24th March 2010, 12:58 PM
Weltall Wrote:What a load of self-serving horseshit.
None of those are anywhere even remotely as bad as the kind of things in that poll, or the kinds of things said about Obama by the right.
Bush as the Antichrist? Obviously meant as a joke, not something serious. Not true about Obama as the Antichrist.
Bush evil? Well, he certainly did a lot of evil...
The same goes for "He's an idiot", I mean obviously he isn't really an idiot, just intellectually incurious and uncaring, and completely unfit to be president. But it's easy to just generalize and call him stupid. But I really, really don't think that that's anywhere remotely as bad as what the right is saying about Obama...
The same goes for talk of secession, sure there was a little joking talk of secession up here, but nobody actually meant any of it like some in Texas almost seem to...
I mean yeah, if you mean that there were insults, of course there were. And I'd say that most of them were deserved. But they just weren't the kind of virulent, violent hatred that you are getting from the far right today. Liberals just aren't like that in general...
Geno Wrote:Yeah, I will have to agree that there's just as much douchebaggery coming from the left as there is from the right. The difference is that the right wing extremists are more popular, it seems. Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, etc. actually get airtime. Most of the liberal extremism comes from the internet.
Absolutely. Conservative extremism has a huge, loud public voice in America. We can see that pretty obviously today. Liberal extremism? Minimal, barely noticed, and not important. What there is is on the internet, and isn't very influential. There's a massive difference between the two. Just looking at liberals during Bush vs. conservatives during Obama should show that very clearly...
Quote:And yeah, I'm assuming Unreadphilosophy is referring to Ron Paul there. He's about the only Republican I'd ever vote for.
I'm sure he is referring to Ron Paul.
Quote:Some points I would like to make. Where this poll very cleary says that while these numbers are higher amongst GOP members, it also makes it very clear that a sizable number of non-GOP share these beliefs. Also, with most of these statistics, take for example 67% of GOP v. 40% others... since the GOP is not a majority party, isn't the 40% of others a far bigger number? While these numbers are nothing to be proud of, I think you're over-emphasizing the GOP role. Another way to read that is:
"Overall" includes Republicans you know, right? The vast majority of people who believe those things are Republican.
Quote:The only one of the allegations which may hold any water is that he is a socialist. Dictionary.com says that socialism is "a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole." Is not his enormous health care bill driving this industry out of private hands and into the dubious safety of the government? Would you honestly stand here and say to me that Obama is a free-market capitalist? If he is not, then what is he?
Considering that there isn't even a public option, much less universal health care, absolutely not. This is actually a MASSIVE GIVEAWAY to private companies! Michael Moore said recently that if health care companies weren't as incredibly greedy they'd love this bill, because they're getting something like 90% of what they wanted... but they fight it tooth and nail because they wanted 100%.
I mean, this bill says that ALL AMERICANS MUST BUY THEIR PRODUCTS, and there will be no competition from the government over it. Yes, there are more restrictions, and it's harder now for them to drop people's coverage and such, but the healthcare industry, sadly, wins overall from this bill, not loses as they should. This is very, very far from a socialist bill. I wish Obama was a socialist, we might have had a better bill today...
UnreadPhilosophy Wrote:Remember: Socialism isn't something that happens over night. It's an ideology that doesn't occur overnight. All political ideologies--capitalism, socialism, communism--take time to form. Do I believe that we're heading toward socialism? Yes, I do. Falcon can take that comment any way he likes.
If America did healthcare like most of Western Europe does, that is, using a socialist system, we'd be paying less and be getting more for it. So yes, I hope it goes that way eventually... for-profit health care is a failed experiment.
Unreadphilosophy Wrote:You're a Republican. I'm not surprised that you would be willing to defend him. Just know that I've never supported him or this war. Anything you say to me will more than likely go in one ear and out the other.
You know, I'm surprised that you defend this war. Most of the atheists that I've met are against it. You're the first secular Republican I've met that lumps himself in a support group dominated by fundamentalists. Awkward kudos to you.
Apart from the atheism, he's pretty much a down-the-line Republican... it is kind of an odd mix, agreed.
As for the war, much of the left is also very frustrated over Obama's support for the wars, and it's definitely fueling some of the liberal disenchantment over Obama. The fact that they FINALLY got health care done helps there some, but it was without a public option, which is bad, and Obama's still supporting the wars, which many liberals oppose...
Myself I think that we do have to keep on in the Afghanistan effort, and we are slowly pulling out of Iraq so that one is finally ending, but yeah, I'm not sure if I'm in the majority of liberals in thinking that we do have to be doing something in Afghanistan...
Geno Wrote:Correlating Bush to Hitler, while hyperbole, was at least understandable: Bush started a war. But seriously, where are the Obama-Hitler comparisons coming from? They promised change during a time of turmoil, they were popular when campaigning... and that's it? Hitler was a mass-murderer; he isn't so abhorred today because he forced a healthcare bill into law.
Bush can't be Hitler, Hitler was actually competent, for the most part... Bush was just a weak person being controlled most of the time by the people actually in power, such as Dick Cheney. Cheney's by far the most "evil" one in the Bush administration, followed by his cohorts such as Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, not Bush...
When Bush got into office, there were both centrist and neocon wings in his administration -- Rummy, Wolfowitz, and Cheney on the neocon side, and Condileeza Rice, Colin Powell, any residual Bush I influence, and some others on the more centrist side. After a big fight, the neocons won... but I don't think Bush came into office as a neocon, and I don't know if he ever really was one. He probably did become one, but still, he was never a Cheney... and that's why Cheney was the one I most wanted impeached during the Bush administration. He was responsible for the most crimes.