Tendo City

Both are equally awesome.

The Samurai were taught just about everything that the ninja were and then a whole lot more. They were warriors, soldiers of the Japanese Empire for hundreds of years and were the most disciplines martial artists in the country, learning everything from kendo and jujitsu, to ninjitsu and karate, just to name a few. During the Tokugawa Era (approx. 1603-1868) when many Samurai were lest masterless (they then became Ronin), it was the wandering Samurai that was most feared/saught after (by both the Yakuza and the Daimyo, among other groups of people who needed protection or muscle); not the Ninja. In real life there would be no contest whatsoever.

The Ninja were assasins who had to stay in the shadows in order to be effective. They were popularized in the United States because of their appearance and by countless horrible tv shows and movies, and most people (in the U.S.) are unaware of their inferiority to the Samurai. In Japan, the jidai-geki (period drama) and chambara (sword-fighting) are among the most popular and oldest genres of television and cinema. Some of the oldest and greatest Japanese novels are also about the Samurai (Genji, Musashi Miyamoto). In terms of film, there are maybe a handful of decent Ninja movies out there, but literally hundreds of good-to-superb Samurai movies (among which is Seven Samurai, widely considered to be the greatest film ever made).

So yeah the Samurai are a hellovalot better. :)

The Samurai would win in a fight. Unless the Ninja got word of the fight beforehand and asassinated the Samurai the night before. :)

Haha, only if the Samurai were asleep. And wounded. And dead.

Ninjas are stealthy... the Samurai would probably not see him coming. :)

If the samurai were getting ready to fight ninjas they'd probably be ready for an attack during the night.

A good Samurai is always on guard, even during sleep.

I just saw House of Flying Daggers today. Although I didn't like it quite as much as Hero, it was still a great movie...and it was really sad! :(

Well it is like a Verdi Opera: politics, love, and strong(and I mean strong) emotions. Some people are going to be turned off by it.

But yeah it wasn't quite as good as Hero.

.

Quote:Well it is like a Verdi Opera: politics, love, and strong(and I mean strong) emotions. Some people are going to be turned off by it.

I would say that it turned me off, necessarily, but its themes didn't appeal to me as much as the ones in Hero. Plus, Jet Li was really awesome in Hero. Still, HOFD had great visual imagery and was for the most part a great movie.

Samurai would win that, methinks. Unless the Ninjas had nuclear machine pistols--inwhich case, they'd win.

Well, anyone with nuclear machine pistols would win in a fight.

Great Rumbler Wrote:I would say that it turned me off, necessarily, but its themes didn't appeal to me as much as the ones in Hero. Plus, Jet Li was really awesome in Hero. Still, HOFD had great visual imagery and was for the most part a great movie.

Hero was a simple movie with gorgeous cinematography (by the always-amazing Christopher Doyle) and one kick-ass fight scene (the first one, btwn Jet Li and Donnie Yen). Probably the superior film overall, but HOFD is still very good if you know what it's trying to do. People expecting another Crouching Tiger or Hero are going to be dissapointed, no doubt.

Great Rumbler Wrote:Well, anyone with nuclear machine pistols would win in a fight.

Not if the other person had a nuclear-machine-gun-proof vest. I, personally, never leave home without mine. Look!

*rips open shirt, not wearing vest*

...

Oh, I said when I left home, I AM home!

But what if two ninjas were taped to a grizzly bear? I don't think I samurai could beat that...

I think that would make things more difficult for the ninjas and the bear.

Not necessarily. The bear could probel itself into the middle of a huge army and the ninjas could use their sharp swords to defeat the army from the back of bear. But probably wha would be better than that would be two robots taped to a vampire. I mean, just think about it.

The Samurai were trained to live an honorable lifestyle, the ninja however was taught to move and strike quick. Ninja wore no armor, where as the Samurai did. The ninja was specifically taught on ways to defeat the samurai in one on one combat, which is why the ninja clans were so successful. So Im going to stick with the Ninja.

