBA: 12,159,000
Additionally, the GameCube only had a single title in the top 25, being EA's Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers at number 24. 16 PS2 and 6 Xbox titles made the chart.
These figures are especially cause for concern because no major titles were released for either console this month, making them a more believable barometer for consumer demand for both the Xbox and GameCube. However, these stats are for January, one of the slowest months of the year in the industry, and each console was down about 85% compared to December.
We'll have more news as it breaks. (js)
Source: NPD
Owch... Nintendo is in trouble. They are only in second worldwide because of Japan... and I wonder how long they'll stay there, what with the X-Box pulling definitively away on the rest of the planet... Not good at all, but at this point, what can Nintendo do?
There's plenty that they can do, but they don't want to. If Nintendo doesn't announce their online plans by E3 along with news of Mario Kart and Animal Crossing Online for the fall of this year (at the very earliest), then there's not much hope for them.
Well sure, there's plenty they COULD do... but most of those things they never will because they are Nintendo... and clearly don't care at all what the public thinks or what would be best for sales of their system...
Well neither the Xbox nor the GC sold that great, especially compared to Xbox. But, those numbers are still not good for Nintendo. It will be interesting to how Zelda affects the GC's sales.
The Gamecube is still ahead by around 1 million units worldwide.
That's only because MS is doing so terribly in Japan. Nintendo is #3 everywhere else in the world.
Nintendo are 2nd worldwide?
So what did IGN mean when they wrote
this article?
they meant the xbox is second place in the US, canada and europe...just like it says. but GC is still ahead in japan by a wide enough margin to give it second highest userbase...or so i think. that article doesn't say anywhere that the Xbox is #2 in the world.
I thought the article was referring to worldwide sales.
The quote you are referring to merely mentions USA, Canada and Europe. Of course they're not going to refer to Xbox being #2 in Japan, as it's not. Although, he probably would have said "world wide" if XBox was in fact #2 worldwide.
But why would IGN announce that XBox "becomes" #2, if that fact had already been established some 9 months ago?
Bah... stupid IGN.
According to IGNCube's chat special, GameCube is still #2 worldwide. Xbox has sold at best 400k in Japan, and GameCube is probably about 3-4 million. So that's a pretty wide lead. But it doesn't really matter, Nintendo is getting destroyed.
Matt mentioned that a certain big name developer is considering canning their new GameCube project and moving it to the new Nintendo system. Something tells me this is a Nintendo inhouse dev team, because otherwise the company would can the GameCube version and make a PS2 or XBox game instead. I have a feeling it's SK or Retro, as neither will be ready to release any new projects for a year or 2. That would give them time to get a launch game ready.
It's Insider-only right now, but don't read that ICQube special unless you want to be depressed. Honestly, I don't know how much longer Nintendo will be around. I know they are making a ton of money still, but that amount is getting smaller and smaller continually. Eventually Sony or MS will release a handheld, and unlike the Wonderswan it will be marketed well, have a huge lineup, and will do all the link-up things that Nintendo always claimed they were working on but never really were. Then when this happens, Nintendo is going to be hurting bad. I don't know if they can ever pass MS or Sony with any console ever again. Sony made almost every possible mistake with the PS2 and they are still dominating. EVERYONE hates MS, they've had zero support from Japan, and they were the newbie coming up against the new biggest console maker and the company synonomous with videogames. And now the XBox is outselling the GameCube 2:1. People don't buy game machines to play games, they buy them to be cool and watch movies and kill time for a few minutes. We've seen it happening for a while now, but it's now official and the consequenses are worse than I ever imagined. Games are completely mainstream- and the ones who brought games to this place are getting run out of town. It's pretty sad.
Could that canned GC game be Too Human? Hmm..
But yeah, it is depressing. The next generation is Nintendo's last hope. They've made some great strides with the Gamecube from the Nintendo 64, but they need to make even greater changes with their next system. Most importantly it must be released at or around the same time as Sony and MS's new consoles. Their storage medium has to match or beat Sony and MS's (that includes having a HDD), so no more crappy ports because of insufficient disc space. They have to have plenty of great games come out on a regular basis (the first half of 2002 was torture for Gamecube owners), they have to improve their marketing ten-fold, and they have to try to shake off that "kiddy" image. It's quite a task, but I hope for the best.
I can't wait to see what Nintendo discovers for their "profitable" online strategy. Whatever it is, they have to throw that on their next console too. And perhaps they shouldn't make it look like a toy. Yeah, not a toy. But they probably know that, because of the whole GBA-SP thing. Hooray for the new guy!
Those have got to be the most depressing statistics I've seen since those of the Franco-Prussian war. I can't believe Microsoft is winning! How can the gelatin-brained assholes at Nintendo let this happen!? Nine years ago, neither Sony nor Microsoft were even in the market!
Nintendo will never be on top again.
The best they can do, IMO, is continue doing what they are doing, and defying what the industry expects. Separate them from the competition.
Forget about 3rd party support, as they are never going to have enough to make a difference, but BOOST their 1st/2nd party offerings IMMENSLY. A 1st/2nd party game coming out every other week would separate them from the competition (who are competing against eachother) and leave Nintendo all on their own; catering to their own little niche (which would be much larger with more exclusive Nintendo offering).
