29th April 2004, 6:44 PM
29th April 2004, 7:15 PM
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29th April 2004, 11:02 PM
It helps me sleep better tonight (not really) because now I know for a fact that you couldn't argue yourself out of a paper bag if your life depended on it. But it was fun leading you on even if just to see how far you would go to prove a non-issue that is barely a discussion in the first place.
Loony Toons for example were made in strict time periods with little money in deserted lots at movie studios. Most of the time they didn't know how the cartoon would end and had to deal with the production of 10 cartoons at once, so they would just completely break the laws of physics for fun. It had no logic, it had no reason, it had no script it had only one purpose; to be funny. They didn't design any theories of comedy or write a thesis on "Loony Toons subtextual underlining meanings behind physics in toon world". They simply made the characters do whacky things for laughs.
Walt Disney himself called it imagineering, where you imagine how something could work if you could completely break all the laws of physics. And that's exactly what B~K is, it's a 3-D adventure platformer... with comedy. If Kazooie wanted to she could become a tank or a sword or a gun or a boomerang or whatever the game designers would want her to be While Banjo himself could become a Washing Machine or a Tyranosaurus - or learn a new move where suddenly your backpack heals you but it doesn't heal Kazooie. Anything goes, even a bird becoming a plane... which takes very little imagination, OB1. Even for you.
oh yeah, the contradiction you made was very simple, you said Kazooie cant act like a plane; I showed that she easily can with her tail feathers, and then you agreed with me yet continued to argue and completely miss the fact that I gave kazooie an ability that never existed before, is completely out of character (she could only twirl her tail for a few seconds and she could only do it underwater), makes no sense and has absolutely no basis in any B~K game but i'm not done yet. You, the person who says that a character MUST behave the same way in every game and OBEY LAWS made in the first game for the rest of their carreers and argues that he is the best arguer - Failed to realize that Kazooie is in a backpack and CANT USE HER TAIL FEATHERS. Fun stuff :D
Oh... and Bo is a nigger. :nodding:
A talented, beautiful nigger.
And you love him, dont you, OB1? yeah... OB1 likes the black. :kiss:
Come on buddy, let's see my little man get angry at mean old lazyfatbum because he made you look like an idiot in front of all his friends... oh wait... sorry, that was low. :( But you'll get friends someday.... when you're rich.
*tap dances out of thread waving top hat around*
Loony Toons for example were made in strict time periods with little money in deserted lots at movie studios. Most of the time they didn't know how the cartoon would end and had to deal with the production of 10 cartoons at once, so they would just completely break the laws of physics for fun. It had no logic, it had no reason, it had no script it had only one purpose; to be funny. They didn't design any theories of comedy or write a thesis on "Loony Toons subtextual underlining meanings behind physics in toon world". They simply made the characters do whacky things for laughs.
Walt Disney himself called it imagineering, where you imagine how something could work if you could completely break all the laws of physics. And that's exactly what B~K is, it's a 3-D adventure platformer... with comedy. If Kazooie wanted to she could become a tank or a sword or a gun or a boomerang or whatever the game designers would want her to be While Banjo himself could become a Washing Machine or a Tyranosaurus - or learn a new move where suddenly your backpack heals you but it doesn't heal Kazooie. Anything goes, even a bird becoming a plane... which takes very little imagination, OB1. Even for you.
oh yeah, the contradiction you made was very simple, you said Kazooie cant act like a plane; I showed that she easily can with her tail feathers, and then you agreed with me yet continued to argue and completely miss the fact that I gave kazooie an ability that never existed before, is completely out of character (she could only twirl her tail for a few seconds and she could only do it underwater), makes no sense and has absolutely no basis in any B~K game but i'm not done yet. You, the person who says that a character MUST behave the same way in every game and OBEY LAWS made in the first game for the rest of their carreers and argues that he is the best arguer - Failed to realize that Kazooie is in a backpack and CANT USE HER TAIL FEATHERS. Fun stuff :D
Oh... and Bo is a nigger. :nodding:
A talented, beautiful nigger.
And you love him, dont you, OB1? yeah... OB1 likes the black. :kiss:
Come on buddy, let's see my little man get angry at mean old lazyfatbum because he made you look like an idiot in front of all his friends... oh wait... sorry, that was low. :( But you'll get friends someday.... when you're rich.
*tap dances out of thread waving top hat around*
30th April 2004, 12:10 AM
And now, it's the DJ show! Ta~ (jumps onto stage and no one claps or anything) da...
...You can all kiss the fattest part of my arse!
Seriously OB1, I was about to post the same thing, but lazy beat me to it, making me realize he was setting you up the entire time ON PURPOSE.
For a moment though, let's ignore THIS particular example of your lack of imagination. You see, rather than say "oh, never thought of that, guess you're right" (which it turns out, you aren't because flying like a glider with upward thrust for no reason would STILL totally rock) you say "That doesn't count because I didn't think of that!", which is NOT a defense in ANY argument. In fact, our whole argument WAS that you just weren't creative enough to think of how it would work, hence why lazy had to come up with something he thought you COULD imagine well enough (even though, as he points out it wouldn't work, well unless the bottom of the backpack was torn open to allow the tailfeathers to come out there, actually that would be pretty neat :D).
OB1, yes, I know I'm being rude, and so is lazy, but that doesn't excuse you because you too are being VERY mean here. You know, you have NEVER once admitted you were wrong about ANYTHING here? Wait, that's not true, one time you did. That GCN Fire Emblem thing, but that's it. I know I know "That's because I'm always RIGHT around here and surrounded by idiots!", but seriously, REALLY seriously, I have to ask. ARE you capable of admitting you are wrong about something, namely, are you capable of admitting you are wrong even when it would be very embarressing to do so? Honestly, at this point I really have to wonder if you could ever admit you are wrong. I have a feeling that if you actually got into a huge argument about a GCN Fire Emblem, you would never have posted the thread about it existing or responded to it when it was made, maybe just kinda saying "that's cool" but at the same time acting like you never once argued against it ever being made. Honestly, when you get like this, it's very hard to consider you a friend.
...You can all kiss the fattest part of my arse!
Seriously OB1, I was about to post the same thing, but lazy beat me to it, making me realize he was setting you up the entire time ON PURPOSE.
For a moment though, let's ignore THIS particular example of your lack of imagination. You see, rather than say "oh, never thought of that, guess you're right" (which it turns out, you aren't because flying like a glider with upward thrust for no reason would STILL totally rock) you say "That doesn't count because I didn't think of that!", which is NOT a defense in ANY argument. In fact, our whole argument WAS that you just weren't creative enough to think of how it would work, hence why lazy had to come up with something he thought you COULD imagine well enough (even though, as he points out it wouldn't work, well unless the bottom of the backpack was torn open to allow the tailfeathers to come out there, actually that would be pretty neat :D).
OB1, yes, I know I'm being rude, and so is lazy, but that doesn't excuse you because you too are being VERY mean here. You know, you have NEVER once admitted you were wrong about ANYTHING here? Wait, that's not true, one time you did. That GCN Fire Emblem thing, but that's it. I know I know "That's because I'm always RIGHT around here and surrounded by idiots!", but seriously, REALLY seriously, I have to ask. ARE you capable of admitting you are wrong about something, namely, are you capable of admitting you are wrong even when it would be very embarressing to do so? Honestly, at this point I really have to wonder if you could ever admit you are wrong. I have a feeling that if you actually got into a huge argument about a GCN Fire Emblem, you would never have posted the thread about it existing or responded to it when it was made, maybe just kinda saying "that's cool" but at the same time acting like you never once argued against it ever being made. Honestly, when you get like this, it's very hard to consider you a friend.
30th April 2004, 9:49 AM
Quote:It helps me sleep better tonight (not really) because now I know for a fact that you couldn't argue yourself out of a paper bag if your life depended on it. But it was fun leading you on even if just to see how far you would go to prove a non-issue that is barely a discussion in the first place.Haha, if I only I could learn from the great lazyfatbum the art of debating. Yes, what I would need to is to dodge the other person's points, make example to back up my points that aren't even appropriate, and then talk about how someone smarter than me says I'm wrong. GENIUS!
Quote:Loony Toons for example were made in strict time periods with little money in deserted lots at movie studios. Most of the time they didn't know how the cartoon would end and had to deal with the production of 10 cartoons at once, so they would just completely break the laws of physics for fun. It had no logic, it had no reason, it had no script it had only one purpose; to be funny. They didn't design any theories of comedy or write a thesis on "Loony Toons subtextual underlining meanings behind physics in toon world". They simply made the characters do whacky things for laughs.All of the great animators of the 20th century talked about realism within fantasy, where you need to make boundaries even for insane cartoon physics. Iwata actually made a very similar speach this past GDC, you should check it out. Perhaps then you won't look like such an asswipe.
Walt Disney himself called it imagineering, where you imagine how something could work if you could completely break all the laws of physics. And that's exactly what B~K is, it's a 3-D adventure platformer... with comedy. If Kazooie wanted to she could become a tank or a sword or a gun or a boomerang or whatever the game designers would want her to be While Banjo himself could become a Washing Machine or a Tyranosaurus - or learn a new move where suddenly your backpack heals you but it doesn't heal Kazooie. Anything goes, even a bird becoming a plane... which takes very little imagination, OB1. Even for you.
