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You got what you deserve, Republican Party...
The Senate voted 59-41 on the bill saying that Trump cannot declare a national emergency over the wall. That means that the Dems got 12 Republicans to vote for it, but unfortunately you need 67 to overturn the veto Trump has promised to make and overturning the veto is very unlikely, so this will probably proceed. That the bill passed both houses of Congress with at least a few Republicans voting for it both times is good, but that a vast majority of the Republican Party continue to act as Trump's loyal servants is quite obviously awful. Still, 12 of them voting for this is good, and better than many people were expecting.
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Veto done, because that's the sort of thing Trump would do. Well, so be it. I hope they attempt to override the veto even if they don't have the votes to do it. It's worth trying just to make a statement.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
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So Robert Mueller is apparently done investigating Trump, and AG Barr is going to decide what to release... hopefully sometime later today, but we'll see. I'm expecting a very heavily redacted report that gives little hint of the actual contents (good for Trump or bad), but we'll have to see... though all along I've had more hope for state prosecution and anything from the House (particularly now that the Dems control it!) or Senate than from Mueller, since they have fewer constraints. No matter what the Mueller report says we know Trump is in trouble with NY state law... and maybe we'll actually get a pretty bad-for-Trump Mueller report! We'll see hopefully soon.
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According to the republicans, the report completely exonerates him. That's literally all I'm hearing on any of the news sources, because they control the narrative. I would believe it, if the republicans hadn't been lying constantly for the past two years.

But hey, this is good news right? If the report completely exonerates him, there should be no issues at all releasing it to the public. They would have no reason at all to hide anything in it.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
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Yeah, the report summary is moderately good news for Trump, but from what little it admits, they're wildly exaggerating when they claim 'complete exoneration' and such. This NY Times op-ed summarizes some of the problems with Barr's report well: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/24/opini...eport.html Mueller apparently decided that he didn't have enough evidence to charge Trump with collusion, but that there was evidence going both ways on obstruction of justice. Barr then decided that that meant that Trump was innocent of obstruction as well, even though that is definitely not what it sounds like Mueller was saying. And the Mueller investigation was very narrowly focused, too much so to cover all of Trump's numerous crimes.

Unfortunately the media, as you say, seem to be quite willing to believe Barr's probably very overly friendly portrayal of the report. I hope that a lot more of it gets out soon so we get a fuller picture, though Barr probably isn't just totally making up what he says in that report; he must know a good amount of the real report will be released, after all. The question is how complete the report was, what is actually included in the final report, and such. For instance, was anything related to the President himself left out because of the Justice Department's "the president cannot be charged" interpretation of the law? That is a very plausible scenario unfortunately. It does seem pretty clear that Mueller missed his chance to really take down Trump, but he probably never wanted to do that to begin with, so that's understandable if that is what the report says. (I never was a believer in the whole 'Mueller will save America from Trump' narrative some people wanted to convince themselves...)

What this really means is that future investigations will be much more partisan than Mueller's were, but no matter what Mueller found the Republican Party was almost certainly not going to support impeachment, so that was going that direction anyway.

Also, given this mixed-result report, it's probably good that it was released now and not in the middle of the next Presidential campaign, that'd be much better for Trump then... unless of course more details leak from it that are very damaging to him, which is possible of course.
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Watch this.  Watch the whole thing.  Don't watch 5 minutes and then comment.  Watch it all.

"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
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I watched it. It's a good summary of a lot of the situation, yeah. I hope that the Mueller report is released and he gives all of those things and more their proper attention, with enough details to damage Trump even if no criminal charges resulted. We'll see though.

On another note, Joe Biden is definitely not having a good PR cycle right now, and it was inevitable -- the pictures of Biden getting too close to women during photo-ops go back a long time, and it was definitely going to eventually be a problem for him, particularly in this party; obviously Republicans don't care, but Democrats do.

