http://ps2.gamespy.com/playstation-2/fin...676p1.html
Quote:Final Fantasy XII was the game I was looking forward to the most at E3 2004. Its development is being headed up by Yasumi Matsuno, the man behind Final Fantasy Tactics, Vagrant Story, Tactics Ogre, and most recently, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. While his games have an ardent following, he's never had the chance to work on anything as huge as a Final Fantasy game. After seeing it unveiled last November and getting to play it a bit today, it's clear that Matsuno and his team are working hard to make this the most successful title they've ever worked on.
GameSpy has already served information on the games world, art direction, and characters. What was unknown until now was how the game would play. The demo on the E3 show floor revealed a handful of scenes to give gamers an idea of what to expect in Final Fantasy XII.
The combat system is very different from previous Final Fantasy games. You won't see random enemy attacks or quick transitions from the level to combat. Skirmishes in FFXII are seamless. If you see an enemy, you can choose to run away like a coward or engage. Unlike past games, the environment plays a significant part of combat. Choosing the best place to attack and defend from can mean the difference between victory and defeat.
When you attack an enemy, a blue arc is displayed between you and your target. The same goes for your party, so you can see who your team is going after. As for your foes, red arcs represent their chosen prey. If you see four red lines pointed at you, then you sure as hell better run to a more advantageous spot in the environment.
Now, there are still some commonalities between the fighting system in this game and the ones found in its predecessors. Though you can let battles play out in real time, it's smarter to take pauses in the action to coordinate optimal strategies.
When you're not in battle, you can use the d-pad to select which character in your party you control, as well as any non-player characters you want to target for actions. Overall, the new navigation and fighting system took a few minutes to get used to, but felt quite natural after a short while.
At any given time, you can adventure with three characters. You can swap others from your roster. Control freaks can choose to select every single move their team members make. The more adventurous types can control the main character, while using "gambit" commands for the others. These are general orders, such as attack, heal, defend, etc. The characters AI kicks in under gambit mode and the character acts fairly independently. The system worked in the few battles I played, but how effective it is in the long haul has yet to be determined.
The display screen is relatively clean. The map is in the upper-right corner of the screen. The main character's menu is on the bottom-left corner. Basic commands occupy the top portion of the screen.
Now that you've got more of on understanding on how the game actually plays, I'll fill you in on more background information on the Final Fantasy XII's version of Ivalice. Matsuno said that even though there are races like Viera and Bangaa in Ivalice, the racial tensions are more cultural. He equated it to America, where there are people of all different ethnic make ups and skin colors, but the conflicts are often economic or religious.
Matsuno also shed some information on Vann and Pennelo. He said they have a very close relationship that isn't necessarily romantic. Both characters have lost their families to war and have turned to each for survival and support. He used the war children in Afghanistan as an example. In that country there are bands of kids that have grouped up to survive.
Overall, he said that the main theme of the game is about a young boy growing up to be a man. Vaan will get caught up in events and experiences that are much larger than his dreams of becoming a sky pirate. His adventure becomes one that could change the fate of the world.
Final Fantasy XII looks like it will be one of the most distinct games in the series. I love the art and story direction Matsuno's team is taking the game in. That said, I doubt it will measure up to how insanely popular FFVII was, but artistically the game might mean more for the series. The graphics look fantastic and the developers are trying several new things in the game. Whether they succeed or not, it's cool to see Square giving the new kids a chance to take its key franchise in a new direction.
Sounds like some much needed changes reach FF... no random combat, plus it sounds like you can move in combat (though how much this is implemented is unclear)! And it's pausable real-time, with AI controlling the characters when you don't want to give them commands. Sounds more like some PC RPGs... though the influence is probably more from the fact that this guy did the Tactics games (though those are turn-based...).
Looks more like strategic movement than real time, which I much prefer. Also, it's still turn based from what I've seen in the trailor.
http://www.eyesonff.com/files/file.cgi?file=Final Fantasy 12/final_fantasy_xii_trailer.mov (You'll need to copy that entire thing as is due to the glitchy nature of the link converter here.)
Anyway, it still looks like the classic fun, only with a bit of a tactics twist. Interesting change in ditching random encounters, though it was inevitable. I guess it's for the best anyway. Now as for battles in the actual environment instead of cut out into a seperate scene, they've been working on doing that from day one, and now it's finally been realized.
I was hoping it would be real-time, a la Star Ocean.
No such luck, I guess. :(
I sold my Ps2, I dont seem to care about FF anymore.
I got KOTOR 2 to look forward too.
I don't really give a shit about FF either, but I could never sell my PS2, because then, how could I get my Silent Hill fix?
*takes off hat* *covers heart* It's the end of era. *puts hat back on* Oh well. It wasn't like random-combat was such a great thing anyway.
