28th April 2004, 12:23 PM
What exactly are we trying to prove here? Wether or not a fictional bird can fly as fast as a tiny airplane in a game where a bear races against witches and voodoo priests?
28th April 2004, 12:23 PM
28th April 2004, 12:39 PM
You're arguing my points with my... other... points.
If you want to know why Banjo Pilot uses planes instead of animals and creatures, it's because a color-swapped plane consisting of a few sprites is much easier and cheaper to produce than more detailed sprites with animation. It could also be a memory issue. But the fact remains that Rare was already making a racing game where you ride on animals and chose to use the DKR planes for this GBA game. My input was simply that the animals would have been cooler than the planes. Your point is that the animals would be out of character, so please explain to me how using planes is in character rather than Banjo using Kazooie or Grunty using her broom.
Keep in mind that at this point, I’m only instigating you to see if you can form some kind of rebuttal to the above statement coherently and with purpose. If you can legitimately prove that the planes being used are more in-line with the Banjo~Kazooie universe than the actual characters themselves, I will accept that you are right and I am wrong. I'm being completely serious, no name-calling or the like; I want to hear your real opinions.
If you want to know why Banjo Pilot uses planes instead of animals and creatures, it's because a color-swapped plane consisting of a few sprites is much easier and cheaper to produce than more detailed sprites with animation. It could also be a memory issue. But the fact remains that Rare was already making a racing game where you ride on animals and chose to use the DKR planes for this GBA game. My input was simply that the animals would have been cooler than the planes. Your point is that the animals would be out of character, so please explain to me how using planes is in character rather than Banjo using Kazooie or Grunty using her broom.
Keep in mind that at this point, I’m only instigating you to see if you can form some kind of rebuttal to the above statement coherently and with purpose. If you can legitimately prove that the planes being used are more in-line with the Banjo~Kazooie universe than the actual characters themselves, I will accept that you are right and I am wrong. I'm being completely serious, no name-calling or the like; I want to hear your real opinions.
28th April 2004, 1:17 PM
Using animals would not be out of character, rather it's the animals you are suggesting that would be. I liked the idea of Donkey Kong Racing but would not want to see Banjo flying slow Kazooie while DK gets to ride a super fast ostrich. To make the game balanced, however, you would need to make all of the animals about the same speed. Using planes in Banjo Pilot instead of birds or broomsticks will make it so that every character has an equal chance of winning. Certainly Grunty could whup Banjo's ass if he had to race her with little, slow Kazooie. There's nothing out of character with Banjo and co. flying planes in a race. All of the Nintendo sports and party games make very little sense in terms of plot, but it still works. Why is Bowser racing against Mario? Why is Samus fighting Link when they exist in different times and places? That aspect does not matter, as the reason is to make fun games where the last thing you thing about is story and continuity. However, they don't violate any of the characters abilities and limits. Samus jumps the same, Mario jumps the same, they all have their signature moves, and those that have never been shown fighting before (Captain Falcon) can be dealt with in any way. All of the minor tweaking here and there (mainly Kirby) are still believable. Of course all of these characters and worlds are fictional, but there has to be maintained a certain level of believability and boundaries within these fictional universes. If you establish that Mario dies or gets severely injured whenever he touches lava, you can't just have him swimming through it in another game, UNLESS you give him some sort of power-up that makes sense, like a metal skin or something.
This isn't crap I just made up, believe it or not I'm not quite that much of a dork. This is logic spewed forth from the likes of Chuck Jones, Shigeru Miyamoto, and Stan Lee. And it certainly makes a lot of sense.
This isn't crap I just made up, believe it or not I'm not quite that much of a dork. This is logic spewed forth from the likes of Chuck Jones, Shigeru Miyamoto, and Stan Lee. And it certainly makes a lot of sense.
28th April 2004, 1:23 PM
Honestly OB1, why are you arguing this? The bree bird is not known for her LACK of speed, just her flying. Why would it be SO wrong to make her super fast and yet at the same time perfectly natural to slap them in flying planes? Donkey Kong was riding on Rambi who is just as slow as kazooie in DK's games, but he was REALLY fast there. You saying there's a massive difference? No, don't even bother saying "but Rambi could use a super burst" because we tried pointing out that the bree bird could do the same thing and you didn't like THAT idea. You completely ignored my whole Kirby point, which was that Kirby already HAS the ability to turn to stone, AND do the cutter, AND all that, without even having to eat enemies to temporarily gain it. The fact that Kirby only gets his powers after eating an enemy, not just naturally having them from the start, is RIGHT there a part of Kirbyosity. And Ness didn't HAVE a lot of his abilities until they dumped them on him. Falcon had not one super power until SSB. They just added those out of the big blue.
Face it OB1, they do this stuff ALL the time, in FAR more inconsistent ways, and your little arguments that the bree bird is not race car fast, just MODERATLY fast, are just plain idiotic. LET them do this stuff to their characters! *Plays Super Mario Sunshine with super jetpack ultra fast water squirting Mario action and doesn't care that it's an item or part of his body because that doesn't even matter.*
OB1, you KNOW you are wrong deep down, and you KNOW you would totally love to ride on kazooie, using her like some sort of glider in your backpack, in some race given half a chance. Give up!
Face it OB1, they do this stuff ALL the time, in FAR more inconsistent ways, and your little arguments that the bree bird is not race car fast, just MODERATLY fast, are just plain idiotic. LET them do this stuff to their characters! *Plays Super Mario Sunshine with super jetpack ultra fast water squirting Mario action and doesn't care that it's an item or part of his body because that doesn't even matter.*
OB1, you KNOW you are wrong deep down, and you KNOW you would totally love to ride on kazooie, using her like some sort of glider in your backpack, in some race given half a chance. Give up!
28th April 2004, 1:25 PM
And again, why is adding some speed to kazooie SO against her limits and abilities? They LEARN NEW STUFF LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME from a FRICKIN' MOLE (or "ground rat") ALL THE TIME! Their abilities and limits constantly changed! Hey, Mario is loosing and gaining abilities ALL THE TIME WITHOUT ITEMS AT ALL. Suddenly, the jumper can PUNCH out of nowhere! He's not a martial arts expert! There WERE lots of things changed in SSB. Link is an amalgam of all previous Links. That's not believable at all. You see, if you respond saying "I already pointed out story is irrelevent", then you are being a moron. First off, just because you say it from nowhere doesn't mean we must believe it, second off, THAT'S EXACTLY OUR POINT. We agree with that! It EXTENDS TO ABILITIES TOO THOUGH! If something as major as story can be tossed out, why not abilities? Those aren't more critical than the story of the characters! The gameplay is all that matters! So long as they play in ways that make you think "oh yeah, this is totally that character" then it's fine! And flying with kazooie at top speed WOULD make you do that!
YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE!
YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE!
28th April 2004, 1:41 PM
Quote:Honestly OB1, why are you arguing this?Because this is a video game board and that is what we do.
Quote:The bree bird is not known for her LACK of speed, just her flying. Why would it be SO wrong to make her super fast and yet at the same time perfectly natural to slap them in flying planes? Donkey Kong was riding on Rambi who is just as slow as kazooie in DK's games, but he was REALLY fast there. You saying there's a massive difference? No, don't even bother saying "but Rambi could use a super burst" because we tried pointing out that the bree bird could do the same thing and you didn't like THAT idea.I don't care what the real life bird is known for, as the fact remains that Kazooie is a very slow flyer in both Banjo games. Not only would making her as fast as a jet without some sort of power-up be very dumb, but making her fly like a plane instead of a bird would be even worse. She would have to flap her wings constantly and then slowly glide downwards, which is nothing like a plane. Part of the challenge of racing games is the difficulty of piloting your fast craft, and Kazooie is extremely easy to "pilot".
Rambi? You mean the rhino? The rhino was plenty fast in DK, and since it's not just one particular character it's easy to imagine one being faster than the others.
Quote:You completely ignored my whole Kirby point, which was that Kirby already HAS the ability to turn to stone, AND do the cutter, AND all that, without even having to eat enemies to temporarily gain it. The fact that Kirby only gets his powers after eating an enemy, not just naturally having them from the start, is RIGHT there a part of Kirbyosity. And Ness didn't HAVE a lot of his abilities until they dumped them on him. Falcon had not one super power until SSB. They just added those out of the big blue.It doesn't matter all that much if Kirby was able to perform certain moves without eating an enemy as all that was changed was the manner in which he was able to perform those moves. Same thing goes for Ness. Your Falcon point shows just how laughable your argument is as Falcon never stepped out of his vehicle until SSB, so there's no way for you to know if he did or did not have those powers.
Quote:Face it OB1, they do this stuff ALL the time, in FAR more inconsistent ways, and your little arguments that the bree bird is not race car fast, just MODERATLY fast, are just plain idiotic. LET them do this stuff to their characters! *Plays Super Mario Sunshine with super jetpack ultra fast water squirting Mario action and doesn't care that it's an item or part of his body because that doesn't even matter.*
OB1, you KNOW you are wrong deep down, and you KNOW you would totally love to ride on kazooie, using her like some sort of glider in your backpack, in some race given half a chance. Give up!
I'm sorry DJ, but as per usual all of your points in this argument are a complete joke. I have presented logic and reason while you have done little more than complain about me being in this debate and say how I "KNOW" that I'm wrong. Very, very poor debating skills. FACE IT, girl, you've lost.
Quote:And again, why is adding some speed to kazooie SO against her limits and abilities? They LEARN NEW STUFF LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME from a FRICKIN' MOLE (or "ground rat") ALL THE TIME! Their abilities and limits constantly changed! Hey, Mario is loosing and gaining abilities ALL THE TIME WITHOUT ITEMS AT ALL.
Yes but she didn't gain super speed in any of the games, so it was never established. I already said that you could make kazooie fly really fast and totally not like a bird with some crazy power-up or special item, but it would be much more pointless than just substituting her with a plane.
28th April 2004, 1:50 PM
Oh for the love of... listen to yourself! You think you are the only one being reasonable, but all you do is use OUR OWN POINTS against yourself and think that makes you the winner! I can just imagine you in a loosing fight saying things like "Hah, I am bleeding, thus making me the victor! Watch my groin to your foot technique!".
First off, I was just calling Kazooie a bree bird for fun, not calling attention to the real thing. More than one Rambi? Reading the instructions only gave me the idea there's JUST one Rambi. Kazooie can be plenty fast and keep the wing beats the same as usual. They don't NEED to be humming bird fast to look just perfect. I'm imagining it right now, and it looks just fine! There's NOTHING unreasonable about it!
You said "yes, but that's because they are taken into the context of that world and it's changed to fit it" WHICH IS OUR POINT, and then you say "well, one trademark ability, like how Kirby gets the moves, doesn't matter, but the OTHER part, how it's used, does". That's just asinine, and you know it!
Yeesh, each and every one of my points is still perfectly intact! You debated them WITH EACH OTHER, JUST LIKE LAZY SAID!
First off, I was just calling Kazooie a bree bird for fun, not calling attention to the real thing. More than one Rambi? Reading the instructions only gave me the idea there's JUST one Rambi. Kazooie can be plenty fast and keep the wing beats the same as usual. They don't NEED to be humming bird fast to look just perfect. I'm imagining it right now, and it looks just fine! There's NOTHING unreasonable about it!
You said "yes, but that's because they are taken into the context of that world and it's changed to fit it" WHICH IS OUR POINT, and then you say "well, one trademark ability, like how Kirby gets the moves, doesn't matter, but the OTHER part, how it's used, does". That's just asinine, and you know it!
Yeesh, each and every one of my points is still perfectly intact! You debated them WITH EACH OTHER, JUST LIKE LAZY SAID!
28th April 2004, 1:53 PM
Why can't you people write something without having to add in an extra five sentences five minutes later? Make it another post, dummy!
No, the characters are much more important than the story when it has been established that the story is unimportant. Bugs Bunny can be in a western one minute and a space adventure the next because the story doesn't matter. But you will not see Bugs suddenly becoming as fast as the Road Runner because that would completely change his character. You can add minor changes here and there, but major ones like that would be wrong. Now, you can make him very fast by showing him being fitted with biomechanical parts ala the 60 million dollar man and then make a fun cartoon about that, but you can't just have his character fundamentally changed with no explanation whatsoever.
Quote:Suddenly, the jumper can PUNCH out of nowhere! He's not a martial arts expert! There WERE lots of things changed in SSB. Link is an amalgam of all previous Links. That's not believable at all. You see, if you respond saying "I already pointed out story is irrelevent", then you are being a moron. First off, just because you say it from nowhere doesn't mean we must believe it, second off, THAT'S EXACTLY OUR POINT. We agree with that! It EXTENDS TO ABILITIES TOO THOUGH! If something as major as story can be tossed out, why not abilities? Those aren't more critical than the story of the characters! The gameplay is all that matters! So long as they play in ways that make you think "oh yeah, this is totally that character" then it's fine! And flying with kazooie at top speed WOULD make you do that!
YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE!
No, the characters are much more important than the story when it has been established that the story is unimportant. Bugs Bunny can be in a western one minute and a space adventure the next because the story doesn't matter. But you will not see Bugs suddenly becoming as fast as the Road Runner because that would completely change his character. You can add minor changes here and there, but major ones like that would be wrong. Now, you can make him very fast by showing him being fitted with biomechanical parts ala the 60 million dollar man and then make a fun cartoon about that, but you can't just have his character fundamentally changed with no explanation whatsoever.
28th April 2004, 2:00 PM
Quote:Oh for the love of... listen to yourself! You think you are the only one being reasonable, but all you do is use OUR OWN POINTS against yourself and think that makes you the winner! I can just imagine you in a loosing fight saying things like "Hah, I am bleeding, thus making me the victor! Watch my groin to your foot technique!".That makes no sense at all, and you don't even try to explain what you're saying. How am I using your own points against me? Learn how to debate, DJ.