Now, from what we've seen I don't see any accusations of Biden doing overtly sexual things, "just" inappropriately close touching of hair and such, but it's definitely creepy and not okay. The big question is though, if that is all it is and there isn't anything worse on him out there (and if there is, I hope it comes out, though I certainly hope there isn't) is it bad enough that he shouldn't run for President, or can he still run despite this? Younger people seem to mostly be saying he shouldn't, and older people that he should, so there's a definite age gap here. I definitely don't think he will be my first choice for the primary, but as much as I like Biden he probably wouldn't have been anyway; this isn't a new issue after all, and there are all kinds of policy reasons to have issues with Biden -- he's been very centrist during his career. He's also pretty old. I think he'd be a very good President, but we have a lot of candidates who would be good. Biden is polling best right now, though -- for instance, in a new Michigan poll, of the Dems polled, only Biden finished ahead of Trump. Those numbers will change as people get more familiar with the other Democrats for sure, though, so I'm not sure how much weight to give it...

On the age note, I really, really hope our nominee isn't Bernie instead...
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I don't like Biden. Good riddance. Bring on some real candidates.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
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What, because he's one of our most centrist candidates? That is probably true, yes. He's to Obama or Hillary's right, and on issues definitely wouldn't be my top choice either. I like Biden, but on issues he's not the best...

As for this controversy though, even if the creepiness is just unconscious paternalist (sexist) behavior, as I think it most likely is, it's still not great, and he should do a better job of apologizing; I get that he doesn't really want to say sorry for things he doesn't think he did wrong, but at this point he probably should.
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(6th April 2019, 12:30 AM)A Black Falcon Wrote: What, because he's one of our most centrist candidates?  That is probably true, yes.  He's to Obama or Hillary's right, and on issues definitely wouldn't be my top choice either.  I like Biden, but on issues he's not the best...

As for this controversy though, even if the creepiness is just unconscious paternalist (sexist) behavior, as I think it most likely is, it's still not great, and he should do a better job of apologizing; I get that he doesn't really want to say sorry for things he doesn't think he did wrong, but at this point he probably should.

He should GO AWAY.  How could you possibly like him?  He talks weird, his positions are useless, and he's a creep.  There's literally nothing to like about him, and also. he won't win if he becomes the democratic candidate.  He won't.  His centrism won't win over a single republican (because no matter how far to the right a centrist candidate tries to go, there's a republican candidate further right than that, and the republicans will pick that one EVERY SINGLE TIME, and it will turn off a LOT Of democrats.)

Good god ABF, has the party learned NOTHING?  This is how you lose elections! The very fact that you can even say "I like him but on everything that counts he's terrible" is utterly depressing. Why even go on....
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
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Biden is definitely centrist and in many ways less liberal than a lot of the candidates, but he's good on LGBT rights for sure and is knowledgeable about foreign policy. He did vote for the Iraq War, like most Senate Democrats, but had some good foreign policy ideas for sure. Of course his domestic record is more checkered, with his opposition to busing in the '80s, etc, but that's going to happen with anyone who has been around that long...

He's also a good debater, and easily won both VP debates in '08 and '12. And yes, I definitely think that he would win in 2020, and probably actually has the best chance to win of any of our candidates, so long as there isn't worse about there about him of course, though I think most likely we know the whole story now. That is, that he has a long history of looking creepy in photo ops, but not actually harassing or assaulting anyone. He definitely needs to stop and as I said it probably is sexist behavior, but if he really didn't think there was anything wrong with it and is learning he shouldn't be told 'don't even run at all'. That is something he'll be attacked for of course if he is the nominee, since Trump doesn't care one bit about his far worse behavior and already has mocked Biden some, but Trump will find something to insult any possible Dem candidate for, so I'm not sure how much that matters.

That said, we're up to something like 20 Democrats running for President now. It's a ridiculously large field to say the least! There are so many people running I can't come even close to remembering all of their names... so who's the best candidate? I don't know, there are maybe too many people running. Our best candidate, in terms of policy, isn't Biden or Sanders, but they are the best-known (and among the oldest) candidates so they're ahead for the moment. It'll be interesting to see if that holds up, or if any of the many younger candidates will gain enough traction to challenge for the top.
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Biden has zero charisma. He's already lost. You just listed every reason I don't like him.

Me to Biden: "Don't even run at all."

Seriously ABF, THIS is your guy? The democrats have learned nothing. Nothing, not a DAMNED THING! I am so furious right now. You don't even see it! You- you don't even see that you're repeating the same damne mistakes all over again! The same ones!

