Quote:Didn't say it was totally new, but that it was more unique than most in that most typical of PC storylines. And plus over the course of the two games and two expansions you put many, many hours into the game so the second game has little trace of the "started knowing nothing" part left... after all, you start off with a significant amount of power in that game. And even more so in the expansion.
If you want to play a game with a
truly original storyline that really hasn't been done anywhere in any form, play through all of MGS2. :)
Quote:I've described it before, for DJ, a month or two ago I think... it's really hard to describe Torment without using spoilers and I REALLY wouldn't want to spoil it because discovering the story and the world is the best part of the game. But a few points.
-The most de-emphasized combat I know of in any normal RPG I've played. You'll spend far more time wandering around talking to people or wandering around than you will fighting. And the fighting really isn't that tough... especially when you add the main characters' special abilities into the picture (I won't say what it is unless you want to know, though).
-There is more text reading than anything out there -- but in the context of PC adventure/RPG styling so you choose what to say, so you aren't just doing nothing.
-Conversations are greatly affected by character stats. Have low Intelligence or Wisdom and you just plain won't see some of the conversation options that smarter characters can choose. And I don't just mean 'convince me' stuff. In this game, it's more about 'explain more of this to me' stuff... a smarter character will get SIGNIFICANTLY more story than one who isn't as smart. Yes, often as a result of the more complex conversation options you'll get options that let you avoid violence, but the fact that it gets you more detail about the story is almost as important as the less violent result.
-A unique world. Torment is set in PlaneScape, which was probably D&D's most inventive world. There are no Dwarves or Elves in this game. Yup! None, as far as I know. Certainly none in your party. See, Planescape is a different kind of D&D setting. It's set in a city called Sigil, which is in a special place outside of the planes. Planes include the planes of hell, heaven, middle ones, the Material Planes (where places like Faerun (Forgotten Realms) are), etc... and Sigil is somehow outside of that and in a special place where there are many portals to other planes but it's not really in one.
What that means for gameplay is a quite different playable character list. You've got more things connected to the "heaven/hell" planes -- not demons, but half-demon people, beings from other planes, people with special powers... none of the characters are just normal humans.
Oh yeah, it also means that you spend the first half of the game in that city. This part of the game is also relatively non-linear... all you really know is that you have to keep doing sidequests to progress to figure out what to do next, eventually. Halfway through the game changes into a much more linear style. At this point the frequency of combat also increases noticably...
It also zooms in the Baldur's Gate engine so that the characters are larger on the screen. It means you can't see as far and combat gets simpler, but I think it's a fine bargain to get great character art. But honestly, while the graphics are fine they aren't the star of the game... the conversations are.
The conversations...
Quote:I disagree. I don't want people in a fantasy world speaking like people today! Now in a modern-day game it'd be bad, but this is fantasy... it might be a bit overdone, but only a bit. Certainly not an issue I'd complain about.
They speak like nerds at a medieval festival.
Quote:Well I didn't have it for anything else, so yes...
Beat it yet?
Quote:Beat it yet?
... no...
It's hard! And lengthy! ... and the save system is pretty limiting. Starting at the one start point every time you turn it on... takes quite a while to get to a dungeon with an amount of health that's high enough to maybe beat it with. I think I got to the 5th or 6th dungeon... it got really hard.
Quote:If you want to play a game with a truly original storyline that really hasn't been done anywhere in any form, play through all of MGS2.
Yeah, MGS1/2 also fit into that category of unique stories, for sure...
Quote:The conversations...
Everyone has a lot to say. But not in a FE way with fifteen people talking all the time, but in a PC RPG way with you and one other person talking about something... and with them telling you things. Which really give a lot of depth to the world... and I don't mean that like I said with FE. That has a good story, but it is simple... for Torment, the story actually is kind of simple. But it's got many layers of complexity that explain that "simple" concept. It's really the story of one person. Er, kind-of-person. Your character. It doesn't really have a massive world-saving plot. Slightly at the end, but even there... it's all about you. And how your actions affect the world, and if you can attone for past sins by trying to do good, and what happens when you try that... but I really don't want to spoil it, so I'll stop now. :)
I will say one other thing though. This game pretty much avoids BGI's aggrivating need to constantly visit priests and spend large amounts of money every time party members die. Which is really nice. And it completely ties into the game's plot too...