Quote:I was hoping it would be real-time, a la Star Ocean.
Star Ocean 2 did battles right. I'm surprised so few other games have battles like that.
FFXII is looking better and better the more I learn about it.
Great Rumbler Wrote:*takes off hat* *covers heart* It's the end of era. *puts hat back on* Oh well. It wasn't like random-combat was such a great thing anyway.
Star Ocean 2 did battles right. I'm surprised so few other games have battles like that.
Star Ocean 2 did so many things right. Xenogears may be my favorite RPG ever cause of the story, but SO2 is my second favorite for practically every other reason, primarily being the most fun RPG I've ever played... an awesome game all around that every RPG developer should look to. Battles are random but they're so much fun to fight that I don't care!
FFX2 was so god damn boring I nearly shit myself.
Why couldnt FFVII-VIII-IX get a sequeil? They were far superior in funability
KOTOR was the best RPG I have played since FF8,Thank god there making a sequeil as we speak.
KOTOR: finally showing console gamers that PC RPGs are good. However, it gets somewhat overrated because of that because of all the people who have played it but not other, previous, PC RPGs...
Anyway, this is making FFXII look more fun. Not real-time maybe, but if it runs itsself unless you intervene (sounds kinda like Lunar in that respect, actually) the difference isn't huge...
The death of random battles is a thing to be celebrated.
Definitely. Which is why I made this thread. They're not dead, but FF losing them for a game is a sign... I hope...
It's probably a good thing, even by my opinion. It's just that if a game's battles are fun, the fact that they just come out from nowhere isn't too important to me. This does allow more control for the player though, ala the Chrono series and the Mario RPG series. That's always good. I suppose it's just not something I ever really had a problem with myself, but I can see how it could be one.
Anyway, I just hope they don't do what SOME U.S. RPGs do (not all) and make it so that there are only a limited number of enemies in the game. It's annoying when you've killed everything and are out of cash without the ability to renew it infinitly in a way that just FEELS right. Enemies in all RPGs, unless it's some sort of survival horror RPG where XP is a precious commodity, should be infinitly respawning.
The thing that always bothered me about random battles was sometimes I just wanted to go to town but it would take forever to get there because I had to fight another battle every two steps. Even the best battle system becomes annoying when you just want to get where you're going.
Tales of Destiny, a great game in every other aspect, was probably the worst with random battles of any game I ever played. You seriously could get into five random battles crossing a single room in a dungeon.
Now, the battle system of ToD was real-time, not as fun or as advanced as SO2's, but still better than FF, so battles tended to be quick. But still, it was way too much.
Quote:Anyway, I just hope they don't do what SOME U.S. RPGs do (not all) and make it so that there are only a limited number of enemies in the game. It's annoying when you've killed everything and are out of cash without the ability to renew it infinitly in a way that just FEELS right. Enemies in all RPGs, unless it's some sort of survival horror RPG where XP is a precious commodity, should be infinitly respawning.
I like it when games do that... though most don't do it that absolutely. For instance, Baldur's Gate. While zones have a specific number of enemies, a few will spawn every so often so you will do a fight or something if you walk across it several times. And there's always a chance of battles going between zones. And, of course, they give you enough quests and stuff that you never have a time where you'd rather be going over the same zones over and over just for money... :)
The action-RPG Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance had it more like how you describe -- each enemy is alive once. No spawning, no regeneration. There are a limited number of enemies in the game and once they're dead there are no more. But I never had problems with money beyond what the game would want because, like almost all PC-style RPGs, you get plenty of stuff from the baddies to sell in the stores... :)
Really, I think that if you have to go back and run around zones you've already beaten for no reason other than to get money or experience (as opposed to on a sidequest or something like that), then it's a fault of poor design.
I see exactly what you are saying there, but it is more along the lines of being able to go back and get what you missed from old enemies. For example, let's say you are a blue mage and want to learn Big Guard, but the only enemy that knows that move so you can experience it is at the beach area. If you killed all of them, you are out of luck. That goes for special one of a kind steals and other stuff.
Besides that, if an area has stuff in it you forgot to get, I think there should still be a challenge in going back to get it. Of course, if you haven't been there in a LONG time, the enemies stand no chance, but you get what I mean.
Anyway, yeah it's not a bad thing, I just like being able to get stuff I missed is all.
Quote:I see exactly what you are saying there, but it is more along the lines of being able to go back and get what you missed from old enemies. For example, let's say you are a blue mage and want to learn Big Guard, but the only enemy that knows that move so you can experience it is at the beach area. If you killed all of them, you are out of luck. That goes for special one of a kind steals and other stuff.
