14th July 2010, 10:19 PM
(This post was last modified: 15th July 2010, 10:32 AM by A Black Falcon.)
Fittisize Wrote:I've never talked to any Chinese women on the topic before, but I do know it's wrong to conflate the two issues, just as is the implication from that quote that veiled Muslim women are "programmed" and harbour zero free will of their own.
Foot-binding was extremely common in China for many centuries until finally in the early 20th century the practice was cracked down on and stopped. Women's feet were made "beautiful" and miniscule, at the cost of leaving them barely able to walk thanks to their destroyed, broken feet... but how many would have complained about it, or said that anything was wrong with the practice? Very few, because it's not human nature to question things like that about your own society, even when you are the one suffering the most from it. That's my point, and it's one that you and others like you continually fail to understand.
Anyway, despite the indoctrination from birth (would you prefer "learning"? Humans learn how their cultures are from birth from observing around them. This happens in all human cultures. People then accept what they see as normal. Once they reach this point, few will question their society. This is just the way people are.), certainly some Islamic women do challenge the way their societies are. The ones that try to break free from the mold often get murdered by their male family members, or perhaps by the state. When the indoctrination doesn't work, physical violence keeps people in line.
Recent example -- Two Afghan girls are married off at the age of 12 or 13. They are treated badly, raped by their husbands, and more, and run away. They get home, but once there their fathers take them out into the hills and murder them for the "shame" they brought on the family.
There is another, happier recent example where in a very similar situation the girls were allowed to stay home and freed from the marriage, but the first case shows why few would try...
Example - Girls' schools in Afghanistan are a top target of the Taliban -- many have been destroyed, there have been attacks on schoolgirls (throwing acid at their faces, for example, in some cases blinding them). An educated population will not simply follow mindlessly -- and this is why womens' education is one of the most centrally important factors in the fight for the rights of Islamic women -- as long as their men keep them ignorant, they will never realize that they could potentially have any other options. Education also reduces birthrates, which are far too high in places like Afghanistan, so there are multiple benefits. The Taliban and others like them, of course, want women stupid and ignorant and men only knowledgeable of the Koran as they teach it and absolutely nothing else, so education is something they try hard to stop... which is of course part of why it's so important why we support it.
I could continue, with other issues such as how it's a death penalty offense to be gay in most of the Middle East (Iran has regularly hanged gay men, along with women who have sex before marriage; they hang teenagers for these "offenses" too, and do not limit themselves to just adults), but I think that's enough for now. We should not just accept these things.
Quote:Again with the hyperbole! Obviously that's something I wouldn't be defending, but chances are, if the Aztecs were still around, they wouldn't still be conducting mass human sacrifices. I guess we'll never know though, because the entire civilization was wiped off the face of the Earth. Oh well! Clearly the Conquistadors were more socially progressive.
I'm sure you're joking on that last point, but of course, the Spanish had disease on their side. It's hard to win a war when most of your people are dropping dead...
Well, disease and technology, but those were the two keys.
Anyway, yes, of course I was talking about a hypothetical scenario where they hadn't changed their religion. Unlikely, yes, but it was an example, and a decent one I think.
Quote:Never did I say that we should sit back and say "That's fine," I just don't advocate Western superiority over other cultures. I especially don't subscribe to the imperialistic notion of "making" anybody do anything. To "make" Muslim women see where "they" are going is more like making them see where YOU want them to go. There's a powerful, growing branch of Muslim feminisim that's separate from the Western ideology. Believe it or not, it's quite possible that universally advocating Western values in places that are clearly non-Western does a lot of harm. It's also possible that women in the Middle East have brains and the capacity to fight within their own system on their own terms.
I think that what I say above about how people come to believe in the culture they grew up with, even if it is extremely biased against them, covers all the "points" in this post. I guess you still don't understand that fact. Also though, you misunderstand me. We in the West certainly don't have all the answers and I didn't say we did. The goal is not to "make" them do anything, but to improve status and grow equality. You are right that there is a conservative Islamic backlash against it, and against ideas like civic culture, humanism, liberalism, feminism that really advocates for greater equality (both in the West and anywhere else, sometimes the term "feminist" is misused by people whose goals are not equality, or in favor of inequality... I can think of examples of such things pretty much anywhere. That is not real feminism.), and more. This is quite understandable, but a lot of it is based on fear and a lack of understanding, I think... I mean, I would never advocate for their cultures to become just like ours or something! They aren't us. But could they have a society that is distinctly their own, but isn't horribly biased and unfree? Yes, I am sure they could. The great variance between Muslim countries, the ones that are much more like this, shows that it is possible... it will just take time, with how unbelievably sexist and dominating their culture currently is.
