I've probably missed our thread(s) on this, having been away as I have been---but man who's seen it here--? It's amazing; it's a great tradition RPG, on a Nintendo system, the first one that I can recall since the glory days of the SNES! My friend rented it; I may have to buy it. Everything about it was top-rate in my opinion.
Share.
yes, it's good. i love it. but i'm stuck :(
i'm stuck again because i got to the end of the first disk and left the second disc at my mom's house...
it also doesn't allow you to save between discs, so if i just shut it off i'd have to go through the whole like 15 minutes of story before the disc swap all over again. and i'm not up for that, i'm afraid.
anyway, a quickie review for those of you without the game.
it's really very cool. the graphics are gorgeous although they are rather bright and colorful. the art style is beautiful and the spell effects are top notch. character designs are a little bland IMO, but they make up for it with strong personalities.
that said, the behavior of the characters is somewhat cute and lighthearted, but the story is anything but. it's extremely dark at times and really disturbing at others. it's also really long. i spent 40 hours on the first disk alone (although there were times when i'd leave the game running on it's own for an hour or so while i went about doing other things), so hopefully the second disk contains close to as much content and the game extends to at least 60 hours.
the puzzles in dungeons are very clever and some left me stumped for quite some time. it's also not an easy game when it comes to boss battles. most enemies can be defeated by just hitting the A button until the battle ends, but the bosses are another story all together and will require you have a healer in your group as well as some quick fingers for throwing out gels at just the right moment.
the only real downside i've noticed is that some of the characters are really annoying (genis, collette), and that the world map is not very impressive to look at (although it easily gets the job done.
so for anyone that's looking for an absolutely jawsome RPG for their gamecube, this is the title to buy...assuming you don't already have it.
Graphics: 9.0 beautiful characters, towns, and dungeons. world map is spartan.
Sound: 9.0 well composed music, plenty of voice acting (tho it is sometimes irritating) and sound effects.
Gameplay: 10 challenging dungeons, fun battles, and an interesting story
Lasting appeal: 9.0 quite long so far and i'm only at the end of the first disc. ROCK ON!
i give it a 9.3 (out of 10, not an average)
I got Fire Emblem. It's really good... better than I was expecting, probably.
that has like, nothing to do with what i'm talking about here.
Yeah, it doesn't.
I have ToS, but I haven't gotten around to playing it yet.
Yeah, as I thought by far the biggest problem with the game is the incredibly annoying save system. No, it is NOT a good thing that it auto-saves every two seconds! I would GREATLY prefer if you could save when you wanted to during missions. Sure, challenge is good, but frusteration isn't, and this save system is a breeding ground for frusteration. As I said, dying for the third or fourth straight time for some stupid reason like four enemies decided to all attack one of your guys and kill them, with you not being able to really do anything to stop them except start over, is NOT fun!
... um, yeah, I've now lost someone for the third straight time in mission 15.
The game gets pretty damn tough. Good luck trying to beat it.
And I don't remember having any problems with the save system. I suppose if you're the kind of gamer who likes to save after every turn and keep on playing so that you can go back and fix every single minute mistake, it would get annoying, but that's cheap so I never do it. Although I do admit that I restarted once or twice when a teammate died. :D
'once or twice'? So did you let teammates die, or did you not lose much...
Anyway, what happens when they die? I'd think that it'd make the game harder later on because you'd have fewer characters to choose from... unless they replace them with generic characters or something I don't see how it'd be good to not restart.
Though I admit that it is pretty tempting when you lose someone to the random chance of the computer once again ganging up on one character with a whole bunch of guys again and can't do anything about it.
I don't save every turn in strategy games. But I would usually save multiple times per scenario, especially when I know that it could be tough, and when a scenario takes half an hour or more that could save a LOT of times. I have played some RTSes that also left out in-mission saving and they are also very hard and annoying at times... the strategy genre really is built to allow saving when you want to and its lack really is a big flaw in strategy games without it. Especially when they make it as hard and frusterating as this game (given that you don't want to lose people).
Oh yeah, how many missions are there?
I forgot. When your teammates die they're basically put on the sidelines and you can no longer control them. I don't know what happens if most of them die.
This game really shows how much a good story can help a game. One of the biggest problems with the otherwise-fun Advance Wars titles is the quite bad and illogical story, after all...
And yeah, I'd hope that they'd either give you new characters or something because if they didn't the game could get impossibly hard and NO ONE would want to have to start the whole game over from the beginning. But getting through with no losses is obviously really, really hard... what, did you manage it?
