Imaginary games that you plan on getting (in your mind) this year

[OB1]

Here's what I want to get:

-Kid Icarus (GC)
-SSB Advance (GBA)
-Zelda Compilation (GC)
-Star Wars Freelancer (PC)
-Silent Hill 0 (GC)
-ICO 2 (PS2)
-Mark of Kri 2 (PS2)
-System Shock 3 (PC)
-Grand Theft Auto: Hong Kong (PS2)
-OB1's Awesome Adventure Through Tendo City, With His Sidekick Great Rumbler (GC)

[Great Rumbler]

Hyper Super-Amazing Explosive Kick Boxing Muskrats in Australia 3. That game is so super freaking sweet and the graphics are the most realistic graphics eve!! It looks better than Final Fantasy the Movie and Finding Nemo combined into a big pile of CG slendor.

Btw, "OB1's Awesome Adventure Through Tendocity, With His Sidekick Great Rumbler" is actually based on the movie "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas".

[A Black Falcon]

These three games are the three that are, by far, the games I most wish would happen... but they won't. Well, the first one might eventually, but those other two... :( :( :( :( :(

-Star Wars: TIE Fighter 2, by Totally Games/Lucasarts
-PlaneScape: Torment 2, by Black Isle/Interplay
-Commander Keen 7: The Universe Is Toast (well that was going to be the name of Keen 7...), by Tom Hall (Ion Storm)

Other games that should be made...

-Pod 2 (Speed Zone doesn't count...)
-Rollcage 3
-Star Wars: X-Wing Alliance 2 (to finish the story)
-NetStorm 2
-MDK3
-Hardball 7
-Quest for Glory VI (Online?)
-The Lost Vikings 3
-Castles 3
-another Lemmings game

As for OB1's list... System Shock 3 would be awesome. SSB Advance would be nice. Kid Icarus would also be good... and Zelda Compilation and GTA and Ico. :)

Star Wars Freelancer? Well... not if you mean 'mouse-controlled + Wing Commander gameplay/mission style (ie waypoint - fight - warp to waypoint - fight, etc)... but yes if you mean a full Star Wars sim with the economic model and freedom of a Privateer or FreeLancer. :)

[OB1]

No, damnit! Keep your sim crap to the X-Wing games. I want a SW space combat game kinda like Freelancer where you play as a smuggler and visit tons of worlds in a non-linear fashion.

[A Black Falcon]

But it'd be stupid! Keep your lame mouse combat far, far away from Star Wars!

[OB1]

Right, so non-realistic flight sims are bad, but non-realistic racers are the only good kind? You big hypocrite. At least the realistic racers don't have crappier controls and gameplay like realistic flight sims do. I don't give a damn about shield management, I just want good controls and combat. Not the usual crap that you get from most space sims. "Try to shoot the enemy while it flies right in front of you, turn around reeeaaal slow, then try to shoot the enemy again when it zips right past you". :yawn:

[A Black Falcon]

Simple flight action games can be some fun, but in no way are they as enjoyable as a good, complex space sim. I know I've said it before, but every time I play Rogue Leader I think about how much more fun the game would be with a X-Wing game system... I like the added compexity! Oh, mindless shooting is fun too, of course... its just sometimes I definitely like the added depth.

As for racing games, I think the problem there (just like with realistic modern-day flight sims) isn't that I truly hate the genre, its that I just don't want to spend the amount of time in it that it'd take to get good... so I am bad and get frusterated. :)

[OB1]

I love games like Gran Turismo and games like F-Zero. I also like games like X-Wing despite my comments, although the only good part of the combat is the joystick controls. Everything else about that type of space combat sucks. Freelancer isn't anywhere near as simple as Rogue Leader. It's not as deep as say, X-Wing because there's no shield management or anything like that, but the combat itself if far superior. It's very natural-feeling, fast, arcade-like but not simple like Rogue Leader.

BTW are you planning on getting X2? Don't tell me you've never heard of it...

[A Black Falcon]

Rogue Squadron with a joystick is a bit better (I've played it with one, so I'd know... :) ), but its still Rogue Squadron, with its painfully simple combat... I know I like scrolling shooters and stuff, but once they go to the level of depth in a Rogue Squadron, I just wish it went further. I love the strategy of managing your energy, the depth of having deep wingman command systems and lots of ship systems, etc...

[OB1]

The problem with RS's controls isn't really the fact that they're simple, it's that the vehicles have no weight to them. They feel like they're made out of styrofoam. Freelancer's ships do not feel that way.

[A Black Falcon]

Freelancer... I played the demo. It feels like a FPS in space. And see... I don't like FPSes anywhere near as much as either joystick-based action flight sims, gamepad-based action flight sims, or real flight sims... so that just isn't a good thing for me.

For people who don't like flight sims? I'm sure they'd love Freelancer. But for people who do? No way...

Of course the fact that its got Wing Commander's tedious style of warp-fight-warp for missions doesn't help either, but the controls are the main problem.

Oh yeah, and for some reason Rogue Squadron didn't make me think "I wish this was a sim" while RL did... maybe because of the better graphics? I don't know... but it did.

RL is a very pretty game, but has no depth. Its still a lot of fun to play, of course... I just wish it was more. :)

[OB1]

The only thing that Freelancer's controls share with a FPS's is the fact that you move and (sort of) strafe with the keyboard and aim with a mouse. That's the case with almost all PC action games.

You obviously didn't play the game for very long judging by that extremely ignorant summarization of the gameplay that you just made. Freelancer plays just like Privateer, or Morrowind in space. There is a main story but it is not neccessary to follow, and the missiona can get very complex. The gameplay is more certainly not warp-fight-warp as you so stupidly put it. It's about being a bounty hunter, a smuggler, or whatever, and doing whatever you want to make money and upgrade your ships and parts. In that sense it is much deeper than those very linear X-Wing games that you play. This is just another classic example of you judging a game from little or no playtime. Very, very sad.

[A Black Falcon]

The only thing that Freelancer's controls share with a FPS's is the fact that you move and (sort of) strafe with the keyboard and aim with a mouse. That's the case with almost all PC action games.

I said that because I remember in previews somewhere hearing it characterized that way, and after playing the game I agree... it IS a lot like a FPS, with WASD movement and the mouse to point your aim...

You obviously didn't play the game for very long judging by that extremely ignorant summarization of the gameplay that you just made. Freelancer plays just like Privateer, or Morrowind in space. There is a main story but it is not neccessary to follow, and the missiona can get very complex. The gameplay is more certainly not warp-fight-warp as you so stupidly put it. It's about being a bounty hunter, a smuggler, or whatever, and doing whatever you want to make money and upgrade your ships and parts. In that sense it is much deeper than those very linear X-Wing games that you play. This is just another classic example of you judging a game from little or no playtime. Very, very sad.

I haven't played much of any Elder Scrolls game, Privateer, or Freelancer (beyond the demo), so mostly I can just base it on what I know... ie that its non-linear. I know. And sure, only the main story missions would often be warp-fight-warp (like the demo... you warp, fight baddies, warp, fight more baddies, warp, fight baddie base, warp home... made me think of StarLancer, or Wing Commander... not terrible, but somewhat boring...)

Sure, most of the game isn't that. I know. Which is why I focused on how the combat system works, not that style of tedious Wing Commander combat...

As for the X-Wing series, it is certainly linear, but its perfectly good that way. The missions are a lot of fun, its challenging... the games are just plain a lot of fun to play!

Oh, by the way, one reason I love TIE Fighter so much is because it was the game that got me into space sims. I got it in the Lucasarts Collection 2... something I bought to get Rebel Assualt 2, really, but I was somewhat interested in TIE Fighter. Needless to say it turned out to be ... better than I expected ... :)

Its not great because of super-complex missions... its because of the combat, and flying the ships. Its just so much fun to dogfight in the X-Wing games! Dogfighting while controlling your ship's fairly complex systems is the core of the game , and its so, so much fun to do that...

Wing Commander (and by extention Privateer and Freelancer)'s simpler combat system just isn't as fun, that's the core of why those games' combat doesn't intrest me much.

[Dark Jaguar]

I want to get the Toxic Avengers movie trilogy on DVD. That's the game I want in my mind!

[OB1]

I said that because I remember in previews somewhere hearing it characterized that way, and after playing the game I agree... it IS a lot like a FPS, with WASD movement and the mouse to point your aim...

So F-Zero plays just like Mario Sunshine because you use a controller and buttons to move?

I haven't played much of any Elder Scrolls game, Privateer, or Freelancer (beyond the demo), so mostly I can just base it on what I know... ie that its non-linear. I know. And sure, only the main story missions would often be warp-fight-warp (like the demo... you warp, fight baddies, warp, fight more baddies, warp, fight baddie base, warp home... made me think of StarLancer, or Wing Commander... not terrible, but somewhat boring...)

Sure, most of the game isn't that. I know. Which is why I focused on how the combat system works, not that style of tedious Wing Commander combat...

That's not how Privateer, Elite, or Freelancer work. First of all I can't believe you've never played much of a non-linear space sim (the best kind there is), but I'll get to that later. What you do in these types of games is find jobs, join guilds, etc. and take jobs to make money. You can use the money for upgrades such as weapons, shielding, thrusters, or for buying new ships. There are several different jobs you can take. You can become a smuggler and transport illegel commodities between various worlds, you can become a bounty hunter and kill or capture people for money, you can become a legit trader and buy and sell commodities for a profit, and various other jobs. The more money you make the better ships, weapons, etc. you can buy so that you can visit new worlds in new solar systems, and basically just do whatever you want to. The freedom is what makes these types of games so much fun.

As for the X-Wing series, it is certainly linear, but its perfectly good that way. The missions are a lot of fun, its challenging... the games are just plain a lot of fun to play!

But they lack longevity. With something like X-Wing you can beat it in a relatively short amount of time and there's really no reason to go back, while with games like Freelancer and the upcoming X 2 you could literally play them for years without getting board, as there's an almost endless amount of things to explore. I love these types of space sims because of the amount of freedom you get.

Oh, by the way, one reason I love TIE Fighter so much is because it was the game that got me into space sims. I got it in the Lucasarts Collection 2... something I bought to get Rebel Assualt 2, really, but I was somewhat interested in TIE Fighter. Needless to say it turned out to be ... better than I expected ...

Its not great because of super-complex missions... its because of the combat, and flying the ships. Its just so much fun to dogfight in the X-Wing games! Dogfighting while controlling your ship's fairly complex systems is the core of the game , and its so, so much fun to do that...

Wing Commander (and by extention Privateer and Freelancer)'s simpler combat system just isn't as fun, that's the core of why those games' combat doesn't intrest me much.

Then you like them for the management during combat rather than the combat itself, which is vey simple.

[Undertow]

Duke Nukem- Forever (PC)
Zombies Ate My Neighbors and Had a Beach Party In My Backyard Only There Was No Beach (XBox)

[A Black Falcon]

So F-Zero plays just like Mario Sunshine because you use a controller and buttons to move?

Oh COME ON, Freelancer controls a lot like a FPS! Well... a Decent-style FPS...

That's not how Privateer, Elite, or Freelancer work. First of all I can't believe you've never played much of a non-linear space sim (the best kind there is), but I'll get to that later. What you do in these types of games is find jobs, join guilds, etc. and take jobs to make money. You can use the money for upgrades such as weapons, shielding, thrusters, or for buying new ships. There are several different jobs you can take. You can become a smuggler and transport illegel commodities between various worlds, you can become a bounty hunter and kill or capture people for money, you can become a legit trader and buy and sell commodities for a profit, and various other jobs. The more money you make the better ships, weapons, etc. you can buy so that you can visit new worlds in new solar systems, and basically just do whatever you want to. The freedom is what makes these types of games so much fun.

The only space flight sims I own are Wing Commander (from PC Gamer's classic games collection disc...), X-Wing '95, TIE Fighter CD-Rom Collection, TIE Fighter '95 (same thing, but win95 and better graphics...), and X-Wing Alliance. Yup, that's it... (uhh... except for a ... abandonware ... copy of Freespace 2...) but I've played demos of a variety of others (Starlancer, Freelancer, Privateer 2, Tachyon (good game!), Freespace 1 and 2 (also good games...), etc...). And yes, the open-ended ones do sound like they play quite differently in many aspects, aspects which make the games more fun in non-combat ways. But I honestly don't mind the linear campaign... actually, I like the style. Sure, you can't choose what missions to do or anything, but the added story depth is nice.

Oh yeah, and its not like there isn't ANY choices. In TIE Fighter for example there're the hidden bonus objectives to do which get you stuff...

In a X-Wing, flight systems and combat is key because the fighting is the central part of the game. In Freelancer it admittedly is a bit less important because of other options... but still, its far more fun to fly a ship with a joystick than with a mouse! Far, far more fun...

And Freelancer's combat is just far too simple. Sure, it has a nice touch (how you need to pay for everything, included missiles fired) or two, but its painfully simple... the combat is just click-spin-fire. Like Wing Commander but even SIMPLER... which is bad.

