Tendo City

It's neat.

I'm getting Jungle Beat this weekend.

I got Jade Empire.

I don't buy new games much anymore. I'll usually wait until they drop in price, or on rare occasions I'll buy them used. So, to answer your question, I don't have Jade Empire yet.

I didn't ask that question though...

You didn't ask a question at all. All you said was it's neat, so I can say whatever the hell I want.

I wish I could grow wings so that I could fly in the sky with Bea Arthur and Fred Savage.

So has the game left you feeling awesome'd or.... heh, jaded? pfffhaaaahahhahahaaha! That is HILARITY ITSELF what I just said!

DMiller Wrote:You didn't ask a question at all. All you said was it's neat, so I can say whatever the hell I want.

HA! Then why did you say "So, to answer your question, I don't have Jade Empire yet."?? HUH? HUH??!!!


HAHAHAAAA!!!


I'm the winner!

Jade Empire got it's own section in the Edmonton journal the other day, and the CEO's of bioware were on the news.

OB1 Wrote:HA! Then why did you say "So, to answer your question, I don't have Jade Empire yet."?? HUH? HUH??!!!


HAHAHAAAA!!!


I'm the winner!

A winner is you!

I must have used my mental powers to predict what you were trying to ask so I was merely answering the question I thought you wanted to ask. You then yelled at me for not answering your question even though you posted no question in this thread. My mental powers aren't foolproof so I don't think you can blame me for not answering your nonexistent question.

watch me! i just did it! like TEN TIMES!!! TIMES TEN!!!!



Ok, so you guys want impressions? Here are some brief ones:


On the positive side:

-Amazing graphics. The art is incredible, sooooo much better than the bland KOTOR. On par with Fable in terms of RPG visuals. Some of the environments make you wish you could jump into the game and just sit there for ever.

-Combat system is fun and doesn't get old.

-Load times are better than KOTOR's.

-Environments are much bigger than KOTOR's.


And on the negative side:

-Lack of customization! They took away some of the cool stuff you'd come to expect from a Bioware game. Can't change the appearance of your character at all. Can't even go nekkid!

-The voice acting sounds extremely out of place. American English with sometimes strange grammar in ancient China? Ugh. And the second made-up language sounds almost as bad as the dinosaur talk in SFA. The acting is solid, but it's very out of place. If you have a game take place in China, use Mandarin or Cantonese! Are gamers really too dumb to read subtitles? I don't think so!

-The story doesn't interest me at all.

-Not enough interaction/freedom. Not really any less than KOTOR, but I always love more freedom... damn I can't wait until Elderscrolls IV comes out.


Overall I like the game a lot, but I haven't made up my mind just how much.

Most people don't want to listen to foreign languages, OB1. You just have to accept that (and be sad). I wish japanese games would come with both the English and original Japanese tracks, for instance... it's annoying sometimes when they don't, if the English is bad. But no, we wouldn't want that... one of the few games I can think of that did give you a choice was Shogun: Total War, and that game was developed in England... :)

Well it is MADE in America, what did you expect as far as the language? It's easier to write something in a language you are fluent in. I don't need to hear those languages, and functionally, it's better :D. FUNCTION OVER FORM! ... Yeah... As for the made up language, eh, no matter. Star Wars made up languages suck too. Achuta indeed.

Customizing... There really wasn't much of that in KOTOR anyway. You could pick a head, that's about it. Yeah, outfits changed your appearence. That was nice, but when you pick your equipment based on it's stats, not it's looks, then in the end my people really didn't look anything like what I would have wanted. Nice, but not needed. And, I don't remember ever going naked before... I'm fairly certain there was some baseline outfit everyone had.

As for the story, they are going for "stereotypical", and that's what we got... Nothing much more to say there...

Shogun is a Western game and has a Japanese voice option, but it's a strategy game so teh volume of speech in the game is probably a lot less than a big RPG like Jade Empire... and sadly, the other Total War games don't have other voice options (Rome should have a Latin choice, darnit! :) I mean, I can understand not doing one in Medieval because of the sheer number of languages, but Rome?)

DJ, KotOR had customizing. You chose a head, yes... but then you could choose equipment, and that equipment is reflected on what you see on screen. Jade Empire, or so I've heard, has no inventory... and thus no changing of what your character is wearing.

Oh, I've heard the "no inventory is better than the horrible inventory "system" in KotOR (from the Obsidian forums)", and they're right about how awful KotOR's inventory system is, but... it's better than nothing...

As for "naked", there's almost always a baseline outfit. That would just refer to removing all other clothes and having the baseline as your clothes... unless you're playing Daggerfall, in which case if you take off your clothes your character is actually naked. But in every other game in the world, your character(s) are either in clothes or underwear.

I did mention the equipment thing already. It's nice, but as I said, when your equipment also picks your stats, then well, stats over looks.

Right, by naked I meant in your undies. It was fun to do in KOTOR and Fable because of all of the funny reactions you'd get from people.

DJ, you don't need to understand a foreign language in order to write a game script for one. There are neat people called translators who do that work for you. And believe it or not, but in America it's actually pretty easy to find Mandarin actors for whatever purpose, or they could have just gotten the voices done in China, which probably would have been cheap. This is Microsoft. They're kind of a big publisher.

