4th May 2003, 9:15 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Nintendarse
Weltall, please take the time to read my posts. You have continually dodged all of the good points that I have made in the Debate forum. It's frustrating.
What do you see as the United States' role in the world?
Should we be the police, the enforcer of international law, the instrument of justice?
Should we be self-focused, only acting in situations that threaten our interests, only enforcing law when it benefits us, making friends that benefit us and dumping friends that threaten us?
Should we be the parent, the entity that helps the world to grow through a mixture of discipline and kindness? And as a father, should we determine what the world should look like?
Should we be selfless, unwilling to take the spoils of our power, acting for higher principles?
Should we be a friend, a supporting person that has limited power in forming the world, but shares his opinion?
We have tried to be all of these in the recent past, and so we are a convoluted entity. We are the corrupt policeman who acts as the judge, jury, and executioner. We are the selfish boy that veils his narcissism with the pretense of justice. We are the brutal father that is unwilling to listen to his child. We are the fallen angel. We are the deceptive friend. Where we try to be everything, we fail at everything.
So what is the United States, Weltall?
The United States is what the world should strive to be. And since you have an obviously negative opinion about America, let's think about things in relativity: We can be all that you say. We can be the guide, the friend, the police and the parent. There's no reason we can't do all that. A human being can. A man can be a cop, a father, a friend, etc. and can do all of them without compromising any. And it's extremely unfair to say we're failures at it. Nothing could be farther from the truth. True, we're not perfect, no one is. We've messed things up at times. But we have also done incredible good. The world is only as peaceful and stable as it is because of the United States. We created the world's most successful, most free, and most stable form of government, and it has taken hold in much of the world, casting out ancient monarchies and despots. We rid the world of fascism, and Communism is in it's definite late-stages. Right now you see people in Iraq protesting out presence. That alone speaks volumes of how much more free those people are. There was a reason Saddam never saw any protest marches, and it wasn't because he was loved. Even now, we send countless billions of dollars to countless foreign nations to help them operate and function. This nation has the capacity to change the world for the better, and I think that's exactly what we're doing.
And don't say I ignore your points, it's not true. I even agree with you at times.
Quote:Uhh... try READING what I say first. Becuase that just makes no sense whatsoever.
First, Bush is a moron. Not especially smart. He is controlled by his advisors because they are smarter than he is.
Second, he does want to make up for his father's mistake. While his father didn't do it for good reasons, Bush sees how he was tossed out of office and wants to right that "wrong".
There?
First, if he's such a moron, why do his popularity ratings keep going up? Why is it that almost everything he does ends up being a success? Why is it that a president who barely won an election suddenly enjoying the praise of over two-thirds of the people?
Second: That makes no sense. Bush Sr. was voted out of office because of the Gulf War? Sure, he didn't finish the job like he should have, but the war was still an incredible success. Bush Sr lost re-election because of Ross Perot. Remember that Clinton won the election with less than fifty percent of the vote. Had Perot not split the ticket, Bush would have been a lock. How that could possibly have caused Bush Jr. to be obsessed with taking out Saddam Hussein isn't something I can comprehend.
I said it would keep getting funnier, and I was right. First it was Bush's vendetta, then it was... ah hell, you keep changing it so much I don't even know what it is anymore. There's no rational way to explain how this could be an obsessive vendetta on Bush's part. But I know rationality is a foreign concept for you, so keep it up, laughter's good medicine.
Quote:First read Nintendarse's post. It is very good.
Now, you seem to think that the US should act only in its own interests, rest of the world with us or not. And also that their opinion is irrelevant. You greatly underestimate the power of a international community nearly united against us, Weltall... they can do all kinds of things to hurt us. Some they are already doing. You will just brush it off with another 'they will do what we want because we are strong' but it just doesn't work that way! You will see in the future how badly you underestimated their strength... Oh, and we CANNOT live without them. You also greatly underestimate how much we rely on the international community in almost every way.
I'll dissect this point by point...
Yes, I think we should put our interests above others. I think it is contingent to make our interests shared with others. But above all else, you have to look out for number one.
Okay, I greatly underestimate what the international community can do to us. They really can hurt us, you say. Some already do, you say.
How?
What is the international community doing to us that is hurting us so badly? How have they EVER been able to hurt us? The oil embargo of the 70's is about as bad as anything, and we were able to survive that with no problem. So what is it, Mr. Liberal? What dire consequences await us for going against the world? What important assets are we losing? I want you to tell me. You said I ignore good points, which is funny coming from someone who constantly does the same with me. So I want you now to tell me, how badly will this hurt us. And no silly vague answers. You said the repercussions would be severe, and that we need the international community as much as they need us. I'm asking you to prove it. Will you?
Of course not.
Moving right along...
Quote:They're with Bin Laden and Sadaam, right?
Time will tell. That's probably not a completely inaccurate prediction, assuming either one is still alive, and there's no convincing evidence that either are.
Quote:There can't be a better one.
Exactly. That is exactly why we should start drilling right away: There's no good reason not to.
Quote:Why don't you start first? Because once again what you are saying has no relationship with the truth or what I said...
Gas companies will get HUGE rebuilding contracts from the US government. They will make a LOT of money off of them, rebuilding Iraq's ancient oil infrastructure and then getting money off of the oil. It also greatly decreases our need to rely on the Saudis... MUCH MUCH more than Anwar ever would.
You do realize that reconstruction usually costs a lot of money, don' you? It's the effects of reconstruction that bring in benefit, and that takes many years.
Quote:I never said it was his prime motivation (though France, several other European nations, and the whole Middle East seems to think that)... but it is a major one. Bush helps business, business helps Bush... the tax cuts, which almost exculsively help the rich and businesses, are another example of that.
And then oil prices go way down, and everyone who owns and operates a car or heater ends up benefiting, a vast majority of them poor or middle class. Wow, such a terrible tragedy. I weep tears of blood :(
You never said it was his prime motivation? Hah. If I had a few hours to look through old posts I'm sure I could disprove that.
Quote: Because Sadaam hates us, and them, and doesn't want them there, weapons or not. As I'd expect from a evil antiamerican isolationist dictator.
That's shallow, baseless, and just plain bullshit. And you know it. You won't kick out weapons inspectors for such a vague reason. You're going to do it because you don't want them to see something... or somethings.
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