6th May 2003, 10:50 AM
(This post was last modified: 6th May 2003, 11:32 AM by A Black Falcon.)
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Well unlike conservatives I actually trust the government to do some good things and think that it'd be a better world with a true world government.
In a perfect world. But it hasn't worked, and won't for a long time, if ever. I explained why above.
Quote:Rome used force to dominate the world as best they could. They didn't try to change anybody out of their territory, really... those were just the barbarians... and not worth their time. What small inroads they tried in Germany they quicklyl abandoned. Rome held together because of the might of its armies... and died when they became weak and dilluted because of decay and overstretching... they didn't try to slowly get the 'barbarians' to see the goodness of some Roman way nearly enough. They did halfhearted efforts that they gave up on... and were destroyed in the end because of it.
What I meant was that the US is at the point where we are the one power. Sure, there are not barbarians out there with big armies to kill us. But, if we alienate the world enough, in some number of generations in the future some group will come along and defeat us like every other group that dominated by using force.
And make no mistake about it -- if we act uniaterally and do things without international sanction it IS using force. No matter how much you sugar coat it... its force. Pure and simple. Exactly as we did to Iraq.
And in the end its things like that that will help give people in future generations reasons to want to get rid of us when we weaken...
But if we involve the international community and make a true world power of great nations acting in concert we could stop that... for a long time, at least. We were progressing on that path until we got this ... president ...
Your entire point is a what-if. It assumes that there will ever be a world power that could threaten us, and at this point that's unlikely, because most nations adopt thinking patterns that limit their own influence and power. It would also assume that we would become so reviled that the entire world could overcome their differences to fight us, and that's impossible, frankly. The reason we are so powerful and will remain so is not because of our strength, but because of our economy, an economy that, unlike many, can be largely self-sufficient if it comes down to that. As it stands, many nations rely on trade with us for their very survival.
You're right. We were proceeding on the path to a world government until this president came along and exposed a few fatal weaknesses in it. World government will only succeed either in a time of great crisis, or when all nations think on the same page.
Quote:So its bad to be proud of your history? Uhhhhhhh.....
Absolutely not.
Quote:Oh, and Napoleon a great man? NO. Sure, he wasn't brutal like many dictators, but he did try to essentially conquer the world for his greater glory... "betterment of mankind"? No way! Essentially all he wanted was money, power, and land... look, sure, the governments of Europe weren't perfect but Napolen wouldn't have been much of any better! All he'd do is put relatives in charge... like he did in Spain...
And Napoleon didn't let off on oppression and wasn't some liberal. He was conservative...
Napoleon was only looking for his own personal ends. He had a gigantic ego. But he did enable the US to double in size... so he's not all bad.
Quote:You just don't get the point at all, do you? Its funny... he says something (that I understand) then people like you and Weltall go off in some other direction that seems to have no connection with what I just read...
Uh, his point was that what you said is both arrogant and wrong. He is right. Sure, some ideas are better... and it'd be great if every nation could be a democracy. But look what you get when unprepared nations become democracies... *looks at Africa*
Yeah, civil war, dictators, "elections" with troops ready to assure the victor, etc. Oh, and he is also correct that it is stupid to think that "they" any stupider than we are. "they" aren't... they're just in a more unfortunate situation. Looking down on them and "telling them what is right" like a parent insults them. Yes, teach them... but not in a condecending, 'i know best' fashion and not just by yourself. Having others around to agree on what to do and to help teach them is clearly the best way to be successful...
"they have sad ideas and we must help them see the light" is neither a productive nor a successful policy... as many empires over the years learned. It just leads to unrest and the hatred of the people of those nations being dominated and "taught". See: British Empire, esp. India.
The 'democracies' of Africa are just like the 'democracy' of Iraq under Saddam: Democracies in name only, a mockery. It's been enough to placate the UN, which refused to do anything about these tragedies. What these nations need is to be helped into their democracy, like we are helping Iraq and helped Serbia to do. No, we can't just give them the basics and stand back, but we can guide them because we DO know best. It's not a matter of bringing savages into the light, it's helping them do it themselves. The US can do this, and the UN could have... SHOULD have. But first, sometimes you must eliminate the cancer that is eating the people first.
Quote:First, the point isn't whether it is true now -- its whether the same person, in that situation, could have said that with as much conviction as Weltall did and sounded right. They could have. Just like Weltall now proclaiming that WE KNOW BEST.
People in a different situation might not think we know best. That doesn't mean they're right.
Quote:Yes, we are more powerful than any empire in the history of the world. Even Ghengis Khan didn't conquer EVERYTHING... he failed to take Japan or Africa... or Europe, though that was just a time issue, not a issue of Europe being stronger. But that really isn't the point here. Every empire inevitably falls as it rises... by force. We rose to empire by destroying our opponent and taking primacy in the world about 10 years ago. So? Every empire rose to heights... then fell...
Again, there are fundamental differences. How did we defeat the Soviet Union? ECONOMICALLY. We bled them dry because they could not compete with us on that very important level, to say nothing of their ruling power being one of extreme oppression and genocide. And we didn't take a single square foot of land from them. We've been an empire since we became more than 13 states in honesty, and a TRUE empire when we took lands from the Spanish a century ago. And since WWII we've been the strongest superpower in the world. Now we're the only one. But we haven't added any land from our fallen foes to our empire in a hundred years, save for perhaps a few islands from Japan. We conquered half of the German Reich and much of Japan's former empire, and we could have assimilated them if we chose. We did not. We made the wise move of allowing them to become free on their own, and the results were a complete success, because we took the time to help them become what they are.
Quote:Oh, and at its height the British Empire controlled more total land area than Ghenghis (well, mostly Canada, but still...) and had 1/4 or so of the world's population in its control... but then it dissolved as its controlled states realized that the British DIDN'T know best after all...
Yes, but the British weren't simply trying to intstall their way of life on people, but their own rule, usually a dominating rule. Had they taken a different approach to ruling their colonies, they might not have had that happen. America might still be a part of Britain had they not oppressed us. Remember, we didn't just decide one day that we didn't want to be a part of Great Britain anymore, we did it after years of oppression from the British parliament and the king.
Quote:If we follow that path, as we are so far, I see a world full of hate for us just waiting for the time we are weak enough to topple. Same as the Romans and British. That just isn't a good vision for the future of the world! [/B]
That is assuming that we ever do become weak enough to topple. Personally, I can't see that happening without some major event making it happen. There are also many other factors that are different from other empires that lead me to believe that it would truly take a huge natural catastrophe or huge civil disorder and civil war to bring America down.
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