Sure, they still may never reach #1 again, but I think we would all be happy, and Nintendo would continue to do well.
Although I would like to see online play :D
As long as Nintendo makes a profit I dont think they'll worry to much.
since they still got shiggy!
How could Nintendo never be on top again? Businesses rise and fall constantly, it's their nature. The PSX was scraping the barrel before they invested tons of cash in marketing for FF7. After that, Sony and their 3rd parties realized that showing pretty graphics or game content didn't matter, you just had to make the commercial funny or hip. When I was working at Babbages during the lauunch of FF7 we had hundreds of people returning the game because they thought it was like Zelda. I would try to explain to them what an RPG is and people didn't get it. Sony continued to market it as a movie, showing clips of FMV, and before you knew it the game was #1. The first truely succesful RPG in the states. It was that one game that made the PSX a hit with mostly kids and some older teenagers (over 15) who bought the game because of hype, and continued playing because of the action and the adult themes without EVER having played an RPG before or even knowing what an RPG is.
In Japan, no one wanted an XBox. They wouldn't even consider it. As soon as XBox Live was released, it has almost overtaken the Gamecube. And along with marketing, many of the XBox titles that were ignored are now selling in high volumes. One could predict that the XBox will eventually overtake the PS2 and any future consoles from Sony, worldwide. A perepheral for online play = Final Fantasy 7...? It could be. It happened before.
Now we just wait and see. But saying a company can never be on top again in it's industry is just dumb. What if it was Nintendo that brought out Gamecube Live? How long do you think it would take Nintendo to reach an installed userbase of 16,318,000 from 3,664,000? that's 12,654,000 Gamecubes to be sold. So let's say it took 2 years to reach 4 million, that's 2 million a year. So in 6 years the Gamecube would have caught up with the PS2. And if there was a game or perepheral that pushed more sales, that number could be cut in half. These are the same numbers that Microsoft and Nintendo are going through right now.
Yes, I think that its been established that X-Box Live is a great idea which is dramatically helping Sony and Nintendo's non-policy on the internet is hurting them quite significantly... I just don't understand Nintendo's thinking on the subject at all.
Oh... 'Gamecube Live' would help Nintendo, but not as much as X-Box Live did... because X-Box live was the first online system of its kind on a major, successful console... the PS2 just has a 'set up your own' system that leads to fewer games being online than X-Box Live, where Microsoft deals with running all of it... and where games that aren't online on the other two consoles are online on X-Box because its so easy to add it. However... if Nintendo did something similar, it wouldn't be new so it wouldnt' make as much of an impact... Would it help? Yes. A lot. But not as much as Live does the X-Box... its not as new an idea anymore.
Still, Gamecube 2 better have a built-in modem, a harddrive, and internet service at launch or it won't have a chance...
Oh, and while it is true that the market is constantly changing and that no situation is permanant, I don't see Nintendo getting back to first place anytime soon. If the three next consoles come out at the same time, I honestly don't know which would win... but given many people's stupid opinions that Nintendo is 'kiddy' or something, I doubt it'd be Nintendo. If anyone has a chance to beat Sony in the next generation, I'd be it'd be Microsoft...
You guys are forgetting to include something in your thesis. If Nintendo wants to make games for everyone they should cut the crap and make games that are a bit more geared towards older audiences. They have lost Rare, they now need to adopt some of Rare's concepts of visuality rather than making Zelda: Wind Waker look like it took place 7 years before Ocarina of Time. Also however, this is not Nintendo fault entirely, its the other 3rd-part publishers/developers who focuses more on other platforms. But I can't say I blame them for these, I think they're only focusing their profits onto stronger, more-profitable companies that will help the game(s) they created give a big boost to their manufacturer.
hey existenze!
Good to see you came too.
Nintendo's problem is not software. Their games are fantastic, and there are plenty of them. If Metroid Prime were released on the PS2 or X-Box with Sony or MS's marketing, I'm sure it would have sold a hell of a lot more than it did on the 'cube. Their problem is marketing and public perception. I could go on but I'd just be repeating what has been said many many times in the past.
Yeah... I absolutely agree, OB1, as we've said many times before. Nintendo's software selection is great... but marketing and public perception is awful.
Oh... and who are these 'new' (can't blame be for doubting that at THIS forum...almost no one's ever actually new...) people? Where did they come from? And is the cow needed? Probably not...
I don't know. Why don't you guys introduce yourselves?
Quote:Originally posted by OB1
Could that canned GC game be Too Human? Hmm..
But yeah, it is depressing. The next generation is Nintendo's last hope. They've made some great strides with the Gamecube from the Nintendo 64, but they need to make even greater changes with their next system. Most importantly it must be released at or around the same time as Sony and MS's new consoles. Their storage medium has to match or beat Sony and MS's (that includes having a HDD), so no more crappy ports because of insufficient disc space. They have to have plenty of great games come out on a regular basis (the first half of 2002 was torture for Gamecube owners), they have to improve their marketing ten-fold, and they have to try to shake off that "kiddy" image. It's quite a task, but I hope for the best.
Some words of wisdom from Great Rumbler:
Dwelling on tomorrow will only make you depressed. Enjoy what the present offers and let the future care for itself.