Quote:First off, I was just calling Kazooie a bree bird for fun, not calling attention to the real thing. More than one Rambi? Reading the instructions only gave me the idea there's JUST one Rambi. Kazooie can be plenty fast and keep the wing beats the same as usual. They don't NEED to be humming bird fast to look just perfect. I'm imagining it right now, and it looks just fine! There's NOTHING unreasonable about it!Yes there is, but I do not expect you to understand since this is obviously a concept far beyond your level of comprehension.
Quote:You said "yes, but that's because they are taken into the context of that world and it's changed to fit it" WHICH IS OUR POINT, and then you say "well, one trademark ability, like how Kirby gets the moves, doesn't matter, but the OTHER part, how it's used, does". That's just asinine, and you know it!No, you are not listening to what I am saying. Remove that colossal ego for one moment and think about what I am saying. The changes made to Kirby in SSB are not major ones as he still has the same abilities. For example, if you were to have Kazooie playable in the game and you didn't have to walk into blue eggs in order to shoot them out of your ass, it wouldn't matter since she is doing what she has always done. That is not a change to her abilities. Making her fly as fast and just like a jet most certainly would be.
Quote:Yeesh, each and every one of my points is still perfectly intact! You debated them WITH EACH OTHER, JUST LIKE LAZY SAID!
I completely ripped apart your points. And there's nothing contradictory about my points if you have enough intelligence to understand them.
28th April 2004, 2:00 PM
Sure you can, and they did! Bugs Bunny suddenly gets super abilites FROM NO WHERE because he's frickin' Bugs Bunny in LOONEY TOONS! He suddenly gets the ability to fly via his ears for instance, never seen before that cartoon, but he does it. And why are we arguing this? Honestly, Bugs Bunny and the Banjo universe are similar in that they are absurd.
Face it OB1, you are being too stubborn to see how ridiculous you are being. Why can't you admit that?
Face it OB1, you are being too stubborn to see how ridiculous you are being. Why can't you admit that?
28th April 2004, 2:05 PM
Quote:Sure you can, and they did! Bugs Bunny suddenly gets super abilites FROM NO WHERE because he's frickin' Bugs Bunny in LOONEY TOONS! He suddenly gets the ability to fly via his ears for instance, never seen before that cartoon, but he does it. And why are we arguing this? Honestly, Bugs Bunny and the Banjo universe are similar in that they are absurd.Flying with his ears is not out of character for Bugs because it is in line with Loony Toons physics (seriously) and uses his pre-existing ears to do something that makes perfect sense in that world.
I know, this may sound absurd, but there is actual cartoon logic here. I don't expect you to understand it immediately, but what I'm saying is true.
Quote:Face it OB1, you are being too stubborn to see how ridiculous you are being. Why can't you admit that?
WOW. Again and again you amaze me with your incredible debating skills. I never knew how effective repeating over and over again "Face it, you know you're wrong" was! It's just so convicing! By golly, you proved me wrong alright!
I applaud your debating skills, DJ! :clap:
28th April 2004, 2:10 PM
Well, what if they added a story element where Banjo and Kazooie find a super-feather power-up that enables Kazooie to fly fast and that's why they decide to have a race?
28th April 2004, 2:12 PM
Fly fast and like a plane (remember that you increase speed by flying upwards)? Sure, they could do that. But I still think it would be pretty dumb and pointless for a racing game.
28th April 2004, 2:18 PM
*sigh* Why didn't you just say so from the start?
28th April 2004, 2:23 PM
Okay, so you're saying that it's extremely important to stay within certain boundaries to help the game player have a familiar relationship with the character. Just as you said, we are comfortable that Mario can’t go in lava, but that Shadowman does it all the time with his mystic tattoos. We fully comprehend that Mythril is unbreakable and that fairies live for thousands of years and only die if they're never loved or that a Ring can destroy the world. We accept these things because they are presented to us. Link looks like Leonardo Dicaprio and fights a huge demon/Balrog Ganon in the ruins of Ganon's tower... or he's a small ninja-midget that fights along side Tetra (who is related to Zelda) under a waterfall (which is underwater) on top of Hyrule Castle where Link shoves the Master Sword in to Ganondorf's head and he then becomes a statue and.... oh wait then he's on an imaginary island where he fights a Nightmare in the Windfish's egg oh but now he's in an underground lair of lava people... you get my point. Realistic universe... stylized artistic universe... one with pirate music everywhere. Totally inconsistent, even alienating Zelda fans, but it is now accepted because that is what we are presented with.
Video games are based on the principal, as you said, to present rules and guidelines and then take you on a journey of learning how to bend and break those guide lines.
If you fall you die.
But you can turn back time.
This chasm is way too large for you to jump.
So learn how to fly.
It's a very traditional principal in video games especially because it makes the game player feel like he's apart of something even more real then his imagination first thought it was since he is now applying real world knowledge and game rules and guide lines to venture forward.
Do you agree with me so far?
Mario, before the analogue stick, had a 'Run' button which you can press to go faster, its how we flew in Mario 3. In Mario 64 there was no need for a run button because of the analogue stick which would let the player control the speed in many different variations based on preference. You could fly here too, in 3-D. But instead of gaining speed to fly, you simply jumped 3 times. In the first B~K the ability of flight had to be found and earned by collecting Red feathers. In Banjo~Tooie you begin the game with the ability to fly and even let Kazooie fly on her own without holding Banjo. When she did this, she was much faster and agile, you didn't even need red feathers to fly if was just Kazooie. You could even swim like a torpedo and run super fast, even jump higher than Banjo. All of these new and interesting moves... that completely changed the entire concept of Banjo~Kazooie. Kazooie had evolved in to something else, as did Banjo who gained a new list of moves on top of the ones he already had. Let's say a Banjo~Threeie was still coming out for Gamecube. Can you imagine what new abilities the bear and bird would have? It would evolve again, breaking old boundaries and creating new ones, forming new gameplay mechanics. Perhaps you would see a Mecha B~K that Grunty made to combat you, a robot Banjo with a jet-powered Kazooie.
In DKR, the vehicles, specifically the planes in DKR were not fast at all. In fact, all 'kart' racing games are pretty slow since they delegate so much of the gameplay to strategic turns and weapon use. If in Banjo Pilot, Banjo would be riding on Kazooie you would simply accept it as something new and interesting and borrowed. Kazooie could gain boosts and use different eggs as missiles, she could even hypothetically ground herself and run while carrying Banjo still maintaining her top speed and in fact, be comparatively exact to a character using a plane perhaps even more so; She could perform all the same moves, etc. And you would have no issue with Banjo riding Kazooie. Just as you don’t have an issue with Shadowman not being able to use a shotgun in Deadside or use the Flambeau in live side, or Samus gets a space jump that only allows two consecutive jumps. It may be hard to accept at first but it will quickly integrate itself in to the game you are playing. As there isn't a single point in Metroid Prime where a real space jump would be advantageous over double jumping. You have no problem with playing Mario Sunshine and see that Mario can no longer fly when he did so in 3 consecutive games. In fact, if Banjo Pilot came out and all the characters were riding Jinjos you might say it's gay, but it wouldn't effect the gameplay at all since the Jinjos would move and react exactly as the planes do in DKR; Same speed, same attributes, they just look like Jinjos.
So ultimately, my point is very simple. The ideal of planes was fine for a game that has Diddy and Conker and Banjo in the same game. But a game based solely on ONE universe should borrow heavily from that universe in its conceptualized design. So in fact, by having Banjo race using Kazooie against Grunty who uses her broom and Mumbo Jumbo who flies on an Aztec statue of a bat and Humba Wumba riding a War Painted Eagle while Klungo rides a flying machine - all of them the same speed and same attributes as each other, except for the obvious counter measures, smaller character means lower top speed but better turning, larger character means high top speed but harder to turn, and all that jazz would be a better design that simply using planes which have nothing to do at all with any part of the B~K universe at all. Even if Banjo rode on the Washing Machine, it would add to the already compelling fantasy and humor of the game that is based on the variables and imagination presented in cartoons and would be more welcomed to the design of the game more so than a plane, as it was something actually presented as a joke in the first game.
I anxiously await your reply.
Video games are based on the principal, as you said, to present rules and guidelines and then take you on a journey of learning how to bend and break those guide lines.
If you fall you die.
But you can turn back time.
This chasm is way too large for you to jump.
So learn how to fly.
It's a very traditional principal in video games especially because it makes the game player feel like he's apart of something even more real then his imagination first thought it was since he is now applying real world knowledge and game rules and guide lines to venture forward.
Do you agree with me so far?
Mario, before the analogue stick, had a 'Run' button which you can press to go faster, its how we flew in Mario 3. In Mario 64 there was no need for a run button because of the analogue stick which would let the player control the speed in many different variations based on preference. You could fly here too, in 3-D. But instead of gaining speed to fly, you simply jumped 3 times. In the first B~K the ability of flight had to be found and earned by collecting Red feathers. In Banjo~Tooie you begin the game with the ability to fly and even let Kazooie fly on her own without holding Banjo. When she did this, she was much faster and agile, you didn't even need red feathers to fly if was just Kazooie. You could even swim like a torpedo and run super fast, even jump higher than Banjo. All of these new and interesting moves... that completely changed the entire concept of Banjo~Kazooie. Kazooie had evolved in to something else, as did Banjo who gained a new list of moves on top of the ones he already had. Let's say a Banjo~Threeie was still coming out for Gamecube. Can you imagine what new abilities the bear and bird would have? It would evolve again, breaking old boundaries and creating new ones, forming new gameplay mechanics. Perhaps you would see a Mecha B~K that Grunty made to combat you, a robot Banjo with a jet-powered Kazooie.
In DKR, the vehicles, specifically the planes in DKR were not fast at all. In fact, all 'kart' racing games are pretty slow since they delegate so much of the gameplay to strategic turns and weapon use. If in Banjo Pilot, Banjo would be riding on Kazooie you would simply accept it as something new and interesting and borrowed. Kazooie could gain boosts and use different eggs as missiles, she could even hypothetically ground herself and run while carrying Banjo still maintaining her top speed and in fact, be comparatively exact to a character using a plane perhaps even more so; She could perform all the same moves, etc. And you would have no issue with Banjo riding Kazooie. Just as you don’t have an issue with Shadowman not being able to use a shotgun in Deadside or use the Flambeau in live side, or Samus gets a space jump that only allows two consecutive jumps. It may be hard to accept at first but it will quickly integrate itself in to the game you are playing. As there isn't a single point in Metroid Prime where a real space jump would be advantageous over double jumping. You have no problem with playing Mario Sunshine and see that Mario can no longer fly when he did so in 3 consecutive games. In fact, if Banjo Pilot came out and all the characters were riding Jinjos you might say it's gay, but it wouldn't effect the gameplay at all since the Jinjos would move and react exactly as the planes do in DKR; Same speed, same attributes, they just look like Jinjos.
So ultimately, my point is very simple. The ideal of planes was fine for a game that has Diddy and Conker and Banjo in the same game. But a game based solely on ONE universe should borrow heavily from that universe in its conceptualized design. So in fact, by having Banjo race using Kazooie against Grunty who uses her broom and Mumbo Jumbo who flies on an Aztec statue of a bat and Humba Wumba riding a War Painted Eagle while Klungo rides a flying machine - all of them the same speed and same attributes as each other, except for the obvious counter measures, smaller character means lower top speed but better turning, larger character means high top speed but harder to turn, and all that jazz would be a better design that simply using planes which have nothing to do at all with any part of the B~K universe at all. Even if Banjo rode on the Washing Machine, it would add to the already compelling fantasy and humor of the game that is based on the variables and imagination presented in cartoons and would be more welcomed to the design of the game more so than a plane, as it was something actually presented as a joke in the first game.
I anxiously await your reply.
28th April 2004, 2:24 PM
GR Wrote:*sigh* Why didn't you just say so from the start?
Uh, I did say that from the start, as well as several other times since then. You're just not paying attention. :D
I said that and then lazy and DJ went all crazy and lazy yelled about penises and DJ yelled about how wrong I know I am, etc. It's a never-ending cycle.
28th April 2004, 2:43 PM
And ALSO we made very valid points, though lazy's points ARE in fact more important than mine. Honestly, Zelda 2 completely changed the entire way Link acted and played, yet we all excepted it (most of us) because really, that's exactly what we WANTED, something new and different! Your "rules and such" in Looney Toons are just plain silly, as is that show. With something like that, there ARE no limits. They can take it as far as they want, so long as they don't cuss or have excessive blood and gore, and it's fine. Bugs Bunny can run along in a chase scene, SUDDENLY do a weird dance that he's never done before WHILE running along, and then out of nowhere divide in two underwater around a rock somehow, and we all except it even though we never saw the show QUITE break the laws of physics like that before, because it's funny! You are right, they do that because it falls within the show's limits. The limits being "nothing at all". However, limits can be vastly expanded. The fact that it's an item rather than a part of the person's body is completely and utterly irrelevent, and you need to understand that to get our point.
28th April 2004, 2:49 PM
Quote:Okay, so you're saying that it's extremely important to stay within certain boundaries to help the game player have a familiar relationship with the character. Just as you said, we are comfortable that Mario can’t go in lava, but that Shadowman does it all the time with his mystic tattoos. We fully comprehend that Mythril is unbreakable and that fairies live for thousands of years and only die if they're never loved or that a Ring can destroy the world. We accept these things because they are presented to us. Link looks like Leonardo Dicaprio and fights a huge demon/Balrog Ganon in the ruins of Ganon's tower... or he's a small ninja-midget that fights along side Tetra (who is related to Zelda) under a waterfall (which is underwater) on top of Hyrule Castle where Link shoves the Master Sword in to Ganondorf's head and he then becomes a statue and.... oh wait then he's on an imaginary island where he fights a Nightmare in the Windfish's egg oh but now he's in an underground lair of lava people... you get my point. Realistic universe... stylized artistic universe... one with pirate music everywhere. Totally inconsistent, even alienating Zelda fans, but it is now accepted because that is what we are presented with.No, you misunderstood me. You can make whatever crazy situation or story your imagination can come up with, but once you've established certain rules and boundaries you have to stick with them. Mario being hurt by lava and Shadowman not being hurt by lava is in no way contradictory since they are different characters existing in different fantasy worlds. And there's nothing inconsistent with Wind Waker. None of the previous games had a realistic look to them, and all of the stories are fantastical. But Link is always basically the same person. He still gets hurt the same way, he still has to gain power-ups to perform remarkable feats, etc. Nothing at all contradictory with any of that.