Quote:They speak like nerds at a medieval festival.
Oh well. I wonder how real medieval people spoke though... though like most fantasy this has little to do with being an accurate depiction of a medieval world (with magic). Women in the army and wearing clothes like that? Not only lords but also people lower down in the ladder speaking relatively elegantly? Etc. Many of the standard fantasy cliches which you get used to but should know have little to do with how the real medieval world was.
Quote:... no...
It's hard! And lengthy! ... and the save system is pretty limiting. Starting at the one start point every time you turn it on... takes quite a while to get to a dungeon with an amount of health that's high enough to maybe beat it with. I think I got to the 5th or 6th dungeon... it got really hard.
Welcome to the world of old-school gaming. :)
Quote:Yeah, MGS1/2 also fit into that category of unique stories, for sure...
Nah, MGS1 has a pretty generic political thriller/action movie plot, but MGS2 just gets insane.
Quote:Everyone has a lot to say. But not in a FE way with fifteen people talking all the time, but in a PC RPG way with you and one other person talking about something... and with them telling you things. Which really give a lot of depth to the world... and I don't mean that like I said with FE. That has a good story, but it is simple... for Torment, the story actually is kind of simple. But it's got many layers of complexity that explain that "simple" concept. It's really the story of one person. Er, kind-of-person. Your character. It doesn't really have a massive world-saving plot. Slightly at the end, but even there... it's all about you. And how your actions affect the world, and if you can attone for past sins by trying to do good, and what happens when you try that... but I really don't want to spoil it, so I'll stop now.
I will say one other thing though. This game pretty much avoids BGI's aggrivating need to constantly visit priests and spend large amounts of money every time party members die. Which is really nice. And it completely ties into the game's plot too...
Do your conversations affect things like they do in Fable?
Quote:Oh well. I wonder how real medieval people spoke though... though like most fantasy this has little to do with being an accurate depiction of a medieval world (with magic). Women in the army and wearing clothes like that? Not only lords but also people lower down in the ladder speaking relatively elegantly? Etc. Many of the standard fantasy cliches which you get used to but should know have little to do with how the real medieval world was.
I think they did a relatively decent job with the whole medieval manner of speaking in the Rings movies.
Quote:Welcome to the world of old-school gaming.
Yeah, I know... when you compare LoZ or LttP (also really hard, but in LttP it's because of how much damage you take from enemies more than anything... well that and how the dungeons are so linear and require you to go through so much on each try...) to newer games in that genre there really isn't much of a comparison. Which works both ways, as it's more likely that you'll actually beat the newer ones but when you finally do finish those old ones it'd probably mean more...
Quote:I think they did a relatively decent job with the whole medieval manner of speaking in the Rings movies.
Tolkein was a master at language though, so that doesn't surprise me much. :)
Quote:Do your conversations affect things like they do in Fable?
Hmm... you can be good or bad, sure, but it doesn't have a massive impact on where the game goes. There are three endings (though what happens to your character is always the same -- the different endings just change some other things) but that is decided by just the final encounter... though your stats when you get there are a key factor to that of course, so you'll probably end up with the most appropriate one.
It does allow you to act good or bad, though. Actually, there is one unique aspect here. You know how BG has that number it calculates for how good or bad you are being so that if it gets really low guards will attack you and stuff. And KotOR has a good/evil meter. Torment is more like the latter. Your character starts at True Neutral and how you act in conversations (and actions) will actually change his alignment. So yes, you can shape your character in that way... but it doesn't change where you go or the overall story of the game. Just interactions with others and your own character details. So the extent of how much your actions affect all aspects of the game isn't as great as KotOR... but, if you play the game, you'd probably understand why. I don't think that something like KotOR or Fable would be appropriate in Torment, as far as having two totally different paths is concerned... this story wouldn't really work with that. No matter if you are a good or an evil person (and as a result how many people you kill) the way the plot for your character goes is really the only way it could.