As you can see I'm a huge optomist, it takes quite a bit to make me feel depressed.
I'm not depressed. I'm hopeful. Hopeful for the next Nintendo system. And of course all of the great GC games that I'll be playing until that comes out.
Quote:Originally posted by lazyfatbum
How could Nintendo never be on top again? Businesses rise and fall constantly, it's their nature. The PSX was scraping the barrel before they invested tons of cash in marketing for FF7. After that, Sony and their 3rd parties realized that showing pretty graphics or game content didn't matter, you just had to make the commercial funny or hip. When I was working at Babbages during the lauunch of FF7 we had hundreds of people returning the game because they thought it was like Zelda. I would try to explain to them what an RPG is and people didn't get it. Sony continued to market it as a movie, showing clips of FMV, and before you knew it the game was #1. The first truely succesful RPG in the states. It was that one game that made the PSX a hit with mostly kids and some older teenagers (over 15) who bought the game because of hype, and continued playing because of the action and the adult themes without EVER having played an RPG before or even knowing what an RPG is.
Final Fantasy 7 was only the catalyst in Japan (although other Square software also helped). The PSX took off because of it's (commercially) amazing years during 1997/1998, in which a slew of games really got them going (Final Fantasy 7, Crash Bandicoot 1/2/3, Resident Evil 1/2, Tomb Raider, Ace Combat 2, Final Fantasy Tactics, Gran Turismo, Tekken 2/3 etc. etc.) while Nintendo really only had a few large selling games to help them (Mario Kart, Zelda, Mario, Goldeneye, Pokemon Stadium)
Final Fantasy was only a part of the boom, particularly in America where other games sold just as well, or better.
The agressive marketting of these games is obviously what got them over the line. But a single game (or peripheral) was not the case.
Quote:In Japan, no one wanted an XBox. They wouldn't even consider it. As soon as XBox Live was released, it has almost overtaken the Gamecube. And along with marketing, many of the XBox titles that were ignored are now selling in high volumes. One could predict that the XBox will eventually overtake the PS2 and any future consoles from Sony, worldwide. A perepheral for online play = Final Fantasy 7...? It could be. It happened before.
XBox Live is a huge seller for Xbox in Japan? Is that why XBox is now being outsold by the GameCube by approximately 5,000 unites (latest Japanese charts)? And why this year in Japan, GameCube has sold 150,000 and the XBox has only sold 30,000 units? Why was it only one week when XBox was competitive with the GCN sales wise?
I'd be willing to bet that XBox Live was only a small part of it, particularly considering the REAL reason XBox sold at all that week was Phantasy Star Online. Those crazy japs.
Quote:Now we just wait and see. But saying a company can never be on top again in it's industry is just dumb.
I just don't see it happening, is all. Particularly with so much speculation that Nintendo will be going 33rd party (albeit, fanboy driven - I don't think it'll happen)
Quote:What if it was Nintendo that brought out Gamecube Live?
Would hardly have made a difference. Particularly with no games supporting it :p
Quote:How long do you think it would take Nintendo to reach an installed userbase of 16,318,000 from 3,664,000? that's 12,654,000 Gamecubes to be sold. So let's say it took 2 years to reach 4 million, that's 2 million a year. So in 6 years the Gamecube would have caught up with the PS2. And if there was a game or perepheral that pushed more sales, that number could be cut in half. These are the same numbers that Microsoft and Nintendo are going through right now.
Sure, but it's not going to happen. :(
All of Nintendo's big hits have been released. Zelda sold well, for it's first week, but it's hardly being a consistant system seller (Japan), Metroid (USA) sold well originally, but it's dropped down also.
The only thing I can see from either company would be Halo 2 that will sell massive amounts of systems (surpass the PS2, possibly, for a week or so). Although, I certainly hope Zelda will push the GCN past the XBox (at the very minimum) once it's released in the US, but I can't even see that happening.
Actually X-Box Live sold pretty well in Japan. And PSO isn't even out yet.
Really?
I thought PSO was a launch game with it?
Silly me.
Anyways, as far as I know it, XBox Live! only sold well for it's first week, then dropped off again.
What games in Japan support it?
And one more thing..
Quote:But not as much as Live does the X-Box
I really don't see how Live has helped the XBox all that much (sales wise). Unless it's helped the XBox as much as the Network Adapter has helped the PS2, thus BOTH their sales increased accordingly.. and GCN was left behind.
lazy- Where are you getting your information from? Media-Create, the most reliable source of Japanese sales data has Xbox at 38300 for the year and 3000 per week. In comparison, Gamecube is at 162900 for the year and 9200 per week. Did you statement come from the silly comparison of Zelda's weekly sales with Live's weekly sales? Because that was really misleading.
When X-Box Live launched in Japan it sold extremely well for an X-Box product. I know that's not saying much, but it does show that gamers in Japan are ready for online play, even on the big ugly American console. Hopefully Nintendo is paying attention.
OB1, Nintendo is advertising their newly released games. People aren't just getting enough taste of the games they want on the GC. On that contrary, if Metroid Prime were on PS2 and Xbx ports - that depends as well, if those consoles has enough tastey softwares people will like, then it's likely that those platforms will get many install base, but if not, then it would be the GC.