Quote:Video games are based on the principal, as you said, to present rules and guidelines and then take you on a journey of learning how to bend and break those guide lines.Yes, that is what I have been saying. No matter how fantastical the world may be, if you set rules and guidelines within that universe it can seem perfectly natural and realistic.
If you fall you die.
But you can turn back time.
This chasm is way too large for you to jump.
So learn how to fly.
It's a very traditional principal in video games especially because it makes the game player feel like he's apart of something even more real then his imagination first thought it was since he is now applying real world knowledge and game rules and guide lines to venture forward.
Do you agree with me so far?
Quote:Mario, before the analogue stick, had a 'Run' button which you can press to go faster, its how we flew in Mario 3. In Mario 64 there was no need for a run button because of the analogue stick which would let the player control the speed in many different variations based on preference.That does not change the character or contradict anything in the Mario universe. It only changes how you the player controls things.
Quote:You could fly here too, in 3-D. But instead of gaining speed to fly, you simply jumped 3 times.That is because you used a different flying power-up which acted very different from the previous ones. Again, nothing contradictory there.
Quote:In the first B~K the ability of flight had to be found and earned by collecting Red feathers. In Banjo~Tooie you begin the game with the ability to fly and even let Kazooie fly on her own without holding Banjo.Banjo-Tooie happens right after Banjo-Kazooie so you have all of the moves that the characters acquired in the first game. Nothing contradictory there.
Quote:When she did this, she was much faster and agile, you didn't even need red feathers to fly if was just Kazooie. You could even swim like a torpedo and run super fast, even jump higher than Banjo. All of these new and interesting moves... that completely changed the entire concept of Banjo~Kazooie.It changed what you could do, but was in no way contradictory to what had been established in the previous game, and made perfect sense. Of course Kazooie would be faster without having to carry Banjo. That absolutely makes sense. In B-K you only controlled them as one being, so it's natural to assume that by themselves they could do different things.
Quote:Kazooie had evolved in to something else, as did Banjo who gained a new list of moves on top of the ones he already had. Let's say a Banjo~Threeie was still coming out for Gamecube. Can you imagine what new abilities the bear and bird would have? It would evolve again, breaking old boundaries and creating new ones, forming new gameplay mechanics. Perhaps you would see a Mecha B~K that Grunty made to combat you, a robot Banjo with a jet-powered Kazooie.Yes, and you would see in the game how it would make sense, as they would learn new moves. Again, nothing contradictory.
Quote:In DKR, the vehicles, specifically the planes in DKR were not fast at all. In fact, all 'kart' racing games are pretty slow since they delegate so much of the gameplay to strategic turns and weapon use. If in Banjo Pilot, Banjo would be riding on Kazooie you would simply accept it as something new and interesting and borrowed. Kazooie could gain boosts and use different eggs as missiles, she could even hypothetically ground herself and run while carrying Banjo still maintaining her top speed and in fact, be comparatively exact to a character using a plane perhaps even more so; She could perform all the same moves, etc. And you would have no issue with Banjo riding Kazooie.If you were to put a DKR track into B-K or B-T, it would take you much longer to race around each track than it would with any vehicle in DKR. Now like I've been saying this entire time, you could explain that Kazooie got a super feather or whatever which not only made her very fast but also fly like a plane, but what would be the point?
Quote:Just as you don’t have an issue with Shadowman not being able to use a shotgun in Deadside or use the Flambeau in live side, or Samus gets a space jump that only allows two consecutive jumps. It may be hard to accept at first but it will quickly integrate itself in to the game you are playing. As there isn't a single point in Metroid Prime where a real space jump would be advantageous over double jumping.How are those things difficult to accept? They are presented to us matter-of-factly in the games and they make sense in their respective universes. That has nothing to do with the debate at hand.
Quote: You have no problem with playing Mario Sunshine and see that Mario can no longer fly when he did so in 3 consecutive games.Again, you have completely missed the point of this entire debate. There are no flying power-ups in Mario Sunshine, so there is absolutely nothing contradictory about Mario not being able to fly in that game. The power-ups are not a part of the characters, they are merely items which enable the characters to do amazing things. Each game has different power-ups so it is not unusual at all.
Quote:In fact, if Banjo Pilot came out and all the characters were riding Jinjos you might say it's gay, but it wouldn't effect the gameplay at all since the Jinjos would move and react exactly as the planes do in DKR; Same speed, same attributes, they just look like Jinjos.Actually I think that would work just fine, since the jinjos showed that they could fly like planes in the Banjo series.
Quote:So ultimately, my point is very simple. The ideal of planes was fine for a game that has Diddy and Conker and Banjo in the same game. But a game based solely on ONE universe should borrow heavily from that universe in its conceptualized design. So in fact, by having Banjo race using Kazooie against Grunty who uses her broom and Mumbo Jumbo who flies on an Aztec statue of a bat and Humba Wumba riding a War Painted Eagle while Klungo rides a flying machine - all of them the same speed and same attributes as each other, except for the obvious counter measures, smaller character means lower top speed but better turning, larger character means high top speed but harder to turn, and all that jazz would be a better design that simply using planes which have nothing to do at all with any part of the B~K universe at all. Even if Banjo rode on the Washing Machine, it would add to the already compelling fantasy and humor of the game that is based on the variables and imagination presented in cartoons and would be more welcomed to the design of the game more so than a plane, as it was something actually presented as a joke in the first game.Using more imaginative vehicles than planes would be welcome, but using Kazooie as a plane would still be wrong unless they made up an excuse for her massive change of character and limitations.
I anxiously await your reply.
28th April 2004, 2:55 PM
Quote:And ALSO we made very valid points, though lazy's points ARE in fact more important than mine. Honestly, Zelda 2 completely changed the entire way Link acted and played, yet we all excepted it (most of us) because really, that's exactly what we WANTED, something new and different! Your "rules and such" in Looney Toons are just plain silly, as is that show. With something like that, there ARE no limits. They can take it as far as they want, so long as they don't cuss or have excessive blood and gore, and it's fine. Bugs Bunny can run along in a chase scene, SUDDENLY do a weird dance that he's never done before WHILE running along, and then out of nowhere divide in two underwater around a rock somehow, and we all except it even though we never saw the show QUITE break the laws of physics like that before, because it's funny! You are right, they do that because it falls within the show's limits. The limits being "nothing at all". However, limits can be vastly expanded. The fact that it's an item rather than a part of the person's body is completely and utterly irrelevent, and you need to understand that to get our point.No, there are most certainly limits in the Loony Toons universe. You can read any number of intereviews with the likes of Chuck Jones where they talk in depth about that. Bugs does crazy things that are in character. Kazooie also does crazy cartoony things but she is even more restrained in her limitations than Bugs is. It was established how she flies, and it's definitely not suitable for a racing game. She flaps upwards and controls more like a helicopter than a jet.
28th April 2004, 3:41 PM
Quote:Uh, I did say that from the start, as well as several other times since then. You're just not paying attention.\
No you didn't! Instead of saying "I don't like that because it's stupid" you tried to come up with reasons why we were wrong!!
28th April 2004, 6:45 PM
Here's what I said last page:
And you babies cried about it and made a huge debate of it. So huge, and so incredibly stupid, that it surpasses anything I have debated ABF on. Seriously.
Quote:You'd have to make up a reason for her flying much faster in Banjo Pilot, which would be dumb.
And you babies cried about it and made a huge debate of it. So huge, and so incredibly stupid, that it surpasses anything I have debated ABF on. Seriously.
28th April 2004, 9:12 PM
You act like it's a TOTAL contradiciton, but as I've said, she is NOT known for being slow, she's known for being able to FLY, and that's IT, so no matter what they change about how she flies, it's still within how people know her. So long as she uses her wings, it doesn't matter.
For that matter, concerning limitations and abilities, SSB again. Link and Samus should NOT be on even footing, but they are PUT on even footing and we totally accept it, because we just want to have FUN, not analyze everything to the nth degree. So what if TECHNICALLY a cheap metal and wood shield could never actually protect against a missile, or a bow being no match for an energy gun. It's all in good fun!
For that matter, concerning limitations and abilities, SSB again. Link and Samus should NOT be on even footing, but they are PUT on even footing and we totally accept it, because we just want to have FUN, not analyze everything to the nth degree. So what if TECHNICALLY a cheap metal and wood shield could never actually protect against a missile, or a bow being no match for an energy gun. It's all in good fun!
29th April 2004, 12:49 AM
OB1 you seem to be agreeing with me but you act like the debate is still going on. You agree that Jinjos would be okay since they can fly like planes. Kazooie can also fly like a plane (or more like a hang glider) yet you wouldn't want to see her in a video game as a... flying vehicle... which she already is?
Then you say that you have no problem with being presented with a new controller setup or guide lines of controlling and using that character, and yet you disregard the idea of Kazooie being used in racing game? Why is it okay for Banjo and not Kazooie? Then again, you say that if the game presents the idea in a way that makes sense to the gameplayer, you can COMPLETELY alter the consistency (as with the Prime space jump boots) and it will be okay, because the game made it out that way? How was the Prime Space Jump presented to you matter-of-factly? It simply exists with the name of old power up that does something completely different. In essence, it's a totally new power up... yet it reuses the old name. While in Metroid Fusion, the Space Jump exists there as well but you can jump in to flight. It also exists in Zero Mission and allows you jump in to flight. Yet in Prime, it is completely different without any explanation... and you're okay with that?
This is confusing me... you say that if you put a DKR track in a B~K game... it would take you longer to race through it... I don’t understand... how do you know that? Is the gravity different in B~K as compared to DKR? Since, I’m assuming you know, the in-game conversion of inches to feet is the same ratio in most Rare games, it's only the dimensions that change. Banjo at full speed will cover the same amount of ground as a DKR kart in the same amount of time. It only feels faster because one, the tracks in DKR are much smaller than any of the world's in either B~K game and the character models (in their vehicles) are larger than Banjo. This was done so that Rare could test out their new skinning method, where an entire texture map is wrapped around a skeleton, hence why the characters in DKR look seamless. In Goldeneye and Perfeck Dark, the textures and the poly models are huge to create scope and physical resonance, the props and sets are virtually 'life size' in terms of inches to feet. But Joanna will cover the same amount of ground as Banjo would or as the DKR hovercraft would in the same amount of time, if you could convert their scales (essentially making them all the same 'size').
You say that since we weren't presented with powerups that would allow flight in Mario Sunshine, it's not contradictory even though the past 3 games (spanning several years... a decade or more) allowed you to fly. However if I reverse the situation and present you with a game where an established character does something completely new and has never done it before, it would be... contradictory? We're not even talking about a completely new ability either... it's what Kazooie does best; Carry Banjo around and give him flight.
Then finally (I’ll stop it here because there are way too many directions to take this argument for me to prove my points), you say you have no problem with Jinjos acting like airplanes. I'm glad you walked in to this one, Jinjos never flied at any point in either B~K game. In fact, they stood still, silent (occasionally whistling and yelling 'over here!') until you touched them where upon they would be 'freed' and would disappear. The only "flight" they had, are when they were disappearing they encircled Banjo and yelled 'Jinjo!'. They would float, I’ll give you that, but they floated in the air just as any other item would when you grab it. Now it is true that at the end of B~K you had to 'fire' Jinjos like rockets at Grunty, but there is obviously no controlled flight (since you had to aim them) and they can only move through the air in short bursts. And yet knowing this (I’m assuming you played both games) you still state that Jinjos would make a better candidate for replacing the plane for Banjo in Banjo Pilot rather than Kazooie, who can not only move in short bursts but could also do barrel rolls, glide infinitely, dive and climb at break-neck speeds and do all of this while carrying a 250 pound bear. Now which is more contradicting?
Let me give you an example of how it would work.
The race is starting, the words "Get Ready!" appear on the screen and we know from DKR that you press the gas when the "get Ready" is almost completely invisible. You do so and Kazooie yells out "BREEEE!" and you're off in a whirl of red feathers. Banjo gives out his trademark "Duh-huh!" as the speed boost dies down and you regain control of Kazooie. You're moving down a straight away now and Kazooie is gliding, occasionally flapping her arms. In front of you, you see a fence and you need to nose up before you hit the wall. Nosing up, you bring Kazooie's head and shoulders up to air brake but you don’t MOVE up. You need to climb, so you tap your gas button and Kazooie thrusts her wings up and down once. A glittering red feather falls from her butt. But this is only an animation since you don’t actually grab red feathers in the game to continue you’re climbing. The animation of the red feather falling is only there to make reference to other B~K games. A moment of "Oh I remember that!" like all great Nintendo games that are heavily basted in memorabilia and to evoke a sense of tradition over time.
As you climb upwards you see the feathers fall and you have cleared the fence with ease. Kazooie maintains her speed and height and glides effortlessly, allowing the player to focus on firing eggs from Kazooie's mouth at any racers that may have gotten ahead of them. A simple targeting 'scope' or reticule is used to show you the path that the fired egg will take. As you take a mild turn, tapping your air or holding down your brakes to turn even more in either direction, you reach another wall; but this time there is a cave directly beneath the wall. You nose down and hold the gas button down causing Kazooie to bring her wings in. She is now a missile and falls straight down - But before you hit the bottom of the cave, you let go of the gas button and nose up, making Kazooie's wings stretch out and giving you a parachute to slow yourself down to a controllable speed.