Um, as in that you never have a choice that can't be redone? Console RPGs may follow that, but most PC RPGs don't. It can be annoying, if you do something and cut off some conversation or lose any chance of getting some item and don't realize it immediately and restart from before with a recent save, but... it's more realistic... though I'll admit that in a few games it has been annoying to have to redo something until I get it right, it's better that way... same for special items. Sure, you might not ever be able to get some things. Most RPGs don't let you go anywhere in the game at any time, so it's certainly possible... but it's a game, and you can't expect to be able to get everything... it's not realistic. Unless you use a FAQ that is. :)
Not realistic? Who cares? Spawning has a realistic nature anyway. That's ALL I was talking about too. I refuse to debate whether or not it's good or bad to have stuff you can't get after certain points in the game, okay? I didn't set out to do that.
Anyway, look it's just a convenience. I'm not arguing over gameplay theory here. Lots of Japanese RPGs also have lots of stuff you can never go back and get after various points. I'm just saying I like for enemies to be as available as possible for the convienience of things like stealable items and blue magic, just to list a few. It's just something I'd rather have, being able to go back to enemies without worrying I've killed them all. I never said it was a BAD thing you know.
Okay, discussion over here. Considering I never said you were wrong about anything, I should hope you will drop it too.
Quote:Not realistic? Who cares? Spawning has a realistic nature anyway. That's ALL I was talking about too. I refuse to debate whether or not it's good or bad to have stuff you can't get after certain points in the game, okay? I didn't set out to do that.
Uh,
Quote: That goes for special one of a kind steals and other stuff.
sounded to me like it WAS addressing exactly that issue, DJ... items you can't get once you get past a certain point... in my response I was thinking of Fallout. In the conversations you can easily make irrevocable choices... Baldur's Gate has it too, but it makes it a clearer when you do, and it has a good autosave system to back you up if you mess up. It's kind of annoying to start a fight when you didn't really want to kill those people...
Yeah okay whatever, I am not talking about that.
No, because you haven't played any of the same PC RPGs that I have as far as I know so the discussion wouldn't go far... but still, I don't see any other possible explanation for what you said other thain talking about not being able to go back and get items, which is what I was talking about as well...
Oh, and you don't make sense. You present an opinion. I do the same. Then you say that you didn't present an opinion? Huh? Anyway, without you having played any of the RPGs I reference it's very hard to get you to understand what I mean... like here, if you knew what I meant you'd know that I'm not completely disagreeing with you or anything...
.... what are you TALKING about? I am only talking about enemies, enemies! I wasn't even trying to disagree, nor did I think we were disagreeing. I even agreed with you. You just took it out of context, and when I pointed out that you did, you instead just refuse to allow me to point out what I meant and say "but what you said can only be taken this way!". Look, I know what I meant, and I explained that.
Look, just don't go on with this thing. I'm just stating my opinion, you stated yours, so stop.
If you read what I'm saying, you should be able to see that I'm not really arguing here...
Quote:.... what are you TALKING about? I am only talking about enemies, enemies! I wasn't even trying to disagree, nor did I think we were disagreeing. I even agreed with you. You just took it out of context, and when I pointed out that you did, you instead just refuse to allow me to point out what I meant and say "but what you said can only be taken this way!". Look, I know what I meant, and I explained that.
Um... huh? Kind of confusing here... :)
Quote:That goes for special one of a kind steals and other stuff.
Skills that come from specific enemies, items that come from specific enemies, can you REALLY say that there is much of a difference there? I don't think so.
Oh, and as I said I don't know of any PC RPG where you get skills by taking them from enemies (I have been assuming that you mean it in the style of FF8, correct?). You do. of course, get items from them, though...
Out of context? The whole paragraph then.
Quote:Anyway, look it's just a convenience. I'm not arguing over gameplay theory here. Lots of Japanese RPGs also have lots of stuff you can never go back and get after various points. I'm just saying I like for enemies to be as available as possible for the convienience of things like stealable items and blue magic, just to list a few. It's just something I'd rather have, being able to go back to enemies without worrying I've killed them all. I never said it was a BAD thing you know.
Note - you use the word 'items'. In, it seems to me, the same way I used it... I assume that you think 'I was talking about items, what does that have to do with conversations?'... okay, it's a bit different. But only a bit. It's a very, very similar issue by any standard I can see it by, and in some cases it's the same issue -- like when the result of said conversation is getting or not getting some item, which is a common result of a conversation of the sort I am talking about.
You are comparing Japanese (Console, I assume) to American (PC, I'd imagine) RPGs, correct? Well, I've never heard of a PC RPG that has a system where you get skills by taking them directly from enemies in the style of FF8 (which is what I think you mean in your description of this). Never seen it. What I have seen is enemies with special items that only they have... that, if you do things wrong (such as, as I was describing, in a conversation; though other methods include if you try to steal from someone and fail, or if you don't know where to look for some item and then later are barred from ever returning to that part of the game), you can not get. So I'd say that my response was right on the same discussion, just on a slightly different line.