My mom (a strong liberal and feminist, like everyone in our family) has said many times that with how the Islamic world oppresses the female half of its population so much, it's no surprise that Islam stagnated... and she's certainly not the only one. In business, education, and more, the fact that women in the Middle East are so oppressed is a big problem -- half of their talent pool is going almost entirely unused. Bill Gates mentioned that problem, at some point. He was asked when he thought the Middle East would get closer to the West in business or education... and he responded, when the Middle East stops ignoring half of their populations, or something along those lines. And he is absolutely right.
I guess you would respond that things like what France is doing don't help that cause... and I'm not sure whether they do or don't. Really, the issue of Muslims in France and that of reform in the Islamic world, though thoroughly mixed in this discussion, are separate ones. In Europe or America there are different expectations for people, and we should expect people to follow our rules and understand our cultures if they are going to stay here, yes? That's different from theoretical or ongoing reforms in the Middle East or the Islamic world in general. Does France doing this hurt that cause, by angering the Islamic world? That would be your main point, I think. Hmm... I don't know. I just think that either way on that, we must stand up for our rights and our Constitutions... because rights that you don't defend you lose.
Oh yeah, and on a related note, for some reason what you said there reminded me of Huntington's theory of the clash of civilizations -- that the world's cultures should stay apart and separate. We should stay out, civilizations cannot get along, all we can do is stand back and let them do their thing...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clash_of_Civilizations
I have always disliked that theory greatly. While cultures are different, and that can be a barrier and can sometimes make complete understanding very difficult, it doesn't mean that we cannot get along, or that we cannot work together. Difficult at times, yes. Impossible, no. That is not the way America operates, and it's not the way we SHOULD operate. Of course we go too far sometimes, but trying to improve things in the world is good, and while we have done bad things we have also done good... and I think we can do more good than bad in the future. Europe seems to have sort of given up on improving the world, but America hasn't, and that's one way Europe and America are different I think...
Quote:Again, that's not what I'm saying. I'm advocating for action against sexist societies, I just don't think that the actions taken in France are the right way to go about it.
Your idea of "action" sure does seem to involve a lot of doing nothing, and allowing violently sexist societies to enforce their own laws even in Western countries. That is absurd and horrible, and that is the point here -- when a person moves to France, or America, they should expect to have to learn to believe in and follow the laws and governmental philosophies of that country. The problem Europe is having is that too many people are coming into Europe, but expect to keep their own, anti-free cultures even in Europe. Keep their own culture? Certainly, fine with me, diversity is good. Keep their own violent, sexist ways? NO! You keep trying to equate the two, as if opposing sexism is opposing cultures, but that is simply not the case. The two are different!
So, to be clear -- what kinds of actual actions are you supporting?
I believe that we should not condone their anti-free violence, their murders of people who do not share their religious views (see Theo Van Gogh, once again), their murders (IN THE WEST TOO, not just in their home countries!) of women and girls who try to become "Too Western" and want insane things like control over their own lives and bodies, boyfriends, Western clothing, etc, and so much more. Banning burquas does not do away with all of this, certainly. In this we agree. But is it a step? Yes, yes it is.
Quote:You know that's not Islam, just like extremists murdering abortion doctors in America isn't Christianity.
In terms of extremism, sure those are comparable, probably... except that the number of fundamentalis Christians who actually kill people over abortion is extremely small, while the number of Muslims who kill over these things is huge. Even many Christians understand that things like Virgin Mary statues made of dung or what have you are things that deserve freedom of speech. They disagree with it, but many will admit that it shouldn't be banned, and even the ones who don't almost never use violence, but just political and social pressure -- being a part of America's civic culture. If only Islam had advanced to that point. Hopefully, someday they will develop a version of civic culture too. As I said in my last post some signs of it are definitely developing today, and there is hope for its further development I would say. Hopefully it continues to spread.
Quote:Yes indeed. Some of its participants are even veiled.
I don't really know what else to say. I wish you would have read my above post a bit more closely before acusing me of being a sympathizer of sexist, extremist cultures who thinks oppression of women is okay. I made it clear that I believe in the exact opposite. The situation is far more complicated than simply believing that everything about Islam is ass-backward and oppressive and that The West has all the answers to everybody's problems.
Since when did I say that the West has all the answers? We don't, and I never said that. But on gender issues, we are more progressive than they are, and that's what my focus is on here.