Quote:oh yeah, the contradiction you made was very simple, you said Kazooie cant act like a plane; I showed that she easily can with her tail feathers, and then you agreed with me yet continued to argue and completely miss the fact that I gave kazooie an ability that never existed before, is completely out of character (she could only twirl her tail for a few seconds and she could only do it underwater), makes no sense and has absolutely no basis in any B~K game but i'm not done yet. You, the person who says that a character MUST behave the same way in every game and OBEY LAWS made in the first game for the rest of their carreers and argues that he is the best arguer - Failed to realize that Kazooie is in a backpack and CANT USE HER TAIL FEATHERS. Fun stuffAh, but that is where you are wrong. If Banjo were to ride on top of Kazooie rather than carry her on his back, she could use her tail feathers. At first I couldn't think of a good way to make Kazooie fly like a plane, and neither could you. But that last example sounded like it could actually work.
30th April 2004, 9:54 AM
Not only could he, he did! And for that matter, you just contradicted yourself again! You first say Kazooie shouldn't be flying in a pilot game because she never flew like that before, well she SURE as spit never flew with Banjo on TOP of her before! Not saying it would be bad, because I have an imagination, but you of all people should at least be aware of your OWN argument when debating.
30th April 2004, 10:00 AM
Again you fail to grasp a word that I say. You can give Kazooie new abilities but they have to make sense, and flying as she did in the Banjo games would not work in a racing game. However, switching them around (Banjo on top) and having her not flap her wings and propel herself with her tail could work.
30th April 2004, 10:17 AM
Of course it would work! Lazy didn't come up with that new idea because he was saying the old one "wouldn't work", he did it to trip you up! Why exactly WOULD the tail propeller thing make so much more sense, or Banjo riding on top? They defy the existing abilities they had just as much, if not more so, than the really cool flying method lazy imagineered at the start!
I grasp exactly what you say, to the point I see the contradictions. You first say the abilities have to make sense. The context you provide for "making sense" after we point out that NOTHING makes sense in the Banjo universe is that it has to make sense FOR THAT WORLD. We point out that it DOES, it's just something new and different. You respond that it has to make sense for that world with an explanation. We respond that a lot of abilities have NO good explanation at all. They are all VERY valid examples to draw from, but you arbitrarily decide that they aren't. All your reasons that examples like the power shields in SSB (which have NO explanation at ALL, and don't NEED one, and we know you agree with that) are EXACTLY the same as this. None is needed to explain a slight boost in speed or better handling! Also, we state there's no vital utter change in KAzooie because she is not KNOW for being slow, just carying a bear around. You say "it has to be in a recognizable way that makes logical sense" going backwards I might add.
Then lazy comes up with a different example to set you up, that propeller thing. You buy it hook line and sinker, saying "yeah that would work". The SECOND you said that, you admitted you were wrong. The argument the whole time, as you can see, was that Kazooie COULD work as a plane and you weren't imaginative enough to see how. But that's not all. By saying that could work, you were saying this propeller method was someone MORE in line with KAzooie's character than flying like she normally does! How can you not see that? By YOUR VERY ARGUMENTS, the propeller method would actually be WORSE.
Then you go on to say, when pointed out that she couldn't fly like that due to the backpack, that Banjo could ride her! Of all the things you said, that's the BIGGEST contradiction. That goes against how we know Kazooie more than anything else! You go on to say it makes more sense, even though it violates YOUR OWN RULES for what constitutes making sense in the Banjo world!
Listen, this whole post I have VERY methodically explained exactly why you are wrong, using good logic to explain your BAD logic.
I grasp exactly what you say, to the point I see the contradictions. You first say the abilities have to make sense. The context you provide for "making sense" after we point out that NOTHING makes sense in the Banjo universe is that it has to make sense FOR THAT WORLD. We point out that it DOES, it's just something new and different. You respond that it has to make sense for that world with an explanation. We respond that a lot of abilities have NO good explanation at all. They are all VERY valid examples to draw from, but you arbitrarily decide that they aren't. All your reasons that examples like the power shields in SSB (which have NO explanation at ALL, and don't NEED one, and we know you agree with that) are EXACTLY the same as this. None is needed to explain a slight boost in speed or better handling! Also, we state there's no vital utter change in KAzooie because she is not KNOW for being slow, just carying a bear around. You say "it has to be in a recognizable way that makes logical sense" going backwards I might add.
Then lazy comes up with a different example to set you up, that propeller thing. You buy it hook line and sinker, saying "yeah that would work". The SECOND you said that, you admitted you were wrong. The argument the whole time, as you can see, was that Kazooie COULD work as a plane and you weren't imaginative enough to see how. But that's not all. By saying that could work, you were saying this propeller method was someone MORE in line with KAzooie's character than flying like she normally does! How can you not see that? By YOUR VERY ARGUMENTS, the propeller method would actually be WORSE.
Then you go on to say, when pointed out that she couldn't fly like that due to the backpack, that Banjo could ride her! Of all the things you said, that's the BIGGEST contradiction. That goes against how we know Kazooie more than anything else! You go on to say it makes more sense, even though it violates YOUR OWN RULES for what constitutes making sense in the Banjo world!
Listen, this whole post I have VERY methodically explained exactly why you are wrong, using good logic to explain your BAD logic.
30th April 2004, 10:54 AM
Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Are you really that stupid? It doesn't matter if they didn't do that specific move before, because it just has to make sense without any elaborate explanation needed. Suddenly making Kazooie fly really fast and like a plane the way she flew in the Banjo games would not make sense, but changing it around in the way lazy suggested does work and is not contradictory to her abilities. As usual you have completely ignored the point of my entire argument, which is that as they were shown in the Banjo games, Kazooie as a plane would not work at all. Lazy first suggested that she fly just like she did before and completely ignored her speed and movement. It's true, I hadn't though of Banjo sitting on top of her and Kazooie using her tail to propel herself, that's a good idea. If lazy had said it that way from the beginning then I would have said "yeah, that could work". There is absolutely nothing contradictory about anything I have said in this debate, you either do not understand the meaning of the word or haven't the intelligence to understand my arguments. Really DJ, this is a new low for you.
30th April 2004, 11:01 AM
And once again you completely fail to understand your own argument. Since when was that other idea ever presented in the game might I ask, and why can't it just be different? We all SAID she just needs maybe a bit more speed but would work fine, and you think that would need an explanation, but apparently her flying with Banjo on top and her using a propeller tail needs none? Get a grip!
30th April 2004, 11:28 AM
Quote:And once again you completely fail to understand your own argument. Since when was that other idea ever presented in the game might I ask, and why can't it just be different? We all SAID she just needs maybe a bit more speed but would work fine, and you think that would need an explanation, but apparently her flying with Banjo on top and her using a propeller tail needs none? Get a grip!
Stupid, pay attention this one last time. I am not going to repeat myself, this is going to be my last post in this thread, and I will not even enter it again just so that I don't feel compelled to respond to one of your idiotic posts. So pay attention!!
The Banjo-Kazooie set-up seen in the Banjo games would not work in a racing game because Kazooie is too slow and the flight model (if you can call it that) would be very bad for a racing game. HOWEVER, if you were to change the B-K set-up in a way that would make sense in the world of Banjo-Kazooie like how lazy just suggested, it COULD work! You could have a little cinematic in Banjo Pilot showing Kazooie with flight goggles, and Banjo asking her what the deal was. Then she'd explain that she just graduated from bird flight school and can fly just as fast as any man-made plane now that she has learned a new way of flying. You'd see her all ready to go, Banjo jump on her back, end cinema. Maybe not quite like that, but you get the idea.
30th April 2004, 12:03 PM
And why would that make MORE sense than her flying like lazy's first idea?
30th April 2004, 5:27 PM
lmao are you just egging him on DJ or are you actually trying to give him an anurism? This is the best thread ever. I need one of those clickers to keep up with how many times OB1 said something contradicting to his own view points or simply said something dumb.
OB1: Kazooie cannot/can do whatever the programers want to do with her, You CAN/CANNOT, however, dumbass, make Kazooie do/do not whatever you need to do/cannot do but she cant/can fly like a plane idiot, but she CAN/CANNOT become a plane as long as it's done the way I say it should be done. God, why is this so difficult/easy for you MORONS to understand? All i'm saying is yes/no and maybe if it's in my favor. That's ALL i'm saying! And I'm not contradicting you RETARD. I'm CONTRADICTING, there is/isn't a difference/similarity, idiot. Jesus Christ/Moses.
Bravo, OB1. You should write tax forms. Hell, you probably do/do not.
OB1: Kazooie cannot/can do whatever the programers want to do with her, You CAN/CANNOT, however, dumbass, make Kazooie do/do not whatever you need to do/cannot do but she cant/can fly like a plane idiot, but she CAN/CANNOT become a plane as long as it's done the way I say it should be done. God, why is this so difficult/easy for you MORONS to understand? All i'm saying is yes/no and maybe if it's in my favor. That's ALL i'm saying! And I'm not contradicting you RETARD. I'm CONTRADICTING, there is/isn't a difference/similarity, idiot. Jesus Christ/Moses.
Bravo, OB1. You should write tax forms. Hell, you probably do/do not.
30th April 2004, 8:12 PM
Ya got a point. Honestly, once again I failed to upkeep my own goal of never getting into an idiotic debate like this. There's blame I need to take for this, because by responding I WAS in fact egging OB1 on.
I did try being logical, but in the end I also pulled cheap insults. Aside from lazy, who does so in this odd way that's ALMOST a compliment, no one here should be doing that. Honestly, whether or not I was trying to prove some idiotic point to OB1 or not with that, it was wrong of me to do that. I apologize for the insults. Anyway, I'm not sure what I can do aside from just dropping it. It would seem OB1 has accepted that sometimes one just needs to walk away and that it's NOT a sign of weak character to do so. Thus, I will return to that myself. Indeed, for the first few years, I didn't get into arguments. I'd give an opinion and then leave it at that.
To be honest, I really don't have any idea what changed in me to get me to be so argumentative. Somewhere along the line, I went from being close to LL in terms of easy goingness to this. I'll be attempting to sorta go back in time, because that old personality had all the tools I could want.