And as I implied, as I played Fallout I wished it was a bit more lenient... I like having choices in the game matter, but I'd prefer to be able to talk to someone again after making a choice which didn't lead to direct combat or something... I don't like having to load and see what else could happen, if the other choices don't seem to do anything that couldn't have also happened in that one (like, you say something and they respond and it's over but if you said something else something better might happen -- but the first case didn't lead to some catastrophic event so I don't see why I'm not just allowed to talk to them again...). And as I then said, Baldur's Gate did similar things but set it up better and made it clearer. And it also gives you access to almost all the areas in the game... there are some areas you cannot return to, but it's generally made quite clear that you will not be returning so you can prepare accordingly. As for conversations, there are still annoyingly irrevocable situations, but that's as much an effect of the fact that once a character goes 'red' (as in, hostile) that they can never turn non-hostile again in the game as anything else...
SOMETIMES I ACCIDENTLY HOLD SHIFT AND PRESS SOME BUTTON THAT MAKE THE PAGE GO BACK! I WANT TO KILL THAT SHORTCUT COMMAND WITH MY BEAR HANDS! I HAD A LOT TYPED UP JUST NOW!
Okay, as I was saying, and I FORGOT most of it because I already typed it and didn't NEED to remember it any more, I think we both misunderstood each other.
I thought, that YOU thought I was saying I want ALL items in the game to be obtainable at all times. No, don't care about that. Honestly, I just care about the items I can steal from ENEMIES being obtainable whenever I want if possible. I like to know I can find a lot of enemies whenever I need them just in case. I know it's kinda arbitrary, but I don't care, that's just my own little preference.
Now then, you don't get what blue mages are, so I'll have to explain in detail... AGAIN! I HATE HATE HATE THAT STUPID SHORTCUT COMMAND! I WANT THE KEYBOARD TO NOT BE ABLE TO ERASE EVERYTHING I TYPED ACCIDENTLY EVER! Nope, sorry, nothing to do with FF8.
Okay, here's the break down.
White mages cast defensive magic. That includes stuff like cure and remedy, and a LITTLE offensive magic like dia which harms undead only, and the ultimate magic for them, Holy, which does BIG holy-element damage.
Black mages cast offensive magic, like fire and poison. Their ultimate magic is flare, which does MAJOR fire damage.
Later, an ULTIMATE ultimate was made, called ultima. It does big non-elemental damage.
Red mages are a mix of black and white mages which also have fighting ability. They can do a little of everything, but aren't as good at any of it as a specialized class.
Time mages were added later to further specialize. Their magic manipulates space and time. They can cast haste and gravity and such.
Anyway, all of them learn their spells, in most games, in one of two ways. Either they buy or find the spells, or they have to equip special items in order to learn the spells over time.
Summoners, as you can imagine, summon creatures called phantom beasts to do their bidding. Every game has it's own unique story explanation for their existance, from being from another world of magic, to being a manifestation of pure imagination, to being spirits created by the dreams of an ancient world. They learn their summons by either obtaining rare crystals containing their spirits, or defeating them in battle and thus earning their servitude. They can almost never be bought, because they are one of a kind creatures.
Blue mages, which I finally get to (again!), are unique. Monsters in FF games (which is what we were talking about to start with, which is why it applies) have their own unique abilities, based on various factors like being another species or studying a strange unknown discipline of magic. Anyway, a blue mage can learn a large number of these special ability just by experiencing these spells one time. So, as you journey around, you may find a cactuar (cactus creature) that uses a spell called 1000 needles, which causes 1000 HP of damage EVERY time ignoring stats. Just by seeing it that one time, the blue mage after the battle can use it from then on. These spells, as you can imagine, vary widely in effect and have some very unusual properties. Big Guard is a favorite of mine, usually learned from creatures with shells (which are normally required for the spell I suppose). It casts protect (reduces physical damage), shell (reduces magical damage), and haste (increases speed), and sometimes some other buffs, on the entire party. Others include the level variable spells. These are a group of odd blue magic spells learned from various monsters that work based on enemy level. For example, L3 Confuse casts confuse, with 100% accuracy (unless the enemy has 100% resistance to it) on all enemies with a level divisible by 3, but misses enemies that don't match that requirement. Another odd spell is Step Mine, which causes damage with a base that is 1/8 of the total number of steps you have taken. Holy Wind is a cool one. It restores the entire party's HP based on their existing HP (if I remember correctly, it restores 2x the character's existing HP or so, but I'd have to turn the game on and look it up to be sure) Here's one that's annoying. ???? That's right, that's what it is actually called. This spell is never explained in any way in the game. So you have to actually use it to both figure out what it does, and experiment to figure out how it does it's damage. It takes a lot of using that mystery spell to figure out exactly how it works, believe you me... As for an "ultimate", well for this class it varies. In FF6, there was a special boss you had to face to learn a rare spell called Grand Train. That one is straight forward, it does super ultra amazing non elemental damage that ignores magic defense. Anyway, the blue mage is a favorite of mine because of how varied and odd the various spells it learns are, and the unusual way they are learned.