Ah yes, Advane Wars. The main problem is that in an attempt to have a kid friendly story, they had characters ruthlessly sacrificying LIVING PEOPLE they DIDN'T EVEN CARE ABOUT for FUN! Remember that secret mission against Eagle? What was up with THAT? "Oh hey, let's have one more duel! Who cares if we are KILLING LIVING PEOPLE just for fun!"
DJ, you really should try unbanning OB1, at least for now... he's being nice. Really.
Advance Wars.... yeah, those games' stories are, when you think about it, really disturbing. As well as absurdly impossible and stupid. I mean, children as generals? People who are barely teenagers as your war leaders in combat? What in the world? And they act like they're playing a lot of the time while the reality is that it's war... it's just not right, when you actually think about it.
If the people were all robots, fine, it'd be great. But they're humans, and as such EVERYONE seems to have a unrealistic disregard for human life... okay, some might not care. But everyone? The whole situation is just impossible, stupid, and ridiculous. It doesn't work at all if you think about it for more than a minuite or two.
And teenagers being given command of armies and then not seeming to care when they start wars that would seem to lead to hundreds or thousands of deaths... just stupid.
So as I said, AW (and AW2, which is the one that I have -- not the first one)'s story is awful. Honestly, they might have been better off if they'd just given up and not bothered with a story beyond "they are evil KILLLLL"...
So, Advance Wars' story was part of why I was somewhat cautious about Fire Emblem... but they certainly proved that they can do story when they want to with this game. Relying on conventions, chance, and luck like this game does is okay when the story is as well constructed as this game is. But it defintely leads to the question as to what they were thinking with the stories in the AW games...
They didn't think at all with the stories. They just stuck in something for entertainment. Those were just for fun.
Ya know, I don't even mind the idea of kids leading armies or whatever. They might be very skilled prodigies after all, and in another world, the way everything works could be different. It's how these people could SEEM to have an attitude of "justice" and being friendly to everyone, and at the same time get into huge fights, killing their OWN men for NO reason, just to "test something", and then they are still "good caring people" after it all. THAT'S the part that makes the story just totally stupid. You are right, if they are going to give something like THAT to us, they might as well not even HAVE any story at ALL, just present you with bad guys and allies and let you figure out a story. A 5 year old's idea of what's going on is sure to be better than that.
A Black Falcon Wrote:This game really shows how much a good story can help a game. One of the biggest problems with the otherwise-fun Advance Wars titles is the quite bad and illogical story, after all...
And yeah, I'd hope that they'd either give you new characters or something because if they didn't the game could get impossibly hard and NO ONE would want to have to start the whole game over from the beginning. But getting through with no losses is obviously really, really hard... what, did you manage it?
To tell you the truth I think the story got too convoluted at times and relied on
way too much dialog for what was a very simple plot. But it was entertaining, and did make the game better.
However I think AW's non-existent plot works very well for it because it really is the kind of game you pick up and play every once in a while, doing single missions here and there. I haven't finished FE and play it every so often, confused by some of the story elements that I forgot about. So they both serve their purposes. AW is a terrific, pure strategy title that is perfect for a handheld since you can stop playing the game for a year and come back to it and know what to do, and FE is a strategy-RPG that requires long, consecutive days or weeks of play.
Quote:Advance Wars.... yeah, those games' stories are, when you think about it, really disturbing. As well as absurdly impossible and stupid. I mean, children as generals? People who are barely teenagers as your war leaders in combat? What in the world? And they act like they're playing a lot of the time while the reality is that it's war... it's just not right, when you actually think about it.
It's starts to make sense after you read Ender's Game...
Quote:So, Advance Wars' story was part of why I was somewhat cautious about Fire Emblem...
Since when do people play Advance Wars for the story?
Yeah what's the deal with that?
*shakes*
tales of symphonia is still really good
Hey don't get back on topic!!
But they aren't being led to believe it's a simulation. They know they are real soldiers!
They might not know, maybe there so distant from the battlefield that they don't realize what's really going on. Probably not, but as long as we're being all hypothetical here and serious about the story in a game like that, why not?
Who cares about the story in AW?
Seriously, who cares?
The AW story matters because, relative to how good the story is, they spend way too much time telling it. Yeah, they really don't spend that much time, but that proves my point about how bad it is... it reminds me of P.N.03. Like that game AW2 would probably be better off with a simpler story told in less depth. Either that or a better story, but the latter is a lot to ask...
GR, sorry, I highly doubt that they think it's a simulation. :) It's just utterly bizarre... and as I said, not right.