A racer is directly behind you, and you have egg ammo to spare. Once you clear the cave you double tap the air brakes while nosing up. Kazooie lets out a gagging "Kaw!" from the jolt and thrusts her wings downward shooting her straight up and then retracts them for a split second to fall backwards. Now you are behind the racer who was behind you and you have performed a loop. You quickly take aim by holding down the fire button (let's say, in the case of this game being on the GBA, firing weapons will be done by using the select button), which allows you to home in on your target, and release. Successfully shooting down the other racer briefly, but enough to get you more distance between you and the other racer.
As you can see the idea works fine, in theory. And it would have worked in Banjo Pilot except for the memory issues. All those extra animations and sound effects would have bogged down the memory so the idea of a much more simple plane was used that can be color swapped for each racing character.
There is absolutely no point in continuing this debate unless you can provide some kind of concrete angle on it. All of the points that you made were contradictory and had no purpose, in fact, even without knowing your character as a person who likes to argue over anything, I would have to say that by your posts in this thread alone I would have believed you to be that way. You said time and again that being presented with a completely new idea doesn't bother you. You said that a character of extreme limitations would still be a good candidate for controlled flight in a racing genre. You said that if the new idea is presented to you logically, you will completely accept it (Prime space jump) and basically... you agreed with everything I said, and yet you still want to argue. I do not understand at all.
Then you say that you have no problem with being presented with a new controller setup or guide lines of controlling and using that character, and yet you disregard the idea of Kazooie being used in racing game? Why is it okay for Banjo and not Kazooie? Then again, you say that if the game presents the idea in a way that makes sense to the gameplayer, you can COMPLETELY alter the consistency (as with the Prime space jump boots) and it will be okay, because the game made it out that way? How was the Prime Space Jump presented to you matter-of-factly? It simply exists with the name of old power up that does something completely different. In essence, it's a totally new power up... yet it reuses the old name. While in Metroid Fusion, the Space Jump exists there as well but you can jump in to flight. It also exists in Zero Mission and allows you jump in to flight. Yet in Prime, it is completely different without any explanation... and you're okay with that?
This is confusing me... you say that if you put a DKR track in a B~K game... it would take you longer to race through it... I don’t understand... how do you know that? Is the gravity different in B~K as compared to DKR? Since, I’m assuming you know, the in-game conversion of inches to feet is the same ratio in most Rare games, it's only the dimensions that change. Banjo at full speed will cover the same amount of ground as a DKR kart in the same amount of time. It only feels faster because one, the tracks in DKR are much smaller than any of the world's in either B~K game and the character models (in their vehicles) are larger than Banjo. This was done so that Rare could test out their new skinning method, where an entire texture map is wrapped around a skeleton, hence why the characters in DKR look seamless. In Goldeneye and Perfeck Dark, the textures and the poly models are huge to create scope and physical resonance, the props and sets are virtually 'life size' in terms of inches to feet. But Joanna will cover the same amount of ground as Banjo would or as the DKR hovercraft would in the same amount of time, if you could convert their scales (essentially making them all the same 'size').
You say that since we weren't presented with powerups that would allow flight in Mario Sunshine, it's not contradictory even though the past 3 games (spanning several years... a decade or more) allowed you to fly. However if I reverse the situation and present you with a game where an established character does something completely new and has never done it before, it would be... contradictory? We're not even talking about a completely new ability either... it's what Kazooie does best; Carry Banjo around and give him flight.
Then finally (I’ll stop it here because there are way too many directions to take this argument for me to prove my points), you say you have no problem with Jinjos acting like airplanes. I'm glad you walked in to this one, Jinjos never flied at any point in either B~K game. In fact, they stood still, silent (occasionally whistling and yelling 'over here!') until you touched them where upon they would be 'freed' and would disappear. The only "flight" they had, are when they were disappearing they encircled Banjo and yelled 'Jinjo!'. They would float, I’ll give you that, but they floated in the air just as any other item would when you grab it. Now it is true that at the end of B~K you had to 'fire' Jinjos like rockets at Grunty, but there is obviously no controlled flight (since you had to aim them) and they can only move through the air in short bursts. And yet knowing this (I’m assuming you played both games) you still state that Jinjos would make a better candidate for replacing the plane for Banjo in Banjo Pilot rather than Kazooie, who can not only move in short bursts but could also do barrel rolls, glide infinitely, dive and climb at break-neck speeds and do all of this while carrying a 250 pound bear. Now which is more contradicting?
Let me give you an example of how it would work.
The race is starting, the words "Get Ready!" appear on the screen and we know from DKR that you press the gas when the "get Ready" is almost completely invisible. You do so and Kazooie yells out "BREEEE!" and you're off in a whirl of red feathers. Banjo gives out his trademark "Duh-huh!" as the speed boost dies down and you regain control of Kazooie. You're moving down a straight away now and Kazooie is gliding, occasionally flapping her arms. In front of you, you see a fence and you need to nose up before you hit the wall. Nosing up, you bring Kazooie's head and shoulders up to air brake but you don’t MOVE up. You need to climb, so you tap your gas button and Kazooie thrusts her wings up and down once. A glittering red feather falls from her butt. But this is only an animation since you don’t actually grab red feathers in the game to continue you’re climbing. The animation of the red feather falling is only there to make reference to other B~K games. A moment of "Oh I remember that!" like all great Nintendo games that are heavily basted in memorabilia and to evoke a sense of tradition over time.
As you climb upwards you see the feathers fall and you have cleared the fence with ease. Kazooie maintains her speed and height and glides effortlessly, allowing the player to focus on firing eggs from Kazooie's mouth at any racers that may have gotten ahead of them. A simple targeting 'scope' or reticule is used to show you the path that the fired egg will take. As you take a mild turn, tapping your air or holding down your brakes to turn even more in either direction, you reach another wall; but this time there is a cave directly beneath the wall. You nose down and hold the gas button down causing Kazooie to bring her wings in. She is now a missile and falls straight down - But before you hit the bottom of the cave, you let go of the gas button and nose up, making Kazooie's wings stretch out and giving you a parachute to slow yourself down to a controllable speed.
A racer is directly behind you, and you have egg ammo to spare. Once you clear the cave you double tap the air brakes while nosing up. Kazooie lets out a gagging "Kaw!" from the jolt and thrusts her wings downward shooting her straight up and then retracts them for a split second to fall backwards. Now you are behind the racer who was behind you and you have performed a loop. You quickly take aim by holding down the fire button (let's say, in the case of this game being on the GBA, firing weapons will be done by using the select button), which allows you to home in on your target, and release. Successfully shooting down the other racer briefly, but enough to get you more distance between you and the other racer.
As you can see the idea works fine, in theory. And it would have worked in Banjo Pilot except for the memory issues. All those extra animations and sound effects would have bogged down the memory so the idea of a much more simple plane was used that can be color swapped for each racing character.
There is absolutely no point in continuing this debate unless you can provide some kind of concrete angle on it. All of the points that you made were contradictory and had no purpose, in fact, even without knowing your character as a person who likes to argue over anything, I would have to say that by your posts in this thread alone I would have believed you to be that way. You said time and again that being presented with a completely new idea doesn't bother you. You said that a character of extreme limitations would still be a good candidate for controlled flight in a racing genre. You said that if the new idea is presented to you logically, you will completely accept it (Prime space jump) and basically... you agreed with everything I said, and yet you still want to argue. I do not understand at all.
29th April 2004, 1:02 AM
I totally agree with you DJ. While it is true that concepts need to stay in some kind of guide lines, those guide lines are constantly blurred and played with... since that's what they're there for. I dont understand OB1's obsession with characters (especially characters based in a cartoon universe) needing to be so grounded and limited. Last time I looked, Mario could do anything, even become metal or invisible or become a star, or touch a flower made of fire which would somehow give him the ability to shoot fire from his hands. Not to mention the fact that he's a small overweight man that can jump 100 feet in the air, dive to the ocean depths and surface without being depressurized, fall from MILES above the earth and hit the ground unscathed, recieves health from coins, can become a helicopter by simply holding his arms out and about a billion other things that make absolutely no sense and change with every game, even to the point of completely shattering all of the previous abilities in return for new ones with no reasoning other than 'this is how Mario is in THIS game'. I dont understand why the same ideal cant be applied to other characters as well, especially cartoon oriented designs who find their way in to multiple genres such as 3-D platform and racing.
Just between me and you, I feel like OB1 is desperate to prove a point that he doesn't agree with himself. When he plays the next Mario game and Mario suddenly has the ability to move things with his mind, it would be very interesting to see how he takes it.
Just between me and you, I feel like OB1 is desperate to prove a point that he doesn't agree with himself. When he plays the next Mario game and Mario suddenly has the ability to move things with his mind, it would be very interesting to see how he takes it.
29th April 2004, 8:29 AM
One last thing, concerning my blatent insults and "you know I'm right" statement. You are totally right, those are terrible argument methods, in fact just insults plain and simple. Seems I shouldn't have done that though. Anyway, believe it or not a point was made. I essentially was doing EXACTLY what you do VERY often in debates. That is, you constantly claim that everyone knows you are right, or that the other person is being too stubborn to admit it, and do all sorts of shoutings of "moron!". When it's done to YOU, you see exactly how stupid and pointless it is. However, you didn't acknowledge that you do the same thing all the time. ABF himself has stated EXACTLY what you said. "Oh yeah, shouting "you are wrong" sure does prove you right..." ring a bell? Honestly OB1, it's like it's fine when YOU do it, but not when anyone else does it. It's wrong no matter who does it. I guess I'm saying sorry about doing that to you. Also, keep in mind you shouldn't do that either.
lazy, we seemed to have taken different directions in our arguments, though yours I believe was more valid. My main argument was that it WAS totally within character for her to do it, and yours was that it didn't matter because they change them all the time, and then eventually it all blended together into the same amalgament. Anyway, yes I totally agree that OB1, deep down, knows he agrees with us, but is likely being a "devil's advocate" or something... in the most ass way possible.
lazy, we seemed to have taken different directions in our arguments, though yours I believe was more valid. My main argument was that it WAS totally within character for her to do it, and yours was that it didn't matter because they change them all the time, and then eventually it all blended together into the same amalgament. Anyway, yes I totally agree that OB1, deep down, knows he agrees with us, but is likely being a "devil's advocate" or something... in the most ass way possible.
29th April 2004, 9:57 AM
DJ/ I've already addressed your points and will not repeat myself again.
Lazy, let me stop you right there. Jinjos fly like planes. Kazooie flaps upwards and can glide at a slight angle downwards. If Banjo Pilot was not a typical racing game and you started from say, the top of a mountain and had to race your way downwards, Kazooie might work. But she can't fly like a plane!
Samus' abilities are not inherent like Kazooie's are. They completely rely upon upgrades to her armor, and just because in one game she doesn't have the same upgrades doesn't mean that she couldn't have different upgrades in a different game.
Lazy I don't know when's the last time you played DKR and a Banjo game, but Banjo can most certainly NOT run as fast as a DKR vehicle can. Not even with gold feathers. If you were to put B-K into DKR and race against the DKR characters in their vehicles, they would have no chance against them. And it has nothing to do with textures. Play the games side-by-side. If you don't have two N64's and two TV's, borrow them from somebody. I assure you that Banjo is definitely not as fast as any vehicle in DKR.
Removing a power-up from one game is not contradictory in the slightest meaning of the word. I don't know why you cannot understand this. Kazooie does not fly like a jet.
You're right, we didn't see a lot of jinjos flying in any of the game, but we did see some flying, flying that was definitely more like an airplane than a bird. I'm sure there are some stronger jinjos out there that could carry someone like Banjo.
That sounds good and everything when you completely disregard how Kazooie flies, but in reality it would not work unless they drastically changed her speed and flight capabilities.
I'm sorry lazy but your whole argument is flawed, you use examples to back up your points which don't even address the points that I've made. You have not listened to anything I have said, instead deciding to draw parallels from other games which are in no way similar to Kazooie's flight capabilities. You do not understand the difference between inherent abilities and power-ups. Kazooie's flight is an inherent ability, while Samus' space jump and Mario's raccoon suits are all power-ups. If you were to take Samus out of her suit and give her the power of flight, it would seem ridiculous and contradictory to what has already been established. Altering or taking away power-ups are in no way contradictory to the characters, and if you cannot understand this very simple concept then indeed, there is no point in continuing this debate with you.
Quote:OB1 you seem to be agreeing with me but you act like the debate is still going on. You agree that Jinjos would be okay since they can fly like planes. Kazooie can also fly like a plane (or more like a hang glider) yet you wouldn't want to see her in a video game as a... flying vehicle... which she already is?
Lazy, let me stop you right there. Jinjos fly like planes. Kazooie flaps upwards and can glide at a slight angle downwards. If Banjo Pilot was not a typical racing game and you started from say, the top of a mountain and had to race your way downwards, Kazooie might work. But she can't fly like a plane!
Quote:Then you say that you have no problem with being presented with a new controller setup or guide lines of controlling and using that character, and yet you disregard the idea of Kazooie being used in racing game? Why is it okay for Banjo and not Kazooie? Then again, you say that if the game presents the idea in a way that makes sense to the gameplayer, you can COMPLETELY alter the consistency (as with the Prime space jump boots) and it will be okay, because the game made it out that way? How was the Prime Space Jump presented to you matter-of-factly? It simply exists with the name of old power up that does something completely different. In essence, it's a totally new power up... yet it reuses the old name. While in Metroid Fusion, the Space Jump exists there as well but you can jump in to flight. It also exists in Zero Mission and allows you jump in to flight. Yet in Prime, it is completely different without any explanation... and you're okay with that?
Samus' abilities are not inherent like Kazooie's are. They completely rely upon upgrades to her armor, and just because in one game she doesn't have the same upgrades doesn't mean that she couldn't have different upgrades in a different game.