But they lack longevity. With something like X-Wing you can beat it in a relatively short amount of time and there's really no reason to go back, while with games like Freelancer and the upcoming X 2 you could literally play them for years without getting board, as there's an almost endless amount of things to explore. I love these types of space sims because of the amount of freedom you get.

I've had TIE Fighter since '96 and still haven't beaten it. On Easy. X-Wing is just as long. X-Wing Alliance is close. "short"? Uhh... NO. Now, sure, I don't play TIE Fighter much and pretty much never play those others. But the fact remains... TIE Fighter has like 70 main missions. Each takes quite some time to finish. That's many, many hours of gaming... it might be a bit too long. :)

Honestly, the reason I haven't played TIE Fighter in 6 months isn't because I don't want to but because I'm so close to the end... just two or three more missions and its all over! I've been playing the thing off and on for so long... I don't want it to end...

Oh yeah, and X 2 is a hardcore space sim... you still like it? :)

Then you like them for the management during combat rather than the combat itself, which is vey simple.

X-Wing's combat is easily ten times more complex than Wing Commander, at least. No question about that... you seriously think they are close? Huh? But Wing Commander is so simple! X-Wing/TIE Fighter adds multiple layers of depth, making the sim far more interesting... and it makes the missions more varied, too.


Oh yeah, and finally, based on my experience in the genre, after TIE Fighter and X-Wing Alliance, the next best space sim is Freespace 2.

[OB1]

Oh COME ON, Freelancer controls a lot like a FPS! Well... a Decent-style FPS...

You may use some of the same buttons but the actual controls and feeling of the objects you are controlling are nothing alike. You're out of your mind.

The only space flight sims I own are Wing Commander (from PC Gamer's classic games collection disc...), X-Wing '95, TIE Fighter CD-Rom Collection, TIE Fighter '95 (same thing, but win95 and better graphics...), and X-Wing Alliance. Yup, that's it... (uhh... except for a ... abandonware ... copy of Freespace 2...) but I've played demos of a variety of others (Starlancer, Freelancer, Privateer 2, Tachyon (good game!), Freespace 1 and 2 (also good games...), etc...). And yes, the open-ended ones do sound like they play quite differently in many aspects, aspects which make the games more fun in non-combat ways. But I honestly don't mind the linear campaign... actually, I like the style. Sure, you can't choose what missions to do or anything, but the added story depth is nice.

Oh yeah, and its not like there isn't ANY choices. In TIE Fighter for example there're the hidden bonus objectives to do which get you stuff...

Wow, you've barely played any space sims at all! I have more space sims than you do! *Tsk tsk tsk*

In a X-Wing, flight systems and combat is key because the fighting is the central part of the game. In Freelancer it admittedly is a bit less important because of other options... but still, its far more fun to fly a ship with a joystick than with a mouse! Far, far more fun...

And Freelancer's combat is just far too simple. Sure, it has a nice touch (how you need to pay for everything, included missiles fired) or two, but its painfully simple... the combat is just click-spin-fire. Like Wing Commander but even SIMPLER... which is bad.

Take away the shield management from X-Wing and the combat in far, far simpler than the combat in Freelancer.

And I love it how you to try to simplify games for your arguments. I could say that Warcraft is just a "point-choose-click" game just as easily as you can say that Freelancer's combat is "click-spin-fire". You can do that with any game.

I've had TIE Fighter since '96 and still haven't beaten it. On Easy. X-Wing is just as long. X-Wing Alliance is close. "short"? Uhh... NO. Now, sure, I don't play TIE Fighter much and pretty much never play those others. But the fact remains... TIE Fighter has like 70 main missions. Each takes quite some time to finish. That's many, many hours of gaming... it might be a bit too long.

Honestly, the reason I haven't played TIE Fighter in 6 months isn't because I don't want to but because I'm so close to the end... just two or three more missions and its all over! I've been playing the thing off and on for so long... I don't want it to end...

Right, you don't want it to end. You don't have to worry about that with open-ended space combat games, especially those with multiplayer. They are several times longer than linear space sims.

Oh yeah, and X 2 is a hardcore space sim... you still like it?

I've played and owned more "hardcore" space sims than you have, buddy. I just don't have an elitist attitude towards them to hide my ignorance like you do.

X-Wing's combat is easily ten times more complex than Wing Commander, at least. No question about that... you seriously think they are close? Huh? But Wing Commander is so simple! X-Wing/TIE Fighter adds multiple layers of depth, making the sim far more interesting... and it makes the missions more varied, too.

Oh yeah, and finally, based on my experience in the genre, after TIE Fighter and X-Wing Alliance, the next best space sim is Freespace 2.

I'm talking about the actual combat, not other things like shield management. The combat itself is extremely boring and very archaic.

[A Black Falcon]

You may use some of the same buttons but the actual controls and feeling of the objects you are controlling are nothing alike. You're out of your mind.

But you move with the keyboard and aim with the mouse... sure the objects don't move exactly like Descent, but its close enough that I see a resemblance! A big part of the fun of flight sims is controlling the ships with a joystick, after all... Freelancer doesn't have that. It has mouse/keyboard, and a simplified flight system.

Wow, you've barely played any space sims at all! I have more space sims than you do! *Tsk tsk tsk*

I've played the best ones. :D

Right, you don't want it to end. You don't have to worry about that with open-ended space combat games, especially those with multiplayer. They are several times longer than linear space sims.

So instead of taking seven years they take 21? :)

My point is that linear space shooters ... aren't exactly short.

I've played and owned more "hardcore" space sims than you have, buddy. I just don't have an elitist attitude towards them to hide my ignorance like you do.

That comment wasn't really serious.

Take away the shield management from X-Wing and the combat in far, far simpler than the combat in Freelancer.

And I love it how you to try to simplify games for your arguments. I could say that Warcraft is just a "point-choose-click" game just as easily as you can say that Freelancer's combat is "click-spin-fire". You can do that with any game.

For that first paragraph. No way in the world. Sure, in both you spin around and dogfight and try to get behind the enemy so you can shoot them... but X-Wing just has so many more layers of depth.

Lets see... 1)power management (% to shield/lazer/beam; transferring power between systems to boost weak ones) 2)shield management (front/rear/center) 3) lazers (not overusing them, waiting for them to recharge...) 4) fairly complex flight systems (other than power management) 5) the nice dual-circle radar system. :D

#3, the lazers, was something I REALLY noticed in Freelancer. You don't have to worry about firing -- you can do it forever and it'll never run down or overheat or anything... sure that's simple, but its far less fun! And that's just one way that completely removing power management made Freelancer's combat so simple.

Now... sure, removing X-Wing's power management would put it close (not quite down to Freelancer's level, due to X-Wing's joystick-driven combat and better flight models, but a lot closer)... but that isn't relevant, since the power management system is the core of the ship systems! Removing it would be like removing jumping from a Mario game!

Oh yeah, and I'm not really simplifying Freelancer's combat at all to say this. It really IS that shallow... the only depth that's there is the fact that you've got to pay for your missiles. Controlling the ship itsself? Very simple... just turn and fire. You can even hit anyone on the screen without turning much with some weapons, making precisely lining up with your enemy less important and removing even more depth...

I'm talking about the actual combat, not other things like shield management. The combat itself is extremely boring and very archaic.

You cannot talk about combat without power management because the power management is absolutely central to every phase of the game, combat and non-combat...

[OB1]

But you move with the keyboard and aim with the mouse... sure the objects don't move exactly like Descent, but its close enough that I see a resemblance! A big part of the fun of flight sims is controlling the ships with a joystick, after all... Freelancer doesn't have that. It has mouse/keyboard, and a simplified flight system.

The developers of Freelancer actually wanted to do something new with the combat in the space sim genre, and they did an admiral job with it. No more joystick control, but the actual combat is the best there is.

I've played the best ones.

The best linear ones, maybe, but that's not saying much.

So instead of taking seven years they take 21?

My point is that linear space shooters ... aren't exactly short.

Yes they are, you just haven't finished them because you held off for seven years!

That comment wasn't really serious.

Of course not.

For that first paragraph. No way in the world. Sure, in both you spin around and dogfight and try to get behind the enemy so you can shoot them... but X-Wing just has so many more layers of depth.

Lets see... 1)power management (% to shield/lazer/beam; transferring power between systems to boost weak ones) 2)shield management (front/rear/center) 3) lazers (not overusing them, waiting for them to recharge...) 4) fairly complex flight systems (other than power management) 5) the nice dual-circle radar system.

I said take away the power management and consider the actual raw combat. Ooh, there's a radar system! That makes it so much... easier, actually.

#3, the lazers, was something I REALLY noticed in Freelancer. You don't have to worry about firing -- you can do it forever and it'll never run down or overheat or anything... sure that's simple, but its far less fun! And that's just one way that completely removing power management made Freelancer's combat so simple.

Yet again you show your ignorance towards this subject. Your lasers (the correct spelling, BTW) do overheat, and that's one thing you have to be careful about. You have to buy better lasers and cooling systems to get longer fire life.

Now... sure, removing X-Wing's power management would put it close (not quite down to Freelancer's level, due to X-Wing's joystick-driven combat and better flight models, but a lot closer)... but that isn't relevant, since the power management system is the core of the ship systems! Removing it would be like removing jumping from a Mario game!

No it wouldn't, as the power management was put there to make combat seem complex. The flight models are not better and the actual combat is far simpler than Freelancer's. I have played both games extensively, you have not.

Oh yeah, and I'm not really simplifying Freelancer's combat at all to say this. It really IS that shallow... the only depth that's there is the fact that you've got to pay for your missiles. Controlling the ship itsself? Very simple... just turn and fire. You can even hit anyone on the screen without turning much with some weapons, making precisely lining up with your enemy less important and removing even more depth...

That's a complete and total lie. Just because it's easier to fire on enemies doesn't mean that the combat is simpler. By that logic you could say that a FPS with poor aiming would be more complex than say, Half-Life. Aiming and flying isn't slow and clumsy like it is in most space sims, so you have to worry about outsmarting the enemies rather than outsmarting the crappy controls.

You cannot talk about combat without power management because the power management is absolutely central to every phase of the game, combat and non-combat...

That's the only thing that makes the combat somewhat deep. It's a cheap way of making it tougher.

[A Black Falcon]

The developers of Freelancer actually wanted to do something new with the combat in the space sim genre, and they did an admiral job with it. No more joystick control, but the actual combat is the best there is.

No, its just too dumbed down to be as fun as real space sims.

How does Freelancer have deeper combat than the X-Wing series? I don't see any way that that is possible.

Yes they are, you just haven't finished them because you held off for seven years!

But also because they are quite long and challenging...

Of course not.

Why do you never believe me when I'm joking? It gets frusterating...

I said take away the power management and consider the actual raw combat. Ooh, there's a radar system! That makes it so much... easier, actually.

But as I said, the power management is absolutely central to the gameplay and without it the game would be a shell of what it is... no way would it be half as fun...

Yet again you show your ignorance towards this subject. Your lasers (the correct spelling, BTW) do overheat, and that's one thing you have to be careful about. You have to buy better lasers and cooling systems to get longer fire life.

I played through the demo and don't remember that ever happening.

No it wouldn't, as the power management was put there to make combat seem complex. The flight models are not better and the actual combat is far simpler than Freelancer's. I have played both games extensively, you have not.

So? I'm talking about TIE Fighter mostly here, a game I have put a lot of hours into...

And you make it seem like the power management is optional, or added, or something! It is the heart of the entire gameplay system, and makes the whole game work! Combat? Yes, you do a lot of it... but the combat would be RADICALLY different without that power system, as you know if you've played these games as much as you say.

That's a complete and total lie. Just because it's easier to fire on enemies doesn't mean that the combat is simpler. By that logic you could say that a FPS with poor aiming would be more complex than say, Half-Life. Aiming and flying isn't slow and clumsy like it is in most space sims, so you have to worry about outsmarting the enemies rather than outsmarting the crappy controls.

Can't agree there, given how I love TIE Fighter's fighter controls, and think that the X-Wing series has the best flight model in the genre. :)

I just love how the planes fly, how they feel, the pace and complexity of the combat... its all done nearly perfectly...

Oh yeah, and you misrepresent it so badly there... this isn't a case of 'good controls' vs 'bad controls'. Its two totally different, diametrically opposing styles -- simple and easy to target and shoot versus much harder to target and shoot. I happen to love the complexity of the latter system...

Did I find Freelancer's combat fun? Yeah, but it has NO sense of immersion. I don't feel like I'm flying the ship... I feel like I'm flying a ship in a action game or something. What's so great about space sims is that they really make you feel like you're THERE! That's another way that the mouse system totally fails, in addition to all the ones I've said so far...

That's the only thing that makes the combat somewhat deep. It's a cheap way of making it tougher.