As for the next Nintendo console...c'mon, I have heard more tidbits about PS3 and Xbx Next but as far as I'm concerned, I don't worry about the next-gen consoles.
I think GC is slow for now, but it'll pick back the pace once PSO, the next Resident Evil, Sonic Mega Collection, P.N.03, the Yugioh game for the GC, Metroid Prime 2 - these games I believe will help Nintendo hopefully. I definitely want Nintendo to be ahead of Microsoft here, the reason why Xbx is doing better is because it's system specs and its strong online infrastructure.
You do know that PSO has been out for some time, right?
Or did you mean in Japan?
And I still don't think that XBox's online plan is giving it any major advantage ATM. The sales of the console certainly haven't seemed to have increased on average since XBL!. Either has the PS2, for that matter.
Oh, and does anybody else agree (or at least have a comment regarding) my thoughts that Nintendo's only real way of becoming the giant they once were is to really begin ramping up the production of their 1st/2nd party titles?
Quote:Originally posted by eXisTenZe
OB1, Nintendo is advertising their newly released games. People aren't just getting enough taste of the games they want on the GC. On that contrary, if Metroid Prime were on PS2 and Xbx ports - that depends as well, if those consoles has enough tastey softwares people will like, then it's likely that those platforms will get many install base, but if not, then it would be the GC.
[sarcasm]There are advertisements for Gamecube games??!!! Woah! [/sarcasm]
Of course they advertise their games. But the problem is that they don't advertise well enough or often enough. I saw the Metroid Prime commercial (which is cool as a mini-movie, but not so much as a game ad) maybe five, six times since November. But I've seen commercials for Kingdom Hearts and Splinter Cell many, many more times.
Quote:As for the next Nintendo console...c'mon, I have heard more tidbits about PS3 and Xbx Next but as far as I'm concerned, I don't worry about the next-gen consoles.
Well don't worry about it then. But many of us like to talk about the future, especially since it's Nintendo's big, last (maybe) hope.
Quote:I think GC is slow for now, but it'll pick back the pace once PSO, the next Resident Evil, Sonic Mega Collection, P.N.03, the Yugioh game for the GC, Metroid Prime 2 - these games I believe will help Nintendo hopefully. I definitely want Nintendo to be ahead of Microsoft here, the reason why Xbx is doing better is because it's system specs and its strong online infrastructure.
It's slow? Are you talking about software? The Gamecube's exclusive line-up wipes the floor with the X-Box's.
And the X-Box is ahead of the Gamecube because of its better marketing and image. The GC is very comparable to the X-Box, specs-wise. The PS2 is miles ahead of both of them put together and it's far more inferior in terms of hardware.
Quote:Well don't worry about it then. But many of us like to talk about the future, especially since it's Nintendo's big, last (maybe) hope.
I'm thinking (and hoping) that my idea of Nintendo segregating themselves from the rest of the market may actually be their saving grace. Eventually in the future, the PS3 may be a settop box more than anything else, and if people want to have a mere game machine (most likely much cheaper than the settop boxes) the Nintendo machine will be their alternative.
Quote:It's slow? Are you talking about software? The Gamecube's exclusive line-up wipes the floor with the X-Box's.
That is certainly a matter of opinion. Both consoles have similarly sized lineups, but the majority of XBox's (quality) lineup is are ports. Both consoles have some extremely good exclusives in the future, although most of Nintendo's are 1st/2nd party (only exception really being Resident Evil 4).
Xbox has plenty of good 3rd Party exclusives (Fable, KOTOR, TFLO,etc.) and some major 1st party ones as well (Halo2, Mech Assault 2 etc.)
But I believe he's referring more to hardware sales. Not sure.
Quote:And the X-Box is ahead of the Gamecube because of its better marketing and image. The GC is very comparable to the X-Box, specs-wise. The PS2 is miles ahead of both of them put together and it's far more inferior in terms of hardware.
Which just goes to show you that the general public don't particularly care about the power of the machine. No matter how much Microsoft lie about the XBox to get people to buy them (although it has worked, to an extent).
Huh... who'd have thought it -- two new people at the same time. How in the world did they find TC? A member mentioning it? Because we're sure not linked from much of anywhere...
Anyway...
We have a cow, a lovely cow!
:lovelycow:
On to the subject.
Hmm... does Nintendo's isolating themselves as gaming-only as opposed to set-top boxes help them? Well... I don't know. I do know that Nintendo makes lots of extremely good games... which if they actually had caught public attention would have had a chance to sell great.
Yet we've still got lots of people talking about the "Kiddy Cube" and how its just for little kids... and Nintendo does almost nothing to change that... and what they do do, they don't do enough of... I know I've said how abysmal Nintendo's advertising department has been ever since they started marketing the Gamecube many times... because its true. Nintendo either doesn't advertise anywhere NEAR enough, or advertises badly... they haven't had a decent ad campaign in years and I'm sure it has hurt their massmarket appeal some... given how Sony seems to advertise CONSTANTLY, and Microsoft isn't too far behind them...
