4th May 2003, 9:57 PM
Quote:The United States is what the world should strive to be. And since you have an obviously negative opinion about America, let's think about things in relativity: We can be all that you say. We can be the guide, the friend, the police and the parent. There's no reason we can't do all that. A human being can. A man can be a cop, a father, a friend, etc. and can do all of them without compromising any. And it's extremely unfair to say we're failures at it. Nothing could be farther from the truth. True, we're not perfect, no one is. We've messed things up at times. But we have also done incredible good. The world is only as peaceful and stable as it is because of the United States. We created the world's most successful, most free, and most stable form of government, and it has taken hold in much of the world, casting out ancient monarchies and despots. We rid the world of fascism, and Communism is in it's definite late-stages. Right now you see people in Iraq protesting out presence. That alone speaks volumes of how much more free those people are. There was a reason Saddam never saw any protest marches, and it wasn't because he was loved. Even now, we send countless billions of dollars to countless foreign nations to help them operate and function. This nation has the capacity to change the world for the better, and I think that's exactly what we're doing.
First, we spend less of our GDP on foreign aid then any other developed nation in the world.
Second, we defeated communism all right... by propping up dozens of brutal dictatorships and reigns of terrror all over the world...
And third, if we do what you want we will not be any of the things that Nintendarse said. Except the brutal agressor forcing our will on everyone. We cannot do what Bush is doing and be any of those things in any effective manner.
Quote:First, if he's such a moron, why do his popularity ratings keep going up? Why is it that almost everything he does ends up being a success? Why is it that a president who barely won an election suddenly enjoying the praise of over two-thirds of the people?
Because of 9/11 and the war, of course... you know that. When things like that happen I'd certainly expect most people to fall behind the president in some fashion... its human nature...
What should be more important for 2004 is the other numbers: how about the one that only 49% approve of his handling of the economy (and 47% disapprove)? That says something... and its dropping...
Quote:Second: That makes no sense. Bush Sr. was voted out of office because of the Gulf War? Sure, he didn't finish the job like he should have, but the war was still an incredible success. Bush Sr lost re-election because of Ross Perot. Remember that Clinton won the election with less than fifty percent of the vote. Had Perot not split the ticket, Bush would have been a lock. How that could possibly have caused Bush Jr. to be obsessed with taking out Saddam Hussein isn't something I can comprehend.
Bush Sr. mostly lost because of the economy, for sure... but not defeating Sadaam hurt him and left a black mark on his record by the opinion of the hawks and many conservatives.
Quote:I'll dissect this point by point...
Yes, I think we should put our interests above others. I think it is contingent to make our interests shared with others. But above all else, you have to look out for number one.
Okay, I greatly underestimate what the international community can do to us. They really can hurt us, you say. Some already do, you say.
How?
What is the international community doing to us that is hurting us so badly? How have they EVER been able to hurt us? The oil embargo of the 70's is about as bad as anything, and we were able to survive that with no problem. So what is it, Mr. Liberal? What dire consequences await us for going against the world? What important assets are we losing? I want you to tell me. You said I ignore good points, which is funny coming from someone who constantly does the same with me. So I want you now to tell me, how badly will this hurt us. And no silly vague answers. You said the repercussions would be severe, and that we need the international community as much as they need us. I'm asking you to prove it. Will you?
Of course not.
I don't go into detail because I know you'd just ignore it and the time would be wasted.
Also, what can they do? Well, in some issues they do rely on us. Small, third or second world nations will, for sure, continue to suck up to whatever US government is in office to get more foreign aid. The governments of eastern and central europe did that for this war. But unlike you, I CARE what the rest of the world feels about us. I think that it MATTERS that most of the world hates us. You don't. Sure, what they can do is limited -- voting against us in the UN, voting us off UN commisions we should be on, not exactly agreeing with everything the US wants... and if we cut this off soon the damage won't be too bad. But if we don't, and let their dislike simmer for a long time... it will get progressively worse.
As I said, this a long term thing... and its not just about economic impact. I, unlike you, think that the public opinion of the world about us is relevant.
Quote:Exactly. That is exactly why we should start drilling right away: There's no good reason not to.
The wildlife of Anwar is far, far more important than a few barrels of oil.
Quote:You do realize that reconstruction usually costs a lot of money, don' you? It's the effects of reconstruction that bring in benefit, and that takes many years.
Sure. And it'll be a VERY hard thing for us to pay with this budget crisis and NO ONE ELSE TO SHARE THE BILL WITH (remember the first Gulf War? And how we had a REAL alliance on our side that PAID for almost ALL of the war?) Remember now? How we have ALMOST NO ONE helping to foot the bill? Hmm... great "cooalition of the willing". AKA "list of nations that aren't completely against our policy". If this was WWII, that "cooalition" would have Switzerland in it...
Quote:And then oil prices go way down, and everyone who owns and operates a car or heater ends up benefiting, a vast majority of them poor or middle class. Wow, such a terrible tragedy. I weep tears of blood
You never said it was his prime motivation? Hah. If I had a few hours to look through old posts I'm sure I could disprove that.
I'm trying to find good motivations, but there are so few that its pretty hard...
Quote:That's shallow, baseless, and just plain bullshit. And you know it. You won't kick out weapons inspectors for such a vague reason. You're going to do it because you don't want them to see something... or somethings.
No, I think he did hate us and the inspectors that much... its very, very clear that after kicking them out he didn't restart his weapons program, so the only motivations I can see are anger, time (to delay, as usual, and to give time to get rid of or hide deeper whatever small amounts of weapons he had left)
Dictators aren't exactly rational all the time, you know... and when in a tough situation they do what will help them survive and become more stable in rule. In Sadaam's case, he made it standing against the US and UN and hoping to build Arab support behind him so he would be able to stay in power indefinitely. It failed, of course.