Cheap? CHEAP? Uhh... you are insane. Its called strategy. Strategy. Its about making the game more complex and deep... in a way that adds a lot of complexity and fun to the simulation. X-Wing with no power management would be a much simpler game... but by making you manage your lazers, shields, and engines, it achieves good depth in a way that is fun. Well, fun to me anyway... I always liked the power management systems. If you're low on shields you move over power from lazers, then you can't shoot for a while...

And there's nothing like when your ship has been badly hit, you have no insturment panels, no radar, targetting, shields, other cockpit panels... you're nearly flying blind. If you can then manage to survive... its really cool. I thought it was great that ship damage wasn't just cosmetic -- get hit and you can take damage that will greatly affect the rest of the mission, generally for the worse...

[OB1]

No, its just too dumbed down to be as fun as real space sims.

How does Freelancer have deeper combat than the X-Wing series? I don't see any way that that is possible.

The combat itself is deeper. The combat in X-Wing is just shoot, turn real slowly, shoot, turn, repeat.

But also because they are quite long and challenging...

Not that long. It should only take a couple of months to beat them.

Why do you never believe me when I'm joking? It gets frusterating...

You're not a joking kind of person.

But as I said, the power management is absolutely central to the gameplay and without it the game would be a shell of what it is... no way would it be half as fun...

But then it's just a power management game and not a space combat one.

I played through the demo and don't remember that ever happening.

Why am I not surprised?

So? I'm talking about TIE Fighter mostly here, a game I have put a lot of hours into...

And you make it seem like the power management is optional, or added, or something! It is the heart of the entire gameplay system, and makes the whole game work! Combat? Yes, you do a lot of it... but the combat would be RADICALLY different without that power system, as you know if you've played these games as much as you say.

You don't get what I'm saying. Again. What I'm telling you is that the power management is there is to make the combat somewhat complex. Yes it is important, but only because that's the only way they could make it more complex.

Can't agree there, given how I love TIE Fighter's fighter controls, and think that the X-Wing series has the best flight model in the genre.

I just love how the planes fly, how they feel, the pace and complexity of the combat... its all done nearly perfectly...

Oh yeah, and you misrepresent it so badly there... this isn't a case of 'good controls' vs 'bad controls'. Its two totally different, diametrically opposing styles -- simple and easy to target and shoot versus much harder to target and shoot. I happen to love the complexity of the latter system...

Did I find Freelancer's combat fun? Yeah, but it has NO sense of immersion. I don't feel like I'm flying the ship... I feel like I'm flying a ship in a action game or something. What's so great about space sims is that they really make you feel like you're THERE! That's another way that the mouse system totally fails, in addition to all the ones I've said so far...

Oh pul-leez, you're using a cheap little joystick to play the games! It doesn't feel like you're in an actual spaceship, just like playing Pong with a joysick didn't make me feel like I was a real tennis player or anything like that.

It is absolutely about bad control vs. good control. In Freelancer you have to fight the good enemy AI (a few hours into the game), while in X-Wing you have to fight the crappy controls. It's as simple as that.

Cheap? CHEAP? Uhh... you are insane. Its called strategy. Strategy. Its about making the game more complex and deep... in a way that adds a lot of complexity and fun to the simulation. X-Wing with no power management would be a much simpler game... but by making you manage your lazers, shields, and engines, it achieves good depth in a way that is fun. Well, fun to me anyway... I always liked the power management systems. If you're low on shields you move over power from lazers, then you can't shoot for a while...

And there's nothing like when your ship has been badly hit, you have no insturment panels, no radar, targetting, shields, other cockpit panels... you're nearly flying blind. If you can then manage to survive... its really cool. I thought it was great that ship damage wasn't just cosmetic -- get hit and you can take damage that will greatly affect the rest of the mission, generally for the worse...

Then it's all about power management!! The actual combat is very simplistic and very dull, so the only way they could make the game seem complex is by adding in the power management part! If you care about combat then X-Wing is not the game to play. If you care about power managment then it is.

[A Black Falcon]

You don't get what I'm saying. Again. What I'm telling you is that the power management is there is to make the combat somewhat complex. Yes it is important, but only because that's the only way they could make it more complex.

Oh, I get what you are saying, very clearly.

You hate power management.

I, however, think its great and that the depth it adds to flightsims is something that is a big part of what makes the games fun...

The combat itself is deeper. The combat in X-Wing is just shoot, turn real slowly, shoot, turn, repeat.

As opposed to shoot, turn quickly, rotate, shoot?

You're not a joking kind of person.

Actually, sometimes I am. You just refuse to acknowledge it whenever I am joking.. :bang:

Not that long. It should only take a couple of months to beat them.

I should hope by now you know that I play games slowly... :)

Oh pul-leez, you're using a cheap little joystick to play the games! It doesn't feel like you're in an actual spaceship, just like playing Pong with a joysick didn't make me feel like I was a real tennis player or anything like that.

It is absolutely about bad control vs. good control. In Freelancer you have to fight the good enemy AI (a few hours into the game), while in X-Wing you have to fight the crappy controls. It's as simple as that.

Cheap? I was when I first got TIE Fighter, but in '97 I got a nice $50 or $60 joystick... sure its old now, but the MS SideWinder 3D Pro is still a solid, good quality stick. :)

And say what you will but the fact remains using a joystick is more immersive, more challenging, and just plain more fun than a mouse! For me, anyway...

"fight the controls" in X-Wing? Huh? Uhh... no... the controls are not too complex. You just memorize about a dozen keyboard keys and it plays great... I can still remember what most of the important controls in TIE Fighter are... so I have no idea what you mean about fighting the controls. Complex? Sure! But its got lots of stuff to control, so that's understandable... and once you get up the learning curve its no problem. As for turning the ship in combat... they turn slowly? Well.. yeah... sorta. When they are moving fast they turn much wider and are harder to get behind someone, then when you slow down you react better... but I think the turning is great. The game works great with the ships controlling at the speed they do now... changing it would NOT be a good idea. I wouldn't want X-Wings to turn fast!

[OB1]

Oh, I get what you are saying, very clearly.

You hate power management.

I, however, think its great and that the depth it adds to flightsims is something that is a big part of what makes the games fun...

No no, I like the power management as it adds a lot to the game, but what I am saying is that it's really a seperate thing from combat and that the combat itself is very dull.

As opposed to shoot, turn quickly, rotate, shoot?

As opposed to accelerate, strafe, slide, brake, turbo, all while being right on the tail of an enemy (depending on how smart he is, of course) like you see in movies and such. The combat in Freelancer is more like the Jango vs. Obi-Wan space battle in AotC. Just imagine what AotC would have been like if the combat were like TIE Fighter. :sleep:

Actually, sometimes I am. You just refuse to acknowledge it whenever I am joking..

They're not exactly laugh-out-loud jokes...

I should hope by now you know that I play games slowly...

Yes, which is why I'm saying that the game themselves aren't nearly that long.

Cheap? I was when I first got TIE Fighter, but in '97 I got a nice $50 or $60 joystick... sure its old now, but the MS SideWinder 3D Pro is still a solid, good quality stick.

Cheap compared to real flight sticks that are in real planes.

And say what you will but the fact remains using a joystick is more immersive, more challenging, and just plain more fun than a mouse! For me, anyway...

Sure using a joystick can be more immersive just like using a racing wheel with Gran Turismo makes it a much better game, but then I definitely would not want to play Mario Kart or F-Zero GX with a racing wheel because they were made with a controller in mind and work very well with them. I do not miss using my racing wheel when I play MK or FZ-GX.

"fight the controls" in X-Wing? Huh? Uhh... no... the controls are not too complex. You just memorize about a dozen keyboard keys and it plays great... I can still remember what most of the important controls in TIE Fighter are... so I have no idea what you mean about fighting the controls. Complex? Sure! But its got lots of stuff to control, so that's understandable... and once you get up the learning curve its no problem. As for turning the ship in combat... they turn slowly? Well.. yeah... sorta. When they are moving fast they turn much wider and are harder to get behind someone, then when you slow down you react better... but I think the turning is great. The game works great with the ships controlling at the speed they do now... changing it would NOT be a good idea. I wouldn't want X-Wings to turn fast!

You are fighting the controls more in the X-Wing games then you are fighting the actual enemy ships. Since the controls are so slow you're really battling with that instead of the enemy craft.

[A Black Falcon]

No no, I like the power management as it adds a lot to the game, but what I am saying is that it's really a seperate thing from combat and that the combat itself is very dull.

I don't see how you can possibly seperate the combat from the power management. The combat without it wouldn't just be simpler -- it'd be changed beyond any recognition of what it is. It wouldn't even remotely be like the combat as it is... you can't just take it apart like that!

They're not exactly laugh-out-loud jokes...

I'm not very good at that kind of thing...

Yes, which is why I'm saying that the game themselves aren't nearly that long.

True... but still, they're pretty long as far as linear games go, you can't deny that!

Cheap compared to real flight sticks that are in real planes.

I know... :)

But still, its leaps and bounds better than keyboard and mouse.

Sure using a joystick can be more immersive just like using a racing wheel with Gran Turismo makes it a much better game, but then I definitely would not want to play Mario Kart or F-Zero GX with a racing wheel because they were made with a controller in mind and work very well with them. I do not miss using my racing wheel when I play MK or FZ-GX.

Neither do I, but I'm sure that if I liked more realistic racing games I'd want a wheel... just like how I don't use a joystick for Rogue Squadron, since its made for a gamepad, but I do for X-Wing, since its made for a joystick...

You are fighting the controls more in the X-Wing games then you are fighting the actual enemy ships. Since the controls are so slow you're really battling with that instead of the enemy craft.

I just can't see characterizing the combat in X-Wing like that at all...

[OB1]

I don't see how you can possibly seperate the combat from the power management. The combat without it wouldn't just be simpler -- it'd be changed beyond any recognition of what it is. It wouldn't even remotely be like the combat as it is... you can't just take it apart like that!

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Ok, try to pay attention this time!!

The power management is integral to the combat in the X-Wing games, obviously, but it's the only thing that makes the combat complex. The actual combat (meaning aiming, shooting, turning, etc.) is actually very simple and dull.

I'm not very good at that kind of thing...

That's okay...

True... but still, they're pretty long as far as linear games go, you can't deny that!

When did I say otherwise? I just said that compared to non-linear space sims they're extremely short.

I know...

But still, its leaps and bounds better than keyboard and mouse.

That depends on what the game is. Remember my Gran Turismo and F-Zero example.

Neither do I, but I'm sure that if I liked more realistic racing games I'd want a wheel... just like how I don't use a joystick for Rogue Squadron, since its made for a gamepad, but I do for X-Wing, since its made for a joystick...

Right, and Freelancer was made for the keyboard and mouse and would be impossible to play well with a joystick. The controls were built around the advantages of a keyboard and mouse; some things that couldn't be done with a joystick.

I just can't see characterizing the combat in X-Wing like that at all...

I don't expect you to.

[A Black Falcon]

The power management is integral to the combat in the X-Wing games, obviously, but it's the only thing that makes the combat complex. The actual combat (meaning aiming, shooting, turning, etc.) is actually very simple and dull.

But the power management is a huge part of the combat! It is included in "the actual combat"! It has to be, since they are so integrated! I just don't see how you can seperate them like that and make any sense...

And anyway, the dogfighting is a lot of fun in that game... not just power changing, but the dogfighting itsself -- chasing enemies, trying to get behind them, etc... its a lot of fun! Not dull by any stretch of the imagination... I certainly never have gotten bored of chasing and shooting at enemies... :)

When did I say otherwise? I just said that compared to non-linear space sims they're extremely short.

Okay... but I doubt very much that they are 'extremely' short compared to anything. Except maybe MMORPGs...

Right, and Freelancer was made for the keyboard and mouse and would be impossible to play well with a joystick. The controls were built around the advantages of a keyboard and mouse; some things that couldn't be done with a joystick.

Sorry... but no. It is a clear extension of joystick-based Wing Commander combat! Modified a lot? Yes. But not so much that it is unrecognizable...

[OB1]

But the power management is a huge part of the combat! It is included in "the actual combat"! It has to be, since they are so integrated! I just don't see how you can seperate them like that and make any sense...

And anyway, the dogfighting is a lot of fun in that game... not just power changing, but the dogfighting itsself -- chasing enemies, trying to get behind them, etc... its a lot of fun! Not dull by any stretch of the imagination... I certainly never have gotten bored of chasing and shooting at enemies...

:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

For purposes of this debate, you can seperate the two!!

The dogfighting itself is crap! Very dull, very slow combat. If that's your thing then fine, go ahead and like all the crappy dogfighting you want. :ass:

Okay... but I doubt very much that they are 'extremely' short compared to anything. Except maybe MMORPGs...

No, they are most definitely extremely short compared to non-linear space sims.

Sorry... but no. It is a clear extension of joystick-based Wing Commander combat! Modified a lot? Yes. But not so much that it is unrecognizable...