Anyway, that's about it. I'll just sorta say my thoughts and leave it at that in things. These debates really are very stupid, and being right or wrong no longer matters to me. It's obvious to me now, the thing I've learned the most here, that it's not neccesary to actually GET the other person to change their mind so long as you voice your thoughts. It's something I knew before this, but forgot. For a couple weeks, I'll have OB1's posts blocked, just as my own personal test of myself to see if I'm still so argumentitive. Also, if OB1 does the same thing for me, and apparently ABF, lazy, and Darunia as well since they also really grate on him, we could both find out some stuff.
Meanwhile, I'll just say I REALLY don't want to end ANY friendships started here. It's greatly apparent that even though it's a message board, it's just as real when people are communicating (even if it's not as efficient as actually talking in person). At the same time, this is supposed to be a very friendly place. It always was. Even now, for the most part it still is. Let's not just HOPE that it gets better though. I'm certainly changing.
I did try being logical, but in the end I also pulled cheap insults. Aside from lazy, who does so in this odd way that's ALMOST a compliment, no one here should be doing that. Honestly, whether or not I was trying to prove some idiotic point to OB1 or not with that, it was wrong of me to do that. I apologize for the insults. Anyway, I'm not sure what I can do aside from just dropping it. It would seem OB1 has accepted that sometimes one just needs to walk away and that it's NOT a sign of weak character to do so. Thus, I will return to that myself. Indeed, for the first few years, I didn't get into arguments. I'd give an opinion and then leave it at that.
To be honest, I really don't have any idea what changed in me to get me to be so argumentative. Somewhere along the line, I went from being close to LL in terms of easy goingness to this. I'll be attempting to sorta go back in time, because that old personality had all the tools I could want.
Anyway, that's about it. I'll just sorta say my thoughts and leave it at that in things. These debates really are very stupid, and being right or wrong no longer matters to me. It's obvious to me now, the thing I've learned the most here, that it's not neccesary to actually GET the other person to change their mind so long as you voice your thoughts. It's something I knew before this, but forgot. For a couple weeks, I'll have OB1's posts blocked, just as my own personal test of myself to see if I'm still so argumentitive. Also, if OB1 does the same thing for me, and apparently ABF, lazy, and Darunia as well since they also really grate on him, we could both find out some stuff.
Meanwhile, I'll just say I REALLY don't want to end ANY friendships started here. It's greatly apparent that even though it's a message board, it's just as real when people are communicating (even if it's not as efficient as actually talking in person). At the same time, this is supposed to be a very friendly place. It always was. Even now, for the most part it still is. Let's not just HOPE that it gets better though. I'm certainly changing.
1st May 2004, 6:08 AM
The End.
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Or IS it?!?!?!
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Or IS it?!?!?!
1st May 2004, 8:36 AM
That's really cool DJ and I understand why you became so argumenative.
The entire reason I posted in this thread was to share the idea of wanting to see Kazooie in Banjo Pilot and being disappointed that she wasn't. When OB1 started arguing against my opinion I decided to let him have it so to speak, ever since I came back from the hectic schedule of school, every thread had two or three pages of OB1 arguing with someone, usually ABF, over something dumb and just ended up being name calling and flaming by the last page. And I cant stand it, instead of the threads building in to real debates with valid points, or becoming a joke-filled krap thread, it was abondoned to let OB1 argue.
When Ice-9 killed the board years ago, I begged every single member of TC to do something, find some way of creating a new message board because I had no idea how it was done; the person who was my greatest Playstation loving enemy told me he knew how to make a message board and agreed that it would be the right thing to do, but I never imagined that TC would become a place where we (or atleast I) have to deal with something a thousand times worse than N_A's arguments over and over and over and over to the point where you just dont care anymore and you leave the thread hoping there's a good conversation elsewhere on the board. OB1's arguments are like a disease infecting the threads one at a time and I see how it effects every member of the board, everyone is becoming more argumenative because in reality, we just want to yell "shut up! no one wants to fuel your argument meter! leave me alone and let me have a real BBS conversation!" yunno?
But anyway, i'm hoping it will die down now and people will start posting more often.
The entire reason I posted in this thread was to share the idea of wanting to see Kazooie in Banjo Pilot and being disappointed that she wasn't. When OB1 started arguing against my opinion I decided to let him have it so to speak, ever since I came back from the hectic schedule of school, every thread had two or three pages of OB1 arguing with someone, usually ABF, over something dumb and just ended up being name calling and flaming by the last page. And I cant stand it, instead of the threads building in to real debates with valid points, or becoming a joke-filled krap thread, it was abondoned to let OB1 argue.
When Ice-9 killed the board years ago, I begged every single member of TC to do something, find some way of creating a new message board because I had no idea how it was done; the person who was my greatest Playstation loving enemy told me he knew how to make a message board and agreed that it would be the right thing to do, but I never imagined that TC would become a place where we (or atleast I) have to deal with something a thousand times worse than N_A's arguments over and over and over and over to the point where you just dont care anymore and you leave the thread hoping there's a good conversation elsewhere on the board. OB1's arguments are like a disease infecting the threads one at a time and I see how it effects every member of the board, everyone is becoming more argumenative because in reality, we just want to yell "shut up! no one wants to fuel your argument meter! leave me alone and let me have a real BBS conversation!" yunno?
But anyway, i'm hoping it will die down now and people will start posting more often.
1st May 2004, 11:44 AM
... ack, so much since I was last here... *reads* Huh, this post of DJ's is really the only one worth replying to... and given no one ELSE did, I should! :)
Hmm... you make an interesting point here, actually. How is it different between Mario getting some ability that he didn't have before and a Koopa's shell getting some ability IT didn't have before?
First, in a racing game the shells generally come from powerups. So you can assume that they are not just normal items but are specially made for the racing circuit, so having them have different properties is not just okay, it's expected. This would also explain homing shells of course.
As for the 'skateboard', I don't know what you mean. I don't remember a Mario game where Koopa shells have multiple properties without any explanation (like 'specially made racing weapons')... could you give an example of that? I don't remember places where Koopa shells suddenly acted completely differently from all other Koopa shells with no explanations (like it being some special Koopa, which WOULD provide an explanation -- specially modified shell! :))... Oh, I'm sure that games have done such things many times before, as I said, but I also said that it's better and much more consistent when they don't...
As for a Koopa shell being a skateboard... well, it's POSSIBLE I guess to ride on one, they do roll along the ground and at a good speed too, I don't see how that totally breaks the rules of Koopa shells to be honest. Invincible? Who knows. But being a skateboard, with no more information than that, I don't see how it's so against the rules of Koopa shells.
Isn't this what we've both been saying from the beginning? It ties right in to the thing DJ said above, though... but I want more proof of that. :)
Also, you completely failed to address ABF's VERY good point on the bubble shield. Aside from Kirby, not a single other character has this ability or anything even remotely close. It's not an item at all, it's a POWER generated via their BODIES. Yoshi uses an egg instead, everyone else uses an orb of power. You seem totally okay with this. Since when does Yoshi for example hide INSIDE an egg to protect him from attacks? I'll go ahead and oblige you on your silly double standard between items and characters and remind you that Yoshi MAKES those eggs himself.[/quote]
He said 'it's obviously an item they were given', DJ. Did you miss that? Oh, it's a somewhat weak explanation, but he DID say something. :) And it COULD be an item... how can you prove it was generated by their bodies?
As for Yoshi, he's stupid and I don't care. :D But you're right, that's another one, like Kirby, that breaks the rules...
I still think that your point "she is not known for being slow" is, well, pointless. In a game like Banjo-Kazooie, you get upgrades. They increase your abilities. Even if she WAS known for being slow, is it so hard to believe that you could give her an upgrade that *gasp* increases her speed? I'd say not!
Oh, and Captain Falcon NEVER WALKED. He was in a CAR. So they had a blank slate in SSB to work on! Why is that so hard to understand? It's Kirby or Yoshi who they broke some rules to fit into the game, not Captain Falcon.
Obviously I completely agree.
Oh, I know. I provided a few examples of games where they nonsensically do things that are not explained and don't really make sense from a story standpoint (but often do from a 'fun' standpoint -- or at least a 'this makes sense' standpoint. For what I mean by THAT, let's take Quest for Glory. As you progress through the five games in the series, you can save your character and upload it into the next one with a cooresponding increase in your stats. But the games don't really explain why the enemies are on a plane... that is, how it is that you conveniently happen to go next to an area with enemies the next step up on the difficulty ladder... most games "solve" this issue by doing like Zelda and wiping you clean after each game.). But then I said 'But it's better when they don't.'. The issue isn't if they CAN do something that makes no sense in the case of the universe, of course they could! As you say in the next paragraph they COULD make Mario as fast as Sonic if the programmers wanted. (oh, before I continue, FF doesn't count because every game is in a different world. No continuity issues there, excepting X-2.) It'd just be stupid by the rules of Mario. This is the whole point here about Kazooie... by the rules of B-K, Kazooie can't be a plane and does not fly like one! And in a racing game Kazooie would have to.
Okay, so you solved it by saying the tail propeller idea. And as OB1 said that's a decent one, provided that it's shown as a powerup or ability or something and doesn't just come out of nowhere. But my point wasn't ever just about this example, it was about the whole case of this subject (breaking the rules of your universe) in general, so that doesn't change much in relation to what I said.