As for Hero, it was a good movie, but Last Samurai was better (Im partial to real combat instead of supernatural fighting.)

Samurai only wore armor in battle. Otherwise they wore more comfortable and flexible clothing than ninjas did. Ninjas would never have any chance to defeat a Samurai in any instance other than cowardly stealth. They would have to hide in the shadows and throw projectiles at them, often when they were asleep. They were not as fast as the Samurai and would have zero chance against them in one-one combat. I don't know which Ninja Turtles episode you got your information from, but it's very much wrong. Ninjas are only popular in the U.S. because of their neat get-up and terrible 80's movies and tv shows. The reality is far less interesting and glamorous. There is a reason why ninjas had to use stealth, and it's not because they thought that black was "cool".

And The Last Samurai was a joke of a movie. It was Dances With Wolves in Japan and the most pretentious and historically inaccurate piece of Hollywood trash I've seen in years. If you want to watch a real Samurai movie watch Seven Samurai or Yojimbo.

You have no idea who you are dealing with.

1. The ninja inspired fear in his opponents, including samurai. It is very hard to fight an opponent who you are afraid of.

2. The Samurai wore their armor a better portion of the day with their armor on. They trained in it and praying in it, both taking a good deal of their day up.

3. Samurai are not faster, they use brawn to their advantage, Ninjas use speed.

4. A samurai knew only how to use several weapons, where as Ninjas were trained to use anything as a weapon. If a samurai was without a sword, he was a major disadvantage.

5. The ninja clans actually served under Samurai warlords in order to deal with enemies, and during this time the Ninja clans lost very few people.

6. The ninja clans were used up until the turn of the 20th century, when guns made then obsolete, the samurai lasted only until mid-18th, when most of then were either killed or merged with mordern society, teaching their children. Those principles would re-emerge right before world war 2.

Hahaha, of course not. You go back to watching American Ninja, kid.

You better go back and read my post, cause I changed it.

Oh and for the record I am physically and mentally older than you...son.

Quote:You have no idea who you are dealing with.

OMG I am so scared right now.

Quote: 1. The ninja inspired fear in his opponents, including samurai. It is very hard to fight an opponent who you are afraid of.

Yes, the warriors who ruled and defended the entire nation of Japan for over a millenia were afraid of guys in black tights. Thank you for your information!

Quote:2. The Samurai wore their armor a better portion of the day with their armor on. They trained in it and praying in it, both taking a good deal of their day up.

Firstly, nice grammar. I love your rebelious way of mixing past and present tenses. Mentally more mature indeed!

Allow me to educate you. Depending on which period in Japanese history we're talking about, the Samurai wore different types of clothing. And depending on which lord they served and if they were in battle or not, the clothing differs. But most of the time a Samurai would wear a simple kimono which usually consisted of two layers, as well a pair of sandals or wooden clogs. They would wear a kind of loincloth under their kimonos which kind of looked like big diapers, and would either have straw raincoats in case of bad whether or an extra layer of clothing that would also have a separate piece to cover the head. Ronin, or lordless Samurai, would dress in this fashion as well, just usually not quite as clean. I've no idea where you got the idea that they wore their armor all of the time (perhaps that crappy Last Samurai movie made you think that?), but mainly just those in battle or in guarding situations would wear any armor. Or the Lords themselves, for status purposes. And the Samurai armor, btw, was very light and flexible, especially when compared to European armor.

Quote: 3. Samurai are not faster, they use brawn to their advantage, Ninjas use speed.

What an idiotic claim. Are you trying to suggest that the Samurai learned a slower, more powerful type of sword fighting, or that they were somehow slower runners than ninjas? Are you yanking my chain here or something? Because I can't believe that someone who knows so little about this subject could be so confident in their false information. Kendo, a martial art of the Samurai sword, relies of quick and precise strikes to defeat the opponent. The katana is a very light sword that would not benefit from a lot of weight behind it. Speed and precision was key. I've taken kendo, so I know what I'm talking about. You do not.