Sorry... but yes, you're talking about of your ass now. You even said yourself that the controls are completely different, stupid! The way the ships control is as different from Wing Commander and X-Wing as Mario Sunshine is to Eternal Darkness. The difference is huge, and using a joystick would not work at all.

[A Black Falcon]

For purposes of this debate, you can seperate the two!!

The dogfighting itself is crap! Very dull, very slow combat. If that's your thing then fine, go ahead and like all the crappy dogfighting you want.

But when you seperate them the combat doesn't just get simpler, it becomes a totally different thing -- managing your lazer and shield power is so important to combat that without it yes, the game would be fairly simple. But it also wouldn't play anything like X-Wing, so its a pointless arguement!

Oh yeah, and its Wing Commander/Starlancer/Freelancer that has stupid dogfighting, not X-Wing. Unlike the dogfighting in those games, X-Wing's is actually fun and challenging...

So you turn slow, sorta. So? That's how they handle! The planes feel perfect that way!

No, they are most definitely extremely short compared to non-linear space sims.

No.

Sorry... but yes, you're talking about of your ass now. You even said yourself that the controls are completely different, stupid! The way the ships control is as different from Wing Commander and X-Wing as Mario Sunshine is to Eternal Darkness. The difference is huge, and using a joystick would not work at all.

the CONTROLS are different. The way the ships fly? The pace and style of the combat? All that stuff is pure Wing Commander, no question.

Using a joystick would be good, and I don't think it'd mean a change THAT huge...

[OB1]

But when you seperate them the combat doesn't just get simpler, it becomes a totally different thing -- managing your lazer and shield power is so important to combat that without it yes, the game would be fairly simple. But it also wouldn't play anything like X-Wing, so its a pointless arguement!

Oh yeah, and its Wing Commander/Starlancer/Freelancer that has stupid dogfighting, not X-Wing. Unlike the dogfighting in those games, X-Wing's is actually fun and challenging...

So you turn slow, sorta. So? That's how they handle! The planes feel perfect that way!

You're missing my point, as usual. Am I going to have to go on for another ten pages before you begin to understand what I'm saying (like with the text-based game debate)???

The dogfighting in the X-Wing series is very dull. It's slow, boring, and the enemy AI is crap. The only thing making it interesting is the power managment. X-Wing is most definitely not the dogfighter's game.

No.

Great rebuttal!

So remind me again, how many open-ended space sims have you played for more than a few minutes??

Yeah, that's what I thought.

the CONTROLS are different. The way the ships fly? The pace and style of the combat? All that stuff is pure Wing Commander, no question.

Using a joystick would be good, and I don't think it'd mean a change THAT huge...

You're absolutely insane. The combat in Wing Commander is just the combat of X-Wing but without the power management. The combat in Freelancer is like no other space/flight combat game ever made.

[A Black Falcon]

You're missing my point, as usual. Am I going to have to go on for another ten pages before you begin to understand what I'm saying (like with the text-based game debate)???

The dogfighting in the X-Wing series is very dull. It's slow, boring, and the enemy AI is crap. The only thing making it interesting is the power managment. X-Wing is most definitely not the dogfighter's game.

I'm not missing your point, its just totally wrong. X-Wing dogfighting isn't dull! Not even close! Freelancer's dogfighting bored me, so did Wing Commander and Starlancer... but X-Wing? Absolutely not. I love it... 'dull' it most certainly isn't. Its not that slow -- I'd say the pace is just right. Boring? Not for me, that's for sure... and the enemy AI isn't the best, but its good enough... they dogfight pretty well, I'd say. I certainly have always had a lot of fun dogfighting in those games.

Great rebuttal!

So remind me again, how many open-ended space sims have you played for more than a few minutes??

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Minuites? I played Freelancer for a couple of hours... enough to see what the combat was like, certainly.

You're absolutely insane. The combat in Wing Commander is just the combat of X-Wing but without the power management. The combat in Freelancer is like no other space/flight combat game ever made.

Uhh... different from other space combat games? Maybe... but its not TOTALLY new. As I said, I'd say that its got a combat that takes Wing Commander, adds some Descent, and changes it a bit... I know you think it is nothing like Descent, but the connection seems pretty clear to me...

Oh, and Wing Commander isn't X-Wing without power management. The ships contol quite differently in Wing Commander! And the whole style of the missions is so different... the ships aren't just X-Wings with no power management. And the missions... well their whole style is very different from the X-Wing mission style. (ie the way they are laid out, how often and where you fight, etc...) I don't see how you can just simplify the differences between those series to one thing... it makes no sense!

Oh, and as it went on the Wing Commander controls got somewhat more complex, but the missions stay simple in comparison to X-Wing, I'd say.

[OB1]

I'm not missing your point, its just totally wrong. X-Wing dogfighting isn't dull! Not even close! Freelancer's dogfighting bored me, so did Wing Commander and Starlancer... but X-Wing? Absolutely not. I love it... 'dull' it most certainly isn't. Its not that slow -- I'd say the pace is just right. Boring? Not for me, that's for sure... and the enemy AI isn't the best, but its good enough... they dogfight pretty well, I'd say. I certainly have always had a lot of fun dogfighting in those games.

You're obviously not a dogfighting kind of person. The only reason you like the X-Wing combat is because of the power management.

Minuites? I played Freelancer for a couple of hours... enough to see what the combat was like, certainly.

Oh wow, so because you played Freelancer for a couple of hours you know how much longer non-linear space sims are than linear ones?

Uhh... different from other space combat games? Maybe... but its not TOTALLY new. As I said, I'd say that its got a combat that takes Wing Commander, adds some Descent, and changes it a bit... I know you think it is nothing like Descent, but the connection seems pretty clear to me...

Well let's see... the ships control nothing like the ships in either WC or Descent, the way you shoot is nothing like WC or Descent, the way you dogfight is nothing like WC or Descent... so yeah, you're totally right! They're exactly alike!

Oh, and Wing Commander isn't X-Wing without power management. The ships contol quite differently in Wing Commander! And the whole style of the missions is so different... the ships aren't just X-Wings with no power management. And the missions... well their whole style is very different from the X-Wing mission style. (ie the way they are laid out, how often and where you fight, etc...) I don't see how you can just simplify the differences between those series to one thing... it makes no sense!

Oh, and as it went on the Wing Commander controls got somewhat more complex, but the missions stay simple in comparison to X-Wing, I'd say.

I'm talking about the dogfighting, not the missions. Wing Commander's combat really is just X-Wing/TIE Fighter's combat but without the power management. Sure the WC ships control better but everything else is the same. Both games have very dull dogfighting.

[A Black Falcon]

You're obviously not a dogfighting kind of person. The only reason you like the X-Wing combat is because of the power management.

No, I've always loved the actual combat in TIE Fighter as well, not just the power management and the whole gameplay experience (its Star Wars and you're the bad guys!)... just like how I never liked Wing Commander's nearly as much. Its just too simple!

... okay, yes, the power management is a big part of why I love TIE Fighter /X-Wing. But I DO like the combat itsself! Definitely.

Oh wow, so because you played Freelancer for a couple of hours you know how much longer non-linear space sims are than linear ones?

No, but the reviews didn't make it sound THAT long... long? Yes, but mostly because of the optional stuff, not the main game...

Well let's see... the ships control nothing like the ships in either WC or Descent, the way you shoot is nothing like WC or Descent, the way you dogfight is nothing like WC or Descent... so yeah, you're totally right! They're exactly alike!

No, its not exactly like either of those games, but the control scheme (mouse/keyboard to fly in 3d space) was pioneered by Descent... and its by the people who made Wing Commander, so the connections there are obvious! In that demo mission where you have to go out and find the pirates... it made me think "Wing Commander" SO strongly... well, except for the combat, of course. Even Wing Commander has more complex combat than Freelancer... it has VERY simple combat. Now... I know, the game is good because of all the extras, not the combat itsself. But the fact remains -- the combat is so, so simple!

I'm talking about the dogfighting, not the missions. Wing Commander's combat really is just X-Wing/TIE Fighter's combat but without the power management. Sure the WC ships control better but everything else is the same. Both games have very dull dogfighting.

This arguement is really making me want to play TIE Fighter... reminding me of how much I love that game...

For a whole lot of reasons, from the fact that it was my first space sim of course, but also the mission design (I like the mission style of the game...), the combat, story, controls, etc...

When I played X-Wing Alliance by far the biggest 'problem' was that the keyboard keys were all different, forcing me to learn a whole new keyboard layout... I don't think I ever fully got it down, which is part of why I still like TIE Fighter better -- that one I have memorized the keyboard layout of. :)

As for Wing Commander... haven't played lots of those games, but based on what I have played of various games in the series it just isn't very interesting. I never even got interested enough in StarLancer to finish the demo, for example...

[OB1]

No, I've always loved the actual combat in TIE Fighter as well, not just the power management and the whole gameplay experience (its Star Wars and you're the bad guys!)... just like how I never liked Wing Commander's nearly as much. Its just too simple!

... okay, yes, the power management is a big part of why I love TIE Fighter /X-Wing. But I DO like the combat itsself! Definitely.

Well nobody's going to stop you from liking it...

No, but the reviews didn't make it sound THAT long... long? Yes, but mostly because of the optional stuff, not the main game...

"Optional" stuff??!! On the contrary, the main mission is much more optional than the rest of the game. The main "story mode" is about as short as a linear space sim, but that's not even a tenth of the game. The "meat" of Freelancer and all other non-linear space sims is the exploration, freelancing aspect of it. Freelancer is Elite but with a main story mode slapped on, which is most certainly not the main part of the game. You are very confused, ABF.

No, its not exactly like either of those games, but the control scheme (mouse/keyboard to fly in 3d space) was pioneered by Descent... and its by the people who made Wing Commander, so the connections there are obvious! In that demo mission where you have to go out and find the pirates... it made me think "Wing Commander" SO strongly... well, except for the combat, of course. Even Wing Commander has more complex combat than Freelancer... it has VERY simple combat. Now... I know, the game is good because of all the extras, not the combat itsself. But the fact remains -- the combat is so, so simple!

First of all, Freelancer was made by most of the team that did the Privateer games, not Wing Commander. And secondly, you're nuts. But you already know that (or at least I hope you do). Wing Commander's combat is insanely simple; it's just TIE Fighter but without the power management. You fly, you see something zip past you, you shoot, turn, repeat. In Freelancer you are actually battling decent-to-good enemy AI (which makes a HUGE difference), you have to manage your weapons much more carefully than Wing Commander (equiping certain lasers, missiles, and mines is key, and then switching between which weapons to use against different enemy shielding is very important), you can actually chase an enemy like you're supposed to (unlike the crappy "sit, shoot real fast, then turn all the way around to find the enemy" combat seen in the X-Wing series and every other space sim), you have to learn how to effectively use the side boosters and then of course the difficult-to-learn sliding technique (which I'm 100% positive you didn't do). The stuff in the demo was just the very basics of combat, but of course you try to pretend that you know a lot about the game.

The main difference between my side and your side is that I actually have a lot of experience with all of the games in question, while you do not. The only thing you have at your side is plain old ignorance, as per usual.

This arguement is really making me want to play TIE Fighter... reminding me of how much I love that game...

For a whole lot of reasons, from the fact that it was my first space sim of course, but also the mission design (I like the mission style of the game...), the combat, story, controls, etc...

When I played X-Wing Alliance by far the biggest 'problem' was that the keyboard keys were all different, forcing me to learn a whole new keyboard layout... I don't think I ever fully got it down, which is part of why I still like TIE Fighter better -- that one I have memorized the keyboard layout of.

As for Wing Commander... haven't played lots of those games, but based on what I have played of various games in the series it just isn't very interesting. I never even got interested enough in StarLancer to finish the demo, for example...

That's very sad, and only further proves my point. You only have experience with the X-Wing games, so it's very sad to see you trying to argue about a genre that you've played so little of.

[A Black Falcon]

Well nobody's going to stop you from liking it...

Me and many, many others.

"Optional" stuff??!! On the contrary, the main mission is much more optional than the rest of the game. The main "story mode" is about as short as a linear space sim, but that's not even a tenth of the game. The "meat" of Freelancer and all other non-linear space sims is the exploration, freelancing aspect of it. Freelancer is Elite but with a main story mode slapped on, which is most certainly not the main part of the game. You are very confused, ABF.

If the game had no main campaign or somethign and it was just trading, then the trading would be the main game. But here, there IS a main story... sure, you can avoid it and do the trading and stuff, but there IS one if you want to finish the game... so while the other stuff is the majority of the gameplay its still optional. :)

That's very sad, and only further proves my point. You only have experience with the X-Wing games, so it's very sad to see you trying to argue about a genre that you've played so little of.

I also liked Freespace. A lot... I have Freespace 2. Great game. And I liked some others I've played, such as Tachyon. So I would not say I have only played the X-Wing games.