Let's rename this thread. The democrats are going to get exactly what they deserve. Damn it... The slogan for a Biden presidency should just be "4 More Years!" on a red baseball cap.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
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Same problem as what, 2016? Bernie Sanders would have done worse, not better, that year, I am still convinced of that. Biden doesn't have Hillary's major downside, he's not female and the media hasn't spent almost 30 years tearing him to pieces because of it. He does have some lasting popularity because he was Obama's VP, and indeed has already said stuff like how he's an "Obama-Biden Democrat". I'd rather see a more liberal candidate then him too, but I do think he'd win; his main appeal is to the same rust-belt constituency that Trump won with, after all.

It kind of depends, though -- do you think anyone would beat Trump in 2020? Almost no one? Something in between? That's the big question, isn't it...
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You.... you... you don't get it at all! You completely fail to understand why Hillary lost!

You're repeating the same damned mistake again! Again ABF! You're trying to appeal to the "rust belt" (meaning, republicans) and you will FAIL. EVERY other candidate is a better option than Biden. ALL of them!
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
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Hillary lost because of sexism, James Comey, and the rust belt, though. Insufficient liberal enthusiasm hurt her too, but wasn't the deciding blow. And again, Sanders would have done worse. He won't win if he's our nominee in 2020 either, I would say.
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On another note, AG Barr helped cover up Iran-Contra, back in the '80s. He's a guy you go to to help cover up the crimes of a Republican president. Why did the press pretty much take him at his word, initially, when his letter released? Barr has a long record after all!

On that note, Barr was called to talk to congress today, and said almost nothing. He even refused to answer the very simple question of 'has the White House seen any more of the Mueller Report than has been publicly released in your letter?'. It'll be quite interesting to see how much of the report he actually deigns to release next week, if that happens at all...
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Citation needed ABF. Citation needed.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
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For what?
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A centrist democrat will lose. Period. That is the lesson you should have learned with Hillary. It's what the party should have learned. If you try to appeal to the rust belt with a "diet republican", the republicans are just going to run with their full-sugar republican, and sweep it. They do that every single time.

If you want to win the rust belt, it takes honesty. Don't lie and pretend you share their values. Tell the truth, that your values ARE different than what they've been raised to believe is right, and then make a clear and honest case for why your values will better serve their interests than what the republicans are offering. Point out how republican policy has failed them, and show how left leaning policy serves rural communities better.

I've already gone over this very early on in this thread.

Fail to learn from history at your peril. But at the rate things are going, a Biden candidacy is nothing more than a declaration that Trump is going to be an 8 year president.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
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Yes, a centrist Democrat will definitely lose, just like how... wait, like how all Democrats who have won for President in the last 43 years have been somewhat centrist. Hmm. A "centrist" is not my first choice -- though I very much disagree with the idea that Hillary was "centrist", she was most decidedly liberal -- but they definitely can win.

In other news, Obama raised my taxes and Trump cut them. Unfortunately for him that doesn't make me want to vote for Republicans. :p

Quote: Fail to learn from history at your peril. But at the rate things are going, a Biden candidacy is nothing more than a declaration that Trump is going to be an 8 year president.
Defeating Trump would not be easy and while I do think he would win, there is one way that I've been thinking that it would be disappointing to see Biden become President: he'd probably repeat Obama's mistake of not prosecuting any of the crimes of the previous administration. People in the Bush administration should have been charged for the various illegal things they did!
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My definition of a centrist is a little different than your's. Frankly, I didn't forget the stunts she pulled early in her political career. And yes, Obama was a centrist, but he didn't run as a centrist, he ran as a progressive, at least in rhetoric. And he was charismatic. Biden is not charismatic. Not at all. He's got all the charm of a tepid glass of water left by the sink overnight, if that glass of water also groped women. There's the other thing. Why in god's green HELL are you supporting someone who's that much of a creep? Are you really willing to let that go to tow the party line? Do you honestly think THAT is what is going to get the women's vote?

However, isn't it hilarious that in Trump's attempt to "teach us a lesson", he's just given us everything we could want regarding illegals? He's turning the southern border into ellis island! It's great! Oh yes, his motivations are evil, and there's an extra step involved, but the practical reality is we now have an open southern border legally granting access by express shuttling immigrants to major cities throughout the US. A few hundred per city, easily absorbed without notice.