Quote:Ya know, I don't even mind the idea of kids leading armies or whatever. They might be very skilled prodigies after all, and in another world, the way everything works could be different. It's how these people could SEEM to have an attitude of "justice" and being friendly to everyone, and at the same time get into huge fights, killing their OWN men for NO reason, just to "test something", and then they are still "good caring people" after it all. THAT'S the part that makes the story just totally stupid. You are right, if they are going to give something like THAT to us, they might as well not even HAVE any story at ALL, just present you with bad guys and allies and let you figure out a story. A 5 year old's idea of what's going on is sure to be better than that.
'Hi buddy, let's talk! ... what, this army with me? Oh, I'm just passing through... don't mind the inevitable devastation and leave me alone, I'm your friend! Fight? Oh, fine, if you want to... I have more guys here than I need anyway, why not?'
They just show absolutely no understanding in what they are doing. Real people would react to being in battle like that! Especially teenagers like the main characters in AW1... sure, they well might eventually get used to it. But in these games there is no hint of moral issues. In AW1 they fight all these other countries for flimsy reasons and don't care at all about the devastation they cause on both sides... no one really acts like a real person, I'd say. AW2 is a bit better, but it's still bizarre. The characters all happily waste lives nearly equally... sure, Black Hole is worse. But after AW1 are the "good guys" so much different? Uh...
But anyway, yeah, definitely the best way to go with the AW games is just to ignore the story. But I can't totally do that...
Quote:To tell you the truth I think the story got too convoluted at times and relied on way too much dialog for what was a very simple plot. But it was entertaining, and did make the game better.
However I think AW's non-existent plot works very well for it because it really is the kind of game you pick up and play every once in a while, doing single missions here and there. I haven't finished FE and play it every so often, confused by some of the story elements that I forgot about. So they both serve their purposes. AW is a terrific, pure strategy title that is perfect for a handheld since you can stop playing the game for a year and come back to it and know what to do, and FE is a strategy-RPG that requires long, consecutive days or weeks of play.
Too convoluted? How? Like with all the plot twists? How all the characters that leave your party reappear later? Okay, a few fine... but ALL? Um... :) As I said, it's reliant on 'cooincidence' quite heavily. Yeah, the plot isn't super deep, but it's got a decent amount of depth and is revealed at a good slow rate as you progress. And all that conversation lets them tell it at a good pace... not in big bunches every so often but at a steady rate. It also makes the missions more interesting as it definitely fleshes out the action a lot more. They could have made it a really simple plot with no detail, but the game is MUCH better off with a nicely detailed plot. I like the fact that it's got a lot of conversation between missions, certainly (while recognizing that it isn't exactly the most innovative story design of all time).
You're right about the playtimes, for sure, though. With a story like this, and this save system, you really have to keep going or I can definitely see getting confused fairly easilly. AW is pretty resistant to that and certainly is better for short spurts. And they're quite different games and play very differently... it's tough to compare them, really. But though I loved AW2 FE is probably the better game.
Well, except for multiplayer. Now I haven't played FE in multi, and I don't know if I will, but based on reading about what it is it's obvious that AW blows it away. For one there's no single-system multiplayer mode, which is one of the best features of AW!
Quote:The AW story matters because, relative to how good the story is, they spend way too much time telling it. Yeah, they really don't spend that much time, but that proves my point about how bad it is... it reminds me of P.N.03. Like that game AW2 would probably be better off with a simpler story told in less depth. Either that or a better story, but the latter is a lot to ask...
Yes I agree that there was way too much text for such a simple story, a problem I also had with Fire Emblem. I guess it's just what Intelligent Systems' stragety team likes to do. :)
But a better story wouldn't really do anything good for the game. It would take away from the "pick up and play whenever" aspect of AW.
Quote:Too convoluted? How? Like with all the plot twists? How all the characters that leave your party reappear later? Okay, a few fine... but ALL? Um... As I said, it's reliant on 'cooincidence' quite heavily. Yeah, the plot isn't super deep, but it's got a decent amount of depth and is revealed at a good slow rate as you progress. And all that conversation lets them tell it at a good pace... not in big bunches every so often but at a steady rate. It also makes the missions more interesting as it definitely fleshes out the action a lot more. They could have made it a really simple plot with no detail, but the game is MUCH better off with a nicely detailed plot. I like the fact that it's got a lot of conversation between missions, certainly (while recognizing that it isn't exactly the most innovative story design of all time).
They just talk way to much for what is a pretty simple (though enjoyable) story. It takes them ten sentences to convey something like "Can I join your party? Why yes of course!".
Farvomir: You have a wondrous countenance, my fair lady. If it pleaseth thee, please allow me to join you on your voyage.