Here's the deal, while limited enemies is fine for some games, for others I prefer to have unlimited enemies. I just think FF should keep that particular aspect.
When I play FF7, I focus heavily on building Enemy Skill materia. When you have one loaded, almost every other materia is useless.
I love a mastered enemy skill materia too, and I tend to have 3 of them fully mastered, and one with just one spell missing (since I get it after beating the last enemy that knows that one spell) by the end of the game. Blue magic is fun.
Quote:I thought, that YOU thought I was saying I want ALL items in the game to be obtainable at all times. No, don't care about that. Honestly, I just care about the items I can steal from ENEMIES being obtainable whenever I want if possible. I like to know I can find a lot of enemies whenever I need them just in case. I know it's kinda arbitrary, but I don't care, that's just my own little preference.
Um, so you didn't mean what you said? Because it seemed pretty clear that you meant more than just having accesss to any enemies at any time, you were talking about having access to specific kinds of enemies at any time...
Quote:White mages cast defensive magic. That includes stuff like cure and remedy, and a LITTLE offensive magic like dia which harms undead only, and the ultimate magic for them, Holy, which does BIG holy-element damage.
Aka "Clerics". :) Yes, I know them, they're in FFTA...
Quote:Black mages cast offensive magic, like fire and poison. Their ultimate magic is flare, which does MAJOR fire damage.
Red mages are a mix of black and white mages which also have fighting ability. They can do a little of everything, but aren't as good at any of it as a specialized class.
Time mages were added later to further specialize. Their magic manipulates space and time. They can cast haste and gravity and such.
Yes yes, I know these four classes from FFTA... I don't have any blue mages (yet?), though, so I don't know their specialty.
Quote:Anyway, all of them learn their spells, in most games, in one of two ways. Either they buy or find the spells, or they have to equip special items in order to learn the spells over time.
Summoners, as you can imagine, summon creatures called phantom beasts to do their bidding. Every game has it's own unique story explanation for their existance, from being from another world of magic, to being a manifestation of pure imagination, to being spirits created by the dreams of an ancient world. They learn their summons by either obtaining rare crystals containing their spirits, or defeating them in battle and thus earning their servitude. They can almost never be bought, because they are one of a kind creatures.
Summoners in Disciples II are stupid and useless. Always get the mages. :)
Quote:Blue mages, which I finally get to (again!), are unique. Monsters in FF games (which is what we were talking about to start with, which is why it applies) have their own unique abilities, based on various factors like being another species or studying a strange unknown discipline of magic. Anyway, a blue mage can learn a large number of these special ability just by experiencing these spells one time. So, as you journey around, you may find a cactuar (cactus creature) that uses a spell called 1000 needles, which causes 1000 HP of damage EVERY time ignoring stats. Just by seeing it that one time, the blue mage after the battle can use it from then on. These spells, as you can imagine, vary widely in effect and have some very unusual properties. Big Guard is a favorite of mine, usually learned from creatures with shells (which are normally required for the spell I suppose). It casts protect (reduces physical damage), shell (reduces magical damage), and haste (increases speed), and sometimes some other buffs, on the entire party. Others include the level variable spells. These are a group of odd blue magic spells learned from various monsters that work based on enemy level. For example, L3 Confuse casts confuse, with 100% accuracy (unless the enemy has 100% resistance to it) on all enemies with a level divisible by 3, but misses enemies that don't match that requirement. Another odd spell is Step Mine, which causes damage with a base that is 1/8 of the total number of steps you have taken. Holy Wind is a cool one. It restores the entire party's HP based on their existing HP (if I remember correctly, it restores 2x the character's existing HP or so, but I'd have to turn the game on and look it up to be sure) Here's one that's annoying. ???? That's right, that's what it is actually called. This spell is never explained in any way in the game. So you have to actually use it to both figure out what it does, and experiment to figure out how it does it's damage. It takes a lot of using that mystery spell to figure out exactly how it works, believe you me... As for an "ultimate", well for this class it varies. In FF6, there was a special boss you had to face to learn a rare spell called Grand Train. That one is straight forward, it does super ultra amazing non elemental damage that ignores magic defense. Anyway, the blue mage is a favorite of mine because of how varied and odd the various spells it learns are, and the unusual way they are learned.