Oh, as what I've said should hint you have very little freedom in character creation. All you do is set the six main D&D stats. That's it. You start as a Fighter. A bit into the game you can switch to Theif or Mage, if you talk to the right people, though. And as I said your alignment will move with your actions. But your character image, picture, voice set, etc. are all set... as it has to be in a game with as huge a focus on a specific character as this one. Which is the norm in console RPGs, but quite rare on PC...
Quote:Yeah, I know... when you compare LoZ or LttP (also really hard, but in LttP it's because of how much damage you take from enemies more than anything... well that and how the dungeons are so linear and require you to go through so much on each try...) to newer games in that genre there really isn't much of a comparison. Which works both ways, as it's more likely that you'll actually beat the newer ones but when you finally do finish those old ones it'd probably mean more...
Maybe. It did when I was younger, that's for sure. Nothing more satisfying than beating an old NES game.
Quote:Tolkein was a master at language though, so that doesn't surprise me much.
It was still funny and awkward in some parts though.
Quote:Hmm... you can be good or bad, sure, but it doesn't have a massive impact on where the game goes. There are three endings (though what happens to your character is always the same -- the different endings just change some other things) but that is decided by just the final encounter... though your stats when you get there are a key factor to that of course, so you'll probably end up with the most appropriate one.
It does allow you to act good or bad, though. Actually, there is one unique aspect here. You know how BG has that number it calculates for how good or bad you are being so that if it gets really low guards will attack you and stuff. And KotOR has a good/evil meter. Torment is more like the latter. Your character starts at True Neutral and how you act in conversations (and actions) will actually change his alignment. So yes, you can shape your character in that way... but it doesn't change where you go or the overall story of the game. Just interactions with others and your own character details. So the extent of how much your actions affect all aspects of the game isn't as great as KotOR... but, if you play the game, you'd probably understand why. I don't think that something like KotOR or Fable would be appropriate in Torment, as far as having two totally different paths is concerned... this story wouldn't really work with that. No matter if you are a good or an evil person (and as a result how many people you kill) the way the plot for your character goes is really the only way it could.
Oh, as what I've said should hint you have very little freedom in character creation. All you do is set the six main D&D stats. That's it. You start as a Fighter. A bit into the game you can switch to Theif or Mage, if you talk to the right people, though. And as I said your alignment will move with your actions. But your character image, picture, voice set, etc. are all set... as it has to be in a game with as huge a focus on a specific character as this one. Which is the norm in console RPGs, but quite rare on PC...
Okay.
Quote:Okay.
As in, yeah, there is more of a degree of being able to make moral choices than most games, but it restricts you more than a KotOR or Fable on that front. Maybe they could have put in a more evil way to end the game, instead of the one ending your character has, but really... anyone who would want it to go like that must really hate him (the main character, whose name is The Nameless One because he doesn't know what his name is)...
Quote:Maybe. It did when I was younger, that's for sure. Nothing more satisfying than beating an old NES game.
Yeah. Especially like here where you look back at them and realize how hard things like no saving or very limited saving made these games.
Quote:It was still funny and awkward in some parts though.
Well they are movies, not books, so it's not just straight Tolkein... and anyway, Tolkein was writing in a time when it was normal to be more verbose.
Quote:As in, yeah, there is more of a degree of being able to make moral choices than most games, but it restricts you more than a KotOR or Fable on that front. Maybe they could have put in a more evil way to end the game, instead of the one ending your character has, but really... anyone who would want it to go like that must really hate him (the main character, whose name is The Nameless One because he doesn't know what his name is)...
How can conversations be that fun if it really doesn't offer much, gameplay-wise?
Quote:Yeah. Especially like here where you look back at them and realize how hard things like no saving or very limited saving made these games.
Yes.
Quote:Well they are movies, not books, so it's not just straight Tolkein... and anyway, Tolkein was writing in a time when it was normal to be more verbose.
Yes.
Quote:How can conversations be that fun if it really doesn't offer much, gameplay-wise?