Quote:4. A samurai knew only how to use several weapons, where as Ninjas were trained to use anything as a weapon. If a samurai was without a sword, he was a major disadvantage.

*sigh*

Have you ever heard of jujutsu before, little man? This martial arts form which dates back over two thousand years is one of many forms of fighting that every Samurai learned, and was spawned from many different weapons forms that used swords, spears, chains, staffs, daggers, and many other different kinds of weapons that the Samurai were taught to use. A Samurai was the deadliest kind of person in Japan whether they had a sword, spear, staff, or nothing.

You're really showing your knowledge on this subject.

Quote:5. The ninja clans actually served under Samurai warlords in order to deal with enemies, and during this time the Ninja clans lost very few people.

Sweet Jesus you really are getting all of your information from The Last Samurai! Go back to bed, kid.

Quote:6. The ninja clans were used up until the turn of the 20th century, when guns made then obsolete, the samurai lasted only until mid-18th, when most of then were either killed or merged with mordern society, teaching their children. Those principles would re-emerge right before world war 2.

Oh wow, where to start. The Samurai have existed as far back as 7th century, AD. The ninja weren't around for even a fraction of that time. The Samurai ruled Japan for much of its written history. The Ninja were cowardly assassins whose only method of fighting was by not letting their opponent see them for more than a second. And the end of the Samurai is dated in the 19th century, around the time of the Meiji Restoration. The wearing of swords didn't even become illegal until 1876.

Bubba, I suggest you stop before you make yourself look even more ignorant. It is you who has no idea who they are dealing with.

Sure, OB1, the Samurai ruled Japan for a long time. But during the Tokugawa Shogunate most Samurai weren't particularly good swordsmen... after all, there weren't really any battles of note. Most 'Samurai' during that period were administrators, nobles, etc. who were of a high enough class to be allowed to carry a sword... but were most of them actually great warriors? Nah. Maybe a few, but most just had the sword as a symbol of their authority... like being a knight in Europe, even if you're landless the fact you're a Samurai means you're better than some people. :)

Just because the Edo Period was relatively peacful doesn't mean that the Samurai were bad swordsmen. Whether in battle or not they would train just as hard as ever before. A war could break out at anytime. That's like suggesting that our military is incompetent when there isn't a war going on.

Now the actual lords and nobles are a different story in the Edo period, Samurai in name only in many cases. And it was during the later Edo period that the Samurai lost their masters and became Ronin.

Goron footsoldier > Ninjas &/or Samurais

Well you can't really beat rock people.

Quote:Just because the Edo Period was relatively peacful doesn't mean that the Samurai were bad swordsmen. Whether in battle or not they would train just as hard as ever before. A war could break out at anytime. That's like suggesting that our military is incompetent when there isn't a war going on.

Now the actual lords and nobles are a different story in the Edo period, Samurai in name only in many cases. And it was during the later Edo period that the Samurai lost their masters and became Ronin.

But the point is that most of the Samurai in the Tokugawa period weren't warriors. They did all kinds of jobs, but most weren't warriors... when you have over 200 years of peace the military side fades, of course. Most were lords, merchants, administrators... not fighters. 'Samurai' was just the class and didn't actually mean that they were warriors. It meant that once they had ancestors who were. :)

Sure, earlier Samurais were certainly great warriors. But in the 17 and 1800's? Not so much.

By the Tokugawa (or Edo) Period, it is true that a lot of people were Samurai in name only. I just said that. But there still existed the very same kind of Samurai that existed centuries before, and Ronin even in the early 20th century.

Not as many, though... of course there were some, as the Shogun had to enforce his rule, but when you have no actual wars?

As for the Meiji period and beyond, that was pretty different.

On the contrary, during the later Edo period (Meiji Restoration especially) when the daimyo were being charged for corruption and being replaced, thousands of Samurai were left masterless and either commited suicide or became Ronin. It was during this time that Japan mirrored the Wild West of the U.S. (which is why most Samurai films take place during the Meiji Restoration period and why they have so much in common with the Western) with corrupt officials taking over whatever land they could get their hands on and Samurai becoming the only weapon for either side. The Yojimbo, as it were. So if anything this lower, more everyday situation that they now fought in made them become even more dangerous, especially since many of them dropped their code of honor.

