Turn-based or hybrid?

[OB1]

Boy, Tycho sure hates good RPGs. For some reason or another he absolutely despises non-shitty RPG combat systems, i.e. anything that's not turn-based. Stuff like Star Ocean, Tales of Symphonia, Final Fantasy XII... read it for yourself:

Final Fantasy casts a shadow so large that it envelops the entire genre, which is well known. Nobody does Final Fantasy better - a truism that now includes Square-Enix itself apparently, as with their XII iteration they've shrugged off the iconic turn-based combat and gone with one of these Goddamn real-time hybrids that so appeals to a game reviewer's keen sense of novelty. This is part of a larger discussion that I have with Gabriel the Elder, and I guess now you can have it, too.

The other half of the conversation has to do with these Goddamn hybrid action systems that have come into phase in role-playing games. Tales of Symphonia is one of the worst games I've played in recent memory. Star Ocean is a joyless, grating exercise I could recommend only as penance for some grievous moral miscalculation. Certainly, their stories are caricatures of cliches based on a half-understood mishmash of Western and Eastern folklore, but I have to be honest with you when I say that applies to virtually all content Japan produces. I can't claim ignorance of it at this point, and honestly the surreal experience of having my own culture digested and projected back into my cornea is one of the reasons I seek the genre out. But both of them have different takes on this action/RPG hybrid that has bum-rushed the genre, and I'm glad that technology allows us to do things like this, but I have to tell you that I don't see it as a substantial improvement. I'm quick on the draw and I can push a button in sequence with the best of them. But there is something natural and sensible and universal about a turn-based system that allows for absolute, explicit position, clear delineation, and genuine decision making. Maybe that seems quaint to you, but dividing the sequence of play into turns has a validity that isn't diminished by advancing technology.

Wow, such strong words. I don't often disagree with Tycho but in this case I couldn't disagree more.

Discuss.

[Great Rumbler]

Couldn't disagree more. The battles system in Star Ocean [The second one anyway, I haven't put much time into the third] one of the best aspects of the game. The real-time, quasi-3D battles system was a lot of fun and gave the game a must faster pace. In traditional RPGs a major battle could take 30+ minutes while in Star Ocean it could take about half that amount of time. Not to say that I totally hate turned-based battle systems, far from it. They both have pros and cons. I'll wait till I've put some extensive time into ToS and SO3 before I make any futher decisions.

[OB1]

I like turn-based combat in limited doses. I've never played a turn-based RPG with the right amount of battles. They're always too long, too frequent. Always.

[A Black Falcon]

Turn-based or real-time, what needs to go is basing it all on menus... FF XII looks like it is doing that, or at least taking a big step towards that. It'll be a great advance for console RPGs when they realize that having a combat system that actually involves momement, range, etc. is so much better... a few games did that a little (like Skies of Arcadia and how some attacks affect areas) but without being able to move your character or position them it's purely luck based. Which is not fun.

As for this question, I don't know... what do these categories mean?

[Great Rumbler]

what needs to go is basing it all on menus...

That's pretty much what ToS and the Star Ocean games are doing. To attack all you do is press a certain button [or combination of buttons], with only items and magic needing a menu.

[A Black Falcon]

Japanese RPGs, though, don't for the most part seem to realize the facts that PC RPGs have known all along: that you can have movement in RPGs and have it be very strategic. Most of the RPGs which add movement end up more arcadish as a result... that isn't bad, but it's a different form of game from what I am talking about. Like, you have nothing in between Diablo and X-Com... without recognizing the possible existance of a Fallout. FFXII is being made by a guy who made TBSes so it's different, but for the most part... you get either Secret of Mana or Final Fantasy. Having a real-time combat system (with time or something) speeds up the combat but doesn't change its core at all...

As for Star Ocean or Tales of Symphonia, haven't played them. But it sounds like it's trying to meld a traditional system with a more arcadish one... certainly could be fun but it also proves my point.

[Great Rumbler]

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I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Private Hudson]

All this talk about placement in battle, and attacks effecting areas just makes me want to play Chrono Trigger.

Grandia 2.. there was a nice battle system.

Oh, and dogs have a heightenedsenseofcatholisism.

[OB1]

I got so sick of the battle music of Chrono Chross after a couple hundred battles.

[OB1]

Grandia II had a great battle system.

[Private Hudson]

Yeah,

[Private Hudson]

I agree.

[Great Rumbler]

I can't believe I forgot about Grandia! Yeah, it did have a good battle system. It was sort of a combination of real-time and turn-based. It worked pretty well.

[A Black Falcon]

Skies of Arcadia! Attacks have cones or specific areas of effect, sometimes coming from your character. But you can't PLACE your character, or move them yourself, so which enemies you can hit with those attacks is purely up to random chance... and that is bad.

As for moving, that was also one of the great things about the Sega CD Lunar games (sure you couldn't control their movement, but they had to move and be in range to hit opponents and you couldn't always attack with a sword on turn one! MUCH better than the normal system!). Too bad they removed it in the GBA version, it makes the game much more conventional and less interesting.

[A Black Falcon]

Tales of Symphonia is great.

[Geno]

I still have to play that.

[A Black Falcon]

A multiplayer co-op RPG! And a real RPG, not just Gauntlet or Crystal Chronicles... so rare on consoles... it's a great aspect of the game.

[Dark Jaguar]

How do you mean? In Final Fantasies 5, 6, and 9, they have a system where you assign characters to specific controllers. During battle, two players can control everyone by dividing up commands in this fasion, but it's ONLY during battles. In the field, it's still a one player game. Or, do you mean like Neverwinter?

[A Black Falcon]

Tales of Symphonia... haven't played it? It's got side-scrolling combat. You run on a plane, attack/defend with buttons, use special moves with commands (B, B+up, B+down, C-up, etc -- six of them)... and can set any of the four party members to be human-controlled. It's a little awkward because the camera always focuses on player one, but either the other players just do the best they can or target the same person player one is attacking.

In the field, yes, it's one player only, as far as I know.