Quote:This is confusing me... you say that if you put a DKR track in a B~K game... it would take you longer to race through it... I don’t understand... how do you know that? Is the gravity different in B~K as compared to DKR? Since, I’m assuming you know, the in-game conversion of inches to feet is the same ratio in most Rare games, it's only the dimensions that change. Banjo at full speed will cover the same amount of ground as a DKR kart in the same amount of time. It only feels faster because one, the tracks in DKR are much smaller than any of the world's in either B~K game and the character models (in their vehicles) are larger than Banjo. This was done so that Rare could test out their new skinning method, where an entire texture map is wrapped around a skeleton, hence why the characters in DKR look seamless. In Goldeneye and Perfeck Dark, the textures and the poly models are huge to create scope and physical resonance, the props and sets are virtually 'life size' in terms of inches to feet. But Joanna will cover the same amount of ground as Banjo would or as the DKR hovercraft would in the same amount of time, if you could convert their scales (essentially making them all the same 'size').
Lazy I don't know when's the last time you played DKR and a Banjo game, but Banjo can most certainly NOT run as fast as a DKR vehicle can. Not even with gold feathers. If you were to put B-K into DKR and race against the DKR characters in their vehicles, they would have no chance against them. And it has nothing to do with textures. Play the games side-by-side. If you don't have two N64's and two TV's, borrow them from somebody. I assure you that Banjo is definitely not as fast as any vehicle in DKR.
Quote:You say that since we weren't presented with powerups that would allow flight in Mario Sunshine, it's not contradictory even though the past 3 games (spanning several years... a decade or more) allowed you to fly. However if I reverse the situation and present you with a game where an established character does something completely new and has never done it before, it would be... contradictory? We're not even talking about a completely new ability either... it's what Kazooie does best; Carry Banjo around and give him flight.
Removing a power-up from one game is not contradictory in the slightest meaning of the word. I don't know why you cannot understand this. Kazooie does not fly like a jet.
Quote:Then finally (I’ll stop it here because there are way too many directions to take this argument for me to prove my points), you say you have no problem with Jinjos acting like airplanes. I'm glad you walked in to this one, Jinjos never flied at any point in either B~K game. In fact, they stood still, silent (occasionally whistling and yelling 'over here!') until you touched them where upon they would be 'freed' and would disappear. The only "flight" they had, are when they were disappearing they encircled Banjo and yelled 'Jinjo!'. They would float, I’ll give you that, but they floated in the air just as any other item would when you grab it. Now it is true that at the end of B~K you had to 'fire' Jinjos like rockets at Grunty, but there is obviously no controlled flight (since you had to aim them) and they can only move through the air in short bursts. And yet knowing this (I’m assuming you played both games) you still state that Jinjos would make a better candidate for replacing the plane for Banjo in Banjo Pilot rather than Kazooie, who can not only move in short bursts but could also do barrel rolls, glide infinitely, dive and climb at break-neck speeds and do all of this while carrying a 250 pound bear. Now which is more contradicting?
You're right, we didn't see a lot of jinjos flying in any of the game, but we did see some flying, flying that was definitely more like an airplane than a bird. I'm sure there are some stronger jinjos out there that could carry someone like Banjo.
Quote:Let me give you an example of how it would work.
The race is starting, the words "Get Ready!" appear on the screen and we know from DKR that you press the gas when the "get Ready" is almost completely invisible. You do so and Kazooie yells out "BREEEE!" and you're off in a whirl of red feathers. Banjo gives out his trademark "Duh-huh!" as the speed boost dies down and you regain control of Kazooie. You're moving down a straight away now and Kazooie is gliding, occasionally flapping her arms. In front of you, you see a fence and you need to nose up before you hit the wall. Nosing up, you bring Kazooie's head and shoulders up to air brake but you don’t MOVE up. You need to climb, so you tap your gas button and Kazooie thrusts her wings up and down once. A glittering red feather falls from her butt. But this is only an animation since you don’t actually grab red feathers in the game to continue you’re climbing. The animation of the red feather falling is only there to make reference to other B~K games. A moment of "Oh I remember that!" like all great Nintendo games that are heavily basted in memorabilia and to evoke a sense of tradition over time.
As you climb upwards you see the feathers fall and you have cleared the fence with ease. Kazooie maintains her speed and height and glides effortlessly, allowing the player to focus on firing eggs from Kazooie's mouth at any racers that may have gotten ahead of them. A simple targeting 'scope' or reticule is used to show you the path that the fired egg will take. As you take a mild turn, tapping your air or holding down your brakes to turn even more in either direction, you reach another wall; but this time there is a cave directly beneath the wall. You nose down and hold the gas button down causing Kazooie to bring her wings in. She is now a missile and falls straight down - But before you hit the bottom of the cave, you let go of the gas button and nose up, making Kazooie's wings stretch out and giving you a parachute to slow yourself down to a controllable speed.
A racer is directly behind you, and you have egg ammo to spare. Once you clear the cave you double tap the air brakes while nosing up. Kazooie lets out a gagging "Kaw!" from the jolt and thrusts her wings downward shooting her straight up and then retracts them for a split second to fall backwards. Now you are behind the racer who was behind you and you have performed a loop. You quickly take aim by holding down the fire button (let's say, in the case of this game being on the GBA, firing weapons will be done by using the select button), which allows you to home in on your target, and release. Successfully shooting down the other racer briefly, but enough to get you more distance between you and the other racer.
As you can see the idea works fine, in theory. And it would have worked in Banjo Pilot except for the memory issues. All those extra animations and sound effects would have bogged down the memory so the idea of a much more simple plane was used that can be color swapped for each racing character.
That sounds good and everything when you completely disregard how Kazooie flies, but in reality it would not work unless they drastically changed her speed and flight capabilities.
Quote:There is absolutely no point in continuing this debate unless you can provide some kind of concrete angle on it. All of the points that you made were contradictory and had no purpose, in fact, even without knowing your character as a person who likes to argue over anything, I would have to say that by your posts in this thread alone I would have believed you to be that way. You said time and again that being presented with a completely new idea doesn't bother you. You said that a character of extreme limitations would still be a good candidate for controlled flight in a racing genre. You said that if the new idea is presented to you logically, you will completely accept it (Prime space jump) and basically... you agreed with everything I said, and yet you still want to argue. I do not understand at all.
I'm sorry lazy but your whole argument is flawed, you use examples to back up your points which don't even address the points that I've made. You have not listened to anything I have said, instead deciding to draw parallels from other games which are in no way similar to Kazooie's flight capabilities. You do not understand the difference between inherent abilities and power-ups. Kazooie's flight is an inherent ability, while Samus' space jump and Mario's raccoon suits are all power-ups. If you were to take Samus out of her suit and give her the power of flight, it would seem ridiculous and contradictory to what has already been established. Altering or taking away power-ups are in no way contradictory to the characters, and if you cannot understand this very simple concept then indeed, there is no point in continuing this debate with you.
29th April 2004, 10:55 AM
Quote:None of the Nintendo party/racing/fighting games contradict the abilities or limits of the characters. Mario still runs about the same speed, and all of the characters have the same limits that they've always had. Your mushroom example is a very poor one; who's to say that mushrooms can't have a different effect on vehicles? Like ABF said, Captain Falcon never walked in the F-Zero games. Just because Kirby gains powers in a different way doesn't change the fact that he can gain new abilities. Making Kazooie as fast a jet would be ridiculous unless they took the time to explain why she's so much faster than before. Like I said, it would be dumb and pointless. Much like your posts.
You weaken your arguements here, OB1. You say that it's not okay in some cases but it is in others? So it's fine to have Kirby always have a hammer and sword, but not fine for Kazooie to have a permanant speed boost? That is NOT logical, and is a blatant flaw in your arguement...
Quote:A fictional character can be WHATEVER the game designer wants it to be. Yoshi's abilities can change depending on the game, as can Link's, Mario's and yes, even Banjo. Who, for example, in Banjo Pilot, is flying a PLANE which never existed at any time in any Banjo Game! It was from a RACING game: eg: a new gameplay element using existing characters. Why couldn't Conker get out of his car and use his frying pan or twirly tail? why couldn't Banjo shoot eggs at other players? it's called marketablity. If BANJO is in a game, one would assume that KAZOOIE should be around. But she wasn't even mentioned in DKR since it wasn't just about Banjo, it was about a cast of many different characters that all had to convert to a singular playing paradigm. But Banjo Pilot has the ability to borrow from the BK games heavily since the entire game is based on the B~K universe to which it would be a logical leap to ask why Banjo rides in a plane instead of using Kazooie who would act exactly like the plane but have the sprites to make it look like Kazooie.
As I said, Nintendo does do this... after all, play SMB3 and then SML2! In SML2 Mario runs significantly slower... OB1, how do you explain the difference here in run speed? For Mario 64 (which is also slower than Mario 1 or 3) you can say something about the differences in 3D, but between 2d platformers... it's not so bad that it's a blatant flaw or something, and it's explained by differing gameplay systems, but still... it is something that should be considered. Companies can and do do things like this, especially when changing genre (like 2d to 3d or platformer to racing).
Look, I don't like the idea of Banjo riding Kazooie in a racing game. I think it'd require a stupid story explanation -- Kazooie would have to have some special item that gives her permanant extra speed (to not break and that'd be kind of dumb. And anyway I just like mini planes more! But to be consistent, I have to say that if they really wanted to they could.
But I'd play as the mini-plane.
Oh, about Kazooie's speed. OB1, you constantly call her 'very slow'. Well, I wasn't exactly impressed by the blinding speeds in DKR! If this was that speed, Kazooie just might be able to catch up... sure, there're still major problems because it probably isn't fast enough and you need to deal with some special powerup to give her extra speed that doesn't require mashing a button the whole time you play the game, but I just wanted to say that kart racers aren't super fast speed games anyway.
Quote:Flying with his ears is not out of character for Bugs because it is in line with Loony Toons physics (seriously) and uses his pre-existing ears to do something that makes perfect sense in that world.
I know, this may sound absurd, but there is actual cartoon logic here. I don't expect you to understand it immediately, but what I'm saying is true.
I remember this one WWII Bugs Bunny cartoon where he's in a plane (a bomber, but on a base in the US) with this gremlin thing... in the end they head for the ground in a unstoppable dive straight down, and a foot above the ground the plane runs out of fuel and stops dead... :D
Quote:And you babies cried about it and made a huge debate of it. So huge, and so incredibly stupid, that it surpasses anything I have debated ABF on. Seriously.
Sorry if I disbelieve you, but you say this every single time... I think you just always think that the CURRENT one is the worst. :)
Quote:For that matter, concerning limitations and abilities, SSB again. Link and Samus should NOT be on even footing, but they are PUT on even footing and we totally accept it, because we just want to have FUN, not analyze everything to the nth degree. So what if TECHNICALLY a cheap metal and wood shield could never actually protect against a missile, or a bow being no match for an energy gun. It's all in good fun!
This backs up what I said above -- what about differences between games? OB1 you can (rightly) ignore powerup differences, but speed, etc? I mean... okay, so in Mario 64 Mario has gymnastics and doesn't before... but that actually makes sense, since the first Mario game with them was '94's DK'94 and there wasn't another Mario game after that (Yoshi's Island isn't Mario!) until Mario 64...
But the speed differences between the other games? Oh, sure, the Mario series has no continuity or anything and it's done because each game's engine runs a bit different, so it's not exactly a 'problem'. Just a point I want to raise. :) I could also talk about hitpoints, or Zelda 2, or plenty of other things, but one example is enough really...
As for SSB, DJ, you're absolutely right about them levelling things out to even it. And OB1, they DO do more than just Kirby for big changes -- look at the Shields! In their real games noone has a magical shield around them...
29th April 2004, 11:34 AM
OB1 you are disregarding my factual statements taken from game designer books at Fullsail. But it doesn't matter. if you're not going to acknowledge factual information then the debate is certainly over.
Kazooie doesn't need to fly like a jet, she needs to fly like a DKR plane, which she already does. I just played DKR and the planes actually move up and down slower than Kazooie can, she can dive bomb in any direction, including straight down. She did that by wrapping her wings around herself and shooting like a rocket, that could be her boost animation. You say her degree of movement is only slight, when in fact it's more precise than the planes. Which is logical since in B~K you need excellent control over her flight to land on platforms without falling, or dying.
D-Pad aim's flight direction
A Button; Tap to flap wings sending Kazooie up or down quickly depending on direction. Hold to glide, steer with D-pad.
B button could be easily made in to an air brake.
R can be tilt for tighter turning. Double tap R; while nosing up to loop, while pressing left or right to barrel roll. Hold R and B to turn quickly.
L Eggs; Hold to get a target, release to fire. Tap to fire without target.
To upgrade eggs, collect the same color balloon up to 3 times.
Red/yellow Ballons:
Normal Blue Egg. Fires in a straight line.
Flame Egg. Homes in on target.
Nest Egg. Fire 10 Normal Blue eggs.
Yellow/purple balloons
Green Glowing Egg. 3 Second Sheild
Blue Glowing Egg. 5 second Shield
Purple Glowing Egg. 10 second Shield
Green/brown balloons
Black Egg. Kazooie passes gas and leaves a cloud behind her.
Spiked Egg. Kazooie leaves a proximity mine behind her.
The Smoking Egg. Kazooie leaves a rotten egg that explodes on contact and immobolizes them temporarily.
Blue/yellow balloons
Gold Egg. the smallest boost, let go of gas to get the most of it.
Jeweled Egg. Larger boost, let go of gas for the best effect.
Clockwork Kazooie Egg. A mechanical kazooie grabs on to Banjo and gives B~K a 3 second jet booster.
Select; Change camera
As you can see, with only slight tweaking, Kazooie is now an exact duplicate of the plane without altering any of her abilities or character. Whether you agree or not, I have proven that Kazooie would be a fine replacement for the DKR plane. One of the teachers at Fullsail who teaches character modeling and interaction completely agrees with me, she also loves DKR and B~K, and would love to see Kazooie instead of the plane. Now if someone more educated than you and I put together on the topic of character design and player interaction says i'm right, then you have to stop and think.