First of all, Freelancer was made by most of the team that did the Privateer games, not Wing Commander. And secondly, you're nuts. But you already know that (or at least I hope you do). Wing Commander's combat is insanely simple; it's just TIE Fighter but without the power management. You fly, you see something zip past you, you shoot, turn, repeat. In Freelancer you are actually battling decent-to-good enemy AI (which makes a HUGE difference), you have to manage your weapons much more carefully than Wing Commander (equiping certain lasers, missiles, and mines is key, and then switching between which weapons to use against different enemy shielding is very important), you can actually chase an enemy like you're supposed to (unlike the crappy "sit, shoot real fast, then turn all the way around to find the enemy" combat seen in the X-Wing series and every other space sim), you have to learn how to effectively use the side boosters and then of course the difficult-to-learn sliding technique (which I'm 100% positive you didn't do). The stuff in the demo was just the very basics of combat, but of course you try to pretend that you know a lot about the game.

The main difference between my side and your side is that I actually have a lot of experience with all of the games in question, while you do not. The only thing you have at your side is plain old ignorance, as per usual.

Privateer's combat is VERY similar to Wing Commander. Its other stuff that makes the games different... I have played Privateer 2, sp I know that.

Oh, and most standard flight sims have that in common -- you fly, turn, find and target enemy, chase them (generally on the radar, since they quickly go off screen), shoot them when the target light lights up... learn to lead targets... each game of course makes the experience different in many ways, but that's the formula. And its a very good one that works well...

As for Freelancer, the combat IS insanely simple. That's not just based on my impressions -- its also based on reading reviews of the game. They all say that the combat is very, very simple... not that that's necessarially a bad thing, because its different and can be fun, but that it is simple, mouse-driven combat. No review of the game tries to say that in dogfighting depth it matches a real space sim, because it doesn't!

If you like FPSes, or dislike the genre, I would expect people to really like the combat... if you like the genre I'd think people would tolerate it but not like it a lot... but you seem to prefer it to standard combat in this genre. Strange, given how its simpler and less immersive and everything else... the rest of the game looks quite good, but the combat? Tolerable... but not that great.

Now... the combat well may be deeper than Wing Commander. But that is hardly something to be so proud of, given how Wing Commander is one of the most action-focused and simplistic games in the genre...

But deeper than X-Wing, Freespace, or something? No way!

(unlike the crappy "sit, shoot real fast, then turn all the way around to find the enemy" combat seen in the X-Wing series and every other space sim)

You make it sound like you look in space for the other ship, when all you do is track it on radar and turn towards the dot... turn, fire, accelerate, fire, turn, brake (if you're going a lot faster than them you've got to slow down to be able to hit them much...), etc... switch weapons, reinforce weak shields...

Or, of course, in the missions I'm in in TIE Fighter, stay way away and shoot missiles at them (gotta love the Missile Boat missions...). :)

Unlike, correct. Freelancer is unlike standard combat in the genre.

Better? Not in a million years.


Oh... and how about I-War? Those games are interesting... they have realistic flight models (ie gravity works like it should in space...)

[OB1]

Me and many, many others.

Oh yes, I'm sure.

If the game had no main campaign or somethign and it was just trading, then the trading would be the main game. But here, there IS a main story... sure, you can avoid it and do the trading and stuff, but there IS one if you want to finish the game... so while the other stuff is the majority of the gameplay its still optional.

That has got to be one of the dumbest things I've heard from you in a long time. Most of the people who bought this game are those who were fans of Elite and Privateer, and they got it because of the open-endedness and not for the simple story mode. There's a main story of Morrowind but I barely even touched it because it wasn't neccessary. Saying that the portion of the game that offers the most amount of playtime is just "optional" is absolutely insane.

I also liked Freespace. A lot... I have Freespace 2. Great game. And I liked some others I've played, such as Tachyon. So I would not say I have only played the X-Wing games.

So you've played three other space sims aside from X-Wing? WOW!

Privateer's combat is VERY similar to Wing Commander. Its other stuff that makes the games different... I have played Privateer 2, sp I know that.

I'm not talking about Privateer's combat. I'm very well of the fact that Privateer's combat is just as dull as Wing Commander's, but that wasn't the main draw of the game and it has nothing to do with this debate.

Oh, and most standard flight sims have that in common -- you fly, turn, find and target enemy, chase them (generally on the radar, since they quickly go off screen), shoot them when the target light lights up... learn to lead targets... each game of course makes the experience different in many ways, but that's the formula. And its a very good one that works well...

It's an archaic formula that is not fun anymore.

As for Freelancer, the combat IS insanely simple. That's not just based on my impressions -- its also based on reading reviews of the game. They all say that the combat is very, very simple... not that that's necessarially a bad thing, because its different and can be fun, but that it is simple, mouse-driven combat. No review of the game tries to say that in dogfighting depth it matches a real space sim, because it doesn't!

That's complete bullshit, but I expect as much from you. The combat isn't extremely complex, of course, but it is many times more complex than the Wing Commanders of this world. There's no power management to make things "complex" but the raw dogfighting is unparalleled. It's extremely fast and gets very tough a little while into the game, and certainly puts down the very slow, boring combat of games like Wing Commander and TIE Fighter to shame.

If you like FPSes, or dislike the genre, I would expect people to really like the combat... if you like the genre I'd think people would tolerate it but not like it a lot... but you seem to prefer it to standard combat in this genre. Strange, given how its simpler and less immersive and everything else... the rest of the game looks quite good, but the combat? Tolerable... but not that great.

Oh please, like you know anything about combat in games. You like the ridiculously simple and tedious combat of Oni, you actually bought Mace for the N64, you enjoyed that crappy, mindless shooter Serious Sam, and you've never played a game with a complex combat system for more than a couple of hours in your entire life. The X-Wing series does not have complex combat. They have somewhat complex power and weapons management during combat, which while being done during combat is almost seperate from it. Your idea of complex combat is something very simple (look, shoot, turn) but with something complex added to it (like power management). If F-Zero had complex power management then it would simply have more complex power management, but certainly wouldn't be a deeper racer than Gran Turismo since GT's racing requires more skill in terms of braking, sliding, and handling.

Now... the combat well may be deeper than Wing Commander. But that is hardly something to be so proud of, given how Wing Commander is one of the most action-focused and simplistic games in the genre...

Boy, you sure stick to your views alright! Just a few posts up you stated "Even Wing Commander has more complex combat than Freelancer... it has VERY simple combat", which is the exact opposite of what you are saying right now. It's obvious that you're unsure of your opinion and really don't know what the hell you're talking about.

But deeper than X-Wing, Freespace, or something? No way!

Power management aside, yes.

You make it sound like you look in space for the other ship, when all you do is track it on radar and turn towards the dot... turn, fire, accelerate, fire, turn, brake (if you're going a lot faster than them you've got to slow down to be able to hit them much...), etc... switch weapons, reinforce weak shields...

And this is from your what... two hours of demo playtime? Listen buddy, maybe it would be good for you to actually know what you're talking about before you get into an argument. Having to argue with someone who has such little knowledge about the thing he is arguijg about is extremely tiresome. You almost never know anything about the topics you are arguing about.

Or, of course, in the missions I'm in in TIE Fighter, stay way away and shoot missiles at them (gotta love the Missile Boat missions...).

Unlike, correct. Freelancer is unlike standard combat in the genre.

Better? Not in a million years.

Right, because you can't fire missiles in Freelancer! No sirree!

Really, how much longer can you go on? This is far worse than any debate I've had with nickdaddyg. At least he admitted that he knew nothing about the subject at hand once in a while.

[A Black Falcon]

Oh yes, I'm sure.

Are you doubting that lots of people love space sims? Are you insane?

That has got to be one of the dumbest things I've heard from you in a long time. Most of the people who bought this game are those who were fans of Elite and Privateer, and they got it because of the open-endedness and not for the simple story mode. There's a main story of Morrowind but I barely even touched it because it wasn't neccessary. Saying that the portion of the game that offers the most amount of playtime is just "optional" is absolutely insane.

But it IS optional! I never said that it was the majority of the gameplay or something... actually, I said it wasn't. I just said that its optional... whcih IS technically correct...

So you've played three other space sims aside from X-Wing? WOW!

I've played more than that. And none of them are as good as TIE Fighter.

I'm not talking about Privateer's combat. I'm very well of the fact that Privateer's combat is just as dull as Wing Commander's, but that wasn't the main draw of the game and it has nothing to do with this debate.

Ah, but you said that since it was from the Privateer team the combat wasn't Wing Commander-eque... now you prove yourself wrong by admitting that that team's previous games had Wing Commander style combat...

It's an archaic formula that is not fun anymore.

Its a classic formula that works just as well now as it did ten years ago.

That's complete bullshit, but I expect as much from you. The combat isn't extremely complex, of course, but it is many times more complex than the Wing Commanders of this world. There's no power management to make things "complex" but the raw dogfighting is unparalleled. It's extremely fast and gets very tough a little while into the game, and certainly puts down the very slow, boring combat of games like Wing Commander and TIE Fighter to shame.

I just don't understand you. I've read plenty of reviews of this game, and played it for several hours... all of that agrees -- the combat can be fun, and might be challenging sometimes, but in no way is it either complex or very deep. No power management, no radar, you can shoot at anyone on the screen, etc... its so simple! Sure, I'm sure it gets hard... but that isn't the point here. Harder simple combat is still simple combat.

Oh, and without joystick control, radar, or power management, the combat is lacking so much... there's only so much they can do to make up for it, and while they do what they can pretty well its just not enough to even remotely convince me that it was a good idea to do the game that way.

I just have vastly more fun using a joystick to rotate my ship, aim at enemies, track them, and shoot them down than I do using WASD and the mouse to move (up/down/left/right/sidestepping (something that starfighters should NEVER be able to do! Stupid FPS-inspired controls...)! By far!

IGN's review mentions Diablo (in that the combat is simple but other things make the game worth playing), and I certainly see their point.

Once again, you are taking personal prejudices and applying them to others like they should be the same for everyone.

Just because YOU dislike the combat in real space flight sims doesn't mean that it is BAD. Or that OTHERS should also dislike it. It just means YOU dislike it. Nothing more...

Oh please, like you know anything about combat in games. You like the ridiculously simple and tedious combat of Oni, you actually bought Mace for the N64, you enjoyed that crappy, mindless shooter Serious Sam, and you've never played a game with a complex combat system for more than a couple of hours in your entire life. The X-Wing series does not have complex combat. They have somewhat complex power and weapons management during combat, which while being done during combat is almost seperate from it. Your idea of complex combat is something very simple (look, shoot, turn) but with something complex added to it (like power management). If F-Zero had complex power management then it would simply have more complex power management, but certainly wouldn't be a deeper racer than Gran Turismo since GT's racing requires more skill in terms of braking, sliding, and handling.

Gran Turismo just isn't fun... I've played it a few times... maybe it just requires more time and patience, I don't know. I have played some other sim-like racers, though, and find them hard to get used to... not bad games, just hard to learn to play well.

Oh, and so you have played lots of true flight sims, then? I didn't know you enjoyed that genre... because if you haven't, that whole thing there is pretty hypocritical...

Also... I have played a lot of games. Have I played lots of time in those games? No, mostly it was just demos... but I have played a lot of demos, over the four-plus years I got PC Gamer and other mags with demodiscs... including some more sim-like racers. I quickly get frusterated at spinning into the dirt on every turn and give up... as for flight sims, I've liked some of the more arcadish ones, but the hardcore ones are just too high on the learning curve scale to be worth learning...

Just because I haven't played as many hours in some of these games doesn't mean that I have no clue what they are about. Oh, and I could turn this around -- have you played most of the games that I have in these genres? I doubt that... :)


As for combat complexity. I know X-Wing doesn't have the deepest combat. If it was a hardcore sim it'd be far harder to play... none of the space sims are hardcore sims. The closest things there are are I-War and Battlecruiser... so comparing them directly to other genres which DO have lots of harder-core sims is just wrong. X-Wing may be simple in comparison to Falcon 4.0, but not especially when compared to I-War... which unlike Falcon is in the same subgenre.

Oh, and I have played I-War, but not Battlecruiser.

Boy, you sure stick to your views alright! Just a few posts up you stated "Even Wing Commander has more complex combat than Freelancer... it has VERY simple combat", which is the exact opposite of what you are saying right now. It's obvious that you're unsure of your opinion and really don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Well... that depends. Freelancer is deeper than a Wing Commander I, but Wing Commander Prophecy or StarLancer? I'm not so sure...

Power management aside, yes.

Only in your mind where you see nonexistant complexity...

And this is from your what... two hours of demo playtime? Listen buddy, maybe it would be good for you to actually know what you're talking about before you get into an argument. Having to argue with someone who has such little knowledge about the thing he is arguijg about is extremely tiresome. You almost never know anything about the topics you are arguing about.

Huh? That thing you quoted there was a description of TIE Fighter's combat... I've spent dozens of hours in that game! And I was replying to a quote specifically about X-Wing! So your 'you haven't played that' thing it totally wrong here, OB1.

Right, because you can't fire missiles in Freelancer! No sirree!