"Functionally" it's better? That's nonsense. You're always reading subtitles in games anyhow, so even the most uncultured of gamers would have no problem with that. The American voices in Jade Empire take all seriousness out of the game.

Agreed.

...I guess? I think you are taking it too seriously OB1. It doesn't matter really. I can see going for "realism" or whatever, but um, they sort of threw that out the window with the entire premise. Mood, yeah I suppose, but it's fine without it. English or not, it's not a problem. The only way they could have done away with all the seriousness as you put it is by making everyone speak like... Spanish or something...

And, it's not as though this isn't some new thing. Metal Gear, in it's original Japanese, has Japanese voice actors. Star Wars, well, the idea that the entire galaxy would speak "galactic basic", a language surprisingly similar to English, isn't exactly the most logical thing (but hey, that applies to pretty much every single fictional world that, by all rights, has a VERY low chance of speaking your language at all, something like in the googilians). However, it's fine, because that's the language the writers know best and it's the one they have to work with. Sure, they could hire translators, but how accurate could it be? The job the English voice actors did seems fine to me. Don't get me wrong, mood is nice. For the sake of mood, a totally new language in Star Wars, or for the Japanese, using english voice actors, is a great thing. However, hearing the language you speak instead of having to read along has it's own advantages. I wouldn't really say anything if the game was made in China or by Chinese writers. For example, I wouldn't mind it if the Shenmu series kept the Japanese voice acting (odd that everyone the main character in that game meets speaks his own language don't you think?), as that was the originally intended way to go throug it. But, english speaking isn't just for stupid people. There's a good reason, a psychological thing, to want to hear people speak in your own native tongue. So, when a game is made by English speaking people, I think it's fully understandable that, even though in the sense of the place, it doesn't really "make sense" that they are speaking English, you can pretty much put that aside and just think "they are speaking Chinese here, this is just me like "knowing" their language". I really don't see the problem. It may not make sense, but it just seems the natural choice to do this. Apparently they agreed.

Truly, I really don't see this as a problem at all. This is done all the time. It's nothing new. It's standard fare in fictional worlds to just make them all speak the language of the writers. Star Trek, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, pretty much every RPG I've ever played... There is no real reason to make an exception just because this is based on Chinese legend, set in mythical China.

It works in LOTR because that's basically supposed to be medieval England in a fantasy setting. And it works in Star Wars because there are no rules. But in a game that takes place in ancient China (as fantastical as it is)? Hearing American English sounds absolutely ridiculous.

Quote:There's a good reason, a psychological thing, to want to hear people speak in your own native tongue

Yeah, and that's because people like to be able to understand other people. In a game (or movie), however, subtitles are available.

I think you've already mentioned that you wouldn't mind if all foreign movies were dubbed in English though, right? Unfortunately that seems to be what nearly everyone our uncultured society wants as well.

star Wars is funny... English speech, but with alien characters... :)

Quote:I think you've already mentioned that you wouldn't mind if all foreign movies were dubbed in English though, right? Unfortunately that seems to be what nearly everyone our uncultured society wants as well.

If all the translations were perfect and the actors were just as good I wouldn't mind as much, but that's never true... and some things just work better in their native language.

As for this being just like Americans... well, all societies like their own society. But yes, America probably is more distinctly anti-understanding-others than most nations... between our history, the "we are far away from them, why should we have to understand them?', etc... America and appreciating world culture haven't mixed very well, historically.

But even so, there's a reason movies get dubbed into many languages -- most people prefer the easy thing: hearing a language they understand.

Yes, because they're too lazy to read subtitles. And they're xenophobes. The less foreign things appear, the better.

Quote:Yes, because they're too lazy to read subtitles. And they're xenophobes. The less foreign things appear, the better.

These things seem to be human nature, sadly... some places to a somewhat lesser extent than others, but common everywhere in the majority of people.

Well I'm not entirely sure of that... Most people I talk to seem very open to other cultures, or to put it another way, they really like to make themselves seem more open then other people at any opportunity.

Allow me to put it this way. Let's say I was writing a play about Julius Caeser. I might write the whole thing in the language of the time and just show a bunch of poster boards over the whole play people could read. Or, since I speak English, I would just write the whole thing in THAT, except like maybe some cool phrase during the murder scene that everyone would be quoting at the water well at the office the next day or something. As ABF pointed out, translations aren't perfect. If they decided to have someone translate their english script into Chinese, it wouldn't be perfect.

And I must add, this is not new at all. It's done all the time, and has been since like... forever. Who cares?

No, xenophobia is definitely one of the most common things to any human society. DJ, do you know much about history? Between this and that other thread, I'm left being doubtful... eh, current events would work too -- ever heard of what Europe or Japan think of immigration? That is, the xenophobes here (the Pat Buchanan types) are hardly alone. It's common everywhere... very common. Think about it: how many wars are caused by people who dislike eachother because their cultures are different, and not for some other reason? How often is persecution because of culture or looks? Racism, sexism, the Nazis, etc, etc, etc... it's all because humanity is wired to think of the group the individual is in as the best group. This has some good ramifications, but plenty of bad ones as well...

What no comment on the rest of it? And besides, ask anyone I know if they hate other cultures, they say no.