You should also notice, OB1, that no one else is posting in this thread other than DJ. because everyone at this board knows that you simply argue for no reason, even when presented with factual data and being proven wrong you continue to argue just for the sake of arguing. Because of that... no one wants to have a REAL debate as long as you're there, because you simply tell everyone you're right without proving anything. I'm not trying to dog you, this is just what i've noticed from this thread alone, as if i was a newbie.
This debate is over unless you can provide concrete factual data that Kazooie cannot act like a plane in DKR. (yes, this is a trick question, of course Kazooie can act like anything, she even turns in to a torpedo for God's sake, all i'm doing now is trying to push you further to make you look even more rediculous, no offence. But hopefully it will help you realize how impossible you are to have a friendly debate where opinions are shared, not forced)
Kazooie doesn't need to fly like a jet, she needs to fly like a DKR plane, which she already does. I just played DKR and the planes actually move up and down slower than Kazooie can, she can dive bomb in any direction, including straight down. She did that by wrapping her wings around herself and shooting like a rocket, that could be her boost animation. You say her degree of movement is only slight, when in fact it's more precise than the planes. Which is logical since in B~K you need excellent control over her flight to land on platforms without falling, or dying.
D-Pad aim's flight direction
A Button; Tap to flap wings sending Kazooie up or down quickly depending on direction. Hold to glide, steer with D-pad.
B button could be easily made in to an air brake.
R can be tilt for tighter turning. Double tap R; while nosing up to loop, while pressing left or right to barrel roll. Hold R and B to turn quickly.
L Eggs; Hold to get a target, release to fire. Tap to fire without target.
To upgrade eggs, collect the same color balloon up to 3 times.
Red/yellow Ballons:
Normal Blue Egg. Fires in a straight line.
Flame Egg. Homes in on target.
Nest Egg. Fire 10 Normal Blue eggs.
Yellow/purple balloons
Green Glowing Egg. 3 Second Sheild
Blue Glowing Egg. 5 second Shield
Purple Glowing Egg. 10 second Shield
Green/brown balloons
Black Egg. Kazooie passes gas and leaves a cloud behind her.
Spiked Egg. Kazooie leaves a proximity mine behind her.
The Smoking Egg. Kazooie leaves a rotten egg that explodes on contact and immobolizes them temporarily.
Blue/yellow balloons
Gold Egg. the smallest boost, let go of gas to get the most of it.
Jeweled Egg. Larger boost, let go of gas for the best effect.
Clockwork Kazooie Egg. A mechanical kazooie grabs on to Banjo and gives B~K a 3 second jet booster.
Select; Change camera
As you can see, with only slight tweaking, Kazooie is now an exact duplicate of the plane without altering any of her abilities or character. Whether you agree or not, I have proven that Kazooie would be a fine replacement for the DKR plane. One of the teachers at Fullsail who teaches character modeling and interaction completely agrees with me, she also loves DKR and B~K, and would love to see Kazooie instead of the plane. Now if someone more educated than you and I put together on the topic of character design and player interaction says i'm right, then you have to stop and think.
You should also notice, OB1, that no one else is posting in this thread other than DJ. because everyone at this board knows that you simply argue for no reason, even when presented with factual data and being proven wrong you continue to argue just for the sake of arguing. Because of that... no one wants to have a REAL debate as long as you're there, because you simply tell everyone you're right without proving anything. I'm not trying to dog you, this is just what i've noticed from this thread alone, as if i was a newbie.
This debate is over unless you can provide concrete factual data that Kazooie cannot act like a plane in DKR. (yes, this is a trick question, of course Kazooie can act like anything, she even turns in to a torpedo for God's sake, all i'm doing now is trying to push you further to make you look even more rediculous, no offence. But hopefully it will help you realize how impossible you are to have a friendly debate where opinions are shared, not forced)
29th April 2004, 12:00 PM
I'm not talking about if Kazooie flies like a plane or a helicopter because I don't care much. :) And I have no idea how Kazooie flies anyway, I don't pay attention to that...
29th April 2004, 12:07 PM
ABF Wrote:]You weaken your arguements here, OB1. You say that it's not okay in some cases but it is in others? So it's fine to have Kirby always have a hammer and sword, but not fine for Kazooie to have a permanant speed boost? That is NOT logical, and is a blatant flaw in your arguement...
There is nothing flawed with that logic. Kirby is still using the same powers while Kazooie is never fast or jet-like. You could give her constant speed boosts, but those boosts shoot you off in one, uncontrollable direction. If there were some magical feather that let her fly really fast and like an airplane then that would be a different story.
Quote:As I said, Nintendo does do this... after all, play SMB3 and then SML2! In SML2 Mario runs significantly slower... OB1, how do you explain the difference here in run speed? For Mario 64 (which is also slower than Mario 1 or 3) you can say something about the differences in 3D, but between 2d platformers... it's not so bad that it's a blatant flaw or something, and it's explained by differing gameplay systems, but still... it is something that should be considered. Companies can and do do things like this, especially when changing genre (like 2d to 3d or platformer to racing).There is no significant difference in speed between the Mario games. The difference in speed DJ and lazy are suggesting for Kazooie would be incredible, more akin to the difference of Mario and Sonic.
Quote:Look, I don't like the idea of Banjo riding Kazooie in a racing game. I think it'd require a stupid story explanation -- Kazooie would have to have some special item that gives her permanant extra speed (to not break and that'd be kind of dumb. And anyway I just like mini planes more! But to be consistent, I have to say that if they really wanted to they could.They could, and I said that. But just like you said they'd have to come up with a dumb explanation and it would really be pointless.
But I'd play as the mini-plane.
Quote:Oh, about Kazooie's speed. OB1, you constantly call her 'very slow'. Well, I wasn't exactly impressed by the blinding speeds in DKR! If this was that speed, Kazooie just might be able to catch up... sure, there're still major problems because it probably isn't fast enough and you need to deal with some special powerup to give her extra speed that doesn't require mashing a button the whole time you play the game, but I just wanted to say that kart racers aren't super fast speed games anyway.
No they're not super fast, but they're several times faster than Banjo-Kazooie. B-K is slow even for a platformer, so comparing it to even the slowest of racing games is foolish.
Quote:I remember this one WWII Bugs Bunny cartoon where he's in a plane (a bomber, but on a base in the US) with this gremlin thing... in the end they head for the ground in a unstoppable dive straight down, and a foot above the ground the plane runs out of fuel and stops dead...
Yup, those are very typical Loony Toons physics. If a plane has no gas, it doesn't crash, it just stops mid-air. If you don't understand what gravity is, it won't affect you. All great stuff, but if you know your Loony Toons it's surprisingly consistent. It seems like mad randomness but the creators did strive for consistency.
Quote:Sorry if I disbelieve you, but you say this every single time... I think you just always think that the CURRENT one is the worst.
Well that's because you get worse and worse with each debate. :p
Seriously, even you have to admit that this debate is inanely stupid.
Quote:This backs up what I said above -- what about differences between games? OB1 you can (rightly) ignore powerup differences, but speed, etc? I mean... okay, so in Mario 64 Mario has gymnastics and doesn't before... but that actually makes sense, since the first Mario game with them was '94's DK'94 and there wasn't another Mario game after that (Yoshi's Island isn't Mario!) until Mario 64...Mario does run slightly faster in the 2D games than in the 3D ones, but it's nothing inconsistent. Seriously, the man has gotten old. He can't run as fast as he used to be able to.
But the speed differences between the other games? Oh, sure, the Mario series has no continuity or anything and it's done because each game's engine runs a bit different, so it's not exactly a 'problem'. Just a point I want to raise. I could also talk about hitpoints, or Zelda 2, or plenty of other things, but one example is enough really...
Quote:As for SSB, DJ, you're absolutely right about them levelling things out to even it. And OB1, they DO do more than just Kirby for big changes -- look at the Shields! In their real games noone has a magical shield around them...
All of the characters in SSB have those orb shields, so it's natural to assume that that's what they were given before the fight.
lazy Wrote:OB1 you are disregarding my factual statements taken from game designer books at Fullsail. But it doesn't matter. if you're not going to acknowledge factual information then the debate is certainly over.Your "factual" information? All you've done in this debate is make terrible comparisons and ignore facts such as how much faster the vehicles in DKR are than Banjo-Kazooie. If this is what you've learned in Fullsail then I suggest you run over there right now and demand a refund for your tuition.
Quote:Kazooie doesn't need to fly like a jet, she needs to fly like a DKR plane, which she already does. I just played DKR and the planes actually move up and down slower than Kazooie can, she can dive bomb in any direction, including straight down. She did that by wrapping her wings around herself and shooting like a rocket, that could be her boost animation. You say her degree of movement is only slight, when in fact it's more precise than the planes. Which is logical since in B~K you need excellent control over her flight to land on platforms without falling, or dying.Again this is you not paying attention to me.
I said that Kazooie's movement is too precise for a racing game. Part of the challenge in a good racing game is handling your craft. The fact that Kazooie is easier to handle proves my point. She was made to fly in a platformer and it would not work in a racing game without a great change of her abilities and some explanation of that change.
Quote:D-Pad aim's flight directionAn "exact duplicate", eh? This right here is proof of how poor your argument in this debate is. An exact duplicate would mean that Kazooie would control just like a plane (funny how planes don't flap upwards, and that there is no acceleration button), and have the same speed as a DKR plane, which she most certainly does not.
A Button; Tap to flap wings sending Kazooie up or down quickly depending on direction. Hold to glide, steer with D-pad.
B button could be easily made in to an air brake.
R can be tilt for tighter turning. Double tap R; while nosing up to loop, while pressing left or right to barrel roll. Hold R and B to turn quickly.
L Eggs; Hold to get a target, release to fire. Tap to fire without target.
To upgrade eggs, collect the same color balloon up to 3 times.
Red/yellow Ballons:
Normal Blue Egg. Fires in a straight line.
Flame Egg. Homes in on target.
Nest Egg. Fire 10 Normal Blue eggs.
Yellow/purple balloons
Green Glowing Egg. 3 Second Sheild
Blue Glowing Egg. 5 second Shield
Purple Glowing Egg. 10 second Shield
Green/brown balloons
Black Egg. Kazooie passes gas and leaves a cloud behind her.
Spiked Egg. Kazooie leaves a proximity mine behind her.
The Smoking Egg. Kazooie leaves a rotten egg that explodes on contact and immobolizes them temporarily.
Blue/yellow balloons
Gold Egg. the smallest boost, let go of gas to get the most of it.
Jeweled Egg. Larger boost, let go of gas for the best effect.
Clockwork Kazooie Egg. A mechanical kazooie grabs on to Banjo and gives B~K a 3 second jet booster.
Select; Change camera
As you can see, with only slight tweaking, Kazooie is now an exact duplicate of the plane without altering any of her abilities or character. Whether you agree or not, I have proven that Kazooie would be a fine replacement for the DKR plane.
Quote:One of the teachers at Fullsail who teaches character modeling and interaction completely agrees with me, she also loves DKR and B~K, and would love to see Kazooie instead of the plane. Now if someone more educated than you and I put together on the topic of character design and player interaction says i'm right, then you have to stop and think.Uh-huh, and how in-depth was this discussion with your teacher? Forgive me for not believing you but I don't think this teacher has all of the facts regarding this debate and has put a lot of thought into it.
And I'm curious, which games has this teacher worked on?
Quote:You should also notice, OB1, that no one else is posting in this thread other than DJ. because everyone at this board knows that you simply argue for no reason, even when presented with factual data and being proven wrong you continue to argue just for the sake of arguing. Because of that... no one wants to have a REAL debate as long as you're there, because you simply tell everyone you're right without proving anything. I'm not trying to dog you, this is just what i've noticed from this thread alone, as if i was a newbie.There are three other people besides me who get into debates at Tendo City. ABF, who gets into debates with everyone; Weltall, who mainly gets into political debates with ABF; and DJ, who debates mostly with me once in a while but never stays to finish it.
You have no facts to back up your debates, much like most people I debate with at this place rarely ever do. You've presented some fine ideas but have ignored some very important facts such as the speed of Kazooie, and have made up others (DKR not being faster than B-K). Come back to me when you have something more to back up your arguments with.
Quote:This debate is over unless you can provide concrete factual data that Kazooie cannot act like a plane in DKR. (yes, this is a trick question, of course Kazooie can act like anything, she even turns in to a torpedo for God's sake, all i'm doing now is trying to push you further to make you look even more rediculous, no offence. But hopefully it will help you realize how impossible you are to have a friendly debate where opinions are shared, not forced)If you want I can make some videos comparing Kazooie flying through a level of Banjo-Tooie and Banjo flying a plane in DKR.
How about this, since you're so eager for me to prove you wrong yet unable to prove your own self right, why don't you make a video showing Banjo-Kazooie fly as fast as any vehicle in DKR, and we'll let the people here judge for themselves which is faster. And remember that Kazooie's rocket blast move (whatever it's called) does not give you precision and flying through a course like that would make for a terrible racing game.
29th April 2004, 12:42 PM
Quote:There is nothing flawed with that logic. Kirby is still using the same powers while Kazooie is never fast or jet-like. You could give her constant speed boosts, but those boosts shoot you off in one, uncontrollable direction. If there were some magical feather that let her fly really fast and like an airplane then that would be a different story.
Yeah, it's not quite what Kazooie can do. But Kirby can't have two powers at the same time either, in any of his games... and has never had the inhale attack and a special at the same time anywhere other than SSB...
But you're right about how in B-K/T the boost goes in one direction. And that Kazooie can hover much better than a plane. But you know what? They make racing games with more than one kind of vehicle, so as long as they make it balance out overall that's okay...
Quote:There is no significant difference in speed between the Mario games. The difference in speed DJ and lazy are suggesting for Kazooie would be incredible, more akin to the difference of Mario and Sonic.