As for the pace of NGC releases, it isn't as good as for the other consoles, but its worlds better than we got for the N64... which is an improvement... even if it doesn't keep pace, its better than it used to be. And we're still getting all the great Nintendo first and second party games, so I have no doubt that it'll stay that way... I can't afford any more games than I get for PC and NGC as it is...
Oh, and the X-Box does have a great lineup of exclusive games and multiconsole games that are best on that system (because of better graphics, online play that isn't in the other versions, or both...). Not as good as Nintendo's, of course, but pretty good...
Edit: Oh, and IMO Nintendo should just get rid of their whole marketing division, hire people who are actually competent (ie NOT people even remotely responsible for the Mario Sunshine ad campaign), and increase the ad budget... its badly needed...
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Hmm... does Nintendo's isolating themselves as gaming-only as opposed to set-top boxes help them? Well... I don't know. I do know that Nintendo makes lots of extremely good games... which if they actually had caught public attention would have had a chance to sell great.
Well, I think it would be good, because they would be a completely different market from the competitors. Let Sony and Microsoft 'fight' it out, while GameCube does it's own thing. Giving people a gaming alternative, rather than a multimedia BEAST.
Quote:and multiconsole games that are best on that system (because of better graphics, online play that isn't in the other versions, or both...).
1st of all, not all XBox versions of the same game have better graphics. 2nd of all, PS2 has more multi-console games online than XBox does.
XBox has Capcom vs. SNK 2 online (PS2 version is not online). But PS2 has the entire EA sports lineup, while XBox does not.
You really shouldn't think that it's that much easier for games to be set up with online play for the XBox, because it simply isn't true. Unless, it's for a dedicated server (i.e. an MMORPG). Most games on the PS2 will be using a P2P system, anyways.
Quote:I'm thinking (and hoping) that my idea of Nintendo segregating themselves from the rest of the market may actually be their saving grace. Eventually in the future, the PS3 may be a settop box more than anything else, and if people want to have a mere game machine (most likely much cheaper than the settop boxes) the Nintendo machine will be their alternative.
That's what Nintendo has been trying to do with the Gamecube, and it obviously hasn't worked.
Quote:That is certainly a matter of opinion. Both consoles have similarly sized lineups, but the majority of XBox's (quality) lineup is are ports. Both consoles have some extremely good exclusives in the future, although most of Nintendo's are 1st/2nd party (only exception really being Resident Evil 4).
Xbox has plenty of good 3rd Party exclusives (Fable, KOTOR, TFLO,etc.) and some major 1st party ones as well (Halo2, Mech Assault 2 etc.)
MS's first-party games can't even come close to Nintendo's, both in terms of quality and quantity. How many good first-party X-Box games came out in 2002? Mech Assault... um.... Mech Assault... what am I forgetting? In 2002 Nintendo gave us Eternal Darkness, Mario Sunshine, Star Fox Adventures (not excellent, but still pretty good), Metroid Prime, and Animal Crossing.
Star Wars: Clone Wars is, like Capcom vs SNK 2, another game on all 3 platforms but just has netplay on X-Box Live... and I'm sure there are (or will be) more...
PS only has online games because its huge market share means that companies don't mind as much paying to set up online networks... because Sony doesn't have one. Its strictly up to the developers... X-Box Live does it for them, making it an easier system to put into games, and, I imagine, cheaper... though of course just because of the sheer size of the PS2 owner population, that console will get online games... even though Sony's actual online policy for 3rd party developers doesn't seem to be much different from Nintendo's...
Quote:Originally posted by OB1
That's what Nintendo has been trying to do with the Gamecube, and it obviously hasn't worked.
I actually think it has. I think it's what has actually kept them in the game, and what will keep them in the game. It has to have it's own identity, while XBox is basically just a prettier PS2.
Imagine if Nintendo were to completely forget about 3rd parties. Who cares about getting yet another port that's available on PS2/XBox - that's going to sell like crap on the GCN anyways? What they should be concentrating on is getting the third parties to make unique exclusive games (such as the Capcom 5, but they aren't all exclusive) and increase their 1st/2nd party lineup giving them a completely different array of choices.
Basically, it might be a lot more like the 64, but with many more games being released. I would hate to see Nintendo ending up like the XBox, and living off PS2's scraps where about 90% of the best games on the system are available on another machine.
Luckily enough, though, the XBox is beginning to get some really nice exclusive games coming out (such as the ones I listed above).
Quote:MS's first-party games can't even come close to Nintendo's, both in terms of quality and quantity. How many good first-party X-Box games came out in 2002? Mech Assault... um.... Mech Assault... what am I forgetting? In 2002 Nintendo gave us Eternal Darkness, Mario Sunshine, Star Fox Adventures (not excellent, but still pretty good), Metroid Prime, and Animal Crossing. [/B]
Well, that is opinion, remember? Not all people liked those games you listed, even Metroid.
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Star Wars: Clone Wars is, like Capcom vs SNK 2, another game on all 3 platforms but just has netplay on X-Box Live... and I'm sure there are (or will be) more...
Really? I hadn't heard that. Thanks.
Quote:PS only has online games because its huge market share means that companies don't mind as much paying to set up online networks... because Sony doesn't have one. Its strictly up to the developers... X-Box Live does it for them, making it an easier system to put into games, and, I imagine, cheaper... though of course just because of the sheer size of the PS2 owner population, that console will get online games... even though Sony's actual online policy for 3rd party developers doesn't seem to be much different from Nintendo's...