I added to the post. (and this one too)

You don't need to say "I hate other cultures" to be at least somewhat xenophobic. No, that is not it. What it is is "I think my culture is the best". That's the key. "I think my culture is the best"... and I think all other cultures should be more like mine? I think you can figure out where this leads.

Well it may be possible that some cultures ARE better than others, at least in a logical sense some viewpoints don't self contradict and others do.

And you still didn't respond to the rest of my post...

Quote:Well it may be possible that some cultures ARE better than others, at least in a logical sense some viewpoints don't self contradict and others do.

Maybe in some cases (the Aztecs were wrong to have human sacrifice as a major aspect of their society.), but for modern western cultures? Not true to any mentionable degree in most respects... sure, each culture has its flaws, but it's got it's good points too, and no culture is perfect.

Quote:And you still didn't respond to the rest of my post...

What, this? Not much to say...

Quote:Allow me to put it this way. Let's say I was writing a play about Julius Caeser. I might write the whole thing in the language of the time and just show a bunch of poster boards over the whole play people could read. Or, since I speak English, I would just write the whole thing in THAT, except like maybe some cool phrase during the murder scene that everyone would be quoting at the water well at the office the next day or something. As ABF pointed out, translations aren't perfect. If they decided to have someone translate their english script into Chinese, it wouldn't be perfect.

It's definitely easier to use your own language, and will lead to fewer translation errors. But that isn't the point here. Accuracy is. If you're doing a story set in Shakesperean England, it'd be more accurate to use that style of speech (or look at other playwrights of the period and compare them to see if they use similar or other speech patterns and come to some conclusion about what "Shakesperean" English was...). Look at Eternal Darkness -- I'd have LOVED if the whole game was, like the first few lines, in the actual languages those people used... it felt cheap that they went to English so fast and stayed there.

Quote:And I must add, this is not new at all. It's done all the time, and has been since like... forever. Who cares?

Because it's annoying and unfair, to both our culture and theirs. We've made progress (witness how anime DVDs come with the japanese language tracks), but we're not there yet...

Xenophobia is of course not limited to the United States, but it is definitely much, much stronger here than it is in say, Europe where there is an actual sense of world community. That is a very foreign concept in the U.S. And if you've always lived in the same place your entire life, never set foot out of the country, then that sense is going to be even stronger. The key here is conformity. Like you've been saying, DJ, you would rather see a culture conform to something you are familiar with than accept its differences. Sure you may like some neat things about other cultures, but the more similar it is, the better. I'm the exact opposite. The more different, the better. I like to learn about and experience as many different cultures as I can. I see the beauty in diversity. I love hearing other languages, be it Japanese, French, Italian, Korean, Cantonese, whatever. Language is a very important part of culture, and when you make that conform to your own culture you lose a lot of what makes that other culture unique. I think it's bad to cater to the lowest common denominator. I find it very unfortunate that most people like to avoid foreign things as much as possible.

You're mostly right, OB1... I'd just be a bit more hesitant about Europe (and human nature in general, by extension -- sure, they like eachother well enough, but people from third-world nations? Those people they aren't as big fans of... that is, they may spend money to help them in their own nations, but they also do their best to limit immigration. Racial purity and all that... Europe has much more xenophobic immigration laws than, say, the US. But that's explained by history... they are mostly single-culture societies, while we are a nation built by immigrants, and the majority isn't in favor of shutting that down. Things are different in Europe (or Japan) where that is not the case.

But other than that... yes, you're right.

At first I always watched movies with the English track no matter where it was from or what language it was originally in, but now I almost always watch stuff in its original language. Mostly because the original langauge track sounds like a million times better than the English track.

Woah OB1, you assume too much. When did I ever say I prefer it when my entertainment uses stuff as close to America as possible? I enjoy looking at a lot of what other cultures believe and such. It interests me.

And oh yes ABF, my point was more that Julius Caeser was a play that may as well have been written in the language of the culture it was based on. Julius Caeser, even in Shakespear's time, wasn't exactly a current event you know. It's not like all past events occured at the same time, "in the past". He actually chose to do the play in english.

The point is they really shouldn't be expected to use such an incredible amount of time and resources on something so minor just for mood. With a LOT of work, they could get a mostly right translation (though humor would be the first thing lost in translation), but it's not WORTH it. It's just something minor really. Not a big deal. I see your point about it being a part of their culture though. There are things that are hard to translate. But, a translation of an English script into Chinese really wouldn't do it proper justice anyway, so why bother?

Listen, when writers make these choices, it's not some huge ethical thing as you think. It all just comes down to resources and whether the end payoff is worth it or if it's just a waste of time that only a few will appreciate. In this case, it's the latter. Writers do try to tell their stories to an audience after all. They have to make it something they can relate to, and part of that is language. Writers through history have known this for a long time, this isn't some new thing.

I won't go on beyond that. I understand your point of view. For you, any sort of change when someone is attempting to present a culture is harmful, demeaning it somewhat. (Notice the very Japanese looking Death's Hand guy?) But, for me, I really can't expect 100% accuracy, nor do I truly desire it. I suppose it's all a matter of how important it is to you. At any rate, I don't think our Chinese friends are going to be offended by it.