Really, how much longer can you go on? This is far worse than any debate I've had with nickdaddyg. At least he admitted that he knew nothing about the subject at hand once in a while.

Never said that, I was just saying that's where I am in the game, that's all...

[OB1]

Are you doubting that lots of people love space sims? Are you insane?

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

I doubt your claim that everyone prefers X-Wing's combat style.

But it IS optional! I never said that it was the majority of the gameplay or something... actually, I said it wasn't. I just said that its optional... whcih IS technically correct...

ALL games are optional! Nobody is forcing you to play games, and when you play Mario Sunshine nobody is forcing you to jump, either!

I've played more than that. And none of them are as good as TIE Fighter.

You haven't played enough space sims long enough.

Ah, but you said that since it was from the Privateer team the combat wasn't Wing Commander-eque... now you prove yourself wrong by admitting that that team's previous games had Wing Commander style combat...

Boy, you have extremely poor comprehension skills! Only some of the Wing Commander designers worked on the Privateer games, and I never said anything about the team's previous game having WC-esque combat. You're continuing to make shit up, like always.

Its a classic formula that works just as well now as it did ten years ago.

Um, no.

I just don't understand you. I've read plenty of reviews of this game, and played it for several hours... all of that agrees -- the combat can be fun, and might be challenging sometimes, but in no way is it either complex or very deep. No power management, no radar, you can shoot at anyone on the screen, etc... its so simple! Sure, I'm sure it gets hard... but that isn't the point here. Harder simple combat is still simple combat.

Ooh, you read a review from crappy Gamespot and you played the game for a whole TWO HOURS! That sure makes you more of an authority on the subject than me!

What on earth does radar have to do with complexity?? The lack of a radar in the game actually makes it tougher, as finding enemies isn't as simple as looking at a little radar.

Oh, and without joystick control, radar, or power management, the combat is lacking so much... there's only so much they can do to make up for it, and while they do what they can pretty well its just not enough to even remotely convince me that it was a good idea to do the game that way.

I just have vastly more fun using a joystick to rotate my ship, aim at enemies, track them, and shoot them down than I do using WASD and the mouse to move (up/down/left/right/sidestepping (something that starfighters should NEVER be able to do! Stupid FPS-inspired controls...)! By far!

The CONTROLS WERE BUILT AROUND THE MOUSE AND KEYBOARD SET-UP AND WOULD NOT WORK WELL WITH A JOYSTICK!!! How many more times do I have to repeat that before it gets into your thick skull?? You need to switch from flight to using the mouse to navigate the on-screen display seemlessly, and sliding would be impossible with a joystick. Having joystick support just to please a few whiny little punks would have greatly limited the gameplay.

IGN's review mentions Diablo (in that the combat is simple but other things make the game worth playing), and I certainly see their point.

They're referring to how multiplayer works, Einstein.

Once again, you are taking personal prejudices and applying them to others like they should be the same for everyone.

Just because YOU dislike the combat in real space flight sims doesn't mean that it is BAD. Or that OTHERS should also dislike it. It just means YOU dislike it. Nothing more...

YOU are telling ME this??!! Mr. "The combat sucks because I SAY SO!!"??!!!

Example #436,653,879,235 of why ABF is the biggest hypocrite in the world.

Gran Turismo just isn't fun... I've played it a few times... maybe it just requires more time and patience, I don't know. I have played some other sim-like racers, though, and find them hard to get used to... not bad games, just hard to learn to play well.

Wow, I guess the millions of people in the world should stop playing the game because ABF says it's no fun!

Just because you suck at a game doesn't mean that it's bad.

Oh, and so you have played lots of true flight sims, then? I didn't know you enjoyed that genre... because if you haven't, that whole thing there is pretty hypocritical...

Yes, altough I don't like the MS Flight Sims. IL-2 Sturmovik is fun.

Also... I have played a lot of games. Have I played lots of time in those games? No, mostly it was just demos... but I have played a lot of demos, over the four-plus years I got PC Gamer and other mags with demodiscs... including some more sim-like racers. I quickly get frusterated at spinning into the dirt on every turn and give up... as for flight sims, I've liked some of the more arcadish ones, but the hardcore ones are just too high on the learning curve scale to be worth learning...

So real sims are too tough for you. Why doesn't that surprise me?

Just because I haven't played as many hours in some of these games doesn't mean that I have no clue what they are about. Oh, and I could turn this around -- have you played most of the games that I have in these genres? I doubt that...

Uh, yes it does. When you lack experience with the game you are arguing about you look like a complete moron.

As for combat complexity. I know X-Wing doesn't have the deepest combat. If it was a hardcore sim it'd be far harder to play... none of the space sims are hardcore sims. The closest things there are are I-War and Battlecruiser... so comparing them directly to other genres which DO have lots of harder-core sims is just wrong. X-Wing may be simple in comparison to Falcon 4.0, but not especially when compared to I-War... which unlike Falcon is in the same subgenre.

Oh, and I have played I-War, but not Battlecruiser.

The X-Wing series, along with most space sims, has very simple combat. You haven't experienced anything more than the most simple form of Freelancer's combat because you didn't play the game for long enough. I'm also sure that Gamespot didn't get very far.

Well... that depends. Freelancer is deeper than a Wing Commander I, but Wing Commander Prophecy or StarLancer? I'm not so sure...

Well I am sure. WCP and Starlancer have simpler combat than Freelancer, no question about it.

Only in your mind where you see nonexistant complexity...

Correction: I have more experience with these games, I enjoy sim-heavy games more than you do, and I play lots of games from different genres with complex fighting systems. So I'm right.

Huh? That thing you quoted there was a description of TIE Fighter's combat... I've spent dozens of hours in that game! And I was replying to a quote specifically about X-Wing! So your 'you haven't played that' thing it totally wrong here, OB1.

I was referring to your Freelancer remarks.

Never said that, I was just saying that's where I am in the game, that's all...

Riiiight.

[A Black Falcon]

I doubt your claim that everyone prefers X-Wing's combat style.

But I didn't say that, and never implied it! I just said that lots of people like space sims!

ALL games are optional! Nobody is forcing you to play games, and when you play Mario Sunshine nobody is forcing you to jump, either!

Okay, its a dumb point. But its still true. :p

You haven't played enough space sims long enough.

Since 1996 isn't long enough?

Boy, you have extremely poor comprehension skills! Only some of the Wing Commander designers worked on the Privateer games, and I never said anything about the team's previous game having WC-esque combat. You're continuing to make shit up, like always.

Okay, you are right -- I said that it was by the Wing Commander team and was wrong, it wasn't, it was by the Privateer team. But my point still stands... as in, its in the same tradition and the combat is a decendant of those games...

Um, no.

Your claims you like this genre seem ... doubtful ... if you dislike the cornerstones of the genre!

Ooh, you read a review from crappy Gamespot and you played the game for a whole TWO HOURS! That sure makes you more of an authority on the subject than me!

What on earth does radar have to do with complexity?? The lack of a radar in the game actually makes it tougher, as finding enemies isn't as simple as looking at a little radar.

Examples of how it radically alters the genre. And I seem to remember that the game does have a way of tracking some enemies who aren't on the screen, I think...

Oh, one other thing. The third-person viewpoint. That is at least as important as any of those other main factors for why it doesn't work as well... third person is just wrong on so many levels for anything even pretending some kind of immersion!

The CONTROLS WERE BUILT AROUND THE MOUSE AND KEYBOARD SET-UP AND WOULD NOT WORK WELL WITH A JOYSTICK!!! How many more times do I have to repeat that before it gets into your thick skull?? You need to switch from flight to using the mouse to navigate the on-screen display seemlessly, and sliding would be impossible with a joystick. Having joystick support just to please a few whiny little punks would have greatly limited the gameplay.

Limited??? No, I think it would have made it so much more fun... that and a good in-cockpit viewpoint...

They're referring to how multiplayer works, Einstein.

Sorry. You are wrong. Try reading this...

http://pc.ign.com/articles/387/387303p3.html

YOU are telling ME this??!! Mr. "The combat sucks because I SAY SO!!"??!!!

Example #436,653,879,235 of why ABF is the biggest hypocrite in the world.

I try not to grade others based on my opinions in these arguements... you do not.

Wow, I guess the millions of people in the world should stop playing the game because ABF says it's no fun!

Just because you suck at a game doesn't mean that it's bad.

That's exactly what I said, if you read my post!

Yes, altough I don't like the MS Flight Sims. IL-2 Sturmovik is fun.

I have an ancient version of MS Flight Simulator (v3.0), and I used to find it fun to fly around sometimes... not for long periods of time or anything, but its kind of fun. Its just lacking action... :)

So real sims are too tough for you. Why doesn't that surprise me?

Still, I've tried demos of some of them... some I liked. I don't have any true flight sims though because I can't get anywhere near all the games I want to get...

Uh, yes it does. When you lack experience with the game you are arguing about you look like a complete moron.

If I hadn't played the games, maybe... but I have! Less than you... yes, for many of the games. But I HAVE played them.

The X-Wing series, along with most space sims, has very simple combat. You haven't experienced anything more than the most simple form of Freelancer's combat because you didn't play the game for long enough. I'm also sure that Gamespot didn't get very far.

I somehow doubt that IGN and Gamespot stopped after a few hours... sorry, but NO. There is just no sane way to say that Freelancer has deeper combat than mainline space sims.

Well I am sure. WCP and Starlancer have simpler combat than Freelancer, no question about it.

I haven't played either in a long time and never played them for that long, so I can't really comment.

Correction: I have more experience with these games, I enjoy sim-heavy games more than you do, and I play lots of games from different genres with complex fighting systems. So I'm right.

More knowledge with some games does not make you so vastly more qualified that my arguements aren't reasonable. I know that with plenty of other games I have far more experience than you...

I was referring to your Freelancer remarks.

The thing you quoted never referred to Freelancer though...

Riiiight.

Of course Freelancer has missiles, I used them in the game! As for if it has a Missile Boat-type craft, I have absolutely no idea so I won't say one way or the other... all I was doing was saying that that's the part of the game I was in... and that I love the Missile Boat. Its my favorite Star Wars fighter in any of these games...

[OB1]

But I didn't say that, and never implied it! I just said that lots of people like space sims!

I bet.

Okay, its a dumb point. But its still true.

What I said is also true.

Since 1996 isn't long enough?

I'm not talking about mainly just playing one series for a long time, I'm talking about playing many games in the genre for more than two hours each.

Okay, you are right -- I said that it was by the Wing Commander team and was wrong, it wasn't, it was by the Privateer team. But my point still stands... as in, its in the same tradition and the combat is a decendant of those games...

So they can't make better combat systems as they improve as developers?

Your claims you like this genre seem ... doubtful ... if you dislike the cornerstones of the genre!

I like the genre for different reasons, but it wasn't really until Freespace and Freelancer that I started to truly like the combat.

Examples of how it radically alters the genre. And I seem to remember that the game does have a way of tracking some enemies who aren't on the screen, I think...

Oh, one other thing. The third-person viewpoint. That is at least as important as any of those other main factors for why it doesn't work as well... third person is just wrong on so many levels for anything even pretending some kind of immersion!

There is a way of tracking enemies but it's not nearly as easy as using a radar, but works remarkably well.

And you can change the perspective with a simple button press! You really didn't play the game, did you??

Limited??? No, I think it would have made it so much more fun... that and a good in-cockpit viewpoint...

There's no way you would have been able to switch between flying and using the on-screen display (which could only be done with a mouse) with a joystick. And then what about the side burners (strafing) and sliding? Definitely would not work with a joystick, which is why the developers made it a keyboard-and-mouse-only game.

And again, there IS a cockpit view, which you would have noticed had you actually played the game for more than a few moments!

Sorry. You are wrong. Try reading this...

http://pc.ign.com/articles/387/387303p3.html

*tsk tsk tsk*

ABF, that review is from Ivan Sulic, the idiot who left the site because many readers bashed him for making such stupid reviews, among other reasons.

I try not to grade others based on my opinions in these arguements... you do not.

You try not to grade others? What on earth are you talking about?

I pointed out that you're a hypocrite, which you are.

That's exactly what I said, if you read my post!

Yeah, see how easy it is for me to do the same to you! I was showing how much of a hypocrite you are!!

If I hadn't played the games, maybe... but I have! Less than you... yes, for many of the games. But I HAVE played them.

Very little of, sure.

I somehow doubt that IGN and Gamespot stopped after a few hours... sorry, but NO. There is just no sane way to say that Freelancer has deeper combat than mainline space sims.

Sorry, but YES. I'm talking about the main combat here, not just power management. Stuff like X-Wing and WC have very, very simple combat. There's accelerate, brake, turn, and shoot.

I haven't played either in a long time and never played them for that long, so I can't really comment.

You shouldn't even be commenting on anything in this thread.

More knowledge with some games does not make you so vastly more qualified that my arguements aren't reasonable. I know that with plenty of other games I have far more experience than you...