Developers don't necessarily need to setup networks if the game is going to be P2P. Perhaps just a small one so you can find the games (although other third parties can do that instead, or the publisher) ala, Counter-Strike or any other P2P game.
And I really hope you crticize the PC online setup as much as you do the PS2 one. Because you don't want to be hypocritical, or anything, do you? ;)
P2P works just fine, once you're into a game... but between games, you need some kind of matchmaking service, like most any PC multiplayer game... which, unlike Microsoft, Sony doesn't provide. So the game companies have to make and keep up those networks for those games... unless they do a client-server system like PC FPSes all use, but console games don't seem to like that because it requires systems to be dedicated as servers -- something console gamers don't do, unlike PC ones... I don't like that setup much on PC, though. I far prefer matchmaking services -- Battle.net, Zone.com, Gamespy Arcade, etc... servers are OK too, but I like having all the extras in addition to servers that you get on matchmaking services.
But then again, I bet a bunch of that is related to how I just don't like online FPSes much and they are the only ones to use that system.
Quote:Imagine if Nintendo were to completely forget about 3rd parties. Who cares about getting yet another port that's available on PS2/XBox - that's going to sell like crap on the GCN anyways? What they should be concentrating on is getting the third parties to make unique exclusive games (such as the Capcom 5, but they aren't all exclusive) and increase their 1st/2nd party lineup giving them a completely different array of choices.
Basically, it might be a lot more like the 64, but with many more games being released. I would hate to see Nintendo ending up like the XBox, and living off PS2's scraps where about 90% of the best games on the system are available on another machine.
You sure want to see Nintendo stay permanantly in last place... because if they did that they would. Drop 3rd parties? Are you sane? That would KILL Nintendo... they NEED third party games! Nintendo doesn't want another N64... they do want third party games... which is a very good idea. Nintendo alone (or with just a couple of 3rd parties) cannot make enough games to fill a console's lineup, as the N64 proved... and I sure don't think that will change anytime soon. One company just can't do that... Nintendo already makes far, far more great exclusive games than MS or Sony as it is... No, Nintendo needs far better marketing (I'd settle for just more marketing...) and some more things to draw in (and keep) users that other consoles have -- like online games, harddrives, etc...
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
You sure want to see Nintendo stay permanantly in last place... because if they did that they would. Drop 3rd parties? Are you sane? That would KILL Nintendo... they NEED third party games! Nintendo doesn't want another N64... they do want third party games... which is a very good idea. Nintendo alone (or with just a couple of 3rd parties) cannot make enough games to fill a console's lineup, as the N64 proved... and I sure don't think that will change anytime soon. One company just can't do that... Nintendo already makes far, far more great exclusive games than MS or Sony as it is... No, Nintendo needs far better marketing (I'd settle for just more marketing...) and some more things to draw in (and keep) users that other consoles have -- like online games, harddrives, etc...
Which is why I said that they need to drastically increase their 1st/2nd party throughput. Buy as many small developers as they can and improve them.
Microsoft have tried the third party approach, getting many of PS2's ports, and where has it gotten them? A 10% market share. Whooptey fucking do.
Nobody buys Nintendo products for the third party games as it is (just look at sales figures), which is why they seriously need to increase their in-house efforts.
And I never said drop third party support, just forget about the notion that that's what they need.
Quote:Nintendo already makes far, far more great exclusive games than MS or Sony as it is...
You've all had this arguement with me before ;)
Quote:Originally posted by Private Hudson
[B]I actually think it has. I think it's what has actually kept them in the game, and what will keep them in the game. It has to have it's own identity, while XBox is basically just a prettier PS2.
Imagine if Nintendo were to completely forget about 3rd parties. Who cares about getting yet another port that's available on PS2/XBox - that's going to sell like crap on the GCN anyways? What they should be concentrating on is getting the third parties to make unique exclusive games (such as the Capcom 5, but they aren't all exclusive) and increase their 1st/2nd party lineup giving them a completely different array of choices.
Basically, it might be a lot more like the 64, but with many more games being released. I would hate to see Nintendo ending up like the XBox, and living off PS2's scraps where about 90% of the best games on the system are available on another machine.
Luckily enough, though, the XBox is beginning to get some really nice exclusive games coming out (such as the ones I listed above).
Are you nuts? No one but the hardcore Nintendo following would ever buy a Nintendo system if there were only first and second-party games available for it. And the plan hasn't worked at all for Nintendo.
Quote:Well, that is opinion, remember? Not all people liked those games you listed, even Metroid.
Ha, sure it's my opinion. And I'm sure that some people prefer games like Nightcaster and Azurik. But if you want a more objective viewpoint, go to gamerankings.com and look at the average scores for all of the Gamecube and X-Box games this year.
But please, name one first-party X-Box games from 2002 that matches up to Nintendo's best from that same year. Just go ahead, I need a good laugh.
Quote:Nobody buys Nintendo products for the third party games as it is (just look at sales figures), which is why they seriously need to increase their in-house efforts.