Teverfarnoth: Verily, you have spoken wisely, my dear Farvomir. It would be most wonderful if you could join us on our journey!
Faylafarsh: Indeed, we could use an archer of such reputable skill, and our quest is a noble one.
Farvomir: Wonderful, I shall then ask five other people if they think that my company would be worthy of them.
Farvomir: Sarlaef, Zeltof, Lashdale, Mordo, Calithum! Would my company be of help to any of you? If so, please speaketh up.
Sarlaef: Aye, my axe coupled with your bow would make for quite the team! Join us and we will surely defeat Lord Varmotolf!
Lashdale: I side with the rest of our companions, you would be a great addition to our band of warriors.
Zeltof: The more the better, Farvomir!
Calithum: Ha ha, surely you needn't ask us for our permission to join us on our quest!
Mordo: Indeed, we welcome you with open arms!
Farvomir: Wonderful! Then it is set, onwards to Lord Varmotolf!
Hahaha, slight exaggeration there but that's basically how it felt playing through the game. :D
Quote:You're right about the playtimes, for sure, though. With a story like this, and this save system, you really have to keep going or I can definitely see getting confused fairly easilly. AW is pretty resistant to that and certainly is better for short spurts. And they're quite different games and play very differently... it's tough to compare them, really. But though I loved AW2 FE is probably the better game.
Told ya so! :p
You really need a GB Player to really enjoy FE.
Yeah ABF, really I wouldn't even care about adding a story to that sort of game (though it might be interesting...). Essentially, they shouldn't have even bothered telling a story. Give you a description of what the enemy is doing and what you need to do to win, but don't bore me with 5 minutes of "I hate those Yellow Comet guys!" or "Sturm needs to go DOWN!". I mean, I gave up trying to figure out why Sturm is a bad guy, comparitivly, to begin with (he's just like everyone else, trying to take over the world), just don't even bother talking to me and let me play!
...
DJ, you really need to take off that post block. You're missing entire points in this discussion!
Oy... girls.
Quote:Told ya so!
Did I say otherwise? :)
Quote:You really need a GB Player to really enjoy FE.
Why?
Quote:Yes I agree that there was way too much text for such a simple story, a problem I also had with Fire Emblem. I guess it's just what Intelligent Systems' stragety team likes to do.
But a better story wouldn't really do anything good for the game. It would take away from the "pick up and play whenever" aspect of AW.
You're probably right about AW and how more story would hurt the great pick-up-and-play quality that game has. Bu I just disagree about FE. Sure it's somewhat verbose, but that's more realistic than many games! People DO talk, after aall, and generally a whole lot more frequently than they do in most games... :)
Of course it's more about how I find the conversations interesting and like the detail they provide to the story (including plenty of detail that isn't directly part of the main story, something some games don't do that much... like, yes, the greetings when people join your party. I kind of like that. Though some of it is optional -- or did you never notice that in some missions you can have your characters talk to eachother?) than it is about realism, but that's true too. :)
Quote:Did I say otherwise?
Well
yeah. Remember how you didn't want to get FE in fear of it just being AW in a fantasy setting? Or was that someone else...
Quote:Why?
Easier on the neck and eyes. Longer play sessions, you know?
Quote:You're probably right about AW and how more story would hurt the great pick-up-and-play quality that game has. Bu I just disagree about FE. Sure it's somewhat verbose, but that's more realistic than many games! People DO talk, after aall, and generally a whole lot more frequently than they do in most games...
Of course it's more about how I find the conversations interesting and like the detail they provide to the story (including plenty of detail that isn't directly part of the main story, something some games don't do that much... like, yes, the greetings when people join your party. I kind of like that. Though some of it is optional -- or did you never notice that in some missions you can have your characters talk to eachother?) than it is about realism, but that's true too.
Man I'd get really sick of those people if I were on a real-life quest with them. I'd just tell them to shut the hell up and get on with killing Lord Whatshisface.
You have to admit that my post about the dialogue was pretty darn accurate. :)
Quote:Well yeah. Remember how you didn't want to get FE in fear of it just being AW in a fantasy setting? Or was that someone else...
That doesn't really sound like something I'd say.
Quote:Easier on the neck and eyes. Longer play sessions, you know?
Ah. Yeah, that's true... GB is harder on the eyes. I've found that (like with reading) one of the most comfortable ways to play GB (or read a book) is lying on my bed but you can only do that so long before your neck gets tired... a TV would be easier for longer play sessions. :)
Quote:Man I'd get really sick of those people if I were on a real-life quest with them. I'd just tell them to shut the hell up and get on with killing Lord Whatshisface.
You have to admit that my post about the dialogue was pretty darn accurate.