Nothing like FF8? But it sounds quite a bit like that 'steal magic' ability in FF8 to me... you use an ability and take the magic from them, getting it for yourself... a bit different, sure, but a similar thing.
As I said, I've never heard of a PC RPG that uses such a system, so I don't understand your complaint about this issue and American RPGs, which is why I talked about items. That's the only similar issue in American RPGs.
No, you don't use an ability at all. You experience the enemy's ability and permanently learn it for yourself just by observing it. No "drawing" at all, or anything like it. FORGET FF8 okay? Stop trying to compare or take what I said to mean it that way. Take it the way I INTEND it to mean! Yeesh... once you get an interpretation, you NEVER let it go, EVER, do you?
And it's not a complaint! It's fine for American RPGs, but in a game like Final Fantasy, which is what I was talking about, and that's it, I prefer to have enemies constantly respawning. It's just a preference. Okay? Why can't I just have an opinion without you analyzing it to the tenth degree and saying I'm wrong to think it? I just wanted to let you know what I thought, not debate it! I don't care enough about that opinion to think of it as worth defending!
Oh by the way, never played Disciples 2, but in FF, summoning is about the best thing you can learn to do. The attacks of the phantom beasts, or aeons, or espers, or whatever, are always a LOT stronger than any magic spell.
Quote:Oh by the way, never played Disciples 2, but in FF, summoning is about the best thing you can learn to do. The attacks of the phantom beasts, or aeons, or espers, or whatever, are always a LOT stronger than any magic spell.
I know. They have nothing in common. Disciples is a strategy game... though it uses parties of 4 to 6, and doesn't have moving in combat. Each character has one ability they can do... the summoners can summon these elementals that fill in empty spots in the 6-unit grid of yours. Only useful for lower level people without a leadership of 5 or 6 (for having more people in the party), and useless for most of the game... as I said, a stupid thing and I don't really get why they put them in. Especially since if the mage dies all his elementals do too...
(btw, that was called a non sequitur, I'd say. :))
Quote:No, you don't use an ability at all. You experience the enemy's ability and permanently learn it for yourself just by observing it. No "drawing" at all, or anything like it. FORGET FF8 okay? Stop trying to compare or take what I said to mean it that way. Take it the way I INTEND it to mean! Yeesh... once you get an interpretation, you NEVER let it go, EVER, do you?
And it's not a complaint! It's fine for American RPGs, but in a game like Final Fantasy, which is what I was talking about, and that's it, I prefer to have enemies constantly respawning. It's just a preference. Okay? Why can't I just have an opinion without you analyzing it to the tenth degree and saying I'm wrong to think it? I just wanted to let you know what I thought, not debate it! I don't care enough about that opinion to think of it as worth defending!
It's called discussing games. As in, WHAT THIS FORUM IS HERE FOR! Talking about games! If you don't like to talk about games why do you come here?
Oh, and as I said, this is not an arguement. Well, if you really want it to be it could be, but I'd rather it wasn't. Game discussions are much more pleasant when you just discuss, not get angry and argue...
Quote:No, you don't use an ability at all. You experience the enemy's ability and permanently learn it for yourself just by observing it. No "drawing" at all, or anything like it. FORGET FF8 okay?
Um... it's the same concept - take enemies' abilities from them. Blue mages do it by having it cast at them, FF8 by using an ability on them, Baldur's Gate by ... well, everyone has the same spell lists... taking their special item (as treasure), if it's that, or by finding a scroll of that spell (maybe off of them) and learning it that way. But it's all the same thing, just implemented differently... can you REALLY not see that? It's a simple concept.
Quote:And it's not a complaint! It's fine for American RPGs, but in a game like Final Fantasy, which is what I was talking about, and that's it, I prefer to have enemies constantly respawning. It's just a preference. Okay? Why can't I just have an opinion without you analyzing it to the tenth degree and saying I'm wrong to think it? I just wanted to let you know what I thought, not debate it! I don't care enough about that opinion to think of it as worth defending!
Just wondering. How many RPGs have you played where there truly is NO kind of respawning? As I said, the only one I can think of that I've played that is like that for sure is Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance... though some older PC RPGs, dungeon hacks like Stonekeep, might also be that way. Not sure. Anyway, it's a definite minority so I'm not sure why you bring it up as a major problem if you mean it only in the sense of having any kind of enemy to fight, not some specific kind like you were talking about with the blue mages.
It's not that, it's that you keep bringing it up when I don't want to talk about it any more. Why can't you just let a subject die? Can't you sense when someone's "had enough"? I never wanted to debate it either, that's why I decided to stop talking about it, because that's what you were doing, and ARE doing.