... huh? Umm... no point? I don't understand. But talking to people, hearing about the world, responding and sometimes doing quests... that IS much of the gameplay! As I said, conversation is a much bigger part of this game than most RPGs, and combat a much smaller one. You'll fight a decent amount, but it's not as vital, or as challenging, as it is in other games. But fighting isn't really the point of the game so that's fine. Lots of people you meet have a lot to say... even the random civilians say more than in other games, and there are more people who aren't just random civilians to talk to. And many of them have big branching dialogue trees. :)
Your character starts the game knowing nothing. You explore this world and learn about it while trying to learn about yourself. And slowly you learn more about both of those things, as you progress. But that's not to say that early on you don't learn much -- quite the opposite, in the early parts you get quite a lot of information. But not all the answers, and the game's quest keeps you moving on to learn about yourself and exactly what you are and what your past choices were that brought you to wake up on a slab in a mortuary (with a talking skull as a companion)...
What I was saying with the comparison to KotOR is that this game's story isn't as branching as that and that no matter how you act it'll head to the same conclusion, or close to it. But it's got a lot of story. But even more than the story about you, probably, is the story of the world... Planescape is AD&D's most unique world, I'd certainly say, and the process of understanding this place is a huge part of the game. Those conversations with people aren't all about you, after all, in a large part they're about the place you're currently in...
What I mean is does it actually have an affect on gameplay like it does in Fable or KOTOR, where what you say affects how people view you, and you can do certain things depending on how you talk, etc.
I haven't explained it enough yet? It's tough... hard to explain, especially without spoilers. And if there's one thing I don't want to do with this game it's spoil much of anything.
But it's a focused story. In some ways closer to how a console RPG does things -- you have a set main character, and the game focuses on a detailed story about him, your party, and the world around them. Of course it's got more text than most any console RPG, but that kind of is a decent comparison... well, except for how, in standard PC RPG fashion, the story won't just come to you. At least not most of it. You have to seek it out, and you have to have character stats good enough to get that information from people.
As for good and evil, as I've said, it changes things a little, but not as much as other games. Though there's only so much I can say, given how I only played it through once and was a good character... I never play as evil characters in RPGs... but as far as I could tell while you certainly could be mean to people and they probably would react to your alignment -- I'm sure it has some impact on conversations, especially with the various factions --, the grand course of the game won't be hugely affected by it and neither will where you go in the game. But I'm sure it'd make the play experience different... though as for how much people would react or that stuff (for evil in particular) I'm not sure.
What you can frequently do is avoid combat with words. :)
Like "I'm a sissy please let me go!"?
Yes, OB1, just like that...
Well there is this part where if you pay off this one ('better') gang you will get their help in wiping out the other couple gangs... or you can just kill everyone. Your choice.
I killed everyone because I didn't realize that paying them off could be a good thing... :D
That's be cool if you could say, pay off Ganon in Zelda to avoid fighting with him.
Ganon: Link! This is the last time you will defy me!! I will get the triforce and rule all of Hyrule!!
Link: ... You know man... this is getting kind of old. We just keep on doing the same crap over and over. You try to take over Hyrule, cause chaos and destruction, blah blah blah, and my ancestors just keep on whuppin' your ass. Why don't we cut this vicious cycle once and for all. Look, I collected like 9,000 rupees here. So how about I give them to you, you buy yourself a nice cottage somewhere, chill out and leave everyone alone.
Ganon:... Well... huh. You know what kid, that's actually not a bad idea. I'm sick of this bullshit. All I ever really wanted was some peace and quiet, you know? But I just can't stand these stupid elf people, they annoy the hell out of me with their songs and dances. So maybe I should just move to another continent and retire or something. You sure you want to give me that money?
Link: Oh yeah, don't worry about me. There are plenty of pots I can break and fields I can cut up if I need some more moolah. You just have yourself a good time.
Ganon: Well thanks dude, I really appreciate that. Maybe I was wrong about you all this time.
Link: You too, man. You too.
Narrator: And so from that day forward, Hyrule lived in peace... until a civil war broke out between those damned elf people.
~Fin~
Why not... hey, evil people are generally greedy too, right?
Too? Aren't they the most greedy? :D
'too' as in they are greedy in addition to being evil...
You could have phrased it better. :p
I thought it was phrased just fine. So there.