Quote:OB1, first you say that items mean nothing, then you go on to say that Samus' armor is a DIFFERENT KIND of item and that it can't be removed suddenly. They DID do that, and gave her a stun gun and good jumping abilities without the suit. Yeesh, why are SOME items completely okay to change but OTHERS not? Whether it's a part of their body or not is completely irrelevent. Once something's behavior has been established, as you put it, it can't be suddenly changed with no explanation. Your double standard is painfully obvious. While it's FINE for something like a koopa shell to suddenly out of NOWHERE be a skateboard that turns mario invincible, you say it's completely different for Mario himself to suddenly, from nowhere, be able to dig underground like a mole. These are BOTH the SAME THINGS. Sure, you can say "well those are different shells", but it would be wrong to use such a defense as that just to keep your double standard intact. Fact is, the shell's behavior has been established for some time and they changed it completely out of the blue in an unexpected way. I LOVED that they did that. The fact that they are "different shells" as one could put it is totally irrelevent. It's that we EXPECTED them to act one way based on previous experience and they acted a totally unexpected way that is important. It's what WE, the PLAYERS are thinking that matters.
Hmm... you make an interesting point here, actually. How is it different between Mario getting some ability that he didn't have before and a Koopa's shell getting some ability IT didn't have before?
First, in a racing game the shells generally come from powerups. So you can assume that they are not just normal items but are specially made for the racing circuit, so having them have different properties is not just okay, it's expected. This would also explain homing shells of course.
As for the 'skateboard', I don't know what you mean. I don't remember a Mario game where Koopa shells have multiple properties without any explanation (like 'specially made racing weapons')... could you give an example of that? I don't remember places where Koopa shells suddenly acted completely differently from all other Koopa shells with no explanations (like it being some special Koopa, which WOULD provide an explanation -- specially modified shell! :))... Oh, I'm sure that games have done such things many times before, as I said, but I also said that it's better and much more consistent when they don't...
As for a Koopa shell being a skateboard... well, it's POSSIBLE I guess to ride on one, they do roll along the ground and at a good speed too, I don't see how that totally breaks the rules of Koopa shells to be honest. Invincible? Who knows. But being a skateboard, with no more information than that, I don't see how it's so against the rules of Koopa shells.
Quote:The Banjo-Kazooie set-up seen in the Banjo games would not work in a racing game because Kazooie is too slow and the flight model (if you can call it that) would be very bad for a racing game. HOWEVER, if you were to change the B-K set-up in a way that would make sense in the world of Banjo-Kazooie like how lazy just suggested, it COULD work! You could have a little cinematic in Banjo Pilot showing Kazooie with flight goggles, and Banjo asking her what the deal was. Then she'd explain that she just graduated from bird flight school and can fly just as fast as any man-made plane now that she has learned a new way of flying. You'd see her all ready to go, Banjo jump on her back, end cinema. Maybe not quite like that, but you get the idea.
Isn't this what we've both been saying from the beginning? It ties right in to the thing DJ said above, though... but I want more proof of that. :)
Also, you completely failed to address ABF's VERY good point on the bubble shield. Aside from Kirby, not a single other character has this ability or anything even remotely close. It's not an item at all, it's a POWER generated via their BODIES. Yoshi uses an egg instead, everyone else uses an orb of power. You seem totally okay with this. Since when does Yoshi for example hide INSIDE an egg to protect him from attacks? I'll go ahead and oblige you on your silly double standard between items and characters and remind you that Yoshi MAKES those eggs himself.[/quote]
He said 'it's obviously an item they were given', DJ. Did you miss that? Oh, it's a somewhat weak explanation, but he DID say something. :) And it COULD be an item... how can you prove it was generated by their bodies?
As for Yoshi, he's stupid and I don't care. :D But you're right, that's another one, like Kirby, that breaks the rules...
Quote:You may at this point say the same silly thing you said about Captain Falcon "Well, you never saw him outside the car before" would transform into "you don't know his eggs couldn't do that before!". Mind you, your very argument here defeats you. If you can argue that there was no evidence Captain Falcon or Yoshi COULDN'T do those things, then I can just as easily point out there's no evidence at all that Kazooie CAN'T fly like a Diddy Kong Racing plane. As I've said again and again, Kazooie is known for being able to fly, she's known for spitting eggs, and known for being on the back of a bear. However, she is NOT known for being slow. You may have noticed this as an aside in those two games, but it's CERTAINLY not a trademark quality of the bird.
I still think that your point "she is not known for being slow" is, well, pointless. In a game like Banjo-Kazooie, you get upgrades. They increase your abilities. Even if she WAS known for being slow, is it so hard to believe that you could give her an upgrade that *gasp* increases her speed? I'd say not!
Oh, and Captain Falcon NEVER WALKED. He was in a CAR. So they had a blank slate in SSB to work on! Why is that so hard to understand? It's Kirby or Yoshi who they broke some rules to fit into the game, not Captain Falcon.
Quote:And yes, you say "this is the stupidest thing ever" and "You have really disappointed me" every SINGLE time someone, anyone, disagrees with you. It's not just rude, it's a blatent bit of self deception. You know as well as anyone that the probability of each argument ACTUALLY being worse than the last, each and every time, is just too low to be true. Also, if I have "completely dissappointed you" or "you have lost all respect for me" the last time, then how can it happen AGAIN? Did I do something amazing that GAINED your respect between arguments or something? In effect, where I previously thought you had 0 respect from me the entire time, I suddenly found out you had some respect for me for a while before this, and so I'm actually FLATTERED (kidding, I honestly don't care what you think about me at this point). Honestly, you need to learn some manners and common decency. You know why we never get mad at lazy, even with those VERY off color remarks? It's because he manages to convey VERY well an aura of respect for our opinions and we respect him back for it. You haven't managed to do that for ANYONE in a LONG time.
Your comments that "not a single person here has any debate skills except me" proves your egotism and outright rudeness. Now, look I"m not trying to insult you, well maybe a little, but the fact is you never once consider even the possibility that it's not that everyone here is a moron, but perhaps that you are in fact very bad at recognizing valid points when they go against what you think. Try and at least consider that you might be wrong. It is NOT a sign of weakness to admit defeat! It's NOT!
Obviously I completely agree.
Quote:And just to finish up, games always do completely unexpected things to their characters all the time, and character or item, it's irrelevent. The important bit is what we EXPECT them to do and how their behaviors and abilities match up. It's a good thing. There's an entire series that shares ONLY the name in common with the others, and the only connection IS the side items and some creatures. I call it "Final Fantasy". The entire theme, world, story, characters, and ability systems (and sometimes the battle system itself) is different in each game. In fact, FFX-2, where it was actually using the same world and some characters, was actually a huge CHANGE from the norm. It worked out though. I wouldn't want to be limited in what I can do as a designer just because someone doesn't think a character or item or world or whatever (it's all the same, your argument has been done to death on many things, and when it's disregarded magic happens, but when the developers try too much to please the existing fans, stagnation happens, see Street Fighter) can do something.
Oh, I know. I provided a few examples of games where they nonsensically do things that are not explained and don't really make sense from a story standpoint (but often do from a 'fun' standpoint -- or at least a 'this makes sense' standpoint. For what I mean by THAT, let's take Quest for Glory. As you progress through the five games in the series, you can save your character and upload it into the next one with a cooresponding increase in your stats. But the games don't really explain why the enemies are on a plane... that is, how it is that you conveniently happen to go next to an area with enemies the next step up on the difficulty ladder... most games "solve" this issue by doing like Zelda and wiping you clean after each game.). But then I said 'But it's better when they don't.'. The issue isn't if they CAN do something that makes no sense in the case of the universe, of course they could! As you say in the next paragraph they COULD make Mario as fast as Sonic if the programmers wanted. (oh, before I continue, FF doesn't count because every game is in a different world. No continuity issues there, excepting X-2.) It'd just be stupid by the rules of Mario. This is the whole point here about Kazooie... by the rules of B-K, Kazooie can't be a plane and does not fly like one! And in a racing game Kazooie would have to.
Okay, so you solved it by saying the tail propeller idea. And as OB1 said that's a decent one, provided that it's shown as a powerup or ability or something and doesn't just come out of nowhere. But my point wasn't ever just about this example, it was about the whole case of this subject (breaking the rules of your universe) in general, so that doesn't change much in relation to what I said.
1st May 2004, 12:48 PM
Alright, I think we've probably exhausted the possibilities of this thread and, besides, who really wants to buy Banjo Pilot anyway? With the powers invested in me by Weltall, I hereby close this thread forever in the hopes that I will somehow redeem myself for ever thinking that making it would be a good idea.
And don't ever THINK about using your admin powers to post in here again!!
And don't ever THINK about using your admin powers to post in here again!!
1st May 2004, 12:50 PM
Don't do that again. Seriously. Do not. I want a reply to that post!
1st May 2004, 12:55 PM
I made this thread and I can close it whenever I please!!
Here's the deal if you can discuss this without provoking anyone I'll let it continue, but if things get out of hand again I may just delete the whole thing and be done with it. So keep that in mind.
Here's the deal if you can discuss this without provoking anyone I'll let it continue, but if things get out of hand again I may just delete the whole thing and be done with it. So keep that in mind.
1st May 2004, 12:57 PM
Oh come on, it's always like this, this arguement is no worse than any others... if you don't like it just go away. :)
1st May 2004, 1:04 PM
It isn't NOW, but that's only because the other side left.
Well, if you don't like me using my admin powers to close a thread I MADE then maybe YOU should leave! Yeah, beat that!!
Quote:if you don't like it just go away.
Well, if you don't like me using my admin powers to close a thread I MADE then maybe YOU should leave! Yeah, beat that!!
1st May 2004, 1:06 PM
Well, kind of, but I looked at the thread and the biggest issue was resolved with Lazy thinking up the 'tail propeller'... my post is only kind of about that, though. Kind of, but different...
1st May 2004, 1:09 PM
I don't think there's much left to discuss here, but you can keep going if you want.
1st May 2004, 2:49 PM
Well, actually since OB1 won't respond to this thread, I think it's somewhat safe now, and besides I want to have a nice discussion about random stuff with ABF.