When I know a lot about the topic we're arguing about and you don't, so that most certainly DOES make me more "qualified" than you.

The thing you quoted never referred to Freelancer though...

Yeah it did.

Of course Freelancer has missiles, I used them in the game! As for if it has a Missile Boat-type craft, I have absolutely no idea so I won't say one way or the other... all I was doing was saying that that's the part of the game I was in... and that I love the Missile Boat. Its my favorite Star Wars fighter in any of these games...

What?

[A Black Falcon]

I bet.

I REALLY wish you'd stop reading more into what I say than what I mean! It is really annoying... that is ALL I MEANT!

As in, you may dislike them but there is a sizable fanbase that DOES like real space sims. And since the X-Wing series is one of the most liked ones (along with Freespace)...

I'm not talking about mainly just playing one series for a long time, I'm talking about playing many games in the genre for more than two hours each.

I'd love to have some more games in the genre, but I can only afford so much...

So they can't make better combat systems as they improve as developers?

Of course they can, but their previous works will still greatly affect their future games...

I like the genre for different reasons, but it wasn't really until Freespace and Freelancer that I started to truly like the combat.

And I instantly loved everything about TIE Fighter from within a few minuites of playing the game. And still do, seven years later.

There is a way of tracking enemies but it's not nearly as easy as using a radar, but works remarkably well.

And you can change the perspective with a simple button press! You really didn't play the game, did you??

Its those arrows on the edges of the screen, right? Yeah, not nearly as good as radar... which is why you NEED to use the third-person view -- you just can't see enough in the cockpit with no radar! You need radar in a cockpit game to be able to really track enemies... if you don't have it the restricted views of a cockpit make it a not very good choice when compared to third-person. Freelancer is just like that...

There's no way you would have been able to switch between flying and using the on-screen display (which could only be done with a mouse) with a joystick. And then what about the side burners (strafing) and sliding? Definitely would not work with a joystick, which is why the developers made it a keyboard-and-mouse-only game.

And again, there IS a cockpit view, which you would have noticed had you actually played the game for more than a few moments!

Strafing... they could do it (strafing). Maybe put it on the rudder controls, or the hat-switch? Not sure... but its not too hard, if you assume that people have a decent joystick...

And as I said, the cockpit mode is near-useless. Just like the third-person mode in TIE Fighter...

As for switching between mouse and joystick... that is a better point. I'm sure they could do it, but it'd require a lot more keyboard shortcuts and interface complexity.

*tsk tsk tsk*

ABF, that review is from Ivan Sulic, the idiot who left the site because many readers bashed him for making such stupid reviews, among other reasons.

Given that he really likes this genre (space sims as well as mech games), I'd say he was a good choice to do the review... and those comments about Diablo are accurate! Every review I've read agrees on the basic idea that the combat is simple but other stuff makes the game great...

Oh, and you got to admit that he wasn't talking about the multiplayer...

You try not to grade others? What on earth are you talking about?

I pointed out that you're a hypocrite, which you are.

Judging other people's game likes/dislikes against something as biased as my opinion... sure, I'll comment about it and say something, but saying like you do that it makes them stupid and that their opinion is totally wrong? No, I don't think I do that. At least not very often...

Yeah, see how easy it is for me to do the same to you! I was showing how much of a hypocrite you are!!

Huh?

No, it just shows how you don't read my posts well enough...

Sorry, but YES. I'm talking about the main combat here, not just power management. Stuff like X-Wing and WC have very, very simple combat. There's accelerate, brake, turn, and shoot.

And as everything I've said points out pretty clearly, Freelancer's combat is quite definitely simpler than that. I really don't see how that is up to question...

Oh, and you simplify standard space sim combat more than you sensibly can or should...

When I know a lot about the topic we're arguing about and you don't, so that most certainly DOES make me more "qualified" than you.

But when I know as much about the topic as I do with this one, not so much that it automatically makes you right, that's for sure!

Yeah it did.

No it most certainly did not.

You make it sound like you look in space for the other ship, when all you do is track it on radar and turn towards the dot... turn, fire, accelerate, fire, turn, brake (if you're going a lot faster than them you've got to slow down to be able to hit them much...), etc... switch weapons, reinforce weak shields...

That's the comment that brought on your 'dont comment on what you don't know' comment again. Except that its describing TIE Fighter... and not one word there talks about Freelancer. Making it clear you didn't read my post well enough...

What?

I said where I am in TIE Fighter and that I like the Missile Boat. You respond by saying that 'nope, because you can't fire missiles in Freelancer' or something like that, totally missing the point of my comment... then I reply showing how your dumb comment misses the point of what I was saying and you're confused?

[OB1]

I REALLY wish you'd stop reading more into what I say than what I mean! It is really annoying... that is ALL I MEANT!

As in, you may dislike them but there is a sizable fanbase that DOES like real space sims. And since the X-Wing series is one of the most liked ones (along with Freespace)...

I'll stop that as SOON as YOU stop USING caps so ANNOYINGLY.

I like space sims more than you do, buddy! Just for different reasons...

I'd love to have some more games in the genre, but I can only afford so much...

Oh come on, you could have gotten a few other space sims. I hope you plan on getting X2 this year...

Of course they can, but their previous works will still greatly affect their future games...

That's ridiculous. Their past games were very good but with dull combat systems, but that has absolutely no bearing on their future titles.

And I instantly loved everything about TIE Fighter from within a few minuites of playing the game. And still do, seven years later.

Congrats.

Its those arrows on the edges of the screen, right? Yeah, not nearly as good as radar... which is why you NEED to use the third-person view -- you just can't see enough in the cockpit with no radar! You need radar in a cockpit game to be able to really track enemies... if you don't have it the restricted views of a cockpit make it a not very good choice when compared to third-person. Freelancer is just like that...

Um... NO. The lack of a radar works perfectly, and it's just as easy in first-person as it is in third.

Strafing... they could do it (strafing). Maybe put it on the rudder controls, or the hat-switch? Not sure... but its not too hard, if you assume that people have a decent joystick...

And as I said, the cockpit mode is near-useless. Just like the third-person mode in TIE Fighter...

As for switching between mouse and joystick... that is a better point. I'm sure they could do it, but it'd require a lot more keyboard shortcuts and interface complexity.

Strafing and sliding would be impossible with a joystick, and navigating the on-screen interface would be inpractical. That is why the developers made it that way!! Believe it or not, they know a thing or two about controls more than you do.

You said that there wasn't any cockpit view so naturally you never used it, so how the hell can you say that it's useless? This is really annoying, ABF. Stop arguing about things you know nothing about!!

Given that he really likes this genre (space sims as well as mech games), I'd say he was a good choice to do the review... and those comments about Diablo are accurate! Every review I've read agrees on the basic idea that the combat is simple but other stuff makes the game great...

Oh, and you got to admit that he wasn't talking about the multiplayer...

The man knows very little about games, which is one of the reason why he left the site. I'm sure you'd agree with most of what he says, of course, since you seem to know just as little as he does.

They were talking about Diablo similarities in multiplayer, but not in that page, true. The multiplayer is sort of like Diablo in that you fly around with other craft in the single-player universe.

Judging other people's game likes/dislikes against something as biased as my opinion... sure, I'll comment about it and say something, but saying like you do that it makes them stupid and that their opinion is totally wrong? No, I don't think I do that. At least not very often...

That's what you always do, and this hypocrisy has to stop!

Huh?

No, it just shows how you don't read my posts well enough...

I read your post very well. You accused me of stating my opinion as fact when you do the exact same thing all of the time. That is why you are a hypocrite.

And as everything I've said points out pretty clearly, Freelancer's combat is quite definitely simpler than that. I really don't see how that is up to question...

Oh, and you simplify standard space sim combat more than you sensibly can or should...

This is very tiresome, as you still cannot debate like a normal person. You completely ignore other people's points and just go on spewing forth the same bullshit over and over. Debating with you on this is like the time I tried to convince Darunia that Metroid Prime is better than Quest 64. Arguing with such stupidity is useless.

But when I know as much about the topic as I do with this one, not so much that it automatically makes you right, that's for sure!

Spoken like a true ignoramus.

No it most certainly did not.

You make it sound like you look in space for the other ship, when all you do is track it on radar and turn towards the dot... turn, fire, accelerate, fire, turn, brake (if you're going a lot faster than them you've got to slow down to be able to hit them much...), etc... switch weapons, reinforce weak shields...



That's the comment that brought on your 'dont comment on what you don't know' comment again. Except that its describing TIE Fighter... and not one word there talks about Freelancer. Making it clear you didn't read my post well enough...

You're never clear enough, and you've shown how little you know about Freelancer so it sounded like you were talking about that. Freelancer's combat is definitely not as simple as that.

I said where I am in TIE Fighter and that I like the Missile Boat. You respond by saying that 'nope, because you can't fire missiles in Freelancer' or something like that, totally missing the point of my comment... then I reply showing how your dumb comment misses the point of what I was saying and you're confused?

You were comparing Freelancer and TIE Fighter and then mentioned how you can just shoot missiles from afar in TIE, implying that you cannot do the same in Freelancer.

[A Black Falcon]

I'll stop that as SOON as YOU stop USING caps so ANNOYINGLY.

I like space sims more than you do, buddy! Just for different reasons...

So different that you really don't like the same genre that I do.

Oh, and you use bold, which is worse than caps!

Oh come on, you could have gotten a few other space sims. I hope you plan on getting X2 this year...

I always meant to get Tachyon, but never got around to it... but I probably will get Freespace (1) if I can. X2? Probably not, very few PC games are worth full price... not with how many great cheap games there are!

That's ridiculous. Their past games were very good but with dull combat systems, but that has absolutely no bearing on their future titles.

So a developer's past titles have absolutely no influence on their future ones? Do you honestly believe that?

Um... NO. The lack of a radar works perfectly, and it's just as easy in first-person as it is in third.

You can't see as much of the screen, though... which without good radar is a major problem. In a way sort of like how the Rogue Squadron games' first person view isn't exactly useful either...

Strafing and sliding would be impossible with a joystick, and navigating the on-screen interface would be inpractical. That is why the developers made it that way!! Believe it or not, they know a thing or two about controls more than you do.

You said that there wasn't any cockpit view so naturally you never used it, so how the hell can you say that it's useless? This is really annoying, ABF. Stop arguing about things you know nothing about!!

Sorry, its been a few months since I played it, and I deleted the demo some time ago since it was so huge on my harddrive...

Oh, and I think strafing would work just fine. Why wouldn't it? All it needs is decent controls, which could be found... I don't see why a joystick would make that impossible.

As for the button interface, as I said, it'd make it a lot more complex. Hardly impossible... but not as easy to use, I admit.

The man knows very little about games, which is one of the reason why he left the site. I'm sure you'd agree with most of what he says, of course, since you seem to know just as little as he does.

They were talking about Diablo similarities in multiplayer, but not in that page, true. The multiplayer is sort of like Diablo in that you fly around with other craft in the single-player universe.

Sure, he was very ... opinionated ... and was wrong about plenty (like his idiotic comments about Metroid Prime), but he knew sims like this pretty well, its clear...

Oh, and he always made the PC letters section an entertaining read. And updated it a lot, too... :)

Also... I'd be scared to see the multiplayer compared to Diablo... Diablo is just so boring! I know lots of people love the multiplayer... but to me... its just the same thing over and over. Better items doesn't draw me at all.

That's what you always do, and this hypocrisy has to stop!

No, I don't... I try my best not to. Unlike you...

I read your post very well. You accused me of stating my opinion as fact when you do the exact same thing all of the time. That is why you are a hypocrite.

I don't do it in anywhere near that same 'yours is so stupid and wrong' insulting fashion that you do.

This is very tiresome, as you still cannot debate like a normal person. You completely ignore other people's points and just go on spewing forth the same bullshit over and over. Debating with you on this is like the time I tried to convince Darunia that Metroid Prime is better than Quest 64. Arguing with such stupidity is useless.

On this issue the only relevant point of yours that I can think of is that Freelancer has 'sliding'. What exactly is that technique? I know it has sidestepping (unlike most every other game in the genre), but how exactly does that one technique make this game so much deeper than everything I have played and read about it suggests?

You're never clear enough, and you've shown how little you know about Freelancer so it sounded like you were talking about that. Freelancer's combat is definitely not as simple as that.

But it was a response to a quote of yours mentioning X-Wing!

And X-Wing isn't quite that simple either, I just simplified it... a simplification of Freelancer on that level wouldn't take up that much space.

You were comparing Freelancer and TIE Fighter and then mentioned how you can just shoot missiles from afar in TIE, implying that you cannot do the same in Freelancer.

Is that what you think I was saying? How can you misread it so badly?

That was from this post of mine.

You make it sound like you look in space for the other ship, when all you do is track it on radar and turn towards the dot... turn, fire, accelerate, fire, turn, brake (if you're going a lot faster than them you've got to slow down to be able to hit them much...), etc... switch weapons, reinforce weak shields...

