5th May 2003, 11:49 PM
Going to answer Nintendarse, Weltall? His posts are honestly better than mine on the issues he covers...
Well unlike conservatives I actually trust the government to do some good things and think that it'd be a better world with a true world government.
Rome used force to dominate the world as best they could. They didn't try to change anybody out of their territory, really... those were just the barbarians... and not worth their time. What small inroads they tried in Germany they quicklyl abandoned. Rome held together because of the might of its armies... and died when they became weak and dilluted because of decay and overstretching... they didn't try to slowly get the 'barbarians' to see the goodness of some Roman way nearly enough. They did halfhearted efforts that they gave up on... and were destroyed in the end because of it.
What I meant was that the US is at the point where we are the one power. Sure, there are not barbarians out there with big armies to kill us. But, if we alienate the world enough, in some number of generations in the future some group will come along and defeat us like every other group that dominated by using force.
And make no mistake about it -- if we act uniaterally and do things without international sanction it IS using force. No matter how much you sugar coat it... its force. Pure and simple. Exactly as we did to Iraq.
And in the end its things like that that will help give people in future generations reasons to want to get rid of us when we weaken...
But if we involve the international community and make a true world power of great nations acting in concert we could stop that... for a long time, at least. We were progressing on that path until we got this ... president ...
So its bad to be proud of your history? Uhhhhhhh.....
Oh, and Napoleon a great man? NO. Sure, he wasn't brutal like many dictators, but he did try to essentially conquer the world for his greater glory... "betterment of mankind"? No way! Essentially all he wanted was money, power, and land... look, sure, the governments of Europe weren't perfect but Napolen wouldn't have been much of any better! All he'd do is put relatives in charge... like he did in Spain...
And Napoleon didn't let off on oppression and wasn't some liberal. He was conservative...
You just don't get the point at all, do you? Its funny... he says something (that I understand) then people like you and Weltall go off in some other direction that seems to have no connection with what I just read...
Uh, his point was that what you said is both arrogant and wrong. He is right. Sure, some ideas are better... and it'd be great if every nation could be a democracy. But look what you get when unprepared nations become democracies... *looks at Africa*
Yeah, civil war, dictators, "elections" with troops ready to assure the victor, etc. Oh, and he is also correct that it is stupid to think that "they" any stupider than we are. "they" aren't... they're just in a more unfortunate situation. Looking down on them and "telling them what is right" like a parent insults them. Yes, teach them... but not in a condecending, 'i know best' fashion and not just by yourself. Having others around to agree on what to do and to help teach them is clearly the best way to be successful...
"they have sad ideas and we must help them see the light" is neither a productive nor a successful policy... as many empires over the years learned. It just leads to unrest and the hatred of the people of those nations being dominated and "taught". See: British Empire, esp. India.
First, the point isn't whether it is true now -- its whether the same person, in that situation, could have said that with as much conviction as Weltall did and sounded right. They could have. Just like Weltall now proclaiming that WE KNOW BEST.
Yes, we are more powerful than any empire in the history of the world. Even Ghengis Khan didn't conquer EVERYTHING... he failed to take Japan or Africa... or Europe, though that was just a time issue, not a issue of Europe being stronger. But that really isn't the point here. Every empire inevitably falls as it rises... by force. We rose to empire by destroying our opponent and taking primacy in the world about 10 years ago. So? Every empire rose to heights... then fell...
Oh, and at its height the British Empire controlled more total land area than Ghenghis (well, mostly Canada, but still...) and had 1/4 or so of the world's population in its control... but then it dissolved as its controlled states realized that the British DIDN'T know best after all...
If we follow that path, as we are so far, I see a world full of hate for us just waiting for the time we are weak enough to topple. Same as the Romans and British. That just isn't a good vision for the future of the world!
Quote:Oh fer God's sakes, no. Look, I really appreciate how you'd enjoy yet another layer of bureaucracy to steal your money and tell you how to live, but nut-uh, not gonna happen, not in my lifetime.
Well unlike conservatives I actually trust the government to do some good things and think that it'd be a better world with a true world government.
Quote:With all due respect, that is an idiotic statement. How did "it" come back to haunt Rome? All peoples the Romans conquered were submitted and assimilated, might did indeed make right for them. In fact, they were defeated by those against whom they failed to use might and instead tried to be buddy-buddy with: Germans and Sassanid Persians. The British Empire was dismembered with the greatest caution because the people who ran it understood that it was not the right way, and Britain still has amicable relations with most of its former possessions. I do not recall anything blowing up in the face of the British, perhaps you could enlighten me. The French did face the Algerian crisis, but one case hardly makes a majority, and doesn't make up very good evidence for you to say you "WILL be next".
Rome used force to dominate the world as best they could. They didn't try to change anybody out of their territory, really... those were just the barbarians... and not worth their time. What small inroads they tried in Germany they quicklyl abandoned. Rome held together because of the might of its armies... and died when they became weak and dilluted because of decay and overstretching... they didn't try to slowly get the 'barbarians' to see the goodness of some Roman way nearly enough. They did halfhearted efforts that they gave up on... and were destroyed in the end because of it.