Oh ABF, regarding the koopa shell skateboard, I wasn't making that up believe it or not. That's straight out of Mario 64. All the koopa shells in the game you can find, with no explanation, now act like skateboards (slow ones, much slower than they normally skid in the previous Mario games), and grant you invincibility (with the golden sparkles and music and everything). It was pretty cool, but you know, I was just using it as an example there.
Anyway, about the power shields, yeah I know OB1 said they are "obviously an item they got before the match", but I disagree to put it simply. Yeah, I guess it COULD be an item, but considering Japan, and the total lack of anything to support it being an item, I'll wager it was just a completely out of the blue new ability they added. But, ya know, whatever.
Oh yes, that's one thing I didn't even think of, though I have before. Us as gamers ARE willing to just completely ditch all reasoning when it comes to Link loosing all his powers aren't we? Sure, when a whole NEW Link comes around, him being weak and itemless is expected, but from OOT to MM, or Zelda 1 to Adventure of Link? There's no explanation and it certainly doesn't fit the characters does it? In fact, only twice has anything been done about this very common thing. Once, in Megaman Legends 2, where it was addressed in a humorous fasion.
Megaman: Roll, where's all my old weapons?!
Roll: Oh, sorry Megaman, but I sold it all to pay for the new engine.
Megaman: WHAT?!
Second, in Banjo~Tooie, though it's not so much "addressing" it as avoiding it alltogether by just letting them KEEP all their old abilities.
In ALL the games where this sort of thing happens though, it's due to gameplay over story. Anyway, now I just assume that ALL the characters between ALL games sell their stuff :D.
Oh ABF, regarding the koopa shell skateboard, I wasn't making that up believe it or not. That's straight out of Mario 64. All the koopa shells in the game you can find, with no explanation, now act like skateboards (slow ones, much slower than they normally skid in the previous Mario games), and grant you invincibility (with the golden sparkles and music and everything). It was pretty cool, but you know, I was just using it as an example there.
Anyway, about the power shields, yeah I know OB1 said they are "obviously an item they got before the match", but I disagree to put it simply. Yeah, I guess it COULD be an item, but considering Japan, and the total lack of anything to support it being an item, I'll wager it was just a completely out of the blue new ability they added. But, ya know, whatever.
Oh yes, that's one thing I didn't even think of, though I have before. Us as gamers ARE willing to just completely ditch all reasoning when it comes to Link loosing all his powers aren't we? Sure, when a whole NEW Link comes around, him being weak and itemless is expected, but from OOT to MM, or Zelda 1 to Adventure of Link? There's no explanation and it certainly doesn't fit the characters does it? In fact, only twice has anything been done about this very common thing. Once, in Megaman Legends 2, where it was addressed in a humorous fasion.
Megaman: Roll, where's all my old weapons?!
Roll: Oh, sorry Megaman, but I sold it all to pay for the new engine.
Megaman: WHAT?!
Second, in Banjo~Tooie, though it's not so much "addressing" it as avoiding it alltogether by just letting them KEEP all their old abilities.
In ALL the games where this sort of thing happens though, it's due to gameplay over story. Anyway, now I just assume that ALL the characters between ALL games sell their stuff :D.
1st May 2004, 4:51 PM
Somewhere there's a universe that has a pawn shop with Mega Man's dog and Mario's Hammer Bros. suit.
In B~T when you start a new game with all the B~K abilities it feels more like a sequel and not a 'conversion' of the first one, Banjo is slighty more responsive but not by much. In Mario Sunshine almost all your original abilities are gone except for tummy sliding and the Triple Jump. But Mario's entire responsiveness and control has become tighter, this is obviousely because Mario ate that entire cake and then bought some Sweatin' to the Oldies videos, a few laters later, BAM! More responsive Mario.
In B~T when you start a new game with all the B~K abilities it feels more like a sequel and not a 'conversion' of the first one, Banjo is slighty more responsive but not by much. In Mario Sunshine almost all your original abilities are gone except for tummy sliding and the Triple Jump. But Mario's entire responsiveness and control has become tighter, this is obviousely because Mario ate that entire cake and then bought some Sweatin' to the Oldies videos, a few laters later, BAM! More responsive Mario.
1st May 2004, 4:57 PM
Oh but Mega Man never sold his dog! Rush is still around! Legends and X, and Zero, and EXE, use totally different Megamen though.
Rush: Actually, truth be told, I'm not the ORIGINAL Rush. Do NOT leave me alone with Dr. Light!
DJ: What the hell?! You can TALK!
Rush: .... never mind...
Rush: Actually, truth be told, I'm not the ORIGINAL Rush. Do NOT leave me alone with Dr. Light!
DJ: What the hell?! You can TALK!
Rush: .... never mind...
1st May 2004, 10:40 PM
*starts randomly pulling vegebles out of the ground and chucking them at passers by*
2nd May 2004, 10:20 AM
Rush: *is chased by a helicopter*
12 people at outpost 32 in the antartic: *saves dog and kills helicopter*
Snake Pliskin: Hey.... someone put that dog....... with the rest of the dogs....
Dogs in the kennel: hey wtf that's not a normal dog he's holy shit
Ruch: *becomes an organic mass and tries to copy the other dogs*
Childs: what the hell is that! shoot it! My voice is used in voice overs constantly!
Scientist: Um! Save it! for.... research! *is killed* n/m! *becomes The Thong*
The Thong: *hybrid of Rush and Scientist* Uh... destroy liberals! *wags tail*
Liberals: *is Johnny Cash* Bill Clinton was the best president this country has ever had! *performs felatio on The Thong*
The Thong: In the first movie... you couldn't see me. But in the book, I was described as a shape shifting creature, now in the 80's i'm finally brought to life as the creature from the book, but you know what? tell CGI it can eat dick! Puppeteering all the way baby! I give something the actors can react to! and GUUAGGHAGHGAHYAHHAGG
Gollum: Same idea, different way of doing it yadda yadda yadda. I mean fish fish fish. Shit, out of character again... no you weren't, I was... not, yes, I was. Nooooo..... shut up, you shut up! I told you to shut up first no you didn't I said it first dont be such an ass why dont YOU stop being such a pussy and go kill Frodo he's my friend I cant you should.... then we could go home with our precious and not worry the last movie we can end our tale on the second movie oh you'd like that yes I would well it sucks it does not I hate you go away not happening *is eaten by The Thong*
The Thong: *becomes Mapel Girl* ALL RIGHT BITCHES NOW LET'S ALL SEE HOW IT FEELS TO BE USED LIKE A DAMN SCRATCHING POST FOR MY ITCHY BITCHY THONG HOMOS!!!!!!!!1
John Carpenter: ...I'd yell cut but this would make an awesome sequel. *remembers that he directed Ghosts of Mars and kills self* ....so much for that idea. :crap:
12 people at outpost 32 in the antartic: *saves dog and kills helicopter*
Snake Pliskin: Hey.... someone put that dog....... with the rest of the dogs....
Dogs in the kennel: hey wtf that's not a normal dog he's holy shit
Ruch: *becomes an organic mass and tries to copy the other dogs*
Childs: what the hell is that! shoot it! My voice is used in voice overs constantly!
Scientist: Um! Save it! for.... research! *is killed* n/m! *becomes The Thong*
The Thong: *hybrid of Rush and Scientist* Uh... destroy liberals! *wags tail*
Liberals: *is Johnny Cash* Bill Clinton was the best president this country has ever had! *performs felatio on The Thong*
The Thong: In the first movie... you couldn't see me. But in the book, I was described as a shape shifting creature, now in the 80's i'm finally brought to life as the creature from the book, but you know what? tell CGI it can eat dick! Puppeteering all the way baby! I give something the actors can react to! and GUUAGGHAGHGAHYAHHAGG
Gollum: Same idea, different way of doing it yadda yadda yadda. I mean fish fish fish. Shit, out of character again... no you weren't, I was... not, yes, I was. Nooooo..... shut up, you shut up! I told you to shut up first no you didn't I said it first dont be such an ass why dont YOU stop being such a pussy and go kill Frodo he's my friend I cant you should.... then we could go home with our precious and not worry the last movie we can end our tale on the second movie oh you'd like that yes I would well it sucks it does not I hate you go away not happening *is eaten by The Thong*
The Thong: *becomes Mapel Girl* ALL RIGHT BITCHES NOW LET'S ALL SEE HOW IT FEELS TO BE USED LIKE A DAMN SCRATCHING POST FOR MY ITCHY BITCHY THONG HOMOS!!!!!!!!1
John Carpenter: ...I'd yell cut but this would make an awesome sequel. *remembers that he directed Ghosts of Mars and kills self* ....so much for that idea. :crap:
2nd May 2004, 12:22 PM
Quote:Oh ABF, regarding the koopa shell skateboard, I wasn't making that up believe it or not. That's straight out of Mario 64. All the koopa shells in the game you can find, with no explanation, now act like skateboards (slow ones, much slower than they normally skid in the previous Mario games), and grant you invincibility (with the golden sparkles and music and everything). It was pretty cool, but you know, I was just using it as an example there.
How strange. The invincibility is the oddest part... as I said, since a Koopa shell doesn't stop moving, ever, once started (hey, just get one and kick it and you've got an instant perpetual motion machine!), it's not impossible... you just need to figure out how to stay on. :) But the invincibility is inexplicable.
Quote:Anyway, about the power shields, yeah I know OB1 said they are "obviously an item they got before the match", but I disagree to put it simply. Yeah, I guess it COULD be an item, but considering Japan, and the total lack of anything to support it being an item, I'll wager it was just a completely out of the blue new ability they added. But, ya know, whatever.