They're not quite THAT verbose. :)
And as I said, in real life people talk plenty and I'd say that they are just trying to show that to a greater extent than most games. Yes, some other games do have lots of conversation, but not most... and as long as it's well done, like in this game, I don't mind. As long as it can be easily skipped when you're redoing missions and there is plenty of "actual gameplay" (if the conversation is non-interactive, that is, like it generally is in console games), I don't have a problem with it. It's only a problem if it's bad, in which case any amount of it is a pain... see P.N.03 and Advance Wars. :)
So yes, they talk a lot. But it's well written and well put together and is just plausible enough that I can ignore the fact that it's somewhat implausible. In short, better than most, on Game Boy anyway...
GBA strategy/RPGs... there are quite a few... Zelda doesn't have much of a story. Sword of Mana has one that's a bit much even for me (over-dramatic, I mean.). It's okay, but it is admittedly a bit overdone... though I think it's a great game. And the story is good, really. Final Fantasy Tactics Advance? Okay story, I guess, but somewhat weak. And compared to SoM or FE, thin -- not all that much plot development really. Which, given it's mediocricy, is really the best way for that game... It's an old and tired idea... I mean, 'people transported to a different world' has to be one of the most popular fantasy cliche stories. Right after #1, the 'Hero who Grows Up Poor and Goes On To Be The Great Hero who Stops the Evil from Destroying/Taking Over The World'. With a alternate track of 'Prince who Grows Up with Peasants not knowing his Heritage and must Save the Kingdom from his Wicked Relative's Reign'... :)
Quote:That doesn't really sound like something I'd say.
Well....
somebody did... might as well have been you.
Since you took a year to get the game.
Quote:Ah. Yeah, that's true... GB is harder on the eyes. I've found that (like with reading) one of the most comfortable ways to play GB (or read a book) is lying on my bed but you can only do that so long before your neck gets tired... a TV would be easier for longer play sessions.
Yes. So go out and buy a GB Player.
Quote:They're not quite THAT verbose.
Almost.
Quote:And as I said, in real life people talk plenty and I'd say that they are just trying to show that to a greater extent than most games. Yes, some other games do have lots of conversation, but not most... and as long as it's well done, like in this game, I don't mind. As long as it can be easily skipped when you're redoing missions and there is plenty of "actual gameplay" (if the conversation is non-interactive, that is, like it generally is in console games), I don't have a problem with it. It's only a problem if it's bad, in which case any amount of it is a pain... see P.N.03 and Advance Wars.
So yes, they talk a lot. But it's well written and well put together and is just plausible enough that I can ignore the fact that it's somewhat implausible. In short, better than most, on Game Boy anyway...
Yeah people in real life do talk a lot, but when your house is on fire or you're trying to beat some evil warlord who's trying to take over your father's kingdom, you're not gonna be chattin' it up all of the time, you know what I mean?
Quote:GBA strategy/RPGs... there are quite a few... Zelda doesn't have much of a story. Sword of Mana has one that's a bit much even for me (over-dramatic, I mean.). It's okay, but it is admittedly a bit overdone... though I think it's a great game. And the story is good, really. Final Fantasy Tactics Advance? Okay story, I guess, but somewhat weak. And compared to SoM or FE, thin -- not all that much plot development really. Which, given it's mediocricy, is really the best way for that game... It's an old and tired idea... I mean, 'people transported to a different world' has to be one of the most popular fantasy cliche stories. Right after #1, the 'Hero who Grows Up Poor and Goes On To Be The Great Hero who Stops the Evil from Destroying/Taking Over The World'. With a alternate track of 'Prince who Grows Up with Peasants not knowing his Heritage and must Save the Kingdom from his Wicked Relative's Reign'...
Yeah but it hasn't been done too many times in video games. ..
Quote:Yeah but it hasn't been done too many times in video games. ..
But it shows up way too often in fantasy or historical fiction books, so...
Quote:Yes. So go out and buy a GB Player.
$50 to play games I can already play? Maybe someday, but it just doesn't seem quite worth it.
Quote:Well.... somebody did... might as well have been you.
Since you took a year to get the game.
Well... I didn't buy anything right after christmas (which is why I ended up getting 8 games in February), and last fall I got SoM and FFTA, and then in February... yeah, I got four games and not this. But I thought that LttP had a higher priority than FE. And the others were cheaper and filled in some gaps I didn't have on GB like shooter, straight RPG, and racing... I didn't really want ANOTHER strategy-RPG yet. :)
Then this summer that's only the second GBA game I've gotten, after NES Zelda.