How much further can they go? The Gamecube is a little over a year old, and we have a a new Mario game, a new Metroid game, and (soon) a new Zelda game. Add to that the other original first and second party games of last year and this year and you have Nintendo's strongest lineup ever for such a short time period.
Yeah... Hudson, I just don't see any possible way Nintendo could magically increase their game output so much that they'd keep a system afloat on their own. It just isn't logically possible... Nintendo puts out GREAT games, but they can't do it all the time... and the result from stuff like that are times like the first half of '02 with so few good games.
Oh, and Hudson, you try to deny it but that plan of yours sounds EXACTLY like what Nintendo did with the N64... and the results would be just as predictable as those were... 3rd party games may not sell as well as 1st party ones, and may not be as good as those, but having them is important because it gives more options and helps keep the system more alive in the public conciousness...
Oh, and I wouldn't compare X-Box and GC sales numbers directly to PS2 this generation... PS2 has clearly won, and big. No question there... and as mentioned, game quality has very little to do with it or Nintendo would be winning. If the next 3 systems launch near-simultaneously, though... now that'll be a race to watch closely...
The thing is, people are NOT buying the GCN for the third party games. Which is why many third parties are leaving, or at the very least, showing their discontent for the GCN. I'm not saying that they not allow third parties to develope games, but they need to really increase their level of game production, so much so that it dominates the lineup in sheer numbers.
Quote:I just don't see any possible way Nintendo could magically increase their game output so much that they'd keep a system afloat on their own.
They have 6 - 8 billion $$$ sitting in the bank doing nothing. They could buy a couple hundred (yes, that's exagerated but it gets my point across) developers with that.
They need to increase their level of output at
least to the level of Sega. Start up divisions to make sports games, simulations, First-Person shooters, etc. etc. Variety, along with their famous quality.
Quote:Oh, and Hudson, you try to deny it but that plan of yours sounds EXACTLY like what Nintendo did with the N64
I didn't try to deny it, in fact I originally brought up the point. But Nintendo need to put out many more games than they are now (and ever did with the N64). Yes, I know it's unlikely, and I know it's an extreme measure, but it's the
only way I can see Nintendo getting back into the game. Third parties have already sided with PS2 and XBox (for the most part), and the gamers, also, buy their third party games for those consoles.
Picture how successful the N64 would have been had it's 1st/2nd party game lineup been 10x the size that it actually was.
Quote:3rd party games may not sell as well as 1st party ones, and may not be as good as those, but having them is important because it gives more options and helps keep the system more alive in the public conciousness...
I never said get rid of them, merely make them unnecessary.
Quote:and as mentioned, game quality has very little to do with it or Nintendo would be winning.
No, the Dreamcast would be winning. Then the PS2 coming in second.
Quote:How much further can they go? The Gamecube is a little over a year old, and we have a a new Mario game, a new Metroid game, and (soon) a new Zelda game. Add to that the other original first and second party games of last year and this year and you have Nintendo's strongest lineup ever for such a short time period.
Yet, and it's hardly a fraction of the quality and quantity of games that Sega put out in the same period of time. Nintendo have that advantage that if they had have put out the same amount of quality games that Sega did, they
would have been
much more successful than they, and Sega are now.
As I stated before, it's an extreme measure, but it's the only way I could possibly see Nintendo getting back into the fold as a major force in gaming.
Quote:I didn't try to deny it, in fact I originally brought up the point. But Nintendo need to put out many more games than they are now (and ever did with the N64). Yes, I know it's unlikely, and I know it's an extreme measure, but it's the only way I can see Nintendo getting back into the game. Third parties have already sided with PS2 and XBox (for the most part), and the gamers, also, buy their third party games for those consoles.
Picture how successful the N64 would have been had it's 1st/2nd party game lineup been 10x the size that it actually was.
Get back into the game?? They are in the game! And your plan is to put them even more firmly into third-place by getting rid of all third-party support. You don't make any sense.
Quote:Yet, and it's hardly a fraction of the quality and quantity of games that Sega put out in the same period of time. Nintendo have that advantage that if they had have put out the same amount of quality games that Sega did, they would have been much more successful than they, and Sega are now.
They sure have the quantity part, but quality? I don't think so! Let's see what
original games Sega released in 2002, followed with their average rating from gamerankings:
-Shinobi:
75.8%
-Gunvalkyrie:
75%
-Monkey Ball 2:
87%
-JSRF:
88%
-Sega GT 2002:
82%
-Beach Spikers:
77%
-Home Run King:
61%
-Sega Soccer Slam:
80.5%
-Gungrave:
66%
-Virtua Figher 4:
91.7%
-Crazy Taxi 3:
70%
-TJ&E 3:
74%
-House of the Dead 3:
70%
-NFL 2K3:
91.6%
-NBA 2K3:
91.3%
-NHL 2K3:
89%
That's certainly a good number of games, but how many received an average rating of over 90%? Three of them, with two of them being sports game. And how many got scores of 70% and lower? Eight. Now let's look at Nintendo's lineup:
-Metroid Prime:
96.7%
-Super Mario Sunshine:
92%
-Animal Crossing:
89.1%
-Star Fox Adventures:
81%
-Mario Party 4:
72.2%
-Eternal Darkness:
89%
-Metroid Fusion:
93%
-Wario Land 4:
84%
Ok so that's a much smaller lineup, but the GC's first half of 2002 was void of any first-party games, and several other AAA titles never made it to the states this year, like Fire Emblem, Magical Vacation, and Wind Waker. And I'd take Metroid and Mario over Sega's entire 2002 lineup any day of the week. It's also important to remember that Sega has many more development teams than Nintendo does, and they have so many 2nd parties that it's insane.