For the first SSB I kind of thought they were toys or something, based on that toybox and the characters that look like stuffed animals animated by the Master Hand... but it doesn't exactly have a story, so make up whatever you want pretty much. :)
Quote:Oh yes, that's one thing I didn't even think of, though I have before. Us as gamers ARE willing to just completely ditch all reasoning when it comes to Link loosing all his powers aren't we? Sure, when a whole NEW Link comes around, him being weak and itemless is expected, but from OOT to MM, or Zelda 1 to Adventure of Link? There's no explanation and it certainly doesn't fit the characters does it? In fact, only twice has anything been done about this very common thing. Once, in Megaman Legends 2, where it was addressed in a humorous fasion.
For Mega Man my best guess is that they're optimistic and disarm him after each battle, hoping there won't be another... but still, that doesn't explain why you have to start your health meter over each time (collecting the various kinds of health-increasing items the series gives you)... especially in X. There really isn't an explanation. Well, excepting X5... if you recall, in the beginning of X5 you can choose between Megaman, Zero, and (if you choose Megaman as your character) one of the armor suits from X4. But it's been weakened somewhat so even THERE it isn't quite the same... and of course you have to start over with your health meter and the weapons.
As I said, it's an extremely common thing. I'd say the fact that B-T DID deal with this is, as I said, a good part of why I'd want future Banjo titles to do the same... that, and how I always hope for a sensible story. I don't LIKE those inexplicable things! Sure it's done for gameplay, but at least explain why.
Of course, those explanation are often stupid and it'd be hard to come up with a good reason for why, for instance, Link gave up (somehow) all of this health after the end of each game... items I can understand, of course, but you have to start with 3 hearts again!
Quote:In B~T when you start a new game with all the B~K abilities it feels more like a sequel and not a 'conversion' of the first one, Banjo is slighty more responsive but not by much. In Mario Sunshine almost all your original abilities are gone except for tummy sliding and the Triple Jump. But Mario's entire responsiveness and control has become tighter, this is obviousely because Mario ate that entire cake and then bought some Sweatin' to the Oldies videos, a few laters later, BAM! More responsive Mario.
Because of how heavy the waterpack is, Mario can wall-jump over fences but can't longjump. No, it doesn't make any sense, does it...
Oh, and I'd love to see the Handstand from DK (GB) to come back! If you remember, he would flip over, walk (slowly) on his hands, and anything that landed on his feet (see: DK's barrels) would get deflected, instead of crushing him... :)
2nd May 2004, 9:30 PM
Oh those shells stop if you jump on them, just make sure you don't bounce right back onto it and start it back up again.
Oh yes, here's another difference in behavior now that you made me think of it. In the games before it, all of them, those koopa shells would bounce forever, smashing through blocks even, thus allowing you to toss them into huge block mazes and smashing the place up, which as a kid is VERY fun and makes you feel powerful :D. In Super Mario 64, you get that same sense of power from the riding around while your character strangely glows with sparkles of invincibility and you ride around on lava, BUT the second you bump into something, the shell is destroyed instantly and it's all over. Your goal is to make sure NOT to bump into anything, something the ol' shell is known for before, because NOW it'll just vaporize and your killing spree will be over. Also, it allows you to go over lava without getting hurt, which is nice.
Ya know, I just thought of something I thought of LONG ago playing Super Mario World, but I still think it would be awesome. If they pull out a new Mario game adding back in a ton of amazing suits of power, they should produce the all-new Blaarg suit! If you recall, the Blarg was a lava creature, in fact the biggest thing Yoshi was capable of eating (and likely the spiciest) that looked like a sort of lava dragon. As you might imagine, my idea of the blarg suit would be a suit that makes you look like one, with Mario's head right about where the mouth would be, and it would let you swim around in lava just as effortlessly as the frog suit lets you swim in water, only more like a dragon, and Mario would be sorta sweatin' because the suit is still uncomfortably hot :D, and it would be COOL because it would let you get to secret passages or items you couldn't reach before, but you can't see TOO far into the lava because, well, it's LAVA, or maybe you could, whatever ended up being most fun.
Oh yes, here's another difference in behavior now that you made me think of it. In the games before it, all of them, those koopa shells would bounce forever, smashing through blocks even, thus allowing you to toss them into huge block mazes and smashing the place up, which as a kid is VERY fun and makes you feel powerful :D. In Super Mario 64, you get that same sense of power from the riding around while your character strangely glows with sparkles of invincibility and you ride around on lava, BUT the second you bump into something, the shell is destroyed instantly and it's all over. Your goal is to make sure NOT to bump into anything, something the ol' shell is known for before, because NOW it'll just vaporize and your killing spree will be over. Also, it allows you to go over lava without getting hurt, which is nice.
Ya know, I just thought of something I thought of LONG ago playing Super Mario World, but I still think it would be awesome. If they pull out a new Mario game adding back in a ton of amazing suits of power, they should produce the all-new Blaarg suit! If you recall, the Blarg was a lava creature, in fact the biggest thing Yoshi was capable of eating (and likely the spiciest) that looked like a sort of lava dragon. As you might imagine, my idea of the blarg suit would be a suit that makes you look like one, with Mario's head right about where the mouth would be, and it would let you swim around in lava just as effortlessly as the frog suit lets you swim in water, only more like a dragon, and Mario would be sorta sweatin' because the suit is still uncomfortably hot :D, and it would be COOL because it would let you get to secret passages or items you couldn't reach before, but you can't see TOO far into the lava because, well, it's LAVA, or maybe you could, whatever ended up being most fun.
2nd May 2004, 10:37 PM
I think the best example is the preview of Donkey Kong Racing showing characters sitting on those Buzzers, when clearly, in the all three preceding Donkey Kong Country games, if any character did so much as touch a Buzzer, said character would die/run away and get trapped inside a barrel. Yet, it's changed with no explanation.
OMG TEH CENTERPOINT OF TEH UNIVERSE HAS BEEN DESTROYED WERE ALL SCREWWWEEDD!!! boom?
I also want to point out that it's obviously easier for game designers to take characters from previous series of games and throw them into a new game of a whole different genre. It saves them the trouble of coming up with completely new characters for a game, I might add, where characters are basically trivial and it won't be marked for it's storyline, but more likely by simple, addicting gameplay. The players won't mind, either, given that the characters are likeable... in fact, it'll add to the charm of the game! Hell, in Super Smash Bros. case, it's the whole point: a light hearted video game for nerds who finally get to settle their debates of whether Pikachu could t0tally 0wn Captain Falcon.
Then, people around the world log onto Nintendo message boards and get into spiteful arguments over whether it's okay to bend/break the rules of their favorite characters for a completely new game of a different genre that, without any need for a storyline, also shouldn't have to explain the characters acting a little differently. When trying to put the pieces of the Zelda storyline together, do you stop and say, "wait wait wait, what about all those years Link spent smacking Mario in the face with his blade between sneaking leers at Peach?"
Whoops. Didn't mean to rant... I never got involved because this is just such a silly subject. Look at Ren & Stimpy: the only recurring elements in that show were the personalities of the two, and of course, a bunch of other shady side characters. Ren and Stimpy could be living on the streets in one episode, then in a random one-story house, sleeping in the same bed in another, or even randomly sneaking around in a jungle, with NO explanation, whatsoever - and it was excellent! One of the greatest cartoons I've ever seen.
OMG TEH CENTERPOINT OF TEH UNIVERSE HAS BEEN DESTROYED WERE ALL SCREWWWEEDD!!! boom?
I also want to point out that it's obviously easier for game designers to take characters from previous series of games and throw them into a new game of a whole different genre. It saves them the trouble of coming up with completely new characters for a game, I might add, where characters are basically trivial and it won't be marked for it's storyline, but more likely by simple, addicting gameplay. The players won't mind, either, given that the characters are likeable... in fact, it'll add to the charm of the game! Hell, in Super Smash Bros. case, it's the whole point: a light hearted video game for nerds who finally get to settle their debates of whether Pikachu could t0tally 0wn Captain Falcon.
Then, people around the world log onto Nintendo message boards and get into spiteful arguments over whether it's okay to bend/break the rules of their favorite characters for a completely new game of a different genre that, without any need for a storyline, also shouldn't have to explain the characters acting a little differently. When trying to put the pieces of the Zelda storyline together, do you stop and say, "wait wait wait, what about all those years Link spent smacking Mario in the face with his blade between sneaking leers at Peach?"
Whoops. Didn't mean to rant... I never got involved because this is just such a silly subject. Look at Ren & Stimpy: the only recurring elements in that show were the personalities of the two, and of course, a bunch of other shady side characters. Ren and Stimpy could be living on the streets in one episode, then in a random one-story house, sleeping in the same bed in another, or even randomly sneaking around in a jungle, with NO explanation, whatsoever - and it was excellent! One of the greatest cartoons I've ever seen.
3rd May 2004, 8:40 AM
Bean, it's not just because it's easier to throw existing characters in to something. It's actually easier to make up new characters that can be as shallow/deep as you need them to be for the single game. It all comes down to marketability of the game. When Sony wanted something to combat Mario Kart 64 they created Crash Racing where you could play as different Crash Bandicoot characters, trying to sell a game to people who are already familiar with the bandicoot series.
Unfortunately even the Bandicoot series was called kiddie by the kids who played PSX exclusively for its mature content. Sony realized later that a kart game with mature content, like a Twisted Metal kart would have done alot better but failed to capatilize on it. Instead, Sony completely abondoned the idea of a kart game, leaving it for Nintendo to soak it up in a genre-monopoly. XBox wont ever see a kart game because they think it will fail on their system for the demographics. 'Halo Kart' (with tiny military vehicles) would do really really well on the XBox, but you'll never see it because of Sony's failure to capatilize on a huge genre that equals alot of money and because Halo is a valuable liscense, if the Halo Kart game wasn't made really well, it would alienate the fans and lower their expectations of the Halo liscense, making it less popular which kills the rate of the game's shelf life between sequels.