What I meant was that the US is at the point where we are the one power. Sure, there are not barbarians out there with big armies to kill us. But, if we alienate the world enough, in some number of generations in the future some group will come along and defeat us like every other group that dominated by using force.
And make no mistake about it -- if we act uniaterally and do things without international sanction it IS using force. No matter how much you sugar coat it... its force. Pure and simple. Exactly as we did to Iraq.
And in the end its things like that that will help give people in future generations reasons to want to get rid of us when we weaken...
But if we involve the international community and make a true world power of great nations acting in concert we could stop that... for a long time, at least. We were progressing on that path until we got this ... president ...
Quote:I think I'll agree to say precisely the contrary that you did, my good man. The French have no business being proud of French accomplishments unless they took part in them firsthand.
On the contrary, Napoleon was a great man, sir. France has had many great leaders throughout the ages, and Napoleon Buonaparte was perhaps the greatest. He was a man not afraid to take to arms and fight an enemy often much more powerful than himself, for both his own glory and the institution of better government for mankind; two entirely valid and just purposes. It is outright insulting to the human mind to claim that Napoleon had no "right" to impose his code of laws on a decayed society based on exploitation of the largest part of the population. When men are scared, when men don't know any better, when men rot in that kind of social state, it is up to the better ones among them to make a stand and lead them against those who oppress them. I would like to add that in Quebec, Napoleonic Code is still law.
So its bad to be proud of your history? Uhhhhhhh.....
Oh, and Napoleon a great man? NO. Sure, he wasn't brutal like many dictators, but he did try to essentially conquer the world for his greater glory... "betterment of mankind"? No way! Essentially all he wanted was money, power, and land... look, sure, the governments of Europe weren't perfect but Napolen wouldn't have been much of any better! All he'd do is put relatives in charge... like he did in Spain...
And Napoleon didn't let off on oppression and wasn't some liberal. He was conservative...
Quote:I think it doesn't. You're not even examining the ideas at hand here, you're just assuming no idea is superior. According to you, the human race has made no progress whatsoever in its mode of government over the past HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of YEARS *clears throat*. Dude, if you want us to go live in caves and pick the lice out of each other's hair, just say it.
Some ideas are superior. Some societies are unfortunate enough to not have said ideas. Take the lead, and show them.
This isn't justifying people like Hitler and whatever other evil beings you listed in there, but it's not because those people tried to impose their will on others. It's because their ideas were clearly inferior, and even more clear after mankind experimented with them and demonstrated their inferiority.
You just don't get the point at all, do you? Its funny... he says something (that I understand) then people like you and Weltall go off in some other direction that seems to have no connection with what I just read...
Uh, his point was that what you said is both arrogant and wrong. He is right. Sure, some ideas are better... and it'd be great if every nation could be a democracy. But look what you get when unprepared nations become democracies... *looks at Africa*
Yeah, civil war, dictators, "elections" with troops ready to assure the victor, etc. Oh, and he is also correct that it is stupid to think that "they" any stupider than we are. "they" aren't... they're just in a more unfortunate situation. Looking down on them and "telling them what is right" like a parent insults them. Yes, teach them... but not in a condecending, 'i know best' fashion and not just by yourself. Having others around to agree on what to do and to help teach them is clearly the best way to be successful...
"they have sad ideas and we must help them see the light" is neither a productive nor a successful policy... as many empires over the years learned. It just leads to unrest and the hatred of the people of those nations being dominated and "taught". See: British Empire, esp. India.
Quote:And this would be correct and right, if it weren't an outright lie. If fascist dictators really would get things done, and not allow or cause atrocities to occur, and allow freedom also (I kinda value that personally), would Fascism not be superior to all other forms of government? I believe it would, but that statement is a lie, thus it isn't.
I will also add that the United States of America, if you consider them an empire, are unlike any other empire that ever existed. The Romans, the Chinese, none even neared the amount of influence the USA has on the planet. There may be *one* that comes close... that is, it comes close if you agree to remove three and a half continents from the face of the Earth, and that is the empire of the Great Khan, who styled himself Conqueror of the Universe. He barely came close to the amount of influence and power America has, and remained united for perhaps a century. The United States will be here much longer than that
First, the point isn't whether it is true now -- its whether the same person, in that situation, could have said that with as much conviction as Weltall did and sounded right. They could have. Just like Weltall now proclaiming that WE KNOW BEST.
Yes, we are more powerful than any empire in the history of the world. Even Ghengis Khan didn't conquer EVERYTHING... he failed to take Japan or Africa... or Europe, though that was just a time issue, not a issue of Europe being stronger. But that really isn't the point here. Every empire inevitably falls as it rises... by force. We rose to empire by destroying our opponent and taking primacy in the world about 10 years ago. So? Every empire rose to heights... then fell...
Oh, and at its height the British Empire controlled more total land area than Ghenghis (well, mostly Canada, but still...) and had 1/4 or so of the world's population in its control... but then it dissolved as its controlled states realized that the British DIDN'T know best after all...
If we follow that path, as we are so far, I see a world full of hate for us just waiting for the time we are weak enough to topple. Same as the Romans and British. That just isn't a good vision for the future of the world!