I love how people go on and on over these pointless debates; the debates only serving as an outlet through which these people can show off that they know a lot about something. If you folk'll want to have a good debate, try these:


"How many humans does it take to equal the superiority of one Goron?"

or,

"How many tens-of-millions of humans does it take to equal the Majesty of Emperor Darunia?"

Or:

"How many times will Darunia brag about how cool he and other Gorons are?"

One of the great mysteries of our time.

Quote:On the contrary, during the later Edo period (Meiji Restoration especially) when the daimyo were being charged for corruption and being replaced, thousands of Samurai were left masterless and either commited suicide or became Ronin. It was during this time that Japan mirrored the Wild West of the U.S. (which is why most Samurai films take place during the Meiji Restoration period and why they have so much in common with the Western) with corrupt officials taking over whatever land they could get their hands on and Samurai becoming the only weapon for either side. The Yojimbo, as it were. So if anything this lower, more everyday situation that they now fought in made them become even more dangerous, especially since many of them dropped their code of honor.

OB1, that's the Meiji Restoration. A totally different period from the Tokugawa Shogunate, for sure... as I said, the Meiji Restoration period was different. Civil war, samurai revolts, the position of the Emperor getting power again, Western contact, etc...

The Last Samurai wasn't a horrible movie. Oh, it wasn't perfect, and it greatly simplified everything, but it wasn't AWFUL or something... (And no, I'm not getting all my knowledge from that movie. I took a course on Japanese history, Meiji Restoration to now.)

Since the Meiji period was so short and tied directly into the later Edo Period (mid-19th century) many historians consider Meiji in the same basic period of Japanese history, especially when referring to the downfall of the Samurai and the downfall of the then-current Japanese society as it was for centuries. During the Edo period the Samurai class lost much of its stature which led to many becoming Ronin or simply ignoring the Bushido code and becoming swords for hire and/or mercenaries. There was a loss of stature but not skill as you are suggesting.

As for The Last Samurai, the movie was an empty, pretentious piece of Hollywood trash, the kind I've seen a hundred times before. Take a historical event, change it almost completely to have the main hero an American, attempt to show whatever foreign culture it is about as noble and misunderstood and pander to the audience, and let the story be a laughable mess disguised in nice cinematography. That's all it was. If you've seen a real Samurai movie before you'd feel the same way. If you're not really into movies though, like I know you are, then sure: it's fine, empty entertainment. But I'm surprised you liked that movie but not Troy which did the same thing.

Quote:As for The Last Samurai, the movie was an empty, pretentious piece of Hollywood trash, the kind I've seen a hundred times before. Take a historical event, change it almost completely to have the main hero an American, attempt to show whatever foreign culture it is about as noble and misunderstood and pander to the audience, and let the story be a laughable mess disguised in nice cinematography. That's all it was. If you've seen a real Samurai movie before you'd feel the same way. If you're not really into movies though, like I know you are, then sure: it's fine, empty entertainment. But I'm surprised you liked that movie but not Troy which did the same thing.

Hmm... yeah, it is Hollywoodized in a way like Troy was, and that is a big part of what got me to dislike that movie... lack of following the facts, merging events, etc, with the goal of making it into a form more accepted for films by audiences, etc... but I guess I was able to ignore it more in Last Samurai. (of course, I didn't hate every minuite of Troy or something, but my overall impressions were definitely negative.) And sure, Last Samurai tries too hard to present the culture as "noble/misunderstood', as you say. Within that they simplify the culture greatly and present it in an inaccurate light... and, of course, have an American as the hero. I didn't really think about it then, but that's definitely a part of Hollywood films... but they made it make enough sense that I wasn't thinking 'that's really stupid'.