Quote:Yeah people in real life do talk a lot, but when your house is on fire or you're trying to beat some evil warlord who's trying to take over your father's kingdom, you're not gonna be chattin' it up all of the time, you know what I mean?
First, they don't really KNOW that they're trying to beat an evil wizard for a long time. I'm at mission 16X and the characters are just starting to understand, they think, what is going on... without this much speech you'd lose some of that.
And second, it's a long quest. A year goes by between missions 10 and 11! Of course when they see eachother again they'll want to talk... and similar with new people. It's a small band and a new person joins. Many people would want to greet them. Most games just wouldn't show it... but I think it's nice.
And they save most of the talking for between missions, you know. Only a bit during them. :)
Quote:But it shows up way too often in fantasy or historical fiction books, so...
I guess...
Quote:$50 to play games I can already play? Maybe someday, but it just doesn't seem quite worth it.
Look out for sales, or buy it used.
Quote:Well... I didn't buy anything right after christmas (which is why I ended up getting 8 games in February), and last fall I got SoM and FFTA, and then in February... yeah, I got four games and not this. But I thought that LttP had a higher priority than FE. And the others were cheaper and filled in some gaps I didn't have on GB like shooter, straight RPG, and racing... I didn't really want ANOTHER strategy-RPG yet.
Then this summer that's only the second GBA game I've gotten, after NES Zelda.
FE is so much better than FFTA, you should have gotten it instead last fall.
Quote:First, they don't really KNOW that they're trying to beat an evil wizard for a long time. I'm at mission 16X and the characters are just starting to understand, they think, what is going on... without this much speech you'd lose some of that.
And second, it's a long quest. A year goes by between missions 10 and 11! Of course when they see eachother again they'll want to talk... and similar with new people. It's a small band and a new person joins. Many people would want to greet them. Most games just wouldn't show it... but I think it's nice.
And they save most of the talking for between missions, you know. Only a bit during them.
Come onnn, they talk too much and you know it.
Oh no! ABF and OB1 are arguing becuase they're quoting each other!!
Seriously though, this is probably the first thread in a while that ABF and OB1 have post in, in response to each other, that hasn't turned into a violent and over-heated match to see who can insult each other the most and make rude references about the other's mother. Good job, you guys get a gold star! *gives OB1 and ABF a gold star* You only get one though, so you have to share it.
Trouble: *is brewing*
Me: ...
Trouble: What? It's coffee.
Alright. Here you go. *spills coffee on OB1* Umm...just wring your shirt out in a cup. Might make the coffee taste better. Right?
Quote:Look out for sales, or buy it used.
Sales? You don't see hardware on sale much... as for used, never seen a used one.
Quote:I guess...
I was just making the point that it was quite far from being original. It's somewhat interesting, but nothing I haven't seen many times before... and the presentation and depth of the story is somewhat lacking. Oh well, it's decent. Good enough I guess.
Quote:FE is so much better than FFTA, you should have gotten it instead last fall.
Yes, it is better. But was FE out when I got FFTA?
Quote:Come onnn, they talk too much and you know it.
They talk a lot, but with good writing and good presentation I do not see it as a problem at all. As I've said, I'd say that it actually improves the quality of the story (and how interested I am in it) not detracts from it...
Quote:Sales? You don't see hardware on sale much... as for used, never seen a used one.
If you check cheapassgamer.com regularly you're bound to find a good deal on a GB Player eventually.
Quote:I was just making the point that it was quite far from being original. It's somewhat interesting, but nothing I haven't seen many times before... and the presentation and depth of the story is somewhat lacking. Oh well, it's decent. Good enough I guess.
There are like two RPGs franchises, ever, that have had original storylines.
Quote:Yes, it is better. But was FE out when I got FFTA?
It came out a little bit later.
Quote:They talk a lot, but with good writing and good presentation I do not see it as a problem at all. As I've said, I'd say that it actually improves the quality of the story (and how interested I am in it) not detracts from it...
It's making the story artificially more complicated, kinda like adding a hundred different unnecessary detours for directions to your house, just to make the drive more complicated.
Quote:There are like two RPGs franchises, ever, that have had original storylines.
This is true. But I think I still can complain because, while hard, it is technically possible for fantasy games or books to have original storylines. :) Now, I obviously do like the conventions given that I like the genre, but still... more originality is always good.
Quote:It came out a little bit later.
That's what I thought.
Quote:It's making the story artificially more complicated, kinda like adding a hundred different unnecessary detours for directions to your house, just to make the drive more complicated.
Complexity in storylines is perfectly fine if it's written and presented well. Like here.
