16th November 2004, 6:35 PM
Quote:Your point was that games cannot tell good stories because those types of games generally don't sell well is for the most part true, I never contested that. But that very same point only proves my point since BG is a great-selling series.
It says that BG doesn't have the same kind of style and artistic quality as some other games, but as I spent quite some time saying it does not say that BG has a bad story. That is, unless you call all normal fantasy "bad stories", because as I said BG is right about the same as plenty of fantasy books I've read. Certainly most D&D books don't have vastly better stories than that game, or D&D modules, and the D&D game is what Baldur's Gate tries to be...
Oh, and nice to see you acknowledge (if not in direct words) that Torment might be different in these regards. Of course without playing it you can't say much more than that, but it's seen as different and unique for a reason.
Quote:I was hoping that you would reply like this.
Yes indeed, video games are a visual medium! And because of that, you need to present stories visually! In something like Reservoir Dogs you have very long scenes just with people sitting around talking to each other, and it does it very effectively. Just like Baldur's Gate! However--and I stress that you pay the utmost attention right here--in Reservoir Dogs we get riveting performances from the cast. It's not just static figures with word balloons over their heads, it's several fine actors delivering their dialogue (i.e. presenting it). It is the execution of the dialogue that makes the movie so good, not just the dialogue itself! Without all of these elements 'Dogs would not have been a good movie. I really hope you understand what I'm saying now. I'm just trying to enlighten you on this subject, so I hope your ego doesn't get in the way of seeing that I'm right about this.
As I've said before, for a lot of games I prefer both text AND words. I know I've said that one of my favorite features in Eternal Darkness was the adventure game-inspired "look at object and get a text description" feature. I also love how Torment has much more points to click on and get text descriptions than either BG or Icewind Dale game (all four of those titles have an extremely small number of them, while Torment has a good amount). So yes, games are a visual medium, but they are also a written one. And each medium does something the other cannot do in quite the same way (unless the text is all voiced as well, which sometimes happens and can help the game but does not make it a more visual medium because the voice is just supplementing the text).
Yes, games are not photorealistic. So as I said, you should replace that with text. That's what books do, and what good games often do as well... and there is one other aspect in BG. The character is supposed to be "you". That is, you are in the game. It's not someone else who you watch the emotions of, it's you and you are supposed to choose how to proceed... yes, it's a story so the choices are limited, but you get those choices. And you can take as much or as little feeling from the statements you read as you wish... it's all about how much you are playing the character of your main character (and using your imagination too I guess).
Quote:How did I dodge your issue? You said that there aren't many games that can compare to "high literature". I said that that wasn't the point.
... um, isn't your whole point that more games should be moving in that direction, or at least taking influences from them for their story direction? We both agreed that not all games can be that way, but you certainly seem to be saying that not nearly enough games do this and the ones that do not are deficient. And now you say that that isn't the point? You aren't consistent it seems. Hmm... okay, so you say that not all games can be "high" works. This is true. Then you say that games fail to execute their stories well. So, how should they do this better? Your implied response is that they should emulate "high" works. So they're supposed to take elements from such works but not try to be them because of their relative unpopularity? Or what... your position here is somewhat confusing.
I mean, you say method and execution must change and then all the examples that you mention of the direction to change them in seem to move them directly into the realm of higher literature. Then deny that the goal should be most games being higher literature.
Quote:I did enjoy the direct controls, but it doesn't have the best gameplay of all adventure games.
It was a pretty standard adventure game with some good puzzles, but it was the fantastic story and great setting that really made it as good as it is... that and the uniqueness of a "displayless" game -- no icons or buttons or anything on the screen, ever. It was an interesting game design decision that led to it feeling different... more cinematic or something perhaps? Of course it required you to memorize the buttons on a gamepad, but after a while you get used to that... but as I've said, that style would not be perfect for all games. It only works as well as it does there because of how well designed the game is. Monkey Island 4 worked almost that same way and didn't really get any game or immersion bounce from it, I'd say.
Quote:No, it doesn't. There are some good humorous comic-inspired games I've played, but no serious ones.
You're probably right that serious comic book stuff doesn't get into games much. The closest thing I can think of is Max Payne, and that really isn't the same...
Quote:The story isn't that interesting.
I didn't say it would be a great fantasy book remembered among the greats of the genre, you know...
Quote:Of course, as I've already stated Kojima himself was heavily influenced by the books of Kobo Abe (in particular the novel "Kangaroo Notebook"). Anything, from books, movies, nature, and of course life itself can heavily influence any artistic venture. That wasn't my point. My point was that movies can actually be put into games and blended with the gameplay in a way that books cannot.
But in doing so you certainly made it sound like books counted for far, far less... you say in another response that you can't be responsible for my imagination, but you need to go read your posts. You say things in such clear terms that it makes it really hard to imagine anything less than very strong statements... and then here you are trying to go back on them somewhat and saying that you actually meant a much less ardent reading of your statements. So why not say things that way from the start? Oh wait, right, this is OB1 we're talking about... never mind...
Quote:You've obviously never played any of the MGS games for very long, or at the very least failed to understand them. Even if you skipped all of the cut scenes in MGS2, for example, the most significant themes and ideas that Hideo Kojima wanted to get across are realized. To explain any further would completely spoil the game for you, but believe me when I say that the game is not just in the cinemas. This is not Xenosaga, where the cinemas were made in a way that the entire story could be understood even if there was no gameplay. No, the gameplay of MGS2 is vital to the story. The same goes for MGS1, but not as much as MGS2.
As I've said before, I got about halfway through MGS2. I liked it that far. If I saw the PC version of MGS2 cheap somewhere I'd probably get it. And MGS: Twin Snakes for Cube is on my list and I'll probably get it sometime. But you cannot say that that is the future of gaming. As is obvious, games are about interactivity. Watching for two thirds of your time and doing for the other third do not encourage much interactivity. So no matter how good the story and how well it is told, MGS is not the future of gaming simply because it does not involve the player, which should be the point of gaming. This is one thing where PC RPGs can be at their best... giving the player input and a true voice in the game, or telling a story so well that the player feels like they have that voice in the game. Is it always that great? Certainly not. But at least they try in many cases.