Alot of companies are extremely jealous that Mario can be in any genre and it will sell extremely well on any system. Mario the Golfer (hand held or console), Mario the Kart racer (3-D, 2-D), Mario the Tennis player (pick a version), Mario the puzzle game Doctor, Mario the figting game, Mario the 3-D platformer, Mario the 2-D side scroller, Mario the 2-D mini games, Mario Paint, Mario the Role Playing Game, Mario ANYTHING you can imagine. You'll never see Sonic Golf, Jak and Dexter Tennis or Tomb Raider RPG, it just wont ever happen, and it's all because those companies live in fear of the cool factor and the marketability of their valued characters; They take no chances.
Banjo~Kazooie is making the leap to a new genre for the first time with Banjo Pilot. DKR was a cast of many Rare characters in a different land with a new arch nemises and a story that has nothing to do with any of the characters. But Banjo Pilot takes place in the world of B~K and uses B~K characters exclusively so if it does well we might see Banjo~Kazooie trying another genre a few years from now.
Unfortunately even the Bandicoot series was called kiddie by the kids who played PSX exclusively for its mature content. Sony realized later that a kart game with mature content, like a Twisted Metal kart would have done alot better but failed to capatilize on it. Instead, Sony completely abondoned the idea of a kart game, leaving it for Nintendo to soak it up in a genre-monopoly. XBox wont ever see a kart game because they think it will fail on their system for the demographics. 'Halo Kart' (with tiny military vehicles) would do really really well on the XBox, but you'll never see it because of Sony's failure to capatilize on a huge genre that equals alot of money and because Halo is a valuable liscense, if the Halo Kart game wasn't made really well, it would alienate the fans and lower their expectations of the Halo liscense, making it less popular which kills the rate of the game's shelf life between sequels.
Alot of companies are extremely jealous that Mario can be in any genre and it will sell extremely well on any system. Mario the Golfer (hand held or console), Mario the Kart racer (3-D, 2-D), Mario the Tennis player (pick a version), Mario the puzzle game Doctor, Mario the figting game, Mario the 3-D platformer, Mario the 2-D side scroller, Mario the 2-D mini games, Mario Paint, Mario the Role Playing Game, Mario ANYTHING you can imagine. You'll never see Sonic Golf, Jak and Dexter Tennis or Tomb Raider RPG, it just wont ever happen, and it's all because those companies live in fear of the cool factor and the marketability of their valued characters; They take no chances.
Banjo~Kazooie is making the leap to a new genre for the first time with Banjo Pilot. DKR was a cast of many Rare characters in a different land with a new arch nemises and a story that has nothing to do with any of the characters. But Banjo Pilot takes place in the world of B~K and uses B~K characters exclusively so if it does well we might see Banjo~Kazooie trying another genre a few years from now.
3rd May 2004, 10:08 AM
Mario the painter!
Mario the... inventor! Mario's Machine, simlar to but totally different from "the incredible machine", Mario will be your guide as you solve various way too complicated engineering problems using mushrooms and springboards!
Mario the... inventor! Mario's Machine, simlar to but totally different from "the incredible machine", Mario will be your guide as you solve various way too complicated engineering problems using mushrooms and springboards!
3rd May 2004, 12:18 PM
When I heard Miyamoto say "I thought Mario could use a new weapon, like a gun" I remember thinking: Holy shit, it's finally going to happen; Mario FPS.
But then it turned out to be the water cannon. :D
But who's to say that the next 'official' Mario game (Mario 128?) wont have multiplayer or co-op? Imagine playing multiplayer in a Mario game, the king of the hill, hold the flag stuff would work great but it would be awesome to see something like...
Gold-in-eye
Winter Wonder Land; Up to 4 players (Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Princess). Whoever holds the Pot of Gold longest wins! Remembr that when holding the pot of gold you cannot let go of it or attack, you're much slower and your view is tinted bright green so it's hard to see! If you can hold it for longer than a minute, you might get chased by Wario! Use Sniper Shells to attack from huge distances, Proximity Bullet Bills that explode when someone gets close and the Golden Gum that lets you blow huge bubbles so you can fly while holding the Gold!
Perfect Darkland
Bowser's Castle; Bowser had his castle updated with super technology... unfortunately the engineers made it too small! The ceilings are too low to jump, so you use shells, fireballs, etc to battle in first person in Bowser's newly updated Techno-Castle! Up to 4 people can play with the addition of Mechas which are CPU controlled bots. You can have to 8 of them plus the 4 players with different grades of intelligence. Watch out for Slayer Sally's, they're like Bullet Bills that you can control and they want a big fat kiss! Use Tanooki cloaking to make yourself invisible!
Red Cap Alert
The sewers; Guard your base and protect your team's Hat from being stolen! Each player gets a team with 3 Sims each. Each sim will have a specific job, such as Doctor, Weapons Expert, Goalie and NINtenjas! Points are scored by returning the enemy Hat to your base!
Red Team: Mario's cap
Green Team: Luigi's cap
Blue Team: Waluigi's cap
Yellow Team: Wario's cap
Unreal Princess
Forest; (This mode has the best graphics) Up to 4 players try to save the princesses, but only one is real! Work together or go head to head to see who can solve the traps and rescue the real princess before Bowser gets her!
Mario Prime
Ancient Mushroom Kingdom Ruins; Everyone is wearing a Koopa shell! Turn in to a shell to roll along the ground and use half pipes! You can drop Vegetable bombs while in Morph Shell Mode. Players can only use weapons when they're out of their shell... it's also the only time you can be hurt!
Quarter and a Half-Life
Ghost House; One player is picked randomly as "IT"! Points are given for K.O.'ing IT. But IT can gain points by surviving! Watch out for King Boo and his minions! They'll chase who ever is IT!
GLOOM & DOOM!
Lava World; Baby Bowser is at it again! he's painted evil demons and monsters that have come to life in the Lava world and are getting ready to attack the Mushroom Kingdom! Each player has a FLUUD with a new feature; Fully Automatic Chain Squirt! But becareful, there's no water in Lava World to re-fuel and these monsters look thirsty! Who ever cleans up more demons wins! If all player can wipe up more than 100 demons all together, you get to face the ultimate Demon! Bill Gates in dirty overalls singing country music and using poorly realized Japanese marketing!
hehehe I cant think of any more :D Come on Nintendo, you KNOW you want to do it!
But then it turned out to be the water cannon. :D
But who's to say that the next 'official' Mario game (Mario 128?) wont have multiplayer or co-op? Imagine playing multiplayer in a Mario game, the king of the hill, hold the flag stuff would work great but it would be awesome to see something like...
Gold-in-eye
Winter Wonder Land; Up to 4 players (Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Princess). Whoever holds the Pot of Gold longest wins! Remembr that when holding the pot of gold you cannot let go of it or attack, you're much slower and your view is tinted bright green so it's hard to see! If you can hold it for longer than a minute, you might get chased by Wario! Use Sniper Shells to attack from huge distances, Proximity Bullet Bills that explode when someone gets close and the Golden Gum that lets you blow huge bubbles so you can fly while holding the Gold!
Perfect Darkland
Bowser's Castle; Bowser had his castle updated with super technology... unfortunately the engineers made it too small! The ceilings are too low to jump, so you use shells, fireballs, etc to battle in first person in Bowser's newly updated Techno-Castle! Up to 4 people can play with the addition of Mechas which are CPU controlled bots. You can have to 8 of them plus the 4 players with different grades of intelligence. Watch out for Slayer Sally's, they're like Bullet Bills that you can control and they want a big fat kiss! Use Tanooki cloaking to make yourself invisible!
Red Cap Alert
The sewers; Guard your base and protect your team's Hat from being stolen! Each player gets a team with 3 Sims each. Each sim will have a specific job, such as Doctor, Weapons Expert, Goalie and NINtenjas! Points are scored by returning the enemy Hat to your base!
Red Team: Mario's cap
Green Team: Luigi's cap
Blue Team: Waluigi's cap
Yellow Team: Wario's cap
Unreal Princess
Forest; (This mode has the best graphics) Up to 4 players try to save the princesses, but only one is real! Work together or go head to head to see who can solve the traps and rescue the real princess before Bowser gets her!
Mario Prime
Ancient Mushroom Kingdom Ruins; Everyone is wearing a Koopa shell! Turn in to a shell to roll along the ground and use half pipes! You can drop Vegetable bombs while in Morph Shell Mode. Players can only use weapons when they're out of their shell... it's also the only time you can be hurt!
Quarter and a Half-Life
Ghost House; One player is picked randomly as "IT"! Points are given for K.O.'ing IT. But IT can gain points by surviving! Watch out for King Boo and his minions! They'll chase who ever is IT!
GLOOM & DOOM!
Lava World; Baby Bowser is at it again! he's painted evil demons and monsters that have come to life in the Lava world and are getting ready to attack the Mushroom Kingdom! Each player has a FLUUD with a new feature; Fully Automatic Chain Squirt! But becareful, there's no water in Lava World to re-fuel and these monsters look thirsty! Who ever cleans up more demons wins! If all player can wipe up more than 100 demons all together, you get to face the ultimate Demon! Bill Gates in dirty overalls singing country music and using poorly realized Japanese marketing!
hehehe I cant think of any more :D Come on Nintendo, you KNOW you want to do it!
3rd May 2004, 1:09 PM
Hello Halo!