And anyway, a lot of that "extra speech" isn't about the main storyline, it's just stuff that fleshes it out to make the characters seem more "real", I'd say. Which, in my opinion, is appreciated given how most games are.
Quote:This is true. But I think I still can complain because, while hard, it is technically possible for fantasy games or books to have original storylines. Now, I obviously do like the conventions given that I like the genre, but still... more originality is always good.
This is really why I rarely ever beat RPGs. The stories are just so damn stale.
Quote:That's what I thought.
You should have waited. How far did you get in FFTA?
Quote:Complexity in storylines is perfectly fine if it's written and presented well. Like here.
And anyway, a lot of that "extra speech" isn't about the main storyline, it's just stuff that fleshes it out to make the characters seem more "real", I'd say. Which, in my opinion, is appreciated given how most games are.
They actually seemed even more artificial to me with that forced dialogue. I would have preferred something funnier ala Disgaea.
Quote:You should have waited. How far did you get in FFTA?
I don't remember... close to half, though, is by best guess. 15 hours maybe? 20 at most?
In FE I've had it for like a week and I'm over 10 hours in and am halfway. :)
Quote:They actually seemed even more artificial to me with that forced dialogue. I would have preferred something funnier ala Disgaea.
Forced? As I said, I consider it more natural, not forced at all... yeah, they talk a lot, but it's not just talk for the sake of talk, I'd say. It's talk for the sake of making the game feel more realistic in some way and to let the game creators provide a more detailed world and more information on the characters.
Quote:This is really why I rarely ever beat RPGs. The stories are just so damn stale.
That is usually true. The question usually is in how well they implement their cliche story and how much uniqueness they have in it...
We're talking about story so you know what I'll say. Torment wins. Though I do have one addition here -- I would definitely say that that game's story wins both for verbosity AND for uniqueness in a fantasy-RPG.
Quote:I don't remember... close to half, though, is by best guess. 15 hours maybe? 20 at most?
In FE I've had it for like a week and I'm over 10 hours in and am halfway.
I haven't played FFTA in a while. I should.
Quote:Forced? As I said, I consider it more natural, not forced at all... yeah, they talk a lot, but it's not just talk for the sake of talk, I'd say. It's talk for the sake of making the game feel more realistic in some way and to let the game creators provide a more detailed world and more information on the characters.
Well maybe that's the normal manner of conversation in Maine, but everywhere I've lived that would be pretty forced and lame. :p
Brian: Oh hello dear mother, how do you do today?
Brian's Mom: Dear Brian, I am doing just splendid. Did you remember to fold your socks?
Brian: ... Eegads, I believe I
forgot to! My word, how could I have been so absent-minded?
Brian's Mom: 'Tis quite alright, my boy. Hurry along now, you don't want to be late for your father's arrival. We will depart for Vardintale at once!
:D
Quote:That is usually true. The question usually is in how well they implement their cliche story and how much uniqueness they have in it...
We're talking about story so you know what I'll say. Torment wins. Though I do have one addition here -- I would definitely say that that game's story wins both for verbosity AND for uniqueness in a fantasy-RPG.
If the gameplay is great or addictive in some way then I don't care about the story (like Morrowind), but for a typical RPG I really need a decent, original story to keep me playing through all of it.
Quote:Well maybe that's the normal manner of conversation in Maine, but everywhere I've lived that would be pretty forced and lame.
Brian: Oh hello dear mother, how do you do today?
Brian's Mom: Dear Brian, I am doing just splendid. Did you remember to fold your socks?
Brian: ... Eegads, I believe I forgot to! My word, how could I have been so absent-minded?
Brian's Mom: 'Tis quite alright, my boy. Hurry along now, you don't want to be late for your father's arrival. We will depart for Vardintale at once!
In fantasy-literature world, that's normal speak. And this is that, despite it being Japanese. :)
Quote:I haven't played FFTA in a while. I should.
It is pretty good... but fairly long and it gets a bit repetitive... I'd rather play FE. Or, probably, SoM, LttP, NES Zelda... but yeah, I should play that more someday.
Quote:If the gameplay is great or addictive in some way then I don't care about the story (like Morrowind), but for a typical RPG I really need a decent, original story to keep me playing through all of it.
Baldur's Gate has an original story, you know... sure, 'person who grows up knowing nothing and has to save the world' is the base of it and that's the oldest one on the block, but it puts in a big unique twist by making you the child of a god. :)
It really depends on the game. If I'm interested in playing I'll get farther, cliche story or no... but yeah, when it's more unique I'm probably more likely to get farther. But I have certainly enjoyed plenty of games with cliche stories that don't have BG's originality.