Quote:Woah OB1, you assume too much. When did I ever say I prefer it when my entertainment uses stuff as close to America as possible? I enjoy looking at a lot of what other cultures believe and such. It interests me.

You have implied so yourself many times.

Quote:And oh yes ABF, my point was more that Julius Caeser was a play that may as well have been written in the language of the culture it was based on. Julius Caeser, even in Shakespear's time, wasn't exactly a current event you know. It's not like all past events occured at the same time, "in the past". He actually chose to do the play in english.

"Julius Caesar" (the play) was "about" Julius Caesar, but as with most things, it's probably more about the culture it was created in than the one it attempts to recreate... so it's a 16th century England version of the Roman Republic. Innaccurate? Yes, if you go in assuming it to be trying to be perfect history... but that's not the goal, entertainment is. And people are more comfortable with what is familiar.

Quote:The point is they really shouldn't be expected to use such an incredible amount of time and resources on something so minor just for mood. With a LOT of work, they could get a mostly right translation (though humor would be the first thing lost in translation), but it's not WORTH it. It's just something minor really. Not a big deal. I see your point about it being a part of their culture though. There are things that are hard to translate. But, a translation of an English script into Chinese really wouldn't do it proper justice anyway, so why bother?

Your minimizing it proves OB1 and me correct, you know... it's more important than you imply. Accuracy is good, the more the better, in most cases (that is, unless your goal is unreality)...

I would love for games like Jade Empire to be dubbed, but, especially seeing as the game originated in the U.S., we are not going to see that happen for the vast majority of games. DJ explained it well saying that it all comes down to resources. Publishers are spending millions on these games and do you think they would spend a few thousand (hundred thousand?) more to dub a game in the appropriate language? The fact is the videogame industry is all about the Benjamins, and most people wouldn't want a dubbed game so it would be stupid for them to make one. If they created a game with both a dubbed and English version they would be spending money and wasting space on a feature very few people would take advantage of. We can't deny that most people embrace their own culture and are wary of trying out different cultures so I don't see this changing anytime soon.

A Black Falcon Wrote:Your minimizing it proves OB1 and me correct, you know... it's more important than you imply. Accuracy is good, the more the better, in most cases (that is, unless your goal is unreality)...

Most games aren't going for 100% reality, so even though most companies will try to make their games as realistic as possible, they won't do so if it means a greatly increased budget.

Remember, "Real" can mean "the real world" or "a comprehensive and consistent world following laws clearly different from the ones in our own"... under that definition, Eternal Darkness is realistic. :)

As for the money arguement, that doesn't explain not including Japanese sound tracks in Japanese games released in this country, you know.

Quote:Woah OB1, you assume too much. When did I ever say I prefer it when my entertainment uses stuff as close to America as possible? I enjoy looking at a lot of what other cultures believe and such. It interests me.

You said that you prefer dubs whenever possible. That's preferring your entertainment to be as close to American as possible.

Quote:And oh yes ABF, my point was more that Julius Caeser was a play that may as well have been written in the language of the culture it was based on. Julius Caeser, even in Shakespear's time, wasn't exactly a current event you know. It's not like all past events occured at the same time, "in the past". He actually chose to do the play in english.

You're comparing theater to movies and videogames? You can't exactly subtitle a play. ;)

Quote:The point is they really shouldn't be expected to use such an incredible amount of time and resources on something so minor just for mood.

Exactly my point, you see this as a "minor" thing. You don't seem to see the importance of language in cultures, and it appears to be all the same to you if it conforms to your culture.

Quote:With a LOT of work, they could get a mostly right translation (though humor would be the first thing lost in translation), but it's not WORTH it. It's just something minor really. Not a big deal. I see your point about it being a part of their culture though. There are things that are hard to translate. But, a translation of an English script into Chinese really wouldn't do it proper justice anyway, so why bother?

Poppycock! (I love that word) First of all it wouldn't be a lot of work. Not for Microsoft. They already translate their games into a dozen different languages, including voice work in many cases. And keeping the humor is a non-issue. You keep the English script, get it translated and voiced in another language, and there you have it. Simple. And a big deal. The whole point of voice acting is to immerse the player in the game, but when it's utterly ridiculous then what's the point?

Quote:Listen, when writers make these choices, it's not some huge ethical thing as you think. It all just comes down to resources and whether the end payoff is worth it or if it's just a waste of time that only a few will appreciate. In this case, it's the latter. Writers do try to tell their stories to an audience after all. They have to make it something they can relate to, and part of that is language. Writers through history have known this for a long time, this isn't some new thing.

I won't go on beyond that. I understand your point of view. For you, any sort of change when someone is attempting to present a culture is harmful, demeaning it somewhat. (Notice the very Japanese looking Death's Hand guy?) But, for me, I really can't expect 100% accuracy, nor do I truly desire it. I suppose it's all a matter of how important it is to you. At any rate, I don't think our Chinese friends are going to be offended by it.