Or, of course, in the missions I'm in in TIE Fighter, stay way away and shoot missiles at them (gotta love the Missile Boat missions...).

Unlike, correct. Freelancer is unlike standard combat in the genre.

Better? Not in a million years.

It was a reply to this comment in the middle of your previous post about X-Wing.

(unlike the crappy "sit, shoot real fast, then turn all the way around to find the enemy" combat seen in the X-Wing series and every other space sim)

I was just saying how it isn't that shallow... saying how I think it is, in its simplest form... then saying that if you use the Missile Boat, its best to avoid dogfighting alltogether because its just got that one weak lazer. Nothing about Freelancer until those last two lines, which are admittedly just tacked on with no support in that statement... because I'd talked about that subject in my previous reply, and this was just a followup. They probably should have been in the previous paragraph (quote-reply), now that I look at them... it is kind of confusing to talk about X-Wing for a paragraph then go back to the differences between X-Wing, Privateer, Wing Commander, Freelancer, etc. I was just trying to say 'this is X-Wing combat and its deeper than Freelancer combat', pretty much...

Oh, I would be intrested to know if it has something analogous to the Missile Boat...

[OB1]

So different that you really don't like the same genre that I do.

Oh, and you use bold, which is worse than caps!

So if I like Mario Sunshine for the acrobatics and you like Mario Sunshine for the shine collecting, we don't like the same game?? Yeah that makes sense... :erm2:

Bold is nowehere near as annoying as CAPS.

I always meant to get Tachyon, but never got around to it... but I probably will get Freespace (1) if I can. X2? Probably not, very few PC games are worth full price... not with how many great cheap games there are!

X2 looks to be one of the best space sims ever created, and it will finally give you the chance to play an open-ended space sim for more than two hours. They're the best kind of space sim, you know. You can even pilot huge capital ships in X2!

So a developer's past titles have absolutely no influence on their future ones? Do you honestly believe that?

If enough key members leave, of course.

You can't see as much of the screen, though... which without good radar is a major problem. In a way sort of like how the Rogue Squadron games' first person view isn't exactly useful either...

Third-person is the easiest way to play the game, but the cockpit view is also very easy to use. How about you try it out before saying that it sucks.

Sorry, its been a few months since I played it, and I deleted the demo some time ago since it was so huge on my harddrive...

Oh, and I think strafing would work just fine. Why wouldn't it? All it needs is decent controls, which could be found... I don't see why a joystick would make that impossible.

As for the button interface, as I said, it'd make it a lot more complex. Hardly impossible... but not as easy to use, I admit.

It would be impossible with any joystick to properly play Freelancer. Strafing and sliding could not be done with a joystick, not even with those dual joysticks. And then swtiching between piloting and using the on-screen interface would be extremely cumbersome. I won't repeat that again.

Sure, he was very ... opinionated ... and was wrong about plenty (like his idiotic comments about Metroid Prime), but he knew sims like this pretty well, its clear...

Oh, and he always made the PC letters section an entertaining read. And updated it a lot, too...

Also... I'd be scared to see the multiplayer compared to Diablo... Diablo is just so boring! I know lots of people love the multiplayer... but to me... its just the same thing over and over. Better items doesn't draw me at all.

I also hate Diablo but that doesn't mean that I don't love Freelancer's multiplayer. Unlike Diablo where you only have a few levels to go through, multiplayer in Freelancer opens up literally hundreds of worlds and thousands upon thousands of missions to go on. You can do whatever you want to in Freelancer. Become a trader, bounty hunter, whatever. Everything in single-player but with the option of playing and trading, etc. with other people. It's insanely fun.

Ivan Sulic knows Mech Warrior, but that's about it. The man is a complete dumb ass.

No, I don't... I try my best not to. Unlike you...

ENOUGH!!!

This is not fun anymore!

I don't do it in anywhere near that same 'yours is so stupid and wrong' insulting fashion that you do.

That is precisely what you do.

On this issue the only relevant point of yours that I can think of is that Freelancer has 'sliding'. What exactly is that technique? I know it has sidestepping (unlike most every other game in the genre), but how exactly does that one technique make this game so much deeper than everything I have played and read about it suggests?

Sliding is just one of the many different flying techniques that you learn throughout the game. Instead of just acceleration, braking, and turning like all other space sims, there is acceleration, braking, turning, strafing, sliding, and many other piloting moves to perform.

But it was a response to a quote of yours mentioning X-Wing!

And X-Wing isn't quite that simple either, I just simplified it... a simplification of Freelancer on that level wouldn't take up that much space.

X-Wing is that simple, while Freelancer is not.

Is that what you think I was saying? How can you misread it so badly?

That was from this post of mine.


You make it sound like you look in space for the other ship, when all you do is track it on radar and turn towards the dot... turn, fire, accelerate, fire, turn, brake (if you're going a lot faster than them you've got to slow down to be able to hit them much...), etc... switch weapons, reinforce weak shields...

Or, of course, in the missions I'm in in TIE Fighter, stay way away and shoot missiles at them (gotta love the Missile Boat missions...).

Unlike, correct. Freelancer is unlike standard combat in the genre.

Better? Not in a million years.



It was a reply to this comment in the middle of your previous post about X-Wing.


(unlike the crappy "sit, shoot real fast, then turn all the way around to find the enemy" combat seen in the X-Wing series and every other space sim)



I was just saying how it isn't that shallow... saying how I think it is, in its simplest form... then saying that if you use the Missile Boat, its best to avoid dogfighting alltogether because its just got that one weak lazer. Nothing about Freelancer until those last two lines, which are admittedly just tacked on with no support in that statement... because I'd talked about that subject in my previous reply, and this was just a followup. They probably should have been in the previous paragraph (quote-reply), now that I look at them... it is kind of confusing to talk about X-Wing for a paragraph then go back to the differences between X-Wing, Privateer, Wing Commander, Freelancer, etc. I was just trying to say 'this is X-Wing combat and its deeper than Freelancer combat', pretty much...

Oh, I would be intrested to know if it has something analogous to the Missile Boat...

You're asking me how I can misinterpret your post when you admit that you made it confusing??

[A Black Falcon]

So if I like Mario Sunshine for the acrobatics and you like Mario Sunshine for the shine collecting, we don't like the same game?? Yeah that makes sense...

Bold is nowehere near as annoying as CAPS.

They are both really annoying. :)

Oh, and it does make sense... trading space sims and linear combat-centric ones are quite different...

X2 looks to be one of the best space sims ever created, and it will finally give you the chance to play an open-ended space sim for more than two hours. They're the best kind of space sim, you know. You can even pilot huge capital ships in X2!

Does it have a subtitle (like X: Beyond the Frontier)? If not, X2 is a dumb name... :)

Anyway, yes, from what I know it does sound like a very good trading game... I might get it, I don't know. Is it coming out soon?

If enough key members leave, of course.

But weren't a lot of the most important people involved in the game?

Third-person is the easiest way to play the game, but the cockpit view is also very easy to use. How about you try it out before saying that it sucks.

I would, but I don't want to have to download that massive file again...

It would be impossible with any joystick to properly play Freelancer. Strafing and sliding could not be done with a joystick, not even with those dual joysticks. And then swtiching between piloting and using the on-screen interface would be extremely cumbersome. I won't repeat that again.

Impossible? Absolutely not! Some things are impossible, but making Freelancer a joystick game? No, that doesn't make any sense... sure, it'd change the game a lot and slow down combat, but I think that those would be good changes...

I also hate Diablo but that doesn't mean that I don't love Freelancer's multiplayer. Unlike Diablo where you only have a few levels to go through, multiplayer in Freelancer opens up literally hundreds of worlds and thousands upon thousands of missions to go on. You can do whatever you want to in Freelancer. Become a trader, bounty hunter, whatever. Everything in single-player but with the option of playing and trading, etc. with other people. It's insanely fun.

Ivan Sulic knows Mech Warrior, but that's about it. The man is a complete dumb ass.

But are the characters persistant? If not, it'd be a major pain having to start over all the time, given how long it takes to get powerful...

Oh, and the multiplayer does sound interesting. Not nearly as good as the initial promise of a MMORPG, but interesting...

That is precisely what you do.

No, I try pretty hard to avoid insults...

Sliding is just one of the many different flying techniques that you learn throughout the game. Instead of just acceleration, braking, and turning like all other space sims, there is acceleration, braking, turning, strafing, sliding, and many other piloting moves to perform.

But given the control scheme most of those are significantly easier to preform (sure, some are advanced, but some things in TIE Fighter are too...) than moves in a standard space sim, making the fact that there might be a couple more of them a lot less important...

You're asking me how I can misinterpret your post when you admit that you made it confusing??

I admitted that it was confusing, didn't I? :)

[OB1]

You know what? I'm not even going to reply to all of that because it's going NOWHERE! Let's just leave it at I like good combat and you don't, and be over with it. :P

Does it have a subtitle (like X: Beyond the Frontier)? If not, X2 is a dumb name...

Anyway, yes, from what I know it does sound like a very good trading game... I might get it, I don't know. Is it coming out soon?

X2: The Threat, and October.

Impossible? Absolutely not! Some things are impossible, but making Freelancer a joystick game? No, that doesn't make any sense... sure, it'd change the game a lot and slow down combat, but I think that those would be good changes...

They would be bad changes and they'd have to completely change everything about the combat/flight controls.

But are the characters persistant? If not, it'd be a major pain having to start over all the time, given how long it takes to get powerful...

Oh, and the multiplayer does sound interesting. Not nearly as good as the initial promise of a MMORPG, but interesting...

Yes it's persistent. It's basically just the single-player game but with a cool, big co-op mode.

Now I want to play Freelancer real bad...

[A Black Falcon]

You know what? I'm not even going to reply to all of that because it's going NOWHERE! Let's just leave it at I like good combat and you don't, and be over with it. :P

I agree, this is pretty annoying... you like shallow FPS combat and simple flight systems like Freelancer and I like complex flight systems and deeper, more immersive joystick-based gameplay. :)

Okay, so that's a baised view on it. That was the point... its better than saying "you are stupid and I am right" like you do all the time!

Seriously, the two combat styles are pretty much polar opposites, and we clearly completely disagree on which is more fun...

As for which is more complex, I doubt either of us could really be objective about it... but I just can't see you being right about it. :)

They would be bad changes and they'd have to completely change everything about the combat/flight controls.

No, not everything... the combat wouldn't change very much, for instance...

Yes it's persistent. It's basically just the single-player game but with a cool, big co-op mode.

Now I want to play Freelancer real bad...

Sounds nice... and free, which is great. Of course its no MMORPG so its not like you're getting a game the equal of pay games for free, but still... it does sound like a deeper multiplayer mode than most games.

[OB1]

I agree, this is pretty annoying... you like shallow FPS combat and simple flight systems like Freelancer and I like complex flight systems and deeper, more immersive joystick-based gameplay.

Okay, so that's a baised view on it. That was the point... its better than saying "you are stupid and I am right" like you do all the time!

Seriously, the two combat styles are pretty much polar opposites, and we clearly completely disagree on which is more fun...

As for which is more complex, I doubt either of us could really be objective about it... but I just can't see you being right about it.

Of course you can't! You wouldn't be ABF if you didn't think crazy things!

And also, you started this whole debate because you refused to accept the fact that other people have different opinions than you do.

No, not everything... the combat wouldn't change very much, for instance...

You wouldn't even be able to do half the things without a keyboard and mouse, and you call that very little change?? You're insane.

Sounds nice... and free, which is great. Of course its no MMORPG so its not like you're getting a game the equal of pay games for free, but still... it does sound like a deeper multiplayer mode than most games.

It's not massively multiplayer, but I like it this way.

[A Black Falcon]

Of course you can't! You wouldn't be ABF if you didn't think crazy things!

And also, you started this whole debate because you refused to accept the fact that other people have different opinions than you do.

But the arguement only got this long because you started saying silly things like Freelancer having deeper combat than X-Wing...

Oh, and I never said I won't argue about opinions... just that you often seem to have a hard time accepting opinions as opinons (then of course you say you don't, but then prove yourself wrong in the next debate...)

You wouldn't even be able to do half the things without a keyboard and mouse, and you call that very little change?? You're insane.

But if a change would make the game more fun, its worth doing... :)

[OB1]

But the arguement only got this long because you started saying silly things like Freelancer having deeper combat than X-Wing...

Oh, and I never said I won't argue about opinions... just that you often seem to have a hard time accepting opinions as opinons (then of course you say you don't, but then prove yourself wrong in the next debate...)

You just contradicted yourself by saying that my opinion is "wrong"!! THAT is why you're such a hypocrite, ABF!!

I've said from the beginning that power management aside, the Freelancer combat is definitely deeper than most space sims, including the X-Wing games. And that is the truth. Perhaps if you had played the game for a longer amount of time you would have found that to be true.

But if a change would make the game more fun, its worth doing...

But it wouldn't make the game more fun, it would simply cripple it.