Of course for some games that (intrest in keeping playing/exploroing the world) is provided by humor. Quest for Glory, for instance. :) Others, like BG (or rather BGII:SoA/BGII: ToB) do it with lots of backstory, nicely detailed quests (the myriad things that happen to you during your adventures), and a interesting main story that slowly gets revealed over the series. Or you could do it like Torment... oh wait, that's not true, I don't think anything's ever done it like Torment, before or after...
Quote:In fantasy-literature world, that's normal speak. And this is that, despite it being Japanese.
It's still lame...
Quote:It is pretty good... but fairly long and it gets a bit repetitive... I'd rather play FE. Or, probably, SoM, LttP, NES Zelda... but yeah, I should play that more someday.
You got NES Zelda for the GBA?
Quote:Baldur's Gate has an original story, you know... sure, 'person who grows up knowing nothing and has to save the world' is the base of it and that's the oldest one on the block, but it puts in a big unique twist by making you the child of a god.
Yeah because... because that's never been done before....
Never read Hercules, eh?
Quote:It really depends on the game. If I'm interested in playing I'll get farther, cliche story or no... but yeah, when it's more unique I'm probably more likely to get farther. But I have certainly enjoyed plenty of games with cliche stories that don't have BG's originality.
Of course for some games that (intrest in keeping playing/exploroing the world) is provided by humor. Quest for Glory, for instance. Others, like BG (or rather BGIIoA/BGII: ToB) do it with lots of backstory, nicely detailed quests (the myriad things that happen to you during your adventures), and a interesting main story that slowly gets revealed over the series. Or you could do it like Torment... oh wait, that's not true, I don't think anything's ever done it like Torment, before or after...
What does Torment do?
Quote:Yeah because... because that's never been done before....
Never read Hercules, eh?
Didn't say it was totally new, but that it was more unique than most in that most typical of PC storylines. And plus over the course of the two games and two expansions you put many, many hours into the game so the second game has little trace of the "started knowing nothing" part left... after all, you start off with a significant amount of power in that game. And even more so in the expansion.
Quote:What does Torment do?
I've described it before, for DJ, a month or two ago I think... it's really hard to describe Torment without using spoilers and I REALLY wouldn't want to spoil it because discovering the story and the world is the best part of the game. But a few points.
-The most de-emphasized combat I know of in any normal RPG I've played. You'll spend far more time wandering around talking to people or wandering around than you will fighting. And the fighting really isn't that tough... especially when you add the main characters' special abilities into the picture (I won't say what it is unless you want to know, though).
-There is more text reading than anything out there -- but in the context of PC adventure/RPG styling so you choose what to say, so you aren't just doing nothing.
-Conversations are greatly affected by character stats. Have low Intelligence or Wisdom and you just plain won't see some of the conversation options that smarter characters can choose. And I don't just mean 'convince me' stuff. In this game, it's more about 'explain more of this to me' stuff... a smarter character will get SIGNIFICANTLY more story than one who isn't as smart. Yes, often as a result of the more complex conversation options you'll get options that let you avoid violence, but the fact that it gets you more detail about the story is almost as important as the less violent result.
-A unique world. Torment is set in PlaneScape, which was probably D&D's most inventive world. There are no Dwarves or Elves in this game. Yup! None, as far as I know. Certainly none in your party. See, Planescape is a different kind of D&D setting. It's set in a city called Sigil, which is in a special place outside of the planes. Planes include the planes of hell, heaven, middle ones, the Material Planes (where places like Faerun (Forgotten Realms) are), etc... and Sigil is somehow outside of that and in a special place where there are many portals to other planes but it's not really in one.
What that means for gameplay is a quite different playable character list. You've got more things connected to the "heaven/hell" planes -- not demons, but half-demon people, beings from other planes, people with special powers... none of the characters are just normal humans.
Oh yeah, it also means that you spend the first half of the game in that city. This part of the game is also relatively non-linear... all you really know is that you have to keep doing sidequests to progress to figure out what to do next, eventually. Halfway through the game changes into a much more linear style. At this point the frequency of combat also increases noticably...
It also zooms in the Baldur's Gate engine so that the characters are larger on the screen. It means you can't see as far and combat gets simpler, but I think it's a fine bargain to get great character art. But honestly, while the graphics are fine they aren't the star of the game... the conversations are.
Quote:It's still lame...
I disagree. I don't want people in a fantasy world speaking like people today! Now in a modern-day game it'd be bad, but this is fantasy... it might be a bit overdone, but only a bit. Certainly not an issue I'd complain about.
Quote:You got NES Zelda for the GBA?
Well I didn't have it for anything else, so yes...