But yes I agree that Nintendo should invest in more second-parties like they did with Retro and Silicon Knights.
OB1, I don't know if GBA games should count in that list along with major console tiles, given how you didn't list Sega's GBA games... and that would leave Nintendo with 6 games compared with 18 for Sega... many of which were multiplatform. Were Nintendo's games better quality? Yes... but still, its 3 times less games, and Sega makes pretty good games.. I'd still choose those 6 Nintendo games over all those Sega games, but yes, Nintendo does need more first and second party games... given how 3rd party support is now fading...
Oh, and I agree with OB1 that Hudson's idea here is just lunacy...
Quote:Originally posted by OB1
Get back into the game?? They are in the game! And your plan is to put them even more firmly into third-place by getting rid of all third-party support. You don't make any sense.
Are you even listening (reading). I told you repeatedly that I am [b]not saying they should get rid of third party support.
And by "get back into the game", I meant more along the lines of challenging for a solid (30 - 40%+) market share.
Quote:They sure have the quantity part, but quality? I don't think so! Let's see what original games Sega released in 2002, followed with their average rating from gamerankings:
-Shinobi: 75.8%
-Gunvalkyrie: 75%
-Monkey Ball 2: 87%
-JSRF: 88%
-Sega GT 2002: 82%
-Beach Spikers: 77%
-Home Run King: 61%
-Sega Soccer Slam: 80.5%
-Gungrave: 66%
-Virtua Figher 4: 91.7%
-Crazy Taxi 3: 70%
-TJ&E 3: 74%
-House of the Dead 3: 70%
-NFL 2K3: 91.6%
-NBA 2K3: 91.3%
-NHL 2K3: 89%
That's certainly a good number of games, but how many received an average rating of over 90%? Three of them, with two of them being sports game. And how many got scores of 70% and lower? Eight. Now let's look at Nintendo's lineup:
-Metroid Prime: 96.7%
-Super Mario Sunshine: 92%
-Animal Crossing: 89.1%
-Star Fox Adventures: 81%
-Mario Party 4: 72.2%
-Eternal Darkness: 89%
-Metroid Fusion: 93%
-Wario Land 4: 84%
Ok so that's a much smaller lineup, but the GC's first half of 2002 was void of any first-party games, and several other AAA titles never made it to the states this year, like Fire Emblem, Magical Vacation, and Wind Waker. And I'd take Metroid and Mario over Sega's entire 2002 lineup any day of the week. It's also important to remember that Sega has many more development teams than Nintendo does, and they have so many 2nd parties that it's insane.
But yes I agree that Nintendo should invest in more second-parties like they did with Retro and Silicon Knights. [/B]
Heh, well, I meant more along the lines of the first year or so of the Dreamcast, but that's ok.
Anyways, you really shouldn't count GBA games in Nintendo's list there, as it really doesn't help the GCN's cause (albeit, if there is some minor GCN-GBA connectivity). So then we are looking at 3 Sega games scoring 90+ vs. 2 Nintendo games scoring 90+ (albeit higher averages). And 5 Sega games scoring 80+ blah blah, it's irrelevant.
And Gamerankings is hardly the most accurate site to judge the quality of a game by (as if any website is), I still think Shinobi was Sega's best game during that period, and it only averaged scored a 75%. Did you ever play it?
Anyways..
Quote:It's also important to remember that Sega has many more development teams than Nintendo does, and they have so many 2nd parties that it's insane.
And that's what Nintendo need. Buy up as many small (or large) dev teams and work with them (to an extent). Sure you're probably going to get the occasional crap, but could you imagine getting those six GCN games, and about 15 - 20 (or more) other Nintendo games for the same period?
Quote:but yes, Nintendo does need more first and second party games... given how 3rd party support is now fading...
Oh, and I agree with OB1 that Hudson's idea here is just lunacy...
So you agree with me, and then disagree?
Hudson... you just don't seem to get it... Nintendo will not ever have 4 times more games coming out than they already do! Umm... I see no possible way that in the real world that could ever happen... its just so unrealistic that it is completely absurd.
As is the idea that doing that could get them bigger market share...
Quote:So you agree with me, and then disagree?
Nope, I agreed with OB1. He said that Nintendo needs more second parties... I agreed... but the extent you seem to want would not do anything except hurt them... since it just wouldn't work.
Oh... and as for Sega vs Nintendo, in many ways Nintendo is definitely doing better... Dreamcast did have great games, but it was buried so badly at the end of the first year by the PS2 that by that point its death was just a matter of time... Nintendo is surviving with two other consoles...
As for the games themselves, I would agree that Sega makes a lot of high quality games... but Nintendo's are better. No question. And why should Nintendo make sports games? They have in the past, remember, and they're usually not nearly as good as Sega's or EA's sports games...