Look, let's just drop it, okay? No need to get into a debate when the other person is totally unwilling to, in fact it's RUDE.
Did you just meet ABF? ;)
OB1, stop being a hypocrite... this is EXACTLY what gets you so annoyed at DJ... bringing up an issue and then refusing to talk about it.
If it turns into a never-ending circle of dumbness then I like it to stop. You never know when to stop. NEVER.
You're just trying to justify comments of yours that conflict... if it was you who to DJ brought up an issue and then refused to talk about that issue you'd be pretty annoyed! I know because when that happens you GET pretty annoyed...
That said, this seems a stupid thing for DJ to get annoyed about. It's a interesting topic which we don't seem to disagree too much on... I don't see the big problem here, except for DJ's standard knee-jerk reaction against discussing things.
It's not the discussion! I know we don't disagree, but you started actually ARGUING about it, as though we did. I was happy just to explain my opinion, but when you want to debate it, that's another issue. I certainly wasn't in the mood to go into a debate about the whole thing, so you should just listen to that.
Okay, maybe you didn't think you were being argumentative. However, when you keep disagreeing with me on what I meant, it sounds argumentative to me, and I didn't want to get into it.
Arguing? No, not really. As I said, discussing. As I said, the fact that you refused to discuss something as simple as this annoys me a LOT more than any "arguing" I did in those posts that I did (which, again, I would not call arguing) did... it's really, really annoying how you so frequently start discussion on some subject and then quit and act annoyed when anyone else actually wants to TALK about that subject. The horror!
Oh, and if you wanted to make your statement clear, instead of repeating the same things over and over, you should have just said exactly what you meant by that one statement I quoted like four times...
Looks like arguing to me.
I THOUGHT I did. And really, you DO sound very argumentative. You weren't trying to argue it with other people, but with one specific person, me, who didnt' really want to get into an argument over it. Sorry, but it really did seem like an argument when I said "that's just my personal preference" and you say "but that's not a problem at all!". I didn't say it was a problem for everyone, or even an actual problem really, just something I PERSONALLY find annoying. Why elaborate on it? Why not leave it at that? I must ask you this. In the real world, do you find that people get upset at you often for continuing a conversation long after they said "just drop it"? I'm sure it's happened to you at least ONCE.
OB1: So how do you define the difference between discussing or debating and arguing?
Da Nile: No longer just a river in Egypt!! :far-out:
I'm just going to show that I still do not understand your points, partly because from my perspective they seem to be contradictory, in some ways. (all quotes of yours)
Not so much argumentative, I'd say, as continually confused... and maybe more argumentative as you continued to not answer the questions I was asking. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I more want to understand what you mean... and it gets annoying as I continue to fail to do so.
Quote:Anyway, I just hope they don't do what SOME U.S. RPGs do (not all) and make it so that there are only a limited number of enemies in the game. It's annoying when you've killed everything and are out of cash without the ability to renew it infinitly in a way that just FEELS right. Enemies in all RPGs, unless it's some sort of survival horror RPG where XP is a precious commodity, should be infinitly respawning.
I still want to know what these mysterious US RPGs are that have a strict limit on the number of enemies (other than BGDA)! It sounds like you've played such games, and I'm wondering what they were... been asking that from the beginning, and you still haven't answered. Neverwinter Nights? I doubt it has a hard rule like BGDA... I'd bet it's closer to BG2, where you can kill all the enemies in an area but there are always a few around and the game has more than enough enemies anyway to satisfy anyone. I just don't know of any games that definitely do this other than Dark Alliance. And, maybe, the other Dark Alliance engine games -- that is, Dark Alliance 2, Fallout - Brotherhood of Steel (the console action-RPG), and that PS2 EverQuest action-RPG... but I can't be sure because I haven't played those games.
As for if I liked it, I don't know. It's an interesting choice, limiting progression by limited enemies. Now, I never was lacking for more things to kill, and I really liked being able to go through old areas without fighting constantly... but honestly, I'd probably have preferred a Baldur's Gate style where there is a small, but real, chance of running into new monsters in old areas.
Quote:I see exactly what you are saying there, but it is more along the lines of being able to go back and get what you missed from old enemies. For example, let's say you are a blue mage and want to learn Big Guard, but the only enemy that knows that move so you can experience it is at the beach area. If you killed all of them, you are out of luck. That goes for special one of a kind steals and other stuff.
Besides that, if an area has stuff in it you forgot to get, I think there should still be a challenge in going back to get it. Of course, if you haven't been there in a LONG time, the enemies stand no chance, but you get what I mean.
Anyway, yeah it's not a bad thing, I just like being able to get stuff I missed is all.
Quote:Not realistic? Who cares? Spawning has a realistic nature anyway. That's ALL I was talking about too. I refuse to debate whether or not it's good or bad to have stuff you can't get after certain points in the game, okay? I didn't set out to do that.