Who's talking about ethics and offending people? I don't care what the Chinese think of Jade Empire. I care about the integrity of videogames as a whole, and I care about how much I can get into the experience. You lose all integrity in the work when you try to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Movies about Russian submarines where the entire crew speaks English in a Russian accent, or movies about ancient Rome where they speak in British English. How can these movies be taken seriously? I always laugh at such movies and pay no respect to them. For some people it makes sense, because they've lived their entire lives surrounding by a single language. So they don't even think about how silly it is. I don't ask for 100% accuracy, just 30%. And language takes up 70% in my book.


But hey, I'm not trying to force my opinion down your throat. If you don't feel this way then so be it, that's fine by me. I'm just defending my original criticism, which you contested.

Quote:I would love for games like Jade Empire to be dubbed, but, especially seeing as the game originated in the U.S., we are not going to see that happen for the vast majority of games. DJ explained it well saying that it all comes down to resources. Publishers are spending millions on these games and do you think they would spend a few thousand (hundred thousand?) more to dub a game in the appropriate language? The fact is the videogame industry is all about the Benjamins, and most people wouldn't want a dubbed game so it would be stupid for them to make one. If they created a game with both a dubbed and English version they would be spending money and wasting space on a feature very few people would take advantage of. We can't deny that most people embrace their own culture and are wary of trying out different cultures so I don't see this changing anytime soon.

Do you have any idea how cheap it would be to get Mandarin voice actors for the game? It would probably be even cheaper than getting professional American voice actors. So that's not an issue.

The real issue is the public, which I have stated is the case. Most people here are xenophobes, or are too lazy to read subtitles. It's very unfortunate.

Quote:Most games aren't going for 100% reality, so even though most companies will try to make their games as realistic as possible, they won't do so if it means a greatly increased budget.

You're saying the same thing DJ said. Who's asking for 100% realism? Jade Empire is fantasy. But it's a fantasy version of ancient China, and making everyone speak American English makes zero sense even within the context of this fantastical setting. To expand upon ABF's point, there needs to be realism within context. Like he said, ED is realistic. Fable is realistic. Jade Empire isn't realistic within its own absurd context.

A Black Falcon Wrote:You're mostly right, OB1... I'd just be a bit more hesitant about Europe (and human nature in general, by extension -- sure, they like eachother well enough, but people from third-world nations? Those people they aren't as big fans of... that is, they may spend money to help them in their own nations, but they also do their best to limit immigration. Racial purity and all that... Europe has much more xenophobic immigration laws than, say, the US. But that's explained by history... they are mostly single-culture societies, while we are a nation built by immigrants, and the majority isn't in favor of shutting that down. Things are different in Europe (or Japan) where that is not the case.

But other than that... yes, you're right.

Well, immigration laws in Europe have become more strict in recent years because 9/11 and the terrorist attacks in Spain. It's much more difficult to move to Holland now than it was just five years ago, for instance. But there's definitely far, far less xenophobia in Europe than in the U.S. You'll find movies from all over the world doing well in just about every country in Europe, and people being much more open to different cultures than they are over here. The EU has strengthened this sense of diversity of community even further.

Quote:Well, immigration laws in Europe have become more strict in recent years because 9/11 and the terrorist attacks in Spain. It's much more difficult to move to Holland now than it was just five years ago, for instance. But there's definitely far, far less xenophobia in Europe than in the U.S. You'll find movies from all over the world doing well in just about every country in Europe, and people being much more open to different cultures than they are over here. The EU has strengthened this sense of diversity of community even further.

Definitely, within the EU... the countries of Europe are pretty understanding with eachother. It's the countries who want to send people to Europe that they have problems with. :) The main issue right now is probably Muslims... lots of them want to immigrate to Europe and the Europeans don't really want them to come. They'll do it in a way that is probably less overtly xenophobic than Americans generally are (and sure, they might well watch movies from Africa with much more willingness than we will. They are more accepting of other cultures, after all.), that is true, but results are results... and it says that it's not an unqualified win for them.

Quote:You said that you prefer dubs whenever possible. That's preferring your entertainment to be as close to American as possible.

Not quite, I think... if you wanted it as close to American as possible you probably just wouldn't watch anime. So it's more diverse than 'as close as possible'. Dubbed anime is, usually, still anime... but yes, it is putting it into a form that is more acceptable to mainstream American culture.

Quote:Exactly my point, you see this as a "minor" thing. You don't seem to see the importance of language in cultures, and it appears to be all the same to you if it conforms to your culture.

Pretty much what I said. :)

Quote:Poppycock! (I love that word) First of all it wouldn't be a lot of work. Not for Microsoft. They already translate their games into a dozen different languages, including voice work in many cases. And keeping the humor is a non-issue. You keep the English script, get it translated and voiced in another language, and there you have it. Simple. And a big deal. The whole point of voice acting is to immerse the player in the game, but when it's utterly ridiculous then what's the point?

Actually, that's a good point: humor. Or, more appropriately, societal context (humor, allegory, cultural references, etc). When anime is translated, the humor is often some of the hardest part to translate... either you need explanation subtitles to explain the subtitles or you change the jokes to something someone in the target culture would understand... but changing the jokes doesn't work with subs, just dubs.

Anyway, my point. In the case of a game, would it make sense to make the game in nation Y, for nation Y, set in nation X, in the language of nation X... but with a script written for nation Y audiences? Seems like it could be a bit weird, if you think about it... and I could never expect a writing team in nation Y to be able to write something that fully understands and is set in nation X's culture. The best they could do is what they think nation X's culture is like... I guess that'd have to be good enough. If you've got good enough writers it should work (and Bioware does).