Mario can actually run at a good clip in some of those games... okay it's not Sonic speeds, but it's not slow. :)
And DKR isn't fast. Oh, it's faster, but fast? No. Sure, B-K/T aren't exactly quick-moving platformers, but as you say DKR's a slow racing game...
Quote:Yup, those are very typical Loony Toons physics. If a plane has no gas, it doesn't crash, it just stops mid-air. If you don't understand what gravity is, it won't affect you. All great stuff, but if you know your Loony Toons it's surprisingly consistent. It seems like mad randomness but the creators did strive for consistency.
True. Like how people never fall until they look down.
Quote:Mario does run slightly faster in the 2D games than in the 3D ones, but it's nothing inconsistent. Seriously, the man has gotten old. He can't run as fast as he used to be able to.
That's a unique explanation... :D
But how about Zelda 2? Or why Mario gets a health meter in Mario 64 instead of shrinking? Or related to Mario 64, how come in Mario 64 being in water heals you when you go underwater and then above but in Sunshine that is not true? Not to mention how suddenly in 64 Mario gains the ability to drown... :) (if in the old ones they'd put a snorkel or something on him it'd explain it, but they didn't...)
Of course for this the alternative isn't much better... a silly plot device to explain away necessities. Like how Samus always loses her stuff between games, or how Link loses his stuff between games (that use the same Links!), etc, etc...
Fine, so I'm undermining my case by saying how common it is to break your serieses established laws. Oh well. But it does seem to be that serieses make a extremely common practice of nonsensical story decisions to make the gameplay better (so you don't start super-powerful, etc)... they could do it for flying Kazooie too, it wouldn't be much worse than any of the things I mentioned here...
Quote:Well that's because you get worse and worse with each debate.
Seriously, even you have to admit that this debate is inanely stupid.
It doesn't seem that much worse than usual... from my view better in some ways because it's not just me arguing with you... :)
Quote:All of the characters in SSB have those orb shields, so it's natural to assume that that's what they were given before the fight.
Unless you say they're animated dolls or something based on that toybox in the intro of the first game... with super-special shields!
Quote:They could, and I said that. But just like you said they'd have to come up with a dumb explanation and it would really be pointless.
What it really comes down to is if you want to ride Kazooie in a racing game... they could do it if they wanted to. But I agree with you, obviously, on the matter. :)
Quote:An "exact duplicate", eh? This right here is proof of how poor your argument in this debate is. An exact duplicate would mean that Kazooie would control just like a plane (funny how planes don't flap upwards, and that there is no acceleration button), and have the same speed as a DKR plane, which she most certainly does not.
Hmm... yeah, in B-T Kazooie accelerates by hitting the button and going upwards. You're right, that's the opposite of a plane, which accelerates downwards and decellerates upwards. And Kazooie can hover kind of like a helicopter. So obviously she would be a different flying experience... honestly it could be annoying if you had to use boost -- acclerate in a cave, go up and hit the roof in front of a tunnel exit? You can't have her accelerate up in a boost as the main form of acceleration in a racing game, you're right about that. It just would not work and would not be fun to have to consantly hit the button.
If it was auto, with a normal racing 'hold button to acclerate'... if she accelerated UP instead of forward or forward and a bit down, like a real plane... as I said, that would just not work! You'd need to come up with some way of having her accelerate forwards, instead of up, and of adding brakes... but does that work with a BIRD? Birds accelerate by flapping... it could, I guess. Just have normal flapping be a hover/straight forward kind instead of up -- it wouldn't be too hard to imagine her flying like a real bird, would it? Especially if you gave her some powerup so that she doesn't have to use the feathers to accelerate up, which is why she accelerates in the direction she does...
So, I'd say, if you really wanted it you could solve it with a stupid "she got a super-feather!" explanation, and it'd be plausible, mostly. You'd still have issues, like why she suddenly controls more like a bird and doesn't have the same movement (as you say you'd have to alter, in addition to the acceleration and decelleration and speed, the turning...)... I don't know how to easily explain away those things, Lazy. I'm not completely agreeing with OB1, but those are real issues that you would have to deal with if you don't want a contradiction.
(Now, of course, I just say again that you can create games that are contradictions, and it happens all the time, but it's better when you don't.)
Banjo-Tooie was a rare exception to that rule that sequels do stupid stuff to make the game easier to make (so you don't start with all the upgrades), though, so in future Banjo games at least they should TRY to keep it plausible...
29th April 2004, 12:50 PM
OB1 the debate is over. You lost. I'm not going to re-explain everything in terms you can understand because you simply dont have the education for it. And again, you only want to argue instead of debate. You're making nothing but contradictory statements with absolutely no basis and you're doing it just to be spiteful, that in itself is insanely immature for someone who says that he prides himself on his abilities to debate. In fact, I could get someone from the development team who worked on DKR and B~k to tell you up front that Kazooie would be fine as a DKR plane, but would require 3 or 4 times as much memory as the plane, (not to mention that each character would be riding a different creature with animations and so forth), so it would not be used on a GBA game. But it would be used in the now cancelled Donkey Kong Racing where a bee, an ostridge, a rhino and a swordfish all move and control the same and are about the same speed. If a rhino can be a car, than a bird can be a plane. And even with that information, you still would argue.
29th April 2004, 1:02 PM
Lazy, the question isn't if it'd be possible to do Kazooie as a plane, but whether it'd make sense... the two issues I can think of are that she's a bird and birds don't fly like planes and that the controls and mechanics in B-K/T are quite different from a plane, as I say in my last post.
29th April 2004, 1:22 PM
But why is that an issue? Kazooie can become a torpedo underwater and act like a torpedo by spinning her tail feathers like a propeller, it makes absolutely no sense... so why cant she be used as a plane which she already is (a gliding mechanism with forward thrust)?
I just realized something, OB1 is talking about animation of the character, not controls or programing. If Kazooie would be used as a plane in Banjo Pilot and used her tail feathers as she does when in torpedo mode to act as a rear plane propeller, then would it be acceptable to you OB1 that Kazooie could act as a plane does?
I just realized something, OB1 is talking about animation of the character, not controls or programing. If Kazooie would be used as a plane in Banjo Pilot and used her tail feathers as she does when in torpedo mode to act as a rear plane propeller, then would it be acceptable to you OB1 that Kazooie could act as a plane does?
29th April 2004, 1:30 PM
If you read my post (the long one, in particular), did I say she couldn't?
No, I said that there are some issues. I also said that while games admittedly do very often ignore the rules previous games in a series set down, it's best when they stick to them as much as possible. Kazooie, you must admit, does not control like a plane in B-K.
And as I said you could change that so that she does, but it still leaves you with issues about how you explain it... because I'm not satisfied with "It Just Is" anymore. That was okay back when Zelda 2 came out, but these days they should at least make an attempt...
For instance, they should make it more clear why after every game Mega Man loses his stuff. Do they disarm him after each mission in the hopes that he won't have to do it again? That's silly. X has such a ... um, intricate... storyline but this is dropped... at least Metroid Prime explained it! :)
It would just be annoying in a way if for no apparent reason Kazooie suddenly controlled completely differently. You do need to look at how she controls in the platformers... and if as I (and OB1) said that does not work for a racing game you should try for something better than 'It Just Is'. Though I don't think there IS any better way to change such a thing, unfortunately...
No, I said that there are some issues. I also said that while games admittedly do very often ignore the rules previous games in a series set down, it's best when they stick to them as much as possible. Kazooie, you must admit, does not control like a plane in B-K.
And as I said you could change that so that she does, but it still leaves you with issues about how you explain it... because I'm not satisfied with "It Just Is" anymore. That was okay back when Zelda 2 came out, but these days they should at least make an attempt...
For instance, they should make it more clear why after every game Mega Man loses his stuff. Do they disarm him after each mission in the hopes that he won't have to do it again? That's silly. X has such a ... um, intricate... storyline but this is dropped... at least Metroid Prime explained it! :)
It would just be annoying in a way if for no apparent reason Kazooie suddenly controlled completely differently. You do need to look at how she controls in the platformers... and if as I (and OB1) said that does not work for a racing game you should try for something better than 'It Just Is'. Though I don't think there IS any better way to change such a thing, unfortunately...
29th April 2004, 1:43 PM
Quote:It would just be annoying in a way if for no apparent reason Kazooie suddenly controlled completely differently. You do need to look at how she controls in the platformers... and if as I (and OB1) said that does not work for a racing game you should try for something better than 'It Just Is'.
The whole basis of racing games like that is "It Just Is". I mean, why are they racing anyway? It's a non-issue, in my opinion, and anything that contradicticts what has been established in the real games should be also.
29th April 2004, 1:47 PM
Hmm... I didn't mean story or something, I meant game mechanics... "It Just Is" as in "In this racing game Kazooie controls like a plane and not a helicopter or Kazooie-B-T because It Just Is."
29th April 2004, 2:09 PM
No, OB1 is just changing his argument to whatever you haven't utterly smashed apart with your SUPERIOR EDUCATION IN THE MATTER. OB1, lazy's opinion IS more valid and correct than yours and it's SOLEY because he's taken more game design classes than you.
OB1, first you say that items mean nothing, then you go on to say that Samus' armor is a DIFFERENT KIND of item and that it can't be removed suddenly. They DID do that, and gave her a stun gun and good jumping abilities without the suit. Yeesh, why are SOME items completely okay to change but OTHERS not? Whether it's a part of their body or not is completely irrelevent. Once something's behavior has been established, as you put it, it can't be suddenly changed with no explanation. Your double standard is painfully obvious. While it's FINE for something like a koopa shell to suddenly out of NOWHERE be a skateboard that turns mario invincible, you say it's completely different for Mario himself to suddenly, from nowhere, be able to dig underground like a mole. These are BOTH the SAME THINGS. Sure, you can say "well those are different shells", but it would be wrong to use such a defense as that just to keep your double standard intact. Fact is, the shell's behavior has been established for some time and they changed it completely out of the blue in an unexpected way. I LOVED that they did that. The fact that they are "different shells" as one could put it is totally irrelevent. It's that we EXPECTED them to act one way based on previous experience and they acted a totally unexpected way that is important. It's what WE, the PLAYERS are thinking that matters.
Also, you completely failed to address ABF's VERY good point on the bubble shield. Aside from Kirby, not a single other character has this ability or anything even remotely close. It's not an item at all, it's a POWER generated via their BODIES. Yoshi uses an egg instead, everyone else uses an orb of power. You seem totally okay with this. Since when does Yoshi for example hide INSIDE an egg to protect him from attacks? I'll go ahead and oblige you on your silly double standard between items and characters and remind you that Yoshi MAKES those eggs himself.
You may at this point say the same silly thing you said about Captain Falcon "Well, you never saw him outside the car before" would transform into "you don't know his eggs couldn't do that before!". Mind you, your very argument here defeats you. If you can argue that there was no evidence Captain Falcon or Yoshi COULDN'T do those things, then I can just as easily point out there's no evidence at all that Kazooie CAN'T fly like a Diddy Kong Racing plane. As I've said again and again, Kazooie is known for being able to fly, she's known for spitting eggs, and known for being on the back of a bear. However, she is NOT known for being slow. You may have noticed this as an aside in those two games, but it's CERTAINLY not a trademark quality of the bird.
And yes, you say "this is the stupidest thing ever" and "You have really disappointed me" every SINGLE time someone, anyone, disagrees with you. It's not just rude, it's a blatent bit of self deception. You know as well as anyone that the probability of each argument ACTUALLY being worse than the last, each and every time, is just too low to be true. Also, if I have "completely dissappointed you" or "you have lost all respect for me" the last time, then how can it happen AGAIN? Did I do something amazing that GAINED your respect between arguments or something? In effect, where I previously thought you had 0 respect from me the entire time, I suddenly found out you had some respect for me for a while before this, and so I'm actually FLATTERED :D (kidding, I honestly don't care what you think about me at this point). Honestly, you need to learn some manners and common decency. You know why we never get mad at lazy, even with those VERY off color remarks? It's because he manages to convey VERY well an aura of respect for our opinions and we respect him back for it. You haven't managed to do that for ANYONE in a LONG time.
Your comments that "not a single person here has any debate skills except me" proves your egotism and outright rudeness. Now, look I"m not trying to insult you, well maybe a little, but the fact is you never once consider even the possibility that it's not that everyone here is a moron, but perhaps that you are in fact very bad at recognizing valid points when they go against what you think. Try and at least consider that you might be wrong. It is NOT a sign of weakness to admit defeat! It's NOT!
I don't claim to be perfect. I'm in this debate that for all intents and purposes has been over for some time after all. However, you need to acknowledge your own lack of social graces you know? Seriously, if you can respond to this VERY harsh assesment by me without completely getting angry, without ANY sort of attack, maybe just by saying "I see you have issues with me, I won't respond to your attacks, but rather just step out", it would show a HUGE improvement.
And just to finish up, games always do completely unexpected things to their characters all the time, and character or item, it's irrelevent. The important bit is what we EXPECT them to do and how their behaviors and abilities match up. It's a good thing. There's an entire series that shares ONLY the name in common with the others, and the only connection IS the side items and some creatures. I call it "Final Fantasy". The entire theme, world, story, characters, and ability systems (and sometimes the battle system itself) is different in each game. In fact, FFX-2, where it was actually using the same world and some characters, was actually a huge CHANGE from the norm. It worked out though. I wouldn't want to be limited in what I can do as a designer just because someone doesn't think a character or item or world or whatever (it's all the same, your argument has been done to death on many things, and when it's disregarded magic happens, but when the developers try too much to please the existing fans, stagnation happens, see Street Fighter) can do something.