You are on a giant rotating rainbow ring high above the Star Road and your goal is to race around crossing the start-finish line more than anyone else while killing all who race against you! Remember to aim up and take out people upsidedown above you!
lazy, ever played Yoshi Safari? That's a game where Mario totally DID use a gun! It was a super mega bazooka in fact! That was a fun game actually, where Mario rode on Yoshi and shot at enemies rather than just jumping on them, and in the end you pounded on Bowser with about a million shots of power until he was covered in bandages and ran away!
You are on a giant rotating rainbow ring high above the Star Road and your goal is to race around crossing the start-finish line more than anyone else while killing all who race against you! Remember to aim up and take out people upsidedown above you!
lazy, ever played Yoshi Safari? That's a game where Mario totally DID use a gun! It was a super mega bazooka in fact! That was a fun game actually, where Mario rode on Yoshi and shot at enemies rather than just jumping on them, and in the end you pounded on Bowser with about a million shots of power until he was covered in bandages and ran away!
3rd May 2004, 2:59 PM
Quote:Oh yes, here's another difference in behavior now that you made me think of it. In the games before it, all of them, those koopa shells would bounce forever, smashing through blocks even, thus allowing you to toss them into huge block mazes and smashing the place up, which as a kid is VERY fun and makes you feel powerful . In Super Mario 64, you get that same sense of power from the riding around while your character strangely glows with sparkles of invincibility and you ride around on lava, BUT the second you bump into something, the shell is destroyed instantly and it's all over. Your goal is to make sure NOT to bump into anything, something the ol' shell is known for before, because NOW it'll just vaporize and your killing spree will be over. Also, it allows you to go over lava without getting hurt, which is nice.
So when Mario found his third dimension, turtle shells got changed somehow... :)
I think the old shells were cooler. They are a lot less useful in Mario 64...
Quote:I think the best example is the preview of Donkey Kong Racing showing characters sitting on those Buzzers, when clearly, in the all three preceding Donkey Kong Country games, if any character did so much as touch a Buzzer, said character would die/run away and get trapped inside a barrel. Yet, it's changed with no explanation.
Someone invented either a special saddle or a special suit? :) See, you can always make up SOME stupid reason for these things...
3rd May 2004, 3:07 PM
Quote:I think the old shells were cooler. They are a lot less useful in Mario 64...
Riding around on the shells was awesome! Sure, you might not have been able to use the shells to destroy blocks, but you COULD shoot around the stage and run over guys!
3rd May 2004, 3:10 PM
Okay, so old-style shells wouldn't work as well in 3d because most of the time they wouldn't hit anything. I guess that was the rationale for the skateboard... with YOU on it you could actually hit something... (though homing shells would be very cool...)
3rd May 2004, 3:25 PM
Maybe they'll do more with the shells in the next Mario game.
3rd May 2004, 3:57 PM
THey are useful though, not really for the killing, but for the access to areas you couldn't get to before (remember that they let you skate over lava and super chilled water with ease).
And for that matter, coming up with an explanation in those cases, if you ask me, is WORSE than just having nothing at all. Think up one if you will, but as you said, an explanation would be very stupid if one was come up with, so just don't HAVE one. Stupidity is WORSE than just leaving it an open question.
And for that matter, coming up with an explanation in those cases, if you ask me, is WORSE than just having nothing at all. Think up one if you will, but as you said, an explanation would be very stupid if one was come up with, so just don't HAVE one. Stupidity is WORSE than just leaving it an open question.
3rd May 2004, 4:02 PM
But at least it's something... nothing just leaves a giant hole in the story.
That's why I said it's best to have them come up with the reason, and make it at least semi-plausible...
That's why I said it's best to have them come up with the reason, and make it at least semi-plausible...
3rd May 2004, 4:19 PM
It's something, but sometimes nothing really IS better than something. In something like Mario, it's part of the FUN that there's NO explanation whatsoever for some things. It's part of that magic. To be forced to come up with an explanation, even if you only have to come up with a half arsed one, kills some of that magic.
3rd May 2004, 4:35 PM
That's not true... unless the story you come up with is REALLY bad... :)
3rd May 2004, 8:30 PM
Well I think so. I find a good part of the charm of worlds like Mario and Looney Toons, those sorts, come from a large amount of things being PURPOSEFULLY unexplained.
Look at Star Trek. One flaw of that show is that they feel like they have to explain every little thing to the nth degree. Star Wars, for instance, will do some things and not even try to explain them. It leaves it up to the viewer to figure it out. This is just an example of PART of what I'm trying to say though.
With something like Mario, a "through the looking glass" world where nothing makes sense, it's actually a big PART of the magic, to me at least, that suddenly something can change and have NO explanation at all for it, and not a single character in it seems to take a second to say "wait a sec" and they just accept it. It's part of the magic, and the comedy, that that's the case.
You know, something like:
"How much does that weigh?"
"HAM!"
"Ah, perfect."
And that all took place in a world that uses normal measurements for EVERYTHING else, up to that point anyway, where for a split second saying "ham" was perfectly acceptable, then later... from the guy who said "ham!"
"Hey there, how far away is it?"
"Sponge!"
"...THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE!"
See? That is COMEDY right there, because it makes no frickin' sense!
Look at Star Trek. One flaw of that show is that they feel like they have to explain every little thing to the nth degree. Star Wars, for instance, will do some things and not even try to explain them. It leaves it up to the viewer to figure it out. This is just an example of PART of what I'm trying to say though.
With something like Mario, a "through the looking glass" world where nothing makes sense, it's actually a big PART of the magic, to me at least, that suddenly something can change and have NO explanation at all for it, and not a single character in it seems to take a second to say "wait a sec" and they just accept it. It's part of the magic, and the comedy, that that's the case.
You know, something like:
"How much does that weigh?"
"HAM!"
"Ah, perfect."
And that all took place in a world that uses normal measurements for EVERYTHING else, up to that point anyway, where for a split second saying "ham" was perfectly acceptable, then later... from the guy who said "ham!"
"Hey there, how far away is it?"
"Sponge!"
"...THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE!"
See? That is COMEDY right there, because it makes no frickin' sense!
3rd May 2004, 10:29 PM
We had the guy who created the 'Jason' character from Friday the 13th films at Fullsail a year ago. He did all the prosthetic, make up and 'acting' coaching for the person who was inside all that goop. He would often talk with the director (Sean Cunningham) about moments in the script where it would seem that Jason can move very quickly from place to place when we only see him walking... the guy who created Jason thought up ways for Jason to run but none of them were ever used in the scenes. Finally when he asked the director point blank: "How does he move so fast?" the director replied: "He teleports."
And to this day, on many Friday the 13th DVD extras and in countless interviews it was given away that Jason teleports as fact. John Carpenter (Halloween) made a point that Michael Myers cannot teleport, instead in order for Michael to appear to be at locations far away from eachother in brief periods of time, he simply had Michael Myers cloned; There are almost 600 of them now. It's so logical and yet so stupid, it must be true.
And to this day, on many Friday the 13th DVD extras and in countless interviews it was given away that Jason teleports as fact. John Carpenter (Halloween) made a point that Michael Myers cannot teleport, instead in order for Michael to appear to be at locations far away from eachother in brief periods of time, he simply had Michael Myers cloned; There are almost 600 of them now. It's so logical and yet so stupid, it must be true.
3rd May 2004, 11:56 PM
Haha, exactly right! I totally agree with the point I THINK you are saying there, which is that an explanation is sometimes actually HARMFUL to the whole world or the "magic" of it and it's best sometimes just to have no explanation at all.
4th May 2004, 8:40 AM
Yup. Sometimes by not telling or showing, you're creating a better character.
It doesn't always work, but when it does it's awesome. In the 1960's in "The Thing" you never saw the alien... ever. Since they didn't have a huge budget the director and producer both agreed that an alien is probably beyond most of our human comprehension, so it isn't seen and works really well. In Man On Fire (Directed by Tony Scott, brother to Ridley Scott), Denzel Washington's character goes through immense pain and tries to drink it away, and has scars on his hand. We never learn why he has this pain or those scars and just maybe, a backstory was never writen to explain why, but you leave the theater thinking about it and wondering who he is and what happened to him, as if he was a real person. Good stuff.
It doesn't always work, but when it does it's awesome. In the 1960's in "The Thing" you never saw the alien... ever. Since they didn't have a huge budget the director and producer both agreed that an alien is probably beyond most of our human comprehension, so it isn't seen and works really well. In Man On Fire (Directed by Tony Scott, brother to Ridley Scott), Denzel Washington's character goes through immense pain and tries to drink it away, and has scars on his hand. We never learn why he has this pain or those scars and just maybe, a backstory was never writen to explain why, but you leave the theater thinking about it and wondering who he is and what happened to him, as if he was a real person. Good stuff.
4th May 2004, 12:24 PM
I guess I should see Man On Fire, because that's the sort of thing I'm talking about right there. I can see what you are saying goes on. If they went out and SAID how he got those scars, you wouldn't be thinking about it yourself, and the mystery also wouldn't be there.
There's a famous artistic style from Japan that involves occlusion (which is the process of occluding so you know :D, actually I think I used the wrong word). Artists that use this style will draw SOME of whatever they are trying to and the rest will just be sorta hinted at but not actually drawn. Sometimes they will draw a person's face for instance, but not the hair, and the image will sorta just bleed to a solid "blank" color (usually white). It's a very great effect that couldn't be done if they actually drew ALL the detail.
There's a famous artistic style from Japan that involves occlusion (which is the process of occluding so you know :D, actually I think I used the wrong word). Artists that use this style will draw SOME of whatever they are trying to and the rest will just be sorta hinted at but not actually drawn. Sometimes they will draw a person's face for instance, but not the hair, and the image will sorta just bleed to a solid "blank" color (usually white). It's a very great effect that couldn't be done if they actually drew ALL the detail.