Anyway, look it's just a convenience. I'm not arguing over gameplay theory here. Lots of Japanese RPGs also have lots of stuff you can never go back and get after various points. I'm just saying I like for enemies to be as available as possible for the convienience of things like stealable items and blue magic, just to list a few. It's just something I'd rather have, being able to go back to enemies without worrying I've killed them all. I never said it was a BAD thing you know.
Okay, discussion over here. Considering I never said you were wrong about anything, I should hope you will drop it too.
These seem to be at least somewhat in conflict. I said this before, but since you've just repeated this second quote, not addressed my question of their conflict... I'm still really wondering about this. I'm trying to understand just what exactly you meant...
So you just meant enemies?
Quote:.... what are you TALKING about? I am only talking about enemies, enemies! I wasn't even trying to disagree, nor did I think we were disagreeing. I even agreed with you. You just took it out of context, and when I pointed out that you did, you instead just refuse to allow me to point out what I meant and say "but what you said can only be taken this way!". Look, I know what I meant, and I explained that.
Look, just don't go on with this thing. I'm just stating my opinion, you stated yours, so stop.
This, from my perspective, disagrees with the first of this sequence (second quote of yours). You've said "I didn't mean it that way" several times, but i still don't see any other way to take it...
Quote:I see exactly what you are saying there, but it is more along the lines of being able to go back and get what you missed from old enemies. For example, let's say you are a blue mage and want to learn Big Guard, but the only enemy that knows that move so you can experience it is at the beach area. If you killed all of them, you are out of luck. That goes for special one of a kind steals and other stuff.
Besides that, if an area has stuff in it you forgot to get, I think there should still be a challenge in going back to get it. Of course, if you haven't been there in a LONG time, the enemies stand no chance, but you get what I mean.
Anyway, yeah it's not a bad thing, I just like being able to get stuff I missed is all.
This sounds to me like you are talking about several issues. First, being able to go back and fight old enemies to get abilities or items from them that you could only get from them. And second (and lesser), being able to access the areas where these enemies are located.
Now, since then you've said, if I get you correctly, that both of those are false and what you ACTUALLY meant was just being able to access ANY kind of enemy at any given point -- not specific enemies, like you seem to be talking about, but just any kind of enemy, for levelling up purposes or something. Or do I get you wrong?
See what I mean, I'm confused?
Actually, I think I understand it. Your arguement changed as the discussion progressed but you didn't see it. For instance (a little later, last really relevant quote, IMO)...
Quote:And it's not a complaint! It's fine for American RPGs, but in a game like Final Fantasy, which is what I was talking about, and that's it, I prefer to have enemies constantly respawning. It's just a preference. Okay? Why can't I just have an opinion without you analyzing it to the tenth degree and saying I'm wrong to think it? I just wanted to let you know what I thought, not debate it! I don't care enough about that opinion to think of it as worth defending!
All I was talking about was FF?
Quote:Anyway, I just hope they don't do what SOME U.S. RPGs do (not all) and make it so that there are only a limited number of enemies in the game. It's annoying when you've killed everything and are out of cash without the ability to renew it infinitly in a way that just FEELS right. Enemies in all RPGs, unless it's some sort of survival horror RPG where XP is a precious commodity, should be infinitly respawning.
This was your quote that started this discussion. And it discussed FF, but not by name and only by comparison to American RPGs...
It's just frusterating when I try to discuss something and you kind of shift in positions, I think, and then pull out leaving me still quite confused.
I tried making it clear what I meant, but you kept up, so I said "forget it, I don't care enough to get into a whole thing about it". Why does that annoy you so much?
Because as I showed in that post, you are quite definitely not clear in what you meant...
Oh, and you care to some degree because you keep posting here. :)
You're right about that, and that's a part of me I'm trying to kill off by starvation.
Now, all I'm trying to say is if the other person says they don't want to talk about it any more, it's polite to go with their wishes and just drop it. You know, there's an entire expression created specifically for situations like this, where one person doesn't get what the other person said, but the other person doesn't really care about it anyway afterall and just wants to end the conversation. It's the infamous "never mind".
So, never mind!
And my point is that it's not too nice to get into a discussion and then quit leaving the other person confused about what you meant!
A Black Falcon Wrote:OB1: So how do you define the difference between discussing or debating and arguing?
The fact that you do not know the answer to this question proves everyone's point.
Quote:The fact that you do not know the answer to this question proves everyone's point.
I was asking what you thought the answer was, not saying I don't think I have one...
It's arguing once people get annoyed at eachother and the debate breaks down into more like yelling at eachother. Discussion or debate is when it's more civil and you might be getting somewhere in it.