Quote:Who's talking about ethics and offending people? I don't care what the Chinese think of Jade Empire. I care about the integrity of videogames as a whole, and I care about how much I can get into the experience. You lose all integrity in the work when you try to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Movies about Russian submarines where the entire crew speaks English in a Russian accent, or movies about ancient Rome where they speak in British English. How can these movies be taken seriously? I always laugh at such movies and pay no respect to them. For some people it makes sense, because they've lived their entire lives surrounding by a single language. So they don't even think about how silly it is. I don't ask for 100% accuracy, just 30%. And language takes up 70% in my book.


But hey, I'm not trying to force my opinion down your throat. If you don't feel this way then so be it, that's fine by me. I'm just defending my original criticism, which you contested.

I don't feel quite as strongly about it as you do... I mean, it is funny when a crew of a German submarine speaks with British accents. It's annoying. You've just got to get used to it and ignore it... which can be done, I'd say. You can get engrossed. But of course it'd be even better if it had been in German.

Quote:You're saying the same thing DJ said. Who's asking for 100% realism? Jade Empire is fantasy. But it's a fantasy version of ancient China, and making everyone speak American English makes zero sense even within the context of this fantastical setting. To expand upon ABF's point, there needs to be realism within context. Like he said, ED is realistic. Fable is realistic. Jade Empire isn't realistic within its own absurd context.

As I just said, I wouldn't go that far. You can have realism with false aspects if you just learn to accept the unrealistic aspects... it doesn't totally ruin it for me -- I loved ED despite the flaw of it being 99% in English, for instance. So I'd be a bit more qualified, while agreeing that it hurts the realism.

Quote:Definitely, within the EU... the countries of Europe are pretty understanding with eachother. It's the countries who want to send people to Europe that they have problems with. The main issue right now is probably Muslims... lots of them want to immigrate to Europe and the Europeans don't really want them to come. They'll do it in a way that is probably less overtly xenophobic than Americans generally are (and sure, they might well watch movies from Africa with much more willingness than we will. They are more accepting of other cultures, after all.), that is true, but results are results... and it says that it's not an unqualified win for them.

Yes that's true, though I blame that more on the fact that people associate terrorism with Islam.

Quote:Not quite, I think... if you wanted it as close to American as possible you probably just wouldn't watch anime. So it's more diverse than 'as close as possible'. Dubbed anime is, usually, still anime... but yes, it is putting it into a form that is more acceptable to mainstream American culture.

Which is why I said conforming to. ;)

Quote:Actually, that's a good point: humor. Or, more appropriately, societal context (humor, allegory, cultural references, etc). When anime is translated, the humor is often some of the hardest part to translate... either you need explanation subtitles to explain the subtitles or you change the jokes to something someone in the target culture would understand... but changing the jokes doesn't work with subs, just dubs.

Anyway, my point. In the case of a game, would it make sense to make the game in nation Y, for nation Y, set in nation X, in the language of nation X... but with a script written for nation Y audiences? Seems like it could be a bit weird, if you think about it... and I could never expect a writing team in nation Y to be able to write something that fully understands and is set in nation X's culture. The best they could do is what they think nation X's culture is like... I guess that'd have to be good enough. If you've got good enough writers it should work (and Bioware does).

Well just do what I suggested, keep the original English script for subtitles. Simple.

Quote:I don't feel quite as strongly about it as you do... I mean, it is funny when a crew of a German submarine speaks with British accents. It's annoying. You've just got to get used to it and ignore it... which can be done, I'd say. You can get engrossed. But of course it'd be even better if it had been in German.

It's very distracting for me.

Quote:As I just said, I wouldn't go that far. You can have realism with false aspects if you just learn to accept the unrealistic aspects... it doesn't totally ruin it for me -- I loved ED despite the flaw of it being 99% in English, for instance. So I'd be a bit more qualified, while agreeing that it hurts the realism.

At least in ED that transition from the original language to English, like as if there were Trek-like translators at work. Heh. Not very realistic, but it also wasn't a huge RPG with tons of voicework.

I think I have made my point clear. You think it's a major issue. Nothing wrong with that really, though as you have said you are willingly refusing to take any story seriously merley because they want you to focus on the stuff going on in the scene rather than subtitles. The idea is that they ARE speaking their native tongue, it's just that you have a universal translator in your head so you understand what they are saying. None of these instances are actually trying to say they really ARE speaking english. I've never taken it that way. It's just not that big a deal to me. Listen, if I KNEW other languages, I would ALWAYS prefer all my entertainment in the originally written language instead of a translation, but I don't, so it's nice to have the translation as something I can just listen to, especially during battle when I can't afford to take a split second to read something. No matter, I've said what I have to say. I don't mean to say you shouldn't love the study of language. I merely mean to explain the reasons behind such things and why I consider it acceptable and something easily ignored.

But none of that matters right now... I have started an argument between you two. My job is done *flutters away*.

Quote:Which is why I said conforming to.

Anime still has themes you don't see in traditionally American stuff when presented in English.