OB1, open up your imagination. I still think that deep down you are fully aware of how cool it would be to fly as our favorite orange freak bird, but have managed to convince yourself that this, a slight change in controls and some speed I guess, COMPLETELY undermine what she represents. Trust me, it doesn't. Whether it's major as a change or not is irrelevent. You point out Mario vs Sonic, and how horrible it would be, as you say, to suddenly boost Mario's speed. Why would that be so aweful anyway? Mario is only known for being slow in the context of Sonic's existance. If Sonic never existed, it wouldn't be an issue would it? You'd think "hey, what if Mario suddenly gained super speed in one game?". You are limiting Mario's potential only because another developer's creation already fills that "niche", and it's silly. Developers often take their franchises and toss them into other accepted genres. Wars is going Real Time, even though it had been known as an "alternative to real time" by a lot of people. I as a developer won't let that others did it before limit me, so long as I don't outright COPY it, and I think you know if Shiggy ever did decide to make Mario super fast for one game, it'd certainly be a lot different than a Sonic game.
OB1, first you say that items mean nothing, then you go on to say that Samus' armor is a DIFFERENT KIND of item and that it can't be removed suddenly. They DID do that, and gave her a stun gun and good jumping abilities without the suit. Yeesh, why are SOME items completely okay to change but OTHERS not? Whether it's a part of their body or not is completely irrelevent. Once something's behavior has been established, as you put it, it can't be suddenly changed with no explanation. Your double standard is painfully obvious. While it's FINE for something like a koopa shell to suddenly out of NOWHERE be a skateboard that turns mario invincible, you say it's completely different for Mario himself to suddenly, from nowhere, be able to dig underground like a mole. These are BOTH the SAME THINGS. Sure, you can say "well those are different shells", but it would be wrong to use such a defense as that just to keep your double standard intact. Fact is, the shell's behavior has been established for some time and they changed it completely out of the blue in an unexpected way. I LOVED that they did that. The fact that they are "different shells" as one could put it is totally irrelevent. It's that we EXPECTED them to act one way based on previous experience and they acted a totally unexpected way that is important. It's what WE, the PLAYERS are thinking that matters.
Also, you completely failed to address ABF's VERY good point on the bubble shield. Aside from Kirby, not a single other character has this ability or anything even remotely close. It's not an item at all, it's a POWER generated via their BODIES. Yoshi uses an egg instead, everyone else uses an orb of power. You seem totally okay with this. Since when does Yoshi for example hide INSIDE an egg to protect him from attacks? I'll go ahead and oblige you on your silly double standard between items and characters and remind you that Yoshi MAKES those eggs himself.
You may at this point say the same silly thing you said about Captain Falcon "Well, you never saw him outside the car before" would transform into "you don't know his eggs couldn't do that before!". Mind you, your very argument here defeats you. If you can argue that there was no evidence Captain Falcon or Yoshi COULDN'T do those things, then I can just as easily point out there's no evidence at all that Kazooie CAN'T fly like a Diddy Kong Racing plane. As I've said again and again, Kazooie is known for being able to fly, she's known for spitting eggs, and known for being on the back of a bear. However, she is NOT known for being slow. You may have noticed this as an aside in those two games, but it's CERTAINLY not a trademark quality of the bird.
And yes, you say "this is the stupidest thing ever" and "You have really disappointed me" every SINGLE time someone, anyone, disagrees with you. It's not just rude, it's a blatent bit of self deception. You know as well as anyone that the probability of each argument ACTUALLY being worse than the last, each and every time, is just too low to be true. Also, if I have "completely dissappointed you" or "you have lost all respect for me" the last time, then how can it happen AGAIN? Did I do something amazing that GAINED your respect between arguments or something? In effect, where I previously thought you had 0 respect from me the entire time, I suddenly found out you had some respect for me for a while before this, and so I'm actually FLATTERED :D (kidding, I honestly don't care what you think about me at this point). Honestly, you need to learn some manners and common decency. You know why we never get mad at lazy, even with those VERY off color remarks? It's because he manages to convey VERY well an aura of respect for our opinions and we respect him back for it. You haven't managed to do that for ANYONE in a LONG time.
Your comments that "not a single person here has any debate skills except me" proves your egotism and outright rudeness. Now, look I"m not trying to insult you, well maybe a little, but the fact is you never once consider even the possibility that it's not that everyone here is a moron, but perhaps that you are in fact very bad at recognizing valid points when they go against what you think. Try and at least consider that you might be wrong. It is NOT a sign of weakness to admit defeat! It's NOT!
I don't claim to be perfect. I'm in this debate that for all intents and purposes has been over for some time after all. However, you need to acknowledge your own lack of social graces you know? Seriously, if you can respond to this VERY harsh assesment by me without completely getting angry, without ANY sort of attack, maybe just by saying "I see you have issues with me, I won't respond to your attacks, but rather just step out", it would show a HUGE improvement.
And just to finish up, games always do completely unexpected things to their characters all the time, and character or item, it's irrelevent. The important bit is what we EXPECT them to do and how their behaviors and abilities match up. It's a good thing. There's an entire series that shares ONLY the name in common with the others, and the only connection IS the side items and some creatures. I call it "Final Fantasy". The entire theme, world, story, characters, and ability systems (and sometimes the battle system itself) is different in each game. In fact, FFX-2, where it was actually using the same world and some characters, was actually a huge CHANGE from the norm. It worked out though. I wouldn't want to be limited in what I can do as a designer just because someone doesn't think a character or item or world or whatever (it's all the same, your argument has been done to death on many things, and when it's disregarded magic happens, but when the developers try too much to please the existing fans, stagnation happens, see Street Fighter) can do something.
OB1, open up your imagination. I still think that deep down you are fully aware of how cool it would be to fly as our favorite orange freak bird, but have managed to convince yourself that this, a slight change in controls and some speed I guess, COMPLETELY undermine what she represents. Trust me, it doesn't. Whether it's major as a change or not is irrelevent. You point out Mario vs Sonic, and how horrible it would be, as you say, to suddenly boost Mario's speed. Why would that be so aweful anyway? Mario is only known for being slow in the context of Sonic's existance. If Sonic never existed, it wouldn't be an issue would it? You'd think "hey, what if Mario suddenly gained super speed in one game?". You are limiting Mario's potential only because another developer's creation already fills that "niche", and it's silly. Developers often take their franchises and toss them into other accepted genres. Wars is going Real Time, even though it had been known as an "alternative to real time" by a lot of people. I as a developer won't let that others did it before limit me, so long as I don't outright COPY it, and I think you know if Shiggy ever did decide to make Mario super fast for one game, it'd certainly be a lot different than a Sonic game.
29th April 2004, 2:44 PM
Quote:OB1 the debate is over. You lost. I'm not going to re-explain everything in terms you can understand because you simply dont have the education for it. And again, you only want to argue instead of debate. You're making nothing but contradictory statements with absolutely no basis and you're doing it just to be spiteful, that in itself is insanely immature for someone who says that he prides himself on his abilities to debate. In fact, I could get someone from the development team who worked on DKR and B~k to tell you up front that Kazooie would be fine as a DKR plane, but would require 3 or 4 times as much memory as the plane, (not to mention that each character would be riding a different creature with animations and so forth), so it would not be used on a GBA game. But it would be used in the now cancelled Donkey Kong Racing where a bee, an ostridge, a rhino and a swordfish all move and control the same and are about the same speed. If a rhino can be a car, than a bird can be a plane. And even with that information, you still would argue.
Lazy, during your entire stay at Tendo City you have shown nothing but immaturity and pompousness, and when you are wrong you can only resort to insults and calling people penises. Basing most of your argument off of the statement "I know more than you" shows your inability to debate with a real, solid opinion to back it up. In this debate I have presented my opinion with solid reason and logic to back it up, and all you've been able to do is dodge my points and talk about how much more you know than me. Don't say you know so much more than me, prove it. Prove it with reason and back it up with something more than your ego and how much smarter you say you are than me.
It all boils down to this: I think Kazooie as is would be terrible for a racing game, and you think she'd be great. I've told you why I think she'd be bad and you've told me why you think she'd be good. This is a matter of opinion, not fact. But that's not enough for you, apparently. For whatever reason, you will not accept it unless I agree with your opinion, which again is not fact. Debating with you is extremely tiresome as nothing gets resolved. I seriously hope you show more intelligence and maturity with the games you make in the future. I know that Tendo City brings out the worst in all of us, but hopefully you'll read this and think for a moment. I will not continue this debate. Agree with me or not, nothing is going to change so I am quitting.
29th April 2004, 3:06 PM
I would personally like to say that all of you video game nerds desperately need to get some frickin' lives. You've spend almost 100 posts debating on how a stupid imaginary bird flies. That's just sad, fools. Makes Bo very sad.
29th April 2004, 3:11 PM
They started it!
Seriously, this is why I am ending the debate. Let the rest of them continue by themselves if they so choose.
Seriously, this is why I am ending the debate. Let the rest of them continue by themselves if they so choose.
29th April 2004, 3:29 PM
*slaps OB1*
Don't pretend lazy's acting like you and you're acting like him! Snap out of it OB1!
Don't pretend lazy's acting like you and you're acting like him! Snap out of it OB1!
29th April 2004, 4:09 PM
Wow... OB1 has completely lost it. I mean, you cant just totally change all the context and change the argument like that... can you?
I'm very very sorry, OB1. I hope you feel better soon. I never said I was smarter than you or better than you in any way. When I posted my opinion that I think Kazooie should have been used as the plane you created very large posts of why my opinions are wrong, and I defended them accordingly. I didn't call anyone a name when I started this debate and I simply wanted to show you how it could be done with some simple reasoning. You have altered the path of the debate multiple times, I dont know why you did that, but I think it's because I made it difficult for you to stay on a single subject.
but you still haven't answered the question, if Kazooie used her tail feathers like a plane propeller--
Example:
![[Image: index.18.jpg]](http://www.jjultralight.com/usedaircraft/index.18.jpg)
![[Image: index.20.jpg]](http://www.jjultralight.com/usedaircraft/index.20.jpg)
Just as she used them as a propeller to become a torpedo when using the Talon-Torpedo move in Banjo~Tooie would it be more within character and justifiable? When she does this move, her butt feathers spin just like a prop and make Kazooie the fastest thing in the game. She could have her tail feathers rotating before the race starts and then take off just as a plane would (no flapping) and even fly as one. Now I think that would be the perfect method for her to be used as a racing vehicle and I think you would agree.
I'm very very sorry, OB1. I hope you feel better soon. I never said I was smarter than you or better than you in any way. When I posted my opinion that I think Kazooie should have been used as the plane you created very large posts of why my opinions are wrong, and I defended them accordingly. I didn't call anyone a name when I started this debate and I simply wanted to show you how it could be done with some simple reasoning. You have altered the path of the debate multiple times, I dont know why you did that, but I think it's because I made it difficult for you to stay on a single subject.
but you still haven't answered the question, if Kazooie used her tail feathers like a plane propeller--
Example:
Just as she used them as a propeller to become a torpedo when using the Talon-Torpedo move in Banjo~Tooie would it be more within character and justifiable? When she does this move, her butt feathers spin just like a prop and make Kazooie the fastest thing in the game. She could have her tail feathers rotating before the race starts and then take off just as a plane would (no flapping) and even fly as one. Now I think that would be the perfect method for her to be used as a racing vehicle and I think you would agree.
29th April 2004, 4:37 PM
I've lost it? I'm acting the most sensible out of everyone in this God forsaken place!
DJ is being her usual annoying self, popping in to say something stupid and annoying. That's all she does, "peck" at people. I wonder if she realizes how annoying she is, or if she can help it at all. And you've just reacted very strangely to my post. I told you why I think I was right, while you told me why you think you are right. WE BOTH DID THE SAME DAMN THING.
Kazooie using her tail as a propeller? That might work, even though she's never flown like that before... but I think that might work if you explain that she's in some weird plane mode, though you'd also have to make her control just like a plane and not like Kazooie in B-K. But yeah, if you do it like that rather than what you suggested before, it could work.
DJ is being her usual annoying self, popping in to say something stupid and annoying. That's all she does, "peck" at people. I wonder if she realizes how annoying she is, or if she can help it at all. And you've just reacted very strangely to my post. I told you why I think I was right, while you told me why you think you are right. WE BOTH DID THE SAME DAMN THING.
Kazooie using her tail as a propeller? That might work, even though she's never flown like that before... but I think that might work if you explain that she's in some weird plane mode, though you'd also have to make her control just like a plane and not like Kazooie in B-K. But yeah, if you do it like that rather than what you suggested before, it could work.
29th April 2004, 5:22 PM
Good. I'm glad it would work. And you just contradicted yourself based on your previous arguments in so many ways that it makes my head spin by agreeing that it would work. I have reached an official conclusion:
You are a big diaper. A large.... stinky, brown diaper. I wonder if anyone else will see the horrible contradiction that OB1 made by agreeing that Kazooie can fly like a plane.
I hereby state the obvious!
You are a big diaper. A large.... stinky, brown diaper. I wonder if anyone else will see the horrible contradiction that OB1 made by agreeing that Kazooie can fly like a plane.
I hereby state the obvious!
29th April 2004, 5:27 PM
Look at what we've become!! We've been reduced to animals trying to rip each other apart!! And it's all RARE'S fault! That's right! It's ALL their fault! They made this game knowing that it would be controversial and they're right because it's splitting the forum down the middle!! We can't let them tear apart the grandness of people who love Nintendo!
Melodrama Meter: Wow. That's seriously gotta be a like 10 at least.
Melodrama Meter: Wow. That's seriously gotta be a like 10 at least.
29th April 2004, 5:57 PM
I didn't contradict myself you dick, but I couldn't think of a good way to make Kazooie work as a plane and your ideas were all bad up until that last one.
29th April 2004, 5:59 PM
I too think that lazy is a dick. And an asswipe. Aaaaand a pussy.
And BoJo is never wrong.
And BoJo is never wrong.
29th April 2004, 6:25 PM
This thread is like the equivilant of three hundred pounds of beef in that if you left it outside for a few days it'd start to smell really bad.
29th April 2004, 6:32 PM
Hey if Bo Jackson says that lazy is a pussy, he's a fucking pussy. Bo doesn't lie. :D