A Samurai movie? Sure, I doubt it's much like a real Samurai movie. Haven't seen one, so I can't compare, but Last Samurai feels like an American film for sure. I'm just saying that I didn't think it was an awful movie or something. Not the best movie ever, but not awful.

Quote:Since the Meiji period was so short and tied directly into the later Edo Period (mid-19th century) many historians consider Meiji in the same basic period of Japanese history, especially when referring to the downfall of the Samurai and the downfall of the then-current Japanese society as it was for centuries. During the Edo period the Samurai class lost much of its stature which led to many becoming Ronin or simply ignoring the Bushido code and becoming swords for hire and/or mercenaries. There was a loss of stature but not skill as you are suggesting.

Samurai warriors, you mean. Not all of them fought. :) A lot of them didn't, if I'm remembering correctly...

And drawing lines is hard... but it's definitely true that after the point America forced Japan open to trade the nation changed greatly. But also that it hadn't really gotten to be like therest of the world either, of course... transitionary period really of course.

In the end, of course, the Samurai lost their power, gauranteed rights, etc... so of course they revolted a bunch of times but Meiji won. As for what happened after that, that I know a lot better. :)

Quote:Samurai warriors, you mean. Not all of them fought. A lot of them didn't, if I'm remembering correctly...

YES I mean Samurai warriors. I thought that was self-explanatory by now.

Quote:And drawing lines is hard... but it's definitely true that after the point America forced Japan open to trade the nation changed greatly. But also that it hadn't really gotten to be like therest of the world either, of course... transitionary period really of course.

In the end, of course, the Samurai lost their power, gauranteed rights, etc... so of course they revolted a bunch of times but Meiji won. As for what happened after that, that I know a lot better.

Yes, but the skill did not lessen. Not really until swords were outlawed and they could really only practice in private.

Quote:Hmm... yeah, it is Hollywoodized in a way like Troy was, and that is a big part of what got me to dislike that movie... lack of following the facts, merging events, etc, with the goal of making it into a form more accepted for films by audiences, etc... but I guess I was able to ignore it more in Last Samurai. (of course, I didn't hate every minuite of Troy or something, but my overall impressions were definitely negative.) And sure, Last Samurai tries too hard to present the culture as "noble/misunderstood', as you say. Within that they simplify the culture greatly and present it in an inaccurate light... and, of course, have an American as the hero. I didn't really think about it then, but that's definitely a part of Hollywood films... but they made it make enough sense that I wasn't thinking 'that's really stupid'.

A Samurai movie? Sure, I doubt it's much like a real Samurai movie. Haven't seen one, so I can't compare, but Last Samurai feels like an American film for sure. I'm just saying that I didn't think it was an awful movie or something. Not the best movie ever, but not awful.

Well you're entitled to your own opinion.

My favorite is the Kunjijo dynasty, wherein the daimyos all got really fat and stank like farts. That was during the Keyiiiuaoaks era, wherein Japan shrank to its normal size--it was once as big as Africa. Then, the samurais under Polipoop went to war with all of the ninjas, and that began the Jujikukl war of 1338, but the Austrians came and conquered Japan under Koji Kondo liberated it along with the samurais and the Swiss in 1202.


See, I know stuff too!!!

Personally, my favorite part of Japanese history is where the poor villagers summon the wrath of the mighty Daimajin to destroy the evil shoguns who had oppressed them for years.

Haha, Daimajin is awesome.

They both rule, but I'm going to go with the ninja. Ninjas can, like... hide in the dark, and move really fast. Samurai are pretty fast too, and they have cool swords, but ninjas throw shurikens!

Yeah, they both rule, but I like ninjas better.

Ninjas are cool, especially the teenage mutant turtle variety.

Yojimbo is way cooler than any ninja turtles.

Nah, the Ninja Turtles are cooler...

Immature Radioactive Samurai Slugs were cool too.

...

Except they were just a spoof of the TMNT done on Tiny Toons.

Quote:Nah, the Ninja Turtles are cooler...

You don't even know what you're talking about.

I mean the Ninja Turtles character. :D

What are you even talking about, ABF?