Quote:Yes that's true, though I blame that more on the fact that people associate terrorism with Islam.

This is true... and is mostly not fair. But really, for Europe it's not just terrorism. It's also fears of their unique cultural identities being consumed under floods of immigrants... so they will keep out immigrants, even if the result is a low birthrate and dropping population. (as I said, this is the one problem the US doesn't have.)

Quote:Well just do what I suggested, keep the original English script for subtitles. Simple.

Uh... how does that solve the issue? What would the people be speaking, then? I'd expect the words on the bottom would be what is being said... this is one reason why some people prefer dubbed anime -- it changes most of those Japanese references into recognizable ones. The subbed version generally will not, to be more accurate... sometimes you get a choice, so it can be subbed in either version, but not usually... I'm not saying it should be done in English, but it's a more complex issue when the culture in question is not the one the developers are from.

Quote:At least in ED that transition from the original language to English, like as if there were Trek-like translators at work. Heh. Not very realistic, but it also wasn't a huge RPG with tons of voicework.

Stupid Star Trek translators! If it was really being "translated" their mouths would move LIKE THEY WOULD IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE... :) Definitely not very realistic. But yes, at least ED made the small effort to transition into English. It goes with the high attention to historical detail that game shows.

Quote:I think I have made my point clear. You think it's a major issue. Nothing wrong with that really, though as you have said you are willingly refusing to take any story seriously merley because they want you to focus on the stuff going on in the scene rather than subtitles. The idea is that they ARE speaking their native tongue, it's just that you have a universal translator in your head so you understand what they are saying. None of these instances are actually trying to say they really ARE speaking english. I've never taken it that way. It's just not that big a deal to me. Listen, if I KNEW other languages, I would ALWAYS prefer all my entertainment in the originally written language instead of a translation, but I don't, so it's nice to have the translation as something I can just listen to, especially during battle when I can't afford to take a split second to read something. No matter, I've said what I have to say. I don't mean to say you shouldn't love the study of language. I merely mean to explain the reasons behind such things and why I consider it acceptable and something easily ignored.

Um... as we have said, many times, it's called "subtitles". It makes it irrelevant that you can't understand the spoken language. What is it that makes it so hard for you to accept the concept that you don't have to understand every word that the people are saying? Isn't the written words on the screen that transcribe everything they are saying (while you take emphasis, emotion, etc from the spoken words -- easy enough, quickly) more than good enough? Yet you continue to say this... puzzling.

If you wanted a better argument, you could say 'I don't like reading subtitles'. This one I've heard before, and can accept... I disagree, but at least it's a valid point. "If I knew other languages I'd use them" isn't. If that's what you think, you're missing the whole point of our position, it seems to me. Why do you need to understand the spoken language for you to want to use it as the audio track? The only reason I can think of is if you dislike reading subtitles... but you haven't cited that as your reason, so I'm just left confused.

You are right that it's assumed that there are translators and that they're "really" speaking their real languages, but this gets kind of forgotten when they're speaking colloquial English, you know... I know, it's very hard for someone to write accurately as if they are someone of a different culture. Very hard. So I consider this at least somewhat excusable. But even so, it's there.

Quote:But none of that matters right now... I have started an argument between you two. My job is done *flutters away*.

Nope. "Argument" requires opposing positions. We agree on at least 90% of this issue. So it's not an argument. It's a discussion. :) There's an important difference there. You're the one with the contrary opinion, not us...

Yes, the effect was nice, but of course now no one can use it again because it's been done before and it's too... nichy... I don't know the word for it... It would be like using Star Wars screen swipes in every movie from now on just because it worked great for them or something...

So, just put it in your head from the start that hey, they ARE speaking their original language, I'm just a genius.

Added a reply to your last post in my previous one. :) Go back and read it.

Quote:Yes, the effect was nice, but of course now no one can use it again because it's been done before and it's too... nichy... I don't know the word for it... It would be like using Star Wars screen swipes in every movie from now on just because it worked great for them or something...

So, just put it in your head from the start that hey, they ARE speaking their original language, I'm just a genius.

Talking about Star Trek, I presume... what do you mean, no one can use it again? Now, it is true that it's common now to have aliens speak made up "alien" languages just like subtitled foreign languages are more common in some movies and TV shows for the foriegn people or people in foreign locations. But really, it's still very common in scifi to have aliens inexplicably (or barely explicably) all speak English (if perhaps with an accent of some kind)...

...no...

I was talking about Eternal Darkness.

Anyway, there is one other thing. OB1, you seem to not understand the details of the translating issues. Bringing their games to other countries, yes they do that, but that doesn't apply here, because that is done after the original language version is released. Now, why not do it DURING? Why don't they do such things during any game's creation? Well, they have a deadline to keep, for one. This is a very important point. To delay it for several months to translate it would alienate a lot of people, and more than that, it would result in a lot of lost sales, for very little gain. They've dropped actual gameplay features for less of a time delay than that. Further, to actually translate the script side by side with the script writer just doesn't work. You've read the interviews on IGN before, scripts are rewritten countless times during game creation. All the work translating it bit by bit would be lost, and that's lost effort on the part of the hired work and lost money on the part of the ones hiring them. Just not a good idea... It's the details of creating the game, that's the issue.