The democrats need to take the win the bumbling manchild just gave to them.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
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Obama ran to Hillary's right on domestic policy, and to her left on foreign policy. Her health care plan was far better than his, and had she won in '08 we'd have a better health law today, I'm sure. He was never actually a progressive, not in policy. Sure, sort of like a Beto or Buttigieg this year but probably a bigger success from early on he was a good and charismatic speaker who attracted a lot of attention, and got a lot of progressive support, but in policy I don't think he was ever that far left.

And similarly, regardless of how she was 20 or 30 years earlier or how her husband governed, in both '08 and '16 Hillary ran as an unquestionably liberal candidate, particularly on domestic issues.

Quote:And he was charismatic. Biden is not charismatic. Not at all. He's got all the charm of a tepid glass of water left by the sink overnight, if that glass of water also groped women. There's the other thing. Why in god's green HELL are you supporting someone who's that much of a creep? Are you really willing to let that go to tow the party line? Do you honestly think THAT is what is going to get the women's vote?
I do not entirely defend his behavior, but "groped women" isn't accurate as far as we know, nobody has accused Biden of doing anything sexual to them. It was all done in front of the camera because he (wrongly) thought that what he was doing was fine. "Paternalistic sexism" is the best term I've seen to describe it. And, yes, creepy. But so far no one has accused him of anything beyond what we see in the pictures: being a person who's too touchy-feely with both sexes, but women more often, and doesn't ask before doing so. That's not okay behavior, but it's not assault or something.

I agree that Biden isn't nearly as charismatic as Obama, though; there are a lot of reasons that Biden's own previous runs for President ended quickly and with very low polling numbers, he's a mostly quite centrist Democrat, not the most enthusiasm-evoking speaker, and constantly creates gaffes to an infamous degree. And as for this year, he's already talking about how he's an "Obama-Biden Democrat", and from a policy standpoint that's good, but we can do better. How about a President who'd start with actual liberal policies, instead of centrist ones that then get pushed to the right before they become law?

On the other hand though we need to win, and Biden is still polling best, not just in the primaries but against Trump. I'll be interesting to see how that changes as people come to know the other Dems more.


On the other hand, our other top candidate is... the other guy over 75 years old, Bernie. Blah. I'm not definitely opposed to someone that old as President, but it's kind of too bad that both of our top candidates are old men... and that's not even getting into that I still think Bernie would definitely lose.

Quote:However, isn't it hilarious that in Trump's attempt to "teach us a lesson", he's just given us everything we could want regarding illegals? He's turning the southern border into ellis island! It's great! Oh yes, his motivations are evil, and there's an extra step involved, but the practical reality is we now have an open southern border legally granting access by express shuttling immigrants to major cities throughout the US. A few hundred per city, easily absorbed without notice.

The democrats need to take the win the bumbling manchild just gave to them.
Heh, yeah, good point... Trump is very good at "winning", no question!
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You democrats and your obsessive focus on early polling numbers. Biden will lose. Your obsession with winning to the point you will sell out your own principles is exactly what is destroying the republican party. Don't let it destroy you.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
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So, the Mueller Report, redacted, is out, and Barr allowed more of it out than I expected! His behavior here honestly is pretty weird. He goes out there, lies to the press repeatedly, writes and says numerous very pro-Trump statements, and then... allows a whole lot of damaging information out, instead of trying to block it and having it get tied up in court for years. Huh. Of course I'm sure some of the worst stuff is in the redacted parts, but still, it's a little odd.

Anyway, now that we have a better knowledge of the Mueller Report, I can say yet again, Trump MUST be impeached! Yes, he will not be removed, but that's not the point, making a statement that this behavior must be resisted in all ways legally possible is. And impeachment is an important one of those ways.

Quote: You democrats and your obsessive focus on early polling numbers. Biden will lose. Your obsession with winning to the point you will sell out your own principles is exactly what is destroying the republican party. Don't let it destroy you.
Biden has a good chance of winning, but regardless, my question on this vein his why so many people think Bernie can win...
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