And perhaps you misunderstand me ABF. Regarding subtitles, a lot of the time, it's not a big deal, but sometimes, things pop up. In a game specifically, a lot of the time characters will shout things at me. The entire point of the character shouting stuff is so I don't have to read something and possibly die. So, they better say "watch out for the cannon!" in english so I know what the heck they are saying. As for emotion and tone, well, that's troublesome too. Since language is more than just word definitions, but grammar too, sometimes there is the issue of matching their tones to what the translation on the bottom of the screen is. If, for example, turning something into english means putting the beginning of their sentence at the end of our's, this can cause problems. I might end up wondering why he just screamed when he said his mother's name, if that would also make sense in such a scene. Again, too much effort to do something minor.

Remember, this ENTIRE time I only wish to express why an english writer would prefer to write a story in english. When it comes to a story written originally in another language, that's another matter completely. Why bother bringing that up? I've talked about it before. And, one last thing, is this a double standard, or is Hideo Kojima also simply catering to the lowest common denominator (that's a frickin' MATH term and all it is in fact equal in value to the highest common denominator, what the heck were they thinking using that as an expression?) when he makes Metal Gear games using Japanese voice actors for the Japanese version? I should hope you hate that too, when all the characters speak english or Japanese despite their nationality.

But, no matter. OB1, I've said what I will. Please do not be so insulting or confrontational. All I did was say something contrary and attempt to explain why some would disagree. This is not something that is simply black and white. This sort of thing really comes down to a lot of things and a blanket answer doesn't fit. There are advantages and disadvanteges to both ways of doing this. To you, one of the advantages cleraly outweighs the rest, but that is not so for a lot of people, and they are not wrong or close minded idiots for thinking so.d There is a lot more I wanted to add here regarding translation in general, but I honestly don't think even what I've said here will be listened to, and I may have offended.

I guess I'll just go.

Quote:I think I have made my point clear. You think it's a major issue. Nothing wrong with that really, though as you have said you are willingly refusing to take any story seriously merley because they want you to focus on the stuff going on in the scene rather than subtitles. The idea is that they ARE speaking their native tongue, it's just that you have a universal translator in your head so you understand what they are saying. None of these instances are actually trying to say they really ARE speaking english. I've never taken it that way. It's just not that big a deal to me. Listen, if I KNEW other languages, I would ALWAYS prefer all my entertainment in the originally written language instead of a translation, but I don't, so it's nice to have the translation as something I can just listen to, especially during battle when I can't afford to take a split second to read something. No matter, I've said what I have to say. I don't mean to say you shouldn't love the study of language. I merely mean to explain the reasons behind such things and why I consider it acceptable and something easily ignored.

I don't know a billion other languages, and reading subtitles is very easy. But if you're fine with being pandered to, by all means...

Quote:But none of that matters right now... I have started an argument between you two. My job is done *flutters away*.

Um, did you even read our posts? Just because we're quoting each other doesn't mean that we're arguing. You are so weird, DJ.

Quote:Anyway, there is one other thing. OB1, you seem to not understand the details of the translating issues. Bringing their games to other countries, yes they do that, but that doesn't apply here, because that is done after the original language version is released. Now, why not do it DURING? Why don't they do such things during any game's creation? Well, they have a deadline to keep, for one. This is a very important point. To delay it for several months to translate it would alienate a lot of people, and more than that, it would result in a lot of lost sales, for very little gain. They've dropped actual gameplay features for less of a time delay than that. Further, to actually translate the script side by side with the script writer just doesn't work. You've read the interviews on IGN before, scripts are rewritten countless times during game creation. All the work translating it bit by bit would be lost, and that's lost effort on the part of the hired work and lost money on the part of the ones hiring them. Just not a good idea... It's the details of creating the game, that's the issue.

It might take longer to do (until a more efficient method is developed), but quality almost always takes more time. It would not be nearly as severe as you describe, however.

Quote:Remember, this ENTIRE time I only wish to express why an english writer would prefer to write a story in english. When it comes to a story written originally in another language, that's another matter completely. Why bother bringing that up? I've talked about it before. And, one last thing, is this a double standard, or is Hideo Kojima also simply catering to the lowest common denominator (that's a frickin' MATH term and all it is in fact equal in value to the highest common denominator, what the heck were they thinking using that as an expression?) when he makes Metal Gear games using Japanese voice actors for the Japanese version? I should hope you hate that too, when all the characters speak english or Japanese despite their nationality.

Konami does the same thing Microsoft did. Metal Gear sounds very funny in Japanese.

Quote:But, no matter. OB1, I've said what I will. Please do not be so insulting or confrontational. All I did was say something contrary and attempt to explain why some would disagree. This is not something that is simply black and white. This sort of thing really comes down to a lot of things and a blanket answer doesn't fit. There are advantages and disadvanteges to both ways of doing this. To you, one of the advantages cleraly outweighs the rest, but that is not so for a lot of people, and they are not wrong or close minded idiots for thinking so.d There is a lot more I wanted to add here regarding translation in general, but I honestly don't think even what I've said here will be listened to, and I may have offended.

Insulting? Confrontational? DJ, just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that they are insulting and